Court Lets Law Graduate Sue George Mason Univ. Over F

[Chauga]

By Jerry Markon
Washington Post
Wednesday, June 15, 2005


When Carin Constantine flunked constitutional law after suffering a migraine during the final exam, she did what came naturally. She sued the professor. And the dean. And George Mason University.

-snip-

Constantine, 36, who has wanted to be a lawyer since junior high school, suffers from intractable migraine syndrome -- headaches so severe, she says, that they nearly blind her. She accused the university of refusing for months to let her retake the exam, then deliberately flunking her after she complained in an article she wrote for the law school newspaper.

Last year, a federal judge in Alexandria threw out Constantine's exercise in the real-life practice of law. But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Richmond decided in her favor Monday, saying Constantine met the requirements to sue under the Americans With Disabilities Act. The appeals court sent her case back to the district court for trial.

A three-judge panel did not rule on Constantine's claim but said that if indeed administrators had denied her a reexamination and a hearing, given her only three days' notice when they allowed her to retake the exam and determined her failing grade in advance, "such conduct would tend to chill a reasonable person's exercise of First Amendment rights." The court acknowledged it was viewing the lawsuit in the light "most favorable" to Constantine.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401509.html

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I got an F in Torts and it earned me an invitation to the Academic Status

Committee in order to determine whether they would allow me to stay in law school. I made my best presentation (perhaps a precursor to becoming a lawyer) to them. They let me stay and the "F" stayed too. I had to retake the course again (pass/fail) and I moved on. I earned my "F" but had a story to go with it.

[TahitiNut]

2. "then deliberately flunking her"???

So, it wasn't accidental, huh? :eyes:

I'd like to know just how many students in the history of George Mason University have been flunked other than deliberately?? How the hell else can it be done?

What the fuck is the news media doing to our language? Is the word "deliberately" now used for mere meaningless emphasis ("like really!") without any thought whatsoever given to its definition?

[Ken Burch]

80. She meant, I believe, that they gave her an unjust failing grade

in retribution for the law review article.

My understanding of law schools is that the testing process is secretive enough that you may not necessarily be told why you flunked(that is to say, where you got things wrong.)

I know that is the case with bar exams in many states.

[napi21]

3. I don't mean to be nasty, but how is she going to be a good lawyer if

she can't get through the stress of a test?

I have no idea if the school is right or wrong in this case, but it seems to me, if this student has a problem just getting through a test, how is she going to be able to function as a decent lawyer? I doesn't matter if she's a corporate or trial lawyer, there's still a lot of stress involved in all of those professions. I think this is a lost case that shouldn't have ever been brought. Hopefully, the judge will throw it out as being without merit.

[candy]

5. She sounds like the kind of lady that couldn't function at anythng!

[mikelgb]

79. no one said anything about stress

i get migranes and they are not usually caused by stress

[Evergreen Emerald]

4. One of the guys in my law school class...

...had to drop out after the first year--on doctor's orders. The stress of law school caused him to break out in hives. He was one swollen-red mass during finals.

I used to run alot. Exercise and chocolate seemed to help with the stress.

[Bozita]

6. Are migraines included in her billable hours?

Clients oughtta know.

[Ken Burch]

8. You people are totally out of line on this.

My wife suffered from intractable migraines. They put her in bed for days.

There is no cure for them. The medicines for them are expensive, and usually have lag times before they take effect.

And medical science is totally uninterested in treating migraines, even though they can incapacitate an person for long periods of time, because they don't actually kill you.

This should be compared to, say, someone not being allowed to retake an exam after suffering a heart attack or other serious health issue during the test.

I hope she wins the suit. It was utterly unfair to not allow her to retake the test under the circumstances.

And the billable hours line is a cheap shot.

[realcountrymusic]

10. I agree

Migraine headaches - if you have never had them, don't begin to dismiss them. What a snarky mood people are in today.

I hope she wins big time, on behalf of migraine sufferers everywhere.

[northzax]

12. did you read the article?

they did let her retake the test. she failed that one too (maybe she didn't get enough notice to sutdy, I don't know.) Look, I appreciate, having lived with migrane sufferers, the debilitating nature of them (the next worst thing to having a migrane must be having a roommate with a migrane)

All that said, let me play devils advocate for a minute. There is no way to verify if someone is having a migrane or not. Therefore, the situation is ripe for some abuse. Imagine (and we're dealing with lawyers here) someone who gets halfway through Con Law final and realizes she's failing. So she gets stressed out. and on comes a migrane. There is no way to verify that the stress of failing didn't bring on the attack.

By the way, this is why I think everything should be take home on the honor system, if you don't learn it, the Bar Exam will kill you anyway. Reduce the stress, and you equalise the results, and reduce the prospect of migranes knocking someone down and out.

I am a little suprised that she's still studying for the Bar two years out, maybe she earned that grade after all?

[NoKillShelterGuy]

13. So...because somebody gets migraines....

they should be excused from employment behavior that is unacceptable?

I can see it now.... "This is your Captain speaking. I'm sorry, but I'm developing a migraine, and therefore am going to take a shitload of codeine. We'll see if I'm able to land the plane later."

I predict that she will have a very short career if she decides to be a litigator. Either that, or a very sucessful career as a litigator with a "Free Continuance" pass that is used to benefit her clients. And I don't think many firms will hire her...because she's medically unable to perform.

[Ken Burch]

16. That is an invalid analogy

It would be more like "This is your Captain speaking. I'm sorry but I'm developing a debilitating migraine and in the name of passenger safety I'm turning the flight over to the copilot."

You would agree, I hope, that that captain should not face disciplinary action or be regarded as not in compliance with his or her duties because he or she didn't insist on staying at the controls
and trying to bull through(with the likely result that the plane would crash into a mountain killing all aboard.)

And there are cases all the time in the legal system in which court proceedings are delayed due to the health of the attorney.

You speak in total ignorance on the subject of migraines, my friend.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

17. OK, so when the pilot and copilot both get migraines...

who do they turn control of the plane over to?

A captain who repeatedly got migraines that interfered with his ability to pilot the plane would flunk his flight physical and be removed from flight status so quickly that it would make your head spin.

I do not know what courthouses you hang around in, but repeated continuances from docketed appearances for migraines would last a very short time, and then the judges being treated so disrespectfully in such a manner would simply refuse to grant continuances.

[Vladimir]

14. Damn straight

If the student was allright in the other classes she took, it seems that performance is not as much of an issue as an asshole professor. And you find those everywhere, which is precisely why the institution needs to have precedures in place to deal with them. And even if this is a problem that affect all of the student's work, it is nontheless unfair to suppose that it makes her unfit for this particular job - or at least any more unfit than it makes her for any kind of employment whatsoever. The migraines won't cease just because she is in a "less stressful" environment, she may just have fewer during working hours. Instead of condemning her, wouldn't it be far more human to accomodate her condition - getting other lawyers in her office to pick up the slack when she is ill, for example? It may be more convinient for her employer that she is denied the career she wishes to pursue, but its outrageous that this should be a consideration in the matter.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

18. So how many chances should she get?

She flunked it the first time, so they gave her a make-up exam. She flunked it a second time, so they gave her a third makeup exam. She flunked that too.

How many times do you have to earn an F?

Each time she misses a future court appearance, it is a big deal. The judge is left hanging. The other lawyer is left hanging. The clerk, court reporter, and a bunch of other court staff people also have their time wasted. The Plaintiff and Defendant also have their time wasted, and may have their rights trampled on by her absence.

You suggest that the other lawyers in her office pick up the slack. Does that mean that they pick up that part of her check, too? After all, they are doing her work for her.

[Vladimir]

20. She only failed it twice

the first time, she didn't sit it at all because she was having the migraines. As for her legal work, the vast majority of it won't involve being in court, even if she becomes a trial attorney. She coped well with most of her courses where reasonable adjustments had been made, which leads me to conclude that since her court appearances are a small fraction of her work as a lawyer, and since her migraines don't seem to be that frequent as to interfer with the majority of her work to this date, it is simply not an issue most of the time. In the small number of situations when this situation might arise, it should be treated as one would treat an attorney suddenly falling ill.

As for her co-workers picking up the slack - I presume they would get paid for any overtime they had to work, depending on their contract. But that should come out of the company's pocket, not hers, same as with any other employee who falls ill.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

21. She had three chances to take the test

and did not pass. She skipped the first one, and failed both of the makeup tests that the school administered.

One of the basic ideas of the ADA is that the disabled person has to be actually capable of doing the work. Going only on the facts as presented in the article, it does not appear that she is able to do that. She can not be relied upon to consistently be in the court that she is supposed to be at the time she is supposed to be there.

If you are blind, you should not be a bus driver. If you are unable to show up in court when you are supposed to be there, you should not be a trial lawyer. Ever hear of a capias?

[Vladimir]

26. Indeed, which is not the same

as failing it three times - there is a difference between failing a test and being too ill to turn up. And again, if she is so unable to do her work and cannot be relied on, why is this the only class where she had problems? It seems plusible that she was merely unlucky to have a migraine twice in a row related to this exam and an asshole of a professor. Of course, she could be taking everyone for a ride here - that's up to the courts to decide - but my first order of the day is to have sympathy with the person suffering, i.e. her.

As for the rest of it, I am simply not interested in the court appearance side of it. As the risk of boring you, trial work is a small fraction of her job, even if she chooses to be a trial attorney, and this condition does not impair her in the majority of what she has done so far. Therefore she seems to me quite able, statistically speaking, to do her work. A bus driver places lives at danger if they have a migraine which blinds them while driving, and shouldn't be doing that job. A lawyer like her may occasionally inconvinience a number of people by having a migraine. Not in the slightest bit comparable situations.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

28. Ask a judge

how he or she would feel about being "inconvenienced" and having a defendants or plaintiffs rights jeopardized because of an attorney's repeated absences. There is a mechanism in place for such situations. It is called a capias. Judges are not generally shy about using them.

[Vladimir]

30. Do they use them on an attorney who has a heart attack?

What about attorneys who suffer from asthma? Epilepsy? Diabetes? Are you really telling me that a judge in the "Home of freedom and democracy" cannot cope with an attorney falling ill? Because I somehow find that one hard to believe.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

33. If they are in the hospital because of their illness

then they are probably going to receive a continuance. I seriously doubt that a diabetic who had poor control over the illness and repeatedly missed court would be tolerated. And I know of a case where my attorney got fined for being at the birth of his son instead of in court where he was scheduled to be.

[LanternWaste]

82. Guess I should just quit my job...

Well, if this goes to trial, then someone *will* have the opportunity to ask the judge precisely that. Additionally, the judge will rule as to whether the sequence of events was the fauly of the school, the fault or her migraines or no one's fault at all.

Will be interesting to see the outcome...

Guess us Cluster and Migraine sufferers should abstain from work that involves a deadline, responsibility or other people (oops... that's every job I've ever had-- maybe I should just quit

[NoKillShelterGuy]

29. On the missed exam:

You can fail an exam by not being there. Ask anybody who has ever gotten a zero for a grade on a test that they missed without an excuse.

[Vladimir]

31. "Without an excuse" is rather the point n/t

[NoKillShelterGuy]

34. "my head hurts"

is not seen as a valid reason to miss a graduate-school level exam, is it?

If it is, a lot of people missed out in college. Did you never miss a class or test because you were hung over? Did you ever sit through class with a splitting headache because you had already used all of your cuts? I remember once trying to explain to a professor that I missed a week of class because I had a bad infection caused by "sinus squeeze" resulting from scuba diving. He was less than sympathetic.

[Vladimir]

35. So having a serious medical condition is

comparable to being hung over? Wherever will this argument take us next...

[NoKillShelterGuy]

40. If you had ever had serious migraine problems....

you would know that they are often brought on by certain identifiable stimuli. For example, I can almost guarantee that I drink two or more glasses of wine, I will have a really bad migraine for the next few days. It's not the alcohol that triggers it, since beer and hard spirits do not have the same result. Certain foods can also trigger migraines. And if a diabetic eats a half-gallon of ice cream, there will generally be a predictable result. Same deal with failure to eat resulting in low blood sugar and other diabetes related problems.

[Vladimir]

85. LOL

mon ami, my entire family suffers from migraines - and I don't mean the sort of hang-over, my-head-hurts-a-bit, headaches you clearly seem to identify them with. I mean in bed for three days solid, vomiting (possibly the worst part in some ways), can't eat, can't sleep, can't look at shit type of migraines. And while there are *some* constant stimuli, there are plenty of variable ones too. It is a condition which people cannot control all that well, even with the best will in the world - in those situations, it is incumbent on society to show some compassion and accomodate their condition, not the other way around.

[Ken Burch]

42. comparing migraines to hangovers is bullshit!

You can choose not to drink too much.

You can't choose not to have migraines.

Stop being so fucking insensitive, people.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

45. Are migraines often stress related?

If so, is putting yourself in a high stress environment not contributing to your migraine history?

[Ken Burch]

66. Actually, there is little an individual can do to lower migraine risks

watching some dietary things can help slightly, as can not living in areas where the weather is unusually variable.

But it's unfair to make this an "individual responsibility" issue.

[alarimer]

37. It is a fucking disability

Get a clue. You don't know what it is like.

[Dora]

22. Maybe she doesn't want to be a trial lawyer

You're projecting, and that's not fair.

Maybe she's not interested in making court appearances. Maybe she's studying law because she likes the research, or the writing, or the idea-having.

A person can do many things with a law degree besides appear in court. Not everyone who goes to law school takes the bar exam.

[northzax]

24. the article states

that she's been studying for the Bar in Florida. It also states that she wants to be an advocate for the disabled, and practice law.

so her words, not a projection.

[Ken Burch]

44. God, the people who are attacking this woman sound Republican!

Are you all closet dittoheads or something?

We are supposed to be the compassionate side of politics.

[northzax]

52. not at all

but I can recognise an abuse of the legal system when I see it.

[Ken Burch]

62. What abuse? what possible harm could it have done

to give the woman another retake?

Migraines are debilitating. There's also an issue of gender politics here, as women are far more likely to get migraines then men, and men are far more likely to be insensitive about women getting those migraines and to act as if they are making a big deal over nothing.

Thomas Jefferson, the spiritual founder of this party, suffered badly from migraines.

He once wrote "all life is the avoidance of pain."

[NoKillShelterGuy]

70. At what point do you stop?

If she failed the test a hundred times, would giving her that test the hundred and first time make a difference?

[northzax]

74. what if she develops another migrane

during the next test? how many times does she get to take it? (she's had three chances so far, that seems more than fair)

I certainly don't think it's a big deal over nothing to have a migrane, they are debilitating, but there has to be a limit on the number of times you can take a test before you get an unfair advantage over the other students in the class. If there was a way to categorise migranes, I would be more supportive of allowing someone to take something over and over again until they don't have a migrane, but there is no way to do that. in addition, how many times must the professor rewrite the test so she can take it again? She's had three bites at the apple, at some point we have to draw the line.

As for money, she needs to show that the F is hurting her financially. I'd think the fact that she's two years out of law school and has not yet passed the bar exam is doing more damage to her prospects (I have no idea if she has taken the exam in the pasy, but the article says she 'is studying for the bar') than the F.

[TommyO]

48. Thanks for the reality check Ken

My ex (and still best friend) suffers from severe migraines as well - when he would get a migraine (his were optically triggered), he would be out of commission for the better part of a day for a mild incident, or several days for a severe incident.

I wonder if part of the reason there isn't more interest in migraine treatment is because a majority of migraine sufferers are women.

For those of you doubting this person's ability to deal with stress - not all migraines are stress-related, you need to educate yourself a bit before spouting off.

I wouldn't wish a migraine on anybody - even Commander Cuckoo Bananas (that episode has won a permanent place on my TiVo)

[LanternWaste]

83. it's not a gender bias

Headaches in general are low-priority in the med community, it's not a gender bias thing. I suffer clusters and have found that I initially knew more about them (triggers, treatments, etc.) than my neuro. I worked in the med community for about six years in the nineties and if it ain't cancer, pulmonary or respiratory, the file/patient is given low priority.

[saigon68]

65. It is a cheap shot

[bluestateguy]

7. Perhaps she should spend her time studying for the bar exam instead

I hope the judge dismisses this case immediately.

[Igel]

9. A friend in grad school suffered from extreme testing anxiety.

She flunked her PhD exams and promptly threatened law suits, got the university's student psych services center to back her, and managed to get the first test thrown out. The dept's test was part written, then an oral defense.

The second test was entirely take-home, over the course of many days. The oral section was very low key, over coffee and dinner. Still limited to two hours--limiting not the student, but the faculty.

She made conference presentations that went well, until she got a question. She handled lectures, until she got a question. She did well with researching and writing articles, until she got reviews back that didn't glow with praise. 10 years after graduating, she's a lecturer, teaching first and second year language courses, where there are no tough questions after the first year. Some people can't hold some jobs.

If this law student gets re-admitted and has a sudden migraine one day, will the trials or proceedings be suspended? Her clients' office visits postponed? If it's during a trial, is the lawyer's migraine grounds for an appeal? If her behavior or abilities are impacted *before* the migraine itself begins, is *that* grounds for an appeal--and wouldn't it require that the lawyer testify? (I'm not an attorney, or even a lawyer, but it seems to me that if it's grounds for an appeal, it should be challengeable.)

[NoKillShelterGuy]

19. It is not a matter of re-admittance

because she graduated. She wants the F removed from her transcript.

[Igel]

51. The problem's similar.

Both graduated (my friend was never formally dismissed).

Both have defects that might well prevent them from doing their jobs. My friend has no record on her transcript, and the faculty agreed never to discuss it. She got a tenure-track job based on having her "problem" removed from her transcript.

The lawyer shouldn't have her F removed without a medical note being appended for the reason, as fair warning. The F would raise the question as to why the lawyer, as a student, failed; the note would provide the answer she would, if asked.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

11. So she took the test, flunked it, retested, flunked it, and then...

flunked it a third time?

Whatever happened to "only getting one bite at the apple"?

[Ken Burch]

81. God forbid you ever get a migraine, NoHeartShelterGuy

Or maybe you should get them.

Then you wouldn't be so friggin' smug about this.

[Feron]

84. I get migraines and

..i don't think she should sue. Carin Constantine was given an opportunity to retake the test and she failed. According to the article, she eventually retook the class and passed.

Yes, migraines do seem to occur at the worst times and while unfair, that's life. Before going to the neurologist,I spent an entire semester of college battling migraines nearly daily because of allergens in my dorm enviroment So, i know what it is like to take a test with your head pounding. And yes, allergies can trigger migraines.

There are things you can do to minimize the occurence and severity of migraines with strategies as preventatives, abortives, and trigger identification. If stress is a trigger, then she should have learned relaxation techniques or something along those lines. It's not like migraine sufferers are helpless ,but nailing the right treatment option can take time.

It's understandable that she failed because of a migraine ,but if she had mastered the material then she would have passed the makeup exam.

[geek tragedy]

15. The 4th Circuit is notoriously anti-civil rights, so this is interesting.

I'm inclined to believe that the woman has a legitimate gripe.

[barbaraann]

23. George Mason U. is a pillar of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

"The heavy stream of money invested in George Mason University offers a striking example of the attention that conservative foundations have paid to the recruitment and training of college youth. Located just outside the Washington, D.C. beltway and offering good access to national decision makers, George Mason University has been a magnet for right-wing money for over a decade.

From 1992 through 1994, the 12 foundations invested a combined total of $8.55 million in various academic programs and institutes of George Mason University. This amount placed the University third among all academic and non-academic grantees, traiing only the more prestigious University of Chicago and the Heritage Foundation. Among other things, awards to George Mason University supported the work of the Center for Market Processes ($2.1 million), the Center for the Study of Public Choice ($524,100), the Institute for Humane Studies ($3 million), and the Law and Economics Program and Center ($1.4 million), headed by Henry Manne.

Both the Institute for Humane Studies(IHS) and the Center for Market Processes(CMP) offer training programs for young conservatives to prepare them for public policy careers."

http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientprofile.php?recipientID=413

[mbperrin]

25. First, no final exam should count for enough to fail the course

by failing the exam. These courses last 18 weeks, and life works by performing daily, not by just one big splash at the end. This is done because instructors are too lazy to evaluate daily progress, and in most cases, wouldn't recognize proficiency if it bit them in the ass.

And when you do make everything dependent on one big showing, is it any wonder that stress is ratcheted up beyond reasonable measures? Houses are built one stick at a time, and at the end, you have a house. Cars the same. Medical operations the same, procedures are followed, and the whole thing may take hours with help from multiple sources, other doctors, nurses, etc.

Legal cases are the same. Not one big Perry Mason finale when Paul Drake rolls in a covered evidence cache on squeaky wheels, but by day in and day out attention to the details of the business.

Authentic assessment means just that - courses operate under real-world conditions, and performance under those conditions means proficiency. The whole one strike and you're out mentality is the domain of martinets and sorters who believe they have some sort of exquisite truths to pass on only to the deserving, and they'll decide who the deserving are. Never mind that Einstein's teachers thought him slow, that Edison did poorly in school and hundreds of other examples.

There's a reason the dean resigned, after all (perhaps to spend time with his family?) We need to update these antiquated practices and immediately, because we cannot afford to throw away the talent we are currently wasting.

But what do I know? I've only got a master's in education and 10 years teaching experience....

[NoKillShelterGuy]

27. Do you know of any accredited law school....

that does not go on the "100% final" grading method? I have never heard of such a school. That does not mean it does not exist, but I have never heard of one. It is like the Socratic Method. A fixture, in other words.

You say that "there's a reason the dean resigned, after all". Do you have any evidence that even suggests that he resigned because of some improper conduct? It has been my experience that people do periodically retire or move on to other endeavors.

[mbperrin]

32. I have no interest in law schools, only in education. I would

suggest that "everyone does it" is a weak defense at best. The Socratic method, by the way, is the antithesis of high risk, one chance only testing, since it is indeed a step by step daily method, so which of these is the correct model?

The dean resigning (not retiring) is mentioned in the article. If it were not germane, why would it be mentioned? Are you a lawyer? Where did you attend?

[NoKillShelterGuy]

38. Germane? In The Washington Posts reporting???

:rofl:

Are you suggesting that he "resigned" because of this suit? That should have made the news, should it not? A quick google turned up this article http://www.gmu.edu/alumni/spirit/fall04/grady.html He apparently moved from GMU to UCLA. That is quite a step up, yes?

Didn't you ever watch "The Paper Chase"? Don't most if not all law schools teach by the Socratic Method, and then have exams at the end of the semester?

[mbperrin]

39. Of course, if we dismiss the WP entirely, there is no

discussion here, right, because the incident itself never happened.

Please look at the Berkeley article on Socratic and grading and their exact criticism of the Paper Chase environment at many schools.

I would suggest that Berkeley is ranked higher than UCLA, by the way, if we're going to invest in credentialism here.

[mbperrin]

41. Leaving the deanship to teach.

Quite a promotion and moving from one coast to the other. Yep, big promotion.

Nope, never watched the Paper Chase after the first episode. Don't watch The Principal, The Substitute, The Faculty or the like, either, because they all share the same relationship with the truth about education. There isn't any.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

46. Are you being sarcastic?

because going from a small, relatively unknown law school like GMU to a big school with a world-wide reputation like UCLA law school strikes me as a promotion.

[mbperrin]

49. No, I can't tell what you believe. Because you earlier suggested

that GMU epitomized the general virtue and all around good practices engaged in by 100% of all accredited law schools, and now you seem to be relegating them to the sticks.

Which is it? They're really great and did wonderfully when they treated this student in this fashion, and they just do what everybody else does, and what they do is great. Or are they hicks in the sticks, and a move from the deanship there to a teaching position elsewhere is a big promotion?

I can't tell. I'm just commenting on the article like everyone else on this thread.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

53. Do some research if you like.

You may find that while GMU is considered to have an up and coming law school, its ranking is in the mid 40s, while UCLAs law school is in the top 15. This comes from that Boalt link you posted.

I did not say that every law school operated on the Socratic Method with exams at the end of the semester. That is, however, apparently the standard way law school operate. Your making denigrating comments about me does not alter that fact.

[mbperrin]

55. Actually, in 27, that's exactly what you said. I'm not denigrating

you at all, I'n denigrating a so-called education system which feels it's duty is to sort out the worthy from the unworthy, rather than teach students who volunteered to learn!

[NoKillShelterGuy]

58. No, it really is not what I said.

a direct quote from #27 is "Do you know of any accredited law school....that does not go on the "100% final" grading method? I have never heard of such a school. That does not mean it does not exist, but I have never heard of one."

is what I said. I did not say that 100% of law schools operate on the Socratic Method and final exam model, I said that I had never heard of one that did. Now I have. It is still a very small minority.

[mbperrin]

61. YES! Now show why being in a minority is a bad thing, please.

Your very presence on a board called the Democratic UNDERGROUND indicates your self-proclaimed minority status. Now why is that a BAD thing?

Virtue and right action cannot be decided by majority vote or common action. They exist. If we can get most people to do them, that would be great, but they wouldn't be right BECAUSE most people did them (or wrong NOW because MOST people don't.)

Thanks.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

68. if you were taking a class

would you prefer it to be one of straight lecture or taught by the Socratic Method? I would prefer the Socratic Method because it forces the students to become much more engaged.

As for classes taught by splitting the class into groups and assigning projects, it has been my experience that more time is spent working out the details of who is going to do what than on the subject matter. The alternate to that is that one person ends up carrying the majority of the group's burden, while most of the rest of the group slacks off.

[mbperrin]

72. Your criticism of so-called group work is spot on!

People with insufficient training never understand how to assign or evaluate these types of projects, which are some of the best real-world examples we have.

Team efforts make possible the modern world - everything from the NFL to the Rouge River Assembly plant for Ford. If everyone in a system doesn't do their job, the total job doesn't get done. Yet, perversely, there is no such thing a "group" project. In reality, these are skillfully produced series of individual projects.

Each person will receive a grade based on their own results of the "group" project. There cannot be a uniform grade applied to all members, although it is conceivable (but not common) that each member would indeed earn the same grade because their production was exactly equal.

Your personal experience (and mine, before I entered education) and most people's, show the crying need for more than a perfunctory bow to forms not understood and methods not learned, of REAL education!

Here's how I introduce my own student to teamwork (avoid the g word; it' already loaded with too many negatives).

Here's my desk. I need 4 volunteers please, you, you, you, and you. Thanks for volunteering! What? You must have, because here you are. Your assignment is to each take a corner of this 400 pound oak desk and lift your corner, with the intent being to lift the desk clear.

(I then instruct one student quietly to do nothing when I ask them to lift.)

Result? Is the desk off the ground? Nope. Is the project a success? Nope. What will the grades be? #1, holding your corner up. Were you asked to lift your corner at the signal? Yes? Did you do it? Yes, you're still doing it? #2, same. #3, same. #4, you're not lifting! The desk is still partly on the ground. You're doing nothing!

Grades: 1,2, 3 each earn 100's, 4 gets a zero. Are these results obvious to everyone with eyes in the classroom today? Yes? Just as obvious to me (and to others) will be your efforts and results on the various team projects we will tackle. Whether the project is successful or not has no bearing on individual grades, and because we are individuals, not Borgs, there can be no Borg or group grade. Understand? No work, no grade. If you perform proficiently in here, you will do well, without regard to what anyone else does. Every one in here could get a 100 for the course, you could all fail, there is no curve, no adjustment for what others do. You and only your efforts will determine your grade. We use the team format because we can do bigger and more interesting things than otherwise, and working with a team teaches you other things as well. Most of your life will be spent working with others, not in isolation, so this is your best method.

Thanks, and you can put that desk down now.

Does this make more sense than the "methods" untrained folks have used on you til now? Does this sound better, more powerful, more interesting than just sitting there absorbing? I hope so, and thanks for the chance to ride my pony! :)

[mbperrin]

36. After doing a bit of Google, how about

UC Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law?

One of the top law schools in the country. Apparently both lecture and Socratics are out.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/boalt-hall.html

Read on down for their criticism of the hyper-competitiveness of too many other programs, please.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

43. Ah. They tried to change to a standard grading system

and failed.

"Boalt’s grading system has been controversial since its origins over 30 years ago, with opponents stating that it hurts Boalt students by being hard for employers to understand and hurting Boalt’s best in their hunt for judicial clerkships. Opponents claims that a grade of Honors, which can be given to a student in the top 11% of a class, is much less impressive than the A or A- that most top law schools assign for that same percentile score. However, this grading system is likely to stay as a large effort to modify the grading system recently failed."

The fact that they feel it necessary to mention this suggests that it is a rarity among law schools.

[mbperrin]

47. Are you suggesting this is not the ONE accredited school

you asked for in 27? Are you suggesting this is NOT one of the top schools in the country? Then I wouldn't be surprised to find they are different from the "typical" practices elsewhere.

I said that these practices are COMMON, but wrong. If the purpose of teaching is to TEACH, these practices are counterproductive. If we want to stick a label on someone and send them down the road, then it works just great. Problem is, the waste in human resources and the damage to the world when we discard, rather than teach, people. But again, what do I know? All I have is this lousy master's in education and 10 years in the classroom.

Don't believe I caught your credentials yet....since YOU are the one concerned about them.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

50. If they are common but wrong

then I guess a lot of educators disagree with your assessment, yes?

You say we discard people. Is there a shortage of lawyers? Was this woman denied her degree because she failed this class? Is she unable to take the Bar because of her migraines? How was she "discarded" because she has an F on her transcript which shows that she earned her degree?

[mbperrin]

54. Actually, education degree-holders agree with me. This is standard

stuff. What you may not know is that no teaching credentials are needed to teach at the university level. These are subject matter experts who do not have certificates or degrees in actual educational methods.

They tend to teach as they were taught, by similarly untrained personnel. Let me explain it like this: your mechanic could be the best mechanic in the world, but it does not follow that he is the best teacher of mechanics in the world.

Elementary and high school teachers are required to take minimal training in most states (12 hours or so, 4 courses) in education, in addition to their subject matter degrees. There is no such provision at the college level, and this is why there is such disparity at that level, with some wonderful intuitive folks and other unimaginative types who do what was done to them, not always good.

Authentic assessment, portfolio production, student-centered learning, and many other methods are common practices in the education departments, but unfortunately, hardly anyone asks people trained in education how to teach. In fact, there's that common stereotype, Those who can't, teach, which enables them to avoid having to learn anything about the actual act of teaching, which is a rather complex cycle with the goal of every student becoming proficient in the material.

Sorry for the length of the rant; this just touches one of my favorite ponies to ride! :)

[NoKillShelterGuy]

57. Please, rant away.

"Let me explain it like this: your mechanic could be the best mechanic in the world, but it does not follow that he is the best teacher of mechanics in the world."

Conversely, would a person who is really an excellent teacher make a good teacher of a subject like the law? This isn't an area where you can read the Encyclopedia Britannica entry on it and have a comprehensive or even passable knowledge of the subject matter. It is a field where "big name" players with decades of experience in the law often lose.

Is the goal of law school to have every student pass? It may be at Boalt, but I have heard of schools which fail and expel more than 60% of all incoming first-years during that first year.

[mbperrin]

59. I'm saying subject matter experts need to have education training

as well. Teaching a subject is not the same as performing the subject; for instance, the fact that you were present at the time of your tonsillectomy does not suggest that you're ready to do the procedure! And I'm sure many doctors with their tonsils intact can do a good one! This is the distinction.

And your point of discarding a huge percentage of students is the point I'm trying to make. It IS common, but WHY is it GOOD? I think the purpose of teaching is to TEACH, not LABEL AND SORT. We're in agreement that labelling and sorting is common, and my theory is that the cause of it is lack of training in teaching methods. What is YOUR theory? WHY is it GOOD? We agree that it is common, that lots of people do it, but why is it GOOD?

Thanks.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

63. Which method would you prefer?

the Socratic Method or rote memorization or whatever they call it now?

The Socratic Method at least has the advantage of engaging students in the actual class. You not only must learn the principles underlying the subject matter, but you must also be "quick on your feet" and be ready to go. It also gears you up for the reality of an adversarial judicial system.

[mbperrin]

67. I'd prefer the natural learning cycle, which, EXTREMELY briefly,

is like this:
WHY must we learn this? Satisfactory answers here will lead to
WHAT are the facts we must know, the basic stuff, the theories, then
HOW can I use this stuff, with hands-on applications...
and finally WHAT IF we did this or that with some chance for original contribution, thinking, tryouts and experiments on the part of students.

Methods should include a mix of the visual (50% of today's population is visually oriented), the aural (33% of today's population prefers listening as a method), and the kinesthetic (1/6 of the world learns best by manipulation of learning objects and their own bodies together).

