'IT IS OUT OF CONTROL': Ranchers call for action

[Judi Lynn]

June 19, 2005, 11:21PM

'IT IS OUT OF CONTROL'
Ranchers call for action
Landowners say they're tired of illegal immigrants crossing their property, and they're turning to Minutemen for advice
By EDWARD HEGSTROM
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

FALFURRIAS - The governor of Texas has discouraged an Arizona civilian border patrol group from coming to Texas in October, but a half-dozen local ranchers and farmers say they may welcome the Minutemen.

During a tour of South Texas with an Arizona delegation Sunday, the ranchers said they're fed up with the destruction and occasional violence caused by illegal immigrants crossing their land. They said the problem has worsened in recent years, and they want to draw attention to the issue.

"Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the country understands what's happening on the border," said Fred Schuster, a vegetable farmer along the Rio Grande. "As someone who was born and raised here, I can say it is out of control."

Schuster, who says his wife wants to leave South Texas because of the turmoil, praised the work of the Minutemen.

"Y'all did a good job out there," he told Chris Simcox, head of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, the group that organized a patrol on the Arizona border in April. After talking for about two hours in Falfurrias, the group drove south to the banks of the Rio Grande.
(snip/...)

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3232384
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http://arizona.indymedia.org.nyud.net:8090/uploads/simcox.gif http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org.nyud.net:8090/images/HeadlinePics/minutemen.gif

[Journeyman]

1. I thought this was going to be about Mad Cow Disease. . .

but on opening it, I see it's only about Mad Cowboys.

[Senior citizen]

2. Heh heh -- their hoods are coming off.....

There sure is a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment out there. And Schwarzenegger turns out to be--guess what--an immigrant! Well, yeah, he's a legal immigrant, and people are supposed to only be against illegal immigrants, but it turns out that bigots can't always tell the difference, particularly if the immigrants can't speak English or have a foreign accent. Der Gropenator had a TV ad that wasn't playing well, and they must have done a focus group to find out why because within a few weeks the ad was changed so that a native English speaker was saying his lines instead of him saying them himself.

Reminds me of that 60 Minutes segment about the black comedian who'd done a skit about a black man who was blind and didn't know he was black, and who hated blacks and was the leader of a white supremacist group, but since he always wore a hood to meetings they didn't know he was black either--until one day they urged him to take off the hood....

So maybe all the pukes who hated Clinton because he was an immoral liar are finally realizing that Cuckoobananas is even more immoral and a much bigger liar, which could be part of the reason his polls are dropping just like Ah-nold's. As ye sow hatred and intolerance, so shall ye reap the same.

[losdiablosgato]

11. I live in TX, and these illegals are hurting us a lot

They are taking jobs from American citizens, lowering wages, clogging hospitals, and schools. And in the case of these ranchers they are damaging their businesses. They need to be stoipped and since El Presidente Jorge Arbusto will not do it some one has to.

[leesa]

14. That's what they said about blacks too. So WE hire them but it's THEIR

fault for taking the job. Why aren't you on the asses of those who employ them? I think racism plays a huge part. "these illegals" is a big tip off.

[losdiablosgato]

17. The difference is that African Americans are American Citizens

The illegals aren't. It is time to seal the border to illegals, and deport those here.

[maxrandb]

22. HA, HA, HA

"seal the boarders to illegals, and deport those here"


:rofl:

I say DO IT!!! Bring it ON!!!!

Want to see Chimpy's numbers in the teens??? Tell Americans they are now going to pay $5 for a head of lettuce. Tell Americans that the price of all goods and services has doubled.

Bring it the "eff" ON!!!

It's OK though. If we continue electing Republicans, it won't be long til Americans are crossing the boarders of Mexico and Canada to find good paying jobs.

[northzax]

27. so the use of exploitative

abusive labour doesn't bother you in the least, huh? do you go out looking for sweatshop-made jeans to save 50cents? Try to find a union construction job on a subdivision sometime. the mass influx of unregulatable, cheap labour is not good for the working classes.

[maxrandb]

39. Of Course It Bothers Me.

It bothers be a great deal. What needs to be done is to hold the Bush cronies and "anti-American" corporations accountable. Someone is hiring these workers, and like it or not, the American people are benefiting in the form of lower prices. One poster was complaining about how much illegal immigrants are costing his area in medical costs. Someone should ask that poster if he is just as pissed at Wal-Mart?

What ought to piss people off is not that we have illegal immigrants entering this country to try to make a decent living. What should piss people off is that corporations are hiring them, because they don't want to pay a living wage to Americans, or provide any type of employee benefit packages.

If we had any organized labor left in this country, that was willing to fight for "living wages", maybe, just maybe, people would make enough money so that paying $5 for a head of lettuce is not that extreme.

And no, I don't "go out looking for sweat-shop jeans to save 0.50", and I don't appreciate your inference.

I just wish that, even for one day (or even better one week), every illegal immigrant that is making $2.50 an hour stopped working.

And if you buy into the "it's hurting the local economy" BS that the right-wing spews, you're overlooking the possibility that "jingoism" and racism, may just play a little role in all the outrage.

I'm no historian, but it might help me believe that racism is not part of this if someone could point me to some stories about the "1920's Minuteman Group" that set up shop off the Atlantic Ocean to stop white Irish and German people from entering this country.

And I will guarantee you one thing. If a majority of hispanics voted Republican, we would not be having this arguement..but you just keep on spewing right-wing talking points on a Democratic site.

[northzax]

56. hmm, organized labor is a right wing talking point?

interesting. Frankly, I believe the borders should be open, with the free transit of human capital north and south. As long as there is a permanent under-working class in this country without real recourse to the law, there will be significant abuses of the wage, health and safety systems in this country. Because a group that has been deemed 'illegal' has no way to protect themselves. Because of this, other workers must lower their standards to compete. Therefore wages for everyone involved and safety standards for everyone involved fall to the lowest common denominator. it is not simply the immigrant population, but the entire lower end of the economic strata that is abused. that right wing enough for you?

and I know it's easy to blame it on 'republican companies' (the health care issue is a non-starter with me, while the undocumented immigrant burden on our system is large, it is dwarfed by our own failure provide reasonable health care to the entire citizenry of this country) If you live in a house built since 1990, you are most likely, profiting from abusive labour practices. If you have hired a construction firm, ditto. If you hired a landscaping firm, ditto. if your office is cleaned by an outside contractor, ditto. If you have ever purchased an off-label good, ditto.

I will not apologize for telling you the unvarnished truth: illegal immigration hurts the working poor. Legal immigration does not. And if what you are telling me is that removing the incentive for employers (not just your hated walmart, but almost everyone) to entice uneducated and illinformed workers to take less money and do more dangerous work than the current workforce is a right wing talking point, then maybe I'm in the wrong place. If thinking that having a permanent, undocumented underclass providing cheap labour without recourse to the rights and privviledges that citizens can avail themselves of is a bad thing is a right wing talking point, then I guess I should leave.

I suggest you read up on the nativist riots of the 18th century, we've been down this road before.

[maxrandb]

61. And Just Who Do You Think is Going to Fight for the

Working poor to improve wages and benefits. I have a clue for you...It Ain't the Minuteman!!! That is where this entire thread came from. I was responding to one poster that said we should "close the boarder and deport them all". How that solves our problem, I don't know. Yeah, let's punish the guy making $25 a day, but not the people that are hiring him. Your post seemed to be defending the poster that said the above, while at the same time, implying that I think "sweat-shops" are a good thing.

We've both wasted quite a bit of broadband to say, in effect, "we agree". Here's what I think; "The exploitation of undocumented workers hurts all American workers, but especially those in the bottom percentile".

I just want to make sure that you're not saying the answer is to put a bunch a Ford Bronco Riding, Pseudo Cowboys with rifles on the boarder.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Yes, exploitative labor practices bother those of us that are against

the minutemen. Slavery was exