Poll: USA is losing patience on Iraq

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-12-poll_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Poll: USA is losing patience on Iraq
By Susan Page, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Nearly six in 10 Americans say the United States should withdraw some or all of its troops from Iraq, a new Gallup Poll finds, the most downbeat view of the war since it began in 2003.

Patience for the war has dropped sharply as optimism about the Iraqi elections in January has ebbed and violence against U.S. troops hasn't abated. For the first time, a majority would be "upset" if President Bush sent more troops. A new low, 36%, say troop levels should be maintained or increased.

The souring of public opinion presents challenges for the president, who has vowed to stay the course until democracy is established and Iraqi forces can ensure security. He hasn't suggested sending more U.S. troops.

"We have reached a tipping point," says Ronald Spector, a military historian at George Washington University. "Even some of those who thought it was a great idea to get rid of Saddam (Hussein) are saying, 'I want our troops home.' "

<</SNIP>>

[deadparrot]

1. Well, $^%#,

Like many DUers, I coulda told them that 2+ years and 1700+ dead soldiers ago.

[yorkiemommie1]

13. boggles the mind, doesn't it ?

my daughter was telling her friends at work, " Everything my mother said was going to happen, happened ". I got into a long debate w/ one of her chickenhawk friends about this war and I wish I'd saved my email to him. The only thing I didn't say was going to happen was Abu Ghraib, but who knew we could sink that low?

we all knew. we all said it. we were called traitors.

[Iowa]

25. Yep, we were called traitors...

In my tiny town of about 6,000 we held an anti-war protest on the steps of the county courthouse. This was about a month or so before "shock and awe". The protest was advertised in the local paper via letters to the editor.

A local fundie preacher saw this and was outraged. He organized a counter protest to be held two blocks away at the same time; he said he'd be there alone, if need be, to pray for the troops and blah, blah. He viciously attacked the organizer of the protest (a nice young man with two little kids who was great high school teacher).

On the day of the two protests my wife and I went to the courthouse. Only 15 or 20 showed up. The preacher drew well over a thousand at his counter-rally! We had people driving by and shouting insults. We caught a tiny glimpse of what Nazi Germany must have been like in the very early days.

The teacher/organizer lost his job a short time later over some phony charge. The preacher continues to be a demagogue, and I have made it my mission in life to make sure everyone knows it.

Anyone who took a stand against this war at the beginning will never need to ask themselves whether they will have the balls to resist a mob and do the right thing. DU is made up of those who did the right thing - when it wasn't easy. It's a good feeling, especially now that the world knows the war was based on deliberate lies. All the chicken-hawks (like the ones who attended the counter-rally in my town) are gutless, weak, cowards. Pretty soon we'll be seeing tons of them expressing their opposition to the war. Screw every one of them!

[Barkley]

35. I am very proud of you Iowa!

Wow that took lots of guts. Someone should write a book on this stuff.
"The Peoples' History of the Iraq War"

[Iowa]

76. Thanks Barkley!

[IowaGuy]

91. Sounds kind of like you're from a small town or

northwestern Iowa....I'm from the big D so people with like minds such as ours are more prevalent...my hat is off to you, for standin' tall, this is the courage America was made of. I wonder sometimes if we still have enough of it. It seems so much anymore we, as a nation, have substituted bluster and swagger for courage and integrity and wisdom.

[Iowa]

94. Hi IowaGuy...

You got that right - a lot of bluster and swagger.

I lived in Des Moines for a couple of years back in the mid 70s. My wife and I were just getting started and made just enough to get by. For awhile we lived a few blocks south of Drake in a tiny 2nd floor apartment in an old house. We had no bed - slept in sleeping bags on the floor. Ah, the good old days!

[IowaGuy]

95. Yeah, back in the mid 70's I lived in Dog town - same story...

lived on the north side of it, up by sorority row in an old house...no money, but sure got a lot of life experience in those days....good times...a lot of crazed nights @ Mothers...

[pokercat999]

39. We should never, never forget the pols who supported the

war, especially the dinos! They were wrong and many knew it (i suspect) and didn't have the guts to say so.

[saigon68]

45. We told them It would Be IRAQ-NAM

I also said there were a lot of Hoodlum Troops who would commit WAR CRIMES.

I was called all kinds of names by the DINOS here.

These thugs like Cabal leader Myers have now killed 125,000 Iraqi women, children and old men for the Oil Companies and Halliburton.

[anarchy1999]

61. Welcome to DU and thank you for your testimony and action.

However, let us all be humble and not say "screw them all". It is a feeling to be embraced, but we can and will be far more effective if we are not arrogant.

We knew, just no one would listen.

My right-wing, ultra Christian mother-in-law, confessed to me in a whisper just two weeks ago that she is not happy with Bush, INC. And this is coming during a visit to the oldest golf community in the nation, hosting the Open this week.

The worm is turning.

[Iowa]

75. Oh thank you so much for the sage advice!

Just what I was hoping for - some eager-beaver who wants to make excuses for fundie preacher-Bushite-demagogue types. Sorry, but I'll have to pass on your advice.

So I'll say it again - SCREW THEM ALL!

I will not make excuses for people who support death and destruction, just because it is popular.

I will not give a pass to people who blindly follow the demagogue of the day.

I won't make excuses for chicken-hawks who participate in a mob.

I won't be supportive of people who try to purge the public school system of quality teachers - people who arranged to fire a nice young teacher with two small children, just because he dared to protest the Bush war.

And when these same bums now start coming out against the war - just because the tide is turning against them - I say "screw them all".

"It's a feeling to be embraced" you say...
"Let us all be humble" you say...

What a load of crap! That type of hand-holding, excuse making, wimpdom just isn't my style. The world is full of people who cringe whenever someone calls a spade a spade; who shield the most powerful against a full frontal attack by undermining those who speak bluntly against them. I'm sick of your type getting in the way. So the next time you have some condescending chastisement to put forth about being "humble", you might want to ask if the recipient of your unsolicited advice gives a rip about what you think they should or shouldn't think or do.

[Lilith Velkor]

78. Sounds like you done lost patience on Iraq

I sympathize. I lost too damn many friends after Iraq 1.0 to have any patience with those who supported a sequel.

[oblivious]

93. Damn Iowa! I hear ya! Let 'er rip! Screw 'em all!

If the war had gone well not one of them would be turning.

[coalition_unwilling]

69. Hear, hear. Brings to mind Erasmus' dictum:

"Dulce bellum inexpertis" ("How sweet war is to those who haven't experienced it.")

[0007]

73. Welcome home!

We gotta keep after 'em, some days are tougher than others and some are just plain disappointing. But the hard work is starting to pay off, big time.

[deadparrot]

77. Good for you!

I'm also from a conservative area, and one of a very select group to oppose this occupation from the beginning.

My heart breaks every time I hear that an Iraqi or an American soldier has died, but I will never have to live with the knowledge that I supported the actions that led to their deaths.

[Lochloosa]

31. "We all knew, We all said it, We were called TRAITORS"

Now that would make a good bumper sticker.

[wtmusic]

2. Waah. I thought they weren't going to kill us back. nt

[leftchick]

36. exactly

ameriKa is full of morans thinking like that. unfuckingbelievable.
:banghead:

[Pirate Smile]

3. Here are a couple of interesting points in the article:

"The pattern of public opinion on Iraq — strong support for the first two years that then erodes — is reminiscent of the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, he says."

and

"In the Gallup Poll, 56% say the Iraq war wasn't "worth it," essentially matching the high-water mark of 57% a month ago.

• Of those who say the war wasn't worth it, the top reasons cited are fraudulent claims and no weapons of mass destruction found; the number of people killed and wounded; and the belief that Iraq posed no threat to the United States.

• Of the 42% who say the war was worth it, the top reasons cited are the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, the need to stop terrorism and a desire to end the oppression of the Iraqi people."

[Career Prole]

5. "top reasons cited are the Sept. 11 attacks"

"Of the 42% who say the war was worth it, the top reasons cited are the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, the need to stop terrorism and a desire to end the oppression of the Iraqi people."

September 11th? To stop terrorism? Oh, you insufferable fucking idiots!

[Borgnine]

29. Hahaha.

"Insufferable fucking idiots" is the best description I've heard given to these people.

[soup]

48. Yep.

Nothing to add, just want to take the opportunity to say 'insufferable fucking idiots'.

The 'Power of Pride' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'my flag's bigger than yours' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'let's roll' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'road rage from my Attack Iraq? NO bumper sticker' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'cakewalk' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'WMDWMDWMD repeating' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'Remember 9/11' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'freedom fries' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'for us or against us' insufferable fucking idiots.

Ok, I'll quit for now. Doesn't solve anything, but it sure feels good to say it.

[tnlefty]

54. How about The 'he's a fine christian man' insufferable fucking

idiots?

The 'Boycott France' insufferable fucking idiots.
The 'better to fight them over there than over here' insufferable fucking idiots.

[pissed_American]

58. You forgot one

The 'My God can beat up your God' insufferable fucking idiots.

[Lilith Velkor]

79. Only a Sith thinks in absolutes.

Or an insufferable fucking idiot.

Hey, yer right. It does feel good to say it. Kinda rolls off the keyboard.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

60. "End the oppression of the Iraqi people"

I'd say the typical Iraqi had better odds of not suffering oppression under Saddam. It would have taken him 30 years to kill and torture as many Iraqis as George W. Fuck in 2.

[Cohors]

80. Reciprocity.

I feel the need to disclaim this, since I know you are not going to like what I am about to say. On most social issues, I am quite democratic. So I feel that I am actually posting this in the right place, though you may feel from what I say that I am a 'red-stater'. Regardless of your politics, the truth is always the most important piece.

You accuse the 42% of being "insufferable ####### idiots" for finding a link between Iraq and the attacks on September 11th. While Saddam Hussein, and more broadly, Iraq as a nation did not support the attacks, train or harbor Al-Qaeda, or in any way actively enable the attacks, stopping here and going no further in analyzing the situation is intellectually dishonest.

Osama Bin Laden has categorically stated on several occasions two major casus belli against the United States. 1. Monetary and Military support of the nation of Israel. While this has something to do with Iraq indirectly, and directly with the balance of power and subsequent political and economic stability of the Middle East (With regards to for the most part, oil trade), it's not the piece we need to look at here. 2. The presence of US troops, defiling the 'Holy Land' in Saudi Arabia. This second point is absolutely critical in understanding Iraq's true role in September 11th.

Iraq has been impoverished under most of Saddam's rule. He has put far more money and effort into his military than the nation could economically support. Saddam himself was expansionist, with dreams of a Pax Arabia under his personal rule. Seeking a return on the investment he made in his military brought about the Iraq-Iran war. I'll not recap the events of the war, suffice to say when it ended, Iraq was even more desperate for income, rebuilding a badly mauled military, and having not gained control of the Abadan oil fields. So it turned to lightly defended Kuwait. Using the same ploy of a border dispute (claiming Kuwait was actually a province of Iraq, much as China claims Taiwan), and having felt out the US ambassador and not finding any hint the US would interfere, it invaded.

Naturally, even though the US does NOT in fact get much oil from the Middle East, a fact easily discoverable by a 10 year old with Google and the CIA world factbook (assuming you can lend enough credibility to the CIA to trust it on who buys oil where), the US does have extreme interest in a stable oil market. So does everyone else. Hence the easily assembled coalition that pushed Iraq back out of Kuwait in '91. Even though we get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, South America, and Africa, shutting off the wells in the Middle East would have catastrophic effects on our economy as the entire world oil market tanks.

So, we stationed troops in our 'allies' of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, two nations that had much to fear from an expansionist Saddam/Iraq. As long as Saddam remained in power, Saudi Arabia remeained under the shadow of threat and the entire world oil market in danger. So our troops stayed through a 12 year stalemate that even successful weapons inspections could not resolve. The core issue was never truly WMD in Iraq. It was Saddam's intentions for his military machine. His aggressive intentions towards other M.E. nations. Nations which we had a strong, if indirect, economic interest in.

I submit that the war in Iraq was a viable disengagement plan to get our troops out of politically sensitive locations such as Saudi Arabia. A goal that has been achieved. Now we have immediate fallout to deal with IN Iraq itself, but Iraq is no longer expansionist. Our bases have for the most part been dismantled and removed from Saudi Arabia.

I also submit that the removal of the upper echelons of Saddam's Baathist party was the only way to remove this threat, and that when Clinton signed into law that the official policy of the United States was regime change in Iraq, he lacked the political will of the people to make it reality. 9/11 has changed THAT, because Saddam's expansionist nature indirectly yet significantly contributed to Osama's targeting of the US.

SO, I ask a question, in all honesty... Are the 42% "Insufferable ####### idiots" or did you just fail to find the obvious link between an expansionist Iraq, our continued military presence in Saudi Arabia, and Osama's offense at such 'defilement' of holy land?

[Career Prole]

83. Damn! You just wasted eight paragraphs of bullshit.

You probably could have just skipped to the question in the ninth paragraph to which I would stiil reply yes, they are insufferable fucking idiots.

"The core issue was never truly WMD in Iraq..."

Then the president lied in order to get his invasion and they didn't care? They're still insufferable fucking idiots.

"I submit that the war in Iraq was a viable disengagement plan to get our troops out of politically sensitive locations such as Saudi Arabia. A goal that has been achieved. Now we have immediate fallout to deal with IN Iraq itself, but Iraq is no longer expansionist. Our bases have for the most part been dismantled and removed from Saudi Arabia."

Think real hard and see if you can come up with another way to get those troops out of Saudi Arabia without invading Iraq.
Call it the "just pack up and go" method.
What? The government would lose face? There are more important things than the self-esteem of a bunch of fucking chickenhawks.

"Saddam's expansionist nature indirectly yet significantly contributed to Osama's targeting of the US."

We didn't require bases in Saudi Arabia to protect them from Hussein. I believe I've heard enough. I smell another insufferable fucking idiot.

[Cohors]

85. 42%

Think real hard and see if you can come up with another way to get those troops out of Saudi Arabia without invading Iraq.
Call it the "just pack up and go" method.
What? The government would lose face? There are more important things than the self-esteem of a bunch of fucking chickenhawks.

I never said that. That's not the case. Silly that you would even imply it. Our presence in Saudi Arabia extended right through the Clinton administration. Who's face was he saving?

Walking away doesn't risk reputations. It risks Iraq militarily taking Kuwait again or Saudi Arabia. Just in the time it takes to transition oil production, if you take SA out of the oil market, which actually primarily serves Europe, what happens to prices everywhere? Skyrocket. Europe MUST have energy too, and they would tap suppliers, OUR suppliers, that have no capacity to meet the demand. Iraq parked tanks along the Kuwati/SA border. It's pretty clear he was planning on taking it as well. SA was no distant bystander. Kuwait's production could be absorbed by other nations. Kuwait AND SA at the same time? Good luck. Have fun getting to work in THAT scenario.

Then if you allow a reasonable timeperiod for Iraq to get a handle on its newly claimed oil, you have an Iraq with the money to rebuild it's military, and take another crack at Iran, or Jordan, Turkey, etc. Why allow that?

Even taking into account the current situation, not intentions, or what transpired 10 years ago, the Middle East as a whole is MORE stable NOW, than it was with Saddam in power. Even with Iran seeking nuclear weapons, has Iran shown expansionist tendencies? Did they push deep into Iraq in the Iraq-Iran war when the tides turned? No they didn't.

So by all means. Hit me with a plausible disengagement plan for the middle east that gets our troops out of SA, so we don't cause undue ire from people like Osama Bin Laden for our presence in his holy land, and yet not have to come back and liberate more countries the next time Saddam decides to try taking over a country?

And truthfully, when you say "No link between saddam and September 11th" did you even put two and two together here? That Saddam was responsible for our presence in SA, and that presence gave Osama a new pet cause when he was done with Russia in Afghanistan?

[Career Prole]

87. So we are tasked with protecting Europe's oil supply? Why?

"Walking away doesn't risk reputations. It risks Iraq militarily taking Kuwait again or Saudi Arabia. Just in the time it takes to transition oil production, if you take SA out of the oil market, which actually primarily serves Europe, what happens to prices everywhere? Skyrocket. Europe MUST have energy too, and they would tap suppliers, OUR suppliers, that have no capacity to meet the demand."

<snip>

So by all means. Hit me with a plausible disengagement plan for the middle east that gets our troops out of SA, so we don't cause undue ire from people like Osama Bin Laden for our presence in his holy land, and yet not have to come back and liberate more countries the next time Saddam decides to try taking over a country?


It has been demonstrated convincingly (and quite recently) that Iraq was in no shape to attack anyone. For many of us the demonstration wasn't necessary.

Colin Powell himself said whatever threat Iraq once presented was contained.

That said, why wouldn't Europe protect their own oil, if the threat was as real as you believe?

Because they didn't believe Iraq was a threat to their oil supply.

[slamthecrank]

88. "Seriously"?

You must be joking.

That was, quite possibly, two of the most absurd posts I've ever read - anywhere. Your theory lacks so many crucial historical points that it makes me dizzy to think of 'where to start'. First, though - read a history book, or five, regarding the past decade in the middle east.

Then, come back to us, and we will have a civil discourse on your theories of Saddam and Osama.

"Seriously".

[cliss]

96. Cohors, stick around.

Keep reading news articles here at the DU. Read the posts underneath. You'll find a lot of information here.

:smoke:

[Jack Rabbit]

6. Interesting

Of the 42% who say the war was worth it, the top reasons cited are the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States . . .

With which Iraq played no part

the need to stop terrorism . . .

Saddam had no working relationship with al Qaida

and a desire to end the oppression of the Iraqi people."

Which continues under colonial occupation.

It's also interesting that the 42% who, based on misinformation, still think the war was worthwhile mirrors the 43% in other polls who still approve of the job done by the disassembler-in-chief.

[DrDebug]

38. Incredible. 42% still believes that Iraq had something to do with 9/11

How dumb can they be. The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me...

[cliss]

63. I think they know.....

just like lemmings know that cliff is approaching, but they keep running anyway.

About 2 years ago, the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 came out. There was a little bit of talk at the office about people going to see it. I was standing by a group of people, talking about the movie.

Suddenly, one of the managers came waddling up. He's a big fundie, and I do mean big. He wanted to join in the conversation. When he heard we were talking about Michael Moore, he quickly backed away. There was a look of fear on his face.

As he was leaving, I asked him if he was going to see the movie. "No", he said, as he swatted my comment away like a fly.

They're AFRAID because of the implications. Thinking is bad to them. It's much better to

run.

[slamthecrank]

89. it's scary

I had almost same experience where I work. Even the "swatting the question like a fly" part.

It's so easy to run.

[oblivious]

4. "36% want troop levels maintained or increased."

That's a lot of people who should be in line to sign up. I don't see why you would need a draft.:sarcasm:

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Like the Frat Boy, they probably think they're too good to serve

If they are of draft age, they have too valuable a future as the leaders of tomorrow who will start the next wave of unnecessary and immoral wars with subterfuge and equivocation. Is that what they teach at Yale?

Wars must be fought by the plebeians, not the patricians.

These people think the purpose of war is make the rich richer and the poor dead.

[yorkiemommie1]

14. one Bushie grandma I know said to me ...

'not MY grandson! '

[saigon68]

46. Its the poor who always die

Rich guys like the CHIMPANZEE skate.

[pissed_American]

59. "Like the Frat Boy, they probably think they're too good to serve"

Or like DICKWAD Cheney, they are probably saying -"I had other priorities in the '60s than military service" - Only thing to change is the decade.

[Cha]

7. And bush, the monkey on a string, is

out trying to steal Americans' Social Security and talking Happy Talk about the war on Iraq.

[ngGale]

9. Sure nuff...

I hate it when I'm always right. Knew this before they went in, most of us did and hoped for the best.

[sharman]

10. "Desire to help the oppressed Iraqis"

The same idiots who piously give this as their reason for supporting the war are the first to scream holy hell "It's my money!" to any suggestion that our government ptu resources toward helping the unfortunate in this country.

This is the real reason these goopers support the war: they like blowing things up. Makes them feel so tough

[Frederik]

56. Exactly

Helping Iraqi people my ass. They want to see big explosions on TV, because it makes them feel big and strong being from the same country that makes those big explosions.

[adigal]

64. Excellent point!! "Only lib'rul commies want to help the poor

in this country. We'll sure help them over there, yup, and get to blow lots of things up." - Bush voter.

Sickening.

[moggie]

65. Helping oppressed people

What about the oppressed people of Uzbekistan, Zimbabwe, Sudan...? Or do these idiots only care deeply about the poor oppressed people of oil-rich countries? In that case, they could consider Saudi Arabia, a state which practices torture and imprisonment for peaceful political opposition, and which certainly did have links to 9/11.

[LynnTheDem]

11. "the top reasons cited are the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States"

ARRRRRRGH!!! STUPID PEOPLE!!!

[AndyTiedye]

26. John Stuart Mill Said it Best

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."

[ninkasi]

12. My first thought on reading this...

"Poll: USA is losing patience on Iraq "
Is that the Iraqis lost patience with our presence a long, long time ago. If people in this country are getting fed up, imagine how they must feel. Not that the neocons care, any more than they care about what we like or don't.

G.W. Bush "Who cares what you think?"

[Yavin4]

15. It Has Taken 1,700 Lives For Americans To Lose Their Patience?!!?!

How many lives is it going to take for Americans to get off their lazy asses and do something about it?

[primavera]

41. 100,000+ lost Iraqi lives haven't impressed anyone either

Mass murder of a genocidal scale and it hasn't so much as raised an eyebrow... sigh.

[MountainLaurel]

67. But those are brown-skinned infidels

And their lives don't count as much. So 100,000+ Iraqis would equal one blue-eyed blonde from Topeka.

:sarcasm:

[Geo55]

16. "We have reached a tipping point,"

not quite,

One word dumass....DRAFT

[Gregorian]

17. So, some Americans are finally waking up?

This is only the biggest heist in the history of mankind. And the robbers are using OUR GUNS. Why is it so hard to see that? Do we have to be occupied here, before Americans can have sympathy for other beings?
And on that note, I bid the world goodnight. May tomorrow bring down the Bush administration...

[Gabi Hayes]

18. You KNOW what poll numbers like this mean, don't you?

batten down the hatches

[Straight Shooter]

19. The former believers are losing patience because it wasn't a "cakewalk"

I'll bet a lot of them still think bush didn't lie, they're still thinking somehow something went wrong but it isn't his fault.

They're just souring on the war because it wasn't easy like Little Boots and his cohorts said it would be. They're finding out, lo and behold, that war is a nightmare, that it's hard to extricate yourself from a trap of your own making.

Such people have my everlasting contempt.

[expatriot]

22. the former believers are aiding and abetting the enemy!

Don't they know that responding that you want our troops to be withdrawn from Iraq to poll questions by pollsters is only encouraging our enemies!!! :sarcasm:

[Frederik]

57. You know what people in Germany said, when

they started hearing rumors about the bad things the Gestapo was doing? "If only the Führer knew about this!"

[architect359]

20. OK so now what?

We go home and turn our backs on what we've done? Oh, sorry for invading and killing all those people? No hard feelings huh? Isn't it great that Saddam and his regime is gone? No more terrorists will come out of Iraq now and try to hurt as many Americans (or Westerners) as they can right?

I wonder if anyone will begin to plan and do the real work of rebuilding now? Bring the troops home - end the occupation. Tipping point? Yeah - I hope that the tipping point is about us facing our god awful responsibilies. I hope that enough people will now realize that this administration has committed crimes against humanity by making war and invading another country on lies and misinformation. I hope that we realize that we need to make amends for what we have permitted our leaders to commit in our name. That's the real tipping point.

[tavalon]

27. Rebuild?

That's hard work!

Not a chance. :argh:

[architect359]

43. I know, I know

"That's hard work!

Not a chance."

That's what's frustrating. This admin will try its damnedest to wash its hands on the whole affair - and later, we bemoan the fact that the rest of the world has no respect for us.

"What goes around, comes around".

[expatriot]

21. It's all the media's fault!!! We'd have won by now if they had been

reporting the good news!

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Ronald Spector wrote a great book called "After Tet"

Serious fella.

[MeDeMax]

24. bring the troops home

please.

[dbt]

28. Wonder what the REAL numbers look like.

USA Today and Gallup. THERE's a couple of reliable sources!

[Borgnine]

30. Sigh.

Does society ever learn anything from history, or are we always doomed to keep making the same mistakes, only to realize they're mistakes, and then forget them all again decades later?

[wellst0nev0ter]

32. "56% Of Americans Are Objectively Pro-Saddam"

Now which party should be taking the lead on this new public development? Republicans can't change their shorts fast enough when they think about the prospect of answering for their support for an unpopular war.

[are_we_united_yet]

33. Was it Carly Simon or Linda Rondstat that sang

"Well its too late baby yeah its too late..."

[Bridget Burke]

34. Carole King wrote the song...

Others may have covered it.

[Barkley]

37. Did Hillary call for more troops to be sent to Iraq?

Are any of the Dems paying attention to this poll?

[primavera]

42. Only the wingnut fundies' views need to be considered

Hillary can count on the rest of us following her along like so many sheep no matter how far to the right she drifts. What else are we going to do? Vote for Nader?

[second edition]

40. What happened? The ink stained finger euphoria wear off?

The media finally doing its job without putting as much spin on what it reports? Iraq has been a mess for a long time now. We all knew, and JOHN KERRY told everybody who would listen that, Bush and his fellow Neocons did not have a plan to win the peace. No post war planning and no exit strategy. They even dismissed the need for more troops on the ground. Foolish Bush supporters who really thought he had all the answers and now discover, many lives later, that this isn't working out because we weren't careful in our planning.

[catmandu57]

44. This has me talking to myself

Sure, now people are starting to think that maybe this wasn't such a good idea. After two years, after death on a massive scale, after one country laid waste, and another besmirched and brought low in world opinion.

Now, well maybe it wasn't such a good idea, no wmds, no mass graves except those caused by us, no terrorist connection, no sixty cent per gallon gasoline.

Just death, destruction, and hardship for as long as anyone can see.

[Coventina]

47. Well that's just f-ing great

The stupidity of the sheeple never ceases to amaze me.

They're "losing patience"?

Um, why the fuck aren't they asking WHY ARE WE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?!?!

[SlipperySlope]

49. You beat me to it.

I was going to post the same thing.

The nation needs to find a way to bring the troops home, keep them safe in the meanwhile, and try to leave Iraq in the best shape we can.

Sad, sad, sad.

[tiedye]

50. Afterdowningstreet.com Too!

This is fantastic news. You know why? I spoke with Steven Kull of PIPA.org, an organization that measures public opinion regarding American public policies about 6 months ago regarding public perception on the war. And in 2003 when we attacked Iraq they found huge differences in the perceived reality of Bush versus Kerry "supporters". Huuuuge effect on knowledge of known facts (like have we FOUND WMDs, an Iraq-Queda connection) based on the source of information of the responders. FOX viewers were significantly misinformed compared to print readers and NPR listeners. I bet Amy Goodman listeners got 100% correct, but they didn't measure for that.

In December of 2005, when I discussed this 2004 study with Dr. Kull, he mentioned the depressing fact that inspite of these promisuing trends in perception and knowledge of inportant, relevant facts regarding our war in Iraq and the subsequent occupation, only 25% of US people support withdrawal of troops. Now, this USA today article reports that the conservative polling outlet, Gallup shows 60% of Americans should withdraw all or some of the 140K Us troops managing Iraq's security.

Of course this is after the Downing street minutes revelation in which we now KNOW that the President started the war before Congressional approval. Shame on you mister president.

These types of polls done by PIPA and Gallop are eessential in order to measure the knowledge base of our society. Without this kind of feedback, we are not able to assess the accuracy of our news and information. That is, we need to be able to separate the noise from the signals.

I look forward to more discussions about these telling statistics.

[AzDar]

51. You know, during the campaign last year, when John Kerry was asked

"Knowing what you know today about Iraq (no WMDS found), would you still have voted to go to War?" (paraphrasing slightly). When he said he STILL would have voted to go to War, it literally took my breath away. I never felt the same about him again.
I've always wondered why he answered that way..and I think any politician who voted for or led the cheering section for this War should be called to account for their support, as a condition for remaining an elected official representing the best interest of Americans!

[coalition_unwilling]

70. IMHO, Kerry deserved to lose for that stultifyingly stupid comment

I voted for him, but with a very heavy heart after my wife talked me into not voting for the Socialist candidate.

[Knight of Ni]

72. Something got lost in translation somewhere....

I only heard part of Kerry's response directly, and heard none of the original question, but I always thought something didn't seem kosher in how it was reported.

Point#1 to remember was that the 2002 vote WASN'T to go to war, but to give the President the power to declare war if he deemed it necessary. Of course, because Mr. Cuckoo Bananas and his chickenhawk neocon sidekicks were running the executive branch, it was in effect the same thing as voting to go to war, but technically, it still wasn't.

Kerry's live response (what I heard of it anyway) indicated that he was only endorsing granting a president that war power, apparently as a show of solidarity on the government's part, and not necessarily the war itself. (And for the record, I thought even THAT response was wrong because you can't assume a reasonable person like a President Kerry, a President Clark, a President Dean, or even a President McCain is always going to be occupying the Oval Office, so giving the President those war powers
opens the door to future abuse. Since this abuse ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN REAL LIFE JUST 1 1/2 YEARS PRIOR, this is proof that Kerry's response was just plain incorrect.)

Did Kerry actually say elsewhere that he would have pursued the war campaign itself knowing what he knows now, or was it misreported by the media and taken out of context? Because Lord knows the media has NEVER twisted a Democrat's words around to make him or her look bad. :sarcasm:

[PATRICK]

52. DLC won't connect this

basic uncontrollable reaction to the suppression of the DSM as a more direct target of people's focus on the war's "problems". So people slipping outside the control of the media as they did with support of Clinton versus the impeachers are allowed only a gut feeling- NO FACTS, NO REASONS, NO ACCOUNTABLE HEADS TO ROLL. The people must be herded in a vacuum all the time and when they stampede they must do so in ignorance.

The "some" who backed the lies need to revisit the truth NOT the outcomes and fantasies of the unacknowledged war crime. No one of course is leading this inevitable disaffection, just shuffling it off as long as possible.

[saigon68]

53. The DINOS who lead the DLC are asleep in their heated Water Beds

This morning

[donkeyotay]

55. Isn't that how we got there in the first place?

"Losing patience." Didn't the Liar-in-Chief use that very phrase? He was losing patience with Saddam Hussein. He had to have his war NOW. He had to THROW OUT THE UN WEAPONS INSPECTORS. He had to invade before summer, before the window of opportunity closed. Before the mushroom clouds!

But to all you thinking Americans who protested and were threatened and abused, take heart! All those deluded people are now going to say they are sorry. They are sorry, but they believed their president and their president lied. Now they're going to work to see to it that those responsible for this are held accountable. They're going to work to see to it that television becomes a news source instead of GOP propaganda. They're re-registering Independent right now, and they're telling the Republican party they won't be making donations. And they're calling the representatives they supported and demanding actual investigations.

These people - the ones that have changed their minds - are going to work now to rectify what they've done.

Sure they are.

[Pystoff]

62. Tide turning

When this debacle is over and the people that called those of us that didn't want this to begin with how will we react? Do these people deserve their noses rubbed in the piss on the carpet? The loudest do for sure the Bush apologists in the media should be attacked and hounded out of the corporate media. The corporations that backed this with their media control like GE and Time Warner should suffer through boycott. A remeberance of what companies profited and were protected by BushCo like Halliburton and Bechtel should be punished by the voters reminding the Democrats to exclude those companies from any government contratcs lest they lose political office. Payback is what should rule the day for those that abused the public some willingly and the rest against their will. But we have to compile and stand together and follow through on this.

[ElectroPrincess]

66. DAMN!

I guess those hugs, kisses, flower bouquets and chocolates are not coming any time soon? :sarcasm:

Cake walk?!? Who's the bastard who said that shit? I think he resides (home base) at that scuzzy propaganda pit known as Fox Cable News Channel?

[Democracy White]

68. It's about time!

Are people starting to wake up?

I wish I could say "I told you so" but that would seem like bad taste.

Dee

[LibDemAlways]

71. I remember in the early days of this

disaster some rah rah types put yellow ribbons everywhere near where I live in Southern CA - naive misguided souls who actually believed that we were going to go in there, "liberate" the Iraqi people, be greeted with flowers and the key to the city of Baghdad, and then the troops would return home to ticker tape parades and a grateful nation.

A couple of months later those ribbons started looking pretty tattered.

Now there's a remnant or two along with 1700 dead Americans, thousands more wounded or permanently disabled, hundreds of thousands of dead and injured Iraqis, and daily death and carnage with no end in sight.

I told anyone who'd listen two years ago that this was a colossal mistake. This is one instance where I hate to have been right.

[warrens]

74. Bring the boys home and send in Free Republic

And hand each a matchbox to ship his or her remains home in.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

92. Didn't you hear? They've closed down freeperville...

all the freepers are lined up at the recruiting office waiting to enlist for good old george and rummy...

[Mistahkleeen]

81. I know it's time to go

But what happens (in Iraq)once we leave. I also want to know why only 6 in 10 want us out. What are the other 4, crack heads?

[Chauga]

82. "Losing" patience? Understatement of the year.

[progressoid]

84. Sorry to break this to ya Amuricans, but we aren't leaving for a long time

Regardless of your regrets or lagging optimism, the sad truth is that we in this for the long haul. There is no easy out now.

[w8liftinglady]

97. You're right,I'm afraid

My kid is in Baghdad for the second time(this time for a year),and he's already told me"don't hold your breath"..regarding his discharge.

[ecoalex]

86. Biden seems Gung Ho

he's all good for a protracted occupation.

We need a united message, we seem scattered with hawk Biden crowing.

Face it Biden, it's over THE TROOPS COME HOME NOW !

[oblivious]

90. I would love to hear a reporter ask him "If the war's important enough ...

...to send young Americans to their death, why don't you go too?

The war is surely more important than anything you are doing here.

Or are you the type of man who crows for war as long as someone else does the fighting?"

What would he answer?