Evaluation should include: direct observation of proficiency, ability to synthesize knowledge by production of an independent project, ability to use knowledge with hands-on environments, and a portfolio, showing individual progress over time correlated to course instruction.

For more, I'd suggest two years of your life in a master's program in education at any accredited school.

Thanks for asking!

[NoKillShelterGuy]

71. What would learning objects be in the law?

"today, class, we are going to manipulate legal briefs! Everybody get your gloves, we do not want paper cuts!" ;)

[mbperrin]

73. Yes, actually producing one, rather than just reading existing ones,

exactly! See the difference?

[mbperrin]

56. Yes, there is a shortage of lawyers. Short supply is always

indicated by high prices, and MOST people cannot afford an attorney to represent their interests, so they get plowed. Credit collectors use illegal tactics without fear of repercussion; banks charge illegal fees with no fear of reprisal; salespeople and corporations use deceptive tactics to fraudulently separate folks from their money because there's nothing they can realistically do about it.

Just one example: in an automotive accident where the other person is at fault, but no injuries occurred, just property damage, call a lawyer to see about getting your vehicle replaced. They will advise you that the fees would be greater than that, so don't bother, just suck it up and replace it yourself.

Lack of affordable legal services does indicate a shortage. Yep.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

60. ROTFLMAO!

There is no shortage of lawyers, at least in the US. The US employs more than half the lawyers in the entire world.

"Short supply is always indicated by high prices"

Cocaine prices are very high, and it is not because of a short supply.

People who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a law school education can not afford to work for minimum wage. They have loans to repay unless they were rich to begin with.

[mbperrin]

64. We have more doctors than anyone else in the world, too, so your

argument is that our health care is overstaffed? That there is no health crisis or shortage of treatment?

You think cocaine prices would be the same if supply were not restricted legally?

The fact that law school is so expensive indicates that there are not enough of them, ergo, they charge too much. Result: too few graduates providing too few services at high prices.

You're not really claming, by the way, that the law is a harder subject than nuclear physics, just because the degree costs more, are you?

[NoKillShelterGuy]

69. We do?

I thought that per capita, we were relatively far down the list of physician to patient ratio. Germany and Cuba come to mind as examples of countries with far higher physician to population ratios.

If cocaine were legal, the price would be far lower. That does not mean that the supply would be greater, it would just mean that the cost would be lower because there is less risk for those in the business.

All law schools are not really expensive. And anybody who wants to go to law school can generally get into a law school if they can meet some pretty simple requirements. Good law schools are a lot harder to get into, but are not necessarily more expensive than bad law schools.

In some ways, nuclear physics is an easier field than the law. In physics there are things which are taken for constants, and it is subject to trial and error because it is an actual science, while the law is not.

[mbperrin]

75. Ratios aren't the same as sheer numbers now, are they/

OK, now make up your mind; is a legal education expensive or no, and should lawyers charge less per client if they had more clients? Earlier you said they had 100's of thousands of debt and couldn't work for minimum wage, which wasn't really my suggestion to start with.

Your assertion that lower prices do not lead to increased consumption of any particular good will come as a shock to both economists and retailers who seem to believe that putting things on sale (lowering the price) results in more sales.

And the idea that the law is not subject to trial and error is silly, isn't it? Trials are all about the law, and without error, there would never be appeals. And I agree, all fields of knowledge are worthy, but are not compensated equally, because of manipulation of supply, not difficulty of mastery.

[mbperrin]

77. Yep, we do.

Cuba and Greece have more doctors per 1,000 than we do. We have more than any other country, and we have more 1,000's than Cuba or Greece by far, so yes, we have more doctors than any other country in the world.

http://www.prb.org/presentations/gb-poptrends_all.ppt

The slide you want is near the end.

[elemnopee]

76. I know people at Boalt

For 1L classes they most certainly use the Socratic Method, its a staple. Besides that isn't even the Boalt website and it is rather out of date.

While they critisize other programs it isn't a pure pass/fail system

there is: high pass/pass/low pass/fail = ABCD

Yale (#1 law school in the country) does this as well

In addition they still keep letter grades and class ranks they are just not released to the students, but only to judges for clerkships.

HTH.

[mbperrin]

78. They do use it and more, including that hands-on

instruction and variety that someone keeps touting here. ;)

This is their website:

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/prospectives/academics/courses/




Boalt Hall provides a rich curriculum consisting of courses in both traditional law school subject areas as well as in emerging, cutting-edge fields. These courses feature a variety of classroom techniques, including:

* the Socratic method;
* formal lectures;
* informal lectures and discussions with groups of 20 to 30 students;
* seminar classes of fewer than 12 students; and
* skills and clinical classes where students have the opportunity to take on the role of lawyers either with real clients or in simulated settings.