Southern Baptists in ‘doldrums,’ leader says ahead of meeting

[brooklynite]

The Southern Baptist Convention, the nation’s biggest Protestant denomination and the largest gathering of evangelical Christians in the world, is in the “doldrums” and faces a challenge to determine whether it is on the right path, its leader said Thursday.

The convention’s president, the Rev. Bobby Welch of First Baptist Church in Daytona Beach, Fla., also said that a resolution decrying immorality in American public schools was likely to be debated at next week’s annual gathering in Nashville, Tenn., but that it would be wrong for Southern Baptists to withdraw their children from public classrooms.

...snip...

Welch said no one was at fault for the church’s stagnant growth, which has stubbornly held for the quarter-century since fundamentalist-leaning leaders began taking over the denomination in 1979.

...snip...

A resolution that specifically called for a mass withdrawal from public school classrooms failed last year when it was not accepted by the convention’s resolutions committee. Welch said that the committee was considering two similar resolutions Thursday and that at least one was likely to make it to the floor next week, although it probably would not explicitly call for an organized withdrawal.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8234284/
- - -
Welch said no one was at fault for the church’s stagnant growth

Do you think that demanding half the congregation be submissive to their husbands might have something to do with it?

The New York Times, June 10, 1998

"SALT LAKE CITY -- The Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination and an increasingly conservative force among American religious organizations, amended its essential statement of beliefs Tuesday to include a declaration that a woman should "submit herself graciously" to her husband's leadership"

[jody]

1. "no one was at fault for the church’s stagnant growth"? Perhaps God! n/t

[texanshatingbush]

2. Maybe because of this asshole!

I had the privilege of being part of the effort that got this slime ball out of city politics.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/4153.html

[quaoar]

3. My Baptist joke

Q. Why are Baptists against pre-marital sex?
A. Because it leads to dancing.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Francine Frensky]

34. How do you keep a baptist from drinking all your beer

on a fishing trip?

Invite another baptist.

[ktowntennesseedem]

4. Recovering Southern Baptist here.

I left the SBC personally many years ago, and have gladly shaken that dust off of my feet. I'm still a Baptist actually, but limit any denominational involvement to those progressive and moderate groups that sprung up over the past quarter-century.

I'm proud of my Baptist heritage that has championed freedom of religion, separation of church and state, tolerance and acceptance throughout their history. They did so because for much of their early history they were such a small minority and were so persecuted that they demanded those things for their own survival. All of which is to say that the current bunch that claim to speak for all Baptists and for God himself make me ashamed and embarassed. I wish they would drop the title "Baptist" from their name, because they are anything but. I'll leave it to God to judge whether or not they should still be considered "Christian."

[Ilsa]

5. Raised and recovering SB here too.

I don't call myself that anymore though. I'm more Presbyterian. I'm in disagreement with some of the stated ordinances of the SBC regarding use of alcohol, etc..

[colonel odis]

11. another former southern baptist, here.

if their leaders weren't so filled with hate, i'd almost feel sorry for the rank and file. they really have no concept of god's love. and grace and mercy are something they've never heard of.

i have faith they'll say or do something asinine while in nashville. but i pity the cab drivers, restaurant servers, and bartenders who won't be making a cent next week.

[Ilsa]

17. One of my former ministers spent years working

as a cab driver in one of the most dangerous areas of NYC (at that time). He felt his mission was help people whenever he could, not necessarily to "witness" to them. He was a very kind, gentle soul, and mostly a pacifist. He was definitely a liberal.

[ktowntennesseedem]

18. Same here, I've always been far to the left of mainstream

among Baptists in general. And now that the Southern Baptist stream has been rechanneled so far to the right, I'm off the map.

Regarding alcohol:

Q: What's the difference between a Baptist and a (fill in your favorite mainline denomination here)?
A: The Baptist is the one that refuses to speak to you at the liquor store.

[fleabert]

20. me too.

what you said...perfect.

[VegasWolf]

32. Can't they just go on a gay-bashing binge and be happy. nt

[Samantha]

35. Thank you for your candor

I too left the Baptist church when it became the only church to support a preemptive attack on Iraq. Raised in my early years in Tennessee, the Baptist chuch I attended taught me to judge not, lest you be judge (as recently quoted by Al Gore in a speech, also a Southern Baptist). That was the last straw for me, and I left and feel saddened that I was forced to do so.

The Baptist church is not unlike the Republican party; it's been taken over by a bunch of radicals. Like you, I am embarrassed at the introduction of politics into my church.

It's always nice to run into a Tennessean here ... nice to meet you.

[leesa]

6. Let me give you a clue...you are waaay off track, you racist, misogynist,

people haters.

[hatrack]

7. Why the doldrums? Couldn't they pick one group to focus their hate on?

Or are they discovering that taking over school boards is easier than running them?

[madrchsod]

9. the baptist church maybe splitting into

different denominations. gay rights and other issues are a big problem within the baptist convention. the fundies overthrew the the moderate leadership several years ago and i suspect a lot of moderates are looking else where for a congregation

[bleedingheart]

10. There are many other churches suffering the same problem

my local catholic church has failed to get the support to open a recreation center, a brand new catholic school..etc.

I am a member of that church and to be honest I was so disgusted by the church's pandering to the gop that I decided that my money would be better donated to the local library than to the church...which is what I have been doing.

[msongs]

12. hmm maybe they could bring back slavery so they can

feel like they are at least superior to the african rooted people.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[gratuitous]

13. It's always easier to feign ignorance

Than to admit that you've been horribly wrong for the last quarter century. Believe it or not, Baptists (even Southern Baptists) used to be a pretty progressive bunch. Since the late 1970s, though, the Southern Baptists have been totally in thrall to the know-nothing fundamentalists who spend most of their waking hours enervated by the thought that somebody, somewhere, might be having fun, and doing their damnedest to stamp it out.

Every year when I go to the Church of the Brethren Annual Conference, I run into the faction of our denomination that would be a lot more at home with the SBC, and get depressed. Then I read the reports out of the SBC (which is held at about the same time), and realize that the Brethren aren't nearly that badly off, and even the most reactionary elements aren't as bad as what is portrayed as the mainstream among the Southern Baptists.

[mondo joe]

14. Like an addict in the doldrums between hits

They just can't figure out what to go after next.

[David__77]

15. I hope they go over the edge advocating theocracy.

I want them to expose their true colors.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Verrrrry interesting

They're always claiming that they're booming and growing, because they "teach the True Gospel," while mainstream churches are dying, because "they've lost the way."

Hmm.

But if their membership has been stagnant since 1979, then it's all baseless bragging.

[daleo]

19. "Stagnant growth"

That seems like a contradiction in terms, literally.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

21. If they were on the right path

Christ the King wouldn't be sending so much grief their way. :shrug:

[mzteris]

22. the numbers........

Over 70 percent of Southern Baptist churches are either plateaued or declining. http://www.sbclife.org/Articles/2005/06/SLA3.asp



The full article is published in The Southern Baptist Journal of Theology for Spring 2005. . . uses two statistics as indicators of evangelistic effort and growth: the total number of baptisms reported, and the ratio of baptisms to church members. His data shows that Southern Baptists baptized not many more people in 2003 than they did in 1950 -- . . .

The data also shows that there has no real sustained growth in baptismal rates since 1950 -- throughout the 47 year period, total baptisms never go above 445,725 and never dip below 336,050. . . .

Assuming that the data is accurate, I think that Dr. Rainer's interpretations are correct. The conservative resurgence hasn't had the impact on evangelism that it was expected to have, but without it, things could be much worse . . .

The US has become less receptive to evangelistic outreach -- people are more likely to think of faith as "a personal thing". There are unsaved members in our churches -- church membership is still considered a status symbol in some areas, and church membership is seen as something "good people do." . . . http://pewview.mu.nu/archives/079985.html



". . . Southern Baptists have in recent years topped the 15 million mark on our membership rolls. Our fastest growing type of member, however, is of the "non-resident" variety. Add to this the fact that 20% of our members are "inactive" (they are resident¯they have not moved away¯but they neither attend nor contribute to their church). What this means is that only half of our 15 million members can in any sense be counted as active (that is, they contributed financially or attended at least one service last year).

Even the secular media recognizes the deception of our inflated membership statistics. The Wall Street Journal exposed the facade in an article entitled, "Official Number of Southern Baptists Is Overstated, Even Their Leaders Agree." 1. . ." from "The Founders Journal" Issue 19/20 Winter/Spring 1995 ) http://www.reformedreader.org/sbac.htm

[struggle4progress]

23. They're ripe for a hostile takeover! We should flood in, seize control,

sell the church property, give the money to the poor, and disincorporate the organization. O8)

[Voltaire99]

24. If you can't attract new recruits in this era of Fundamentalism Gone Wild

...then you're really doing something wrong.

Time to get a new marketing plan. Tip: play up the pain and suffering angle. Works every time!

[Jose Diablo]

25. They are in doldrums alright

Thats what happens when people 'internalize' the reality that god is not on their side.

[AnnInLa]

26. And, if you don't have a husband, then

it is your duty to god to go out and get one, so that you can then submit graciously to his leadership....otherwise, how can you be fulfilled?????

[mzteris]

27. looking ahead......

Let's think about this.... the "take over" began about 1979 and didn't really become a battle until about 5 years later. It took a few more years to rid the seminaries of the "liberal" professors and the and churn out the brainwashed fundie preachers. Then they had to "seed" new churches (or take over old ones - my parents were in one such battle for their church!)

Fast forward a couple of years - we're to about 90's by this point. Churches - and "new & improved" movements - attract those "young new parents" who want their children to "grow up in the Church" (like they did).

Only they didn't know it wasn't the SAME church and got rebrainwashed in the new fundamentalism..... THEIR kids are now reaching teen/20's - many of whom are promptly abandoning the loonie bin as soon as they realize what the real world is like. So there should be a real bleeding off over the next decade.

(I'm a homeschool mom - NOT for religious reasons!!!) but am on a list of religious hs'ers in NC. There is a parentgroup currently having "prayer circles" for their "rebellious teens/college students". I'm praying, too. That their kids HAVE seen the truth and go home and educate mom/dad/and all those siblings!!!!!!!!!!)

[freethought]

28. They want to withdraw from public schools eh!? Hmmmm.

I know!! These Southern Baptists can go to the Catholic Schools!! Watch the sparks fly!!

[BobbyinPortland]

29. fuck 'em! I was once Baptist, but I got better

The whole boycott of Disney really pissed me off, but again I'm gay and they don't really like my kind.

[mitchum]

30. They are never held under the water long enough

The reason their growth is stagnating is that the even more crazyass megachurches are attracting their current and potential members

Remember the time when the phrase "the intellectual underpinnings of the Baptist church" didn't sound like an absurdity? Brown was originally a Baptist school. Hard to believe isn't it?

[Zerex71]

31. They should be. They're fringe freaks who believe fairy tales.

[Sgent]

33. The truley interesting thing

is that the Methodists, the arch enemy (not really but in terms of members), have stayed at the same, while they went left.

In my area at least, a LARGE number of methodists are "reformed" Baptists. They like going to church and learning about god, rather than the fire and brimstone*.


*Not that some Methodists preachers are fire and brimstone, but as a whole the church is much to the left of Baptists, but there are outliers at either end (left and right).

[dameocrat]

36. Why would anyone be attracted to the church that wasn't a rich

republican white male, who can afford to send their kids to private school, probably with no blacks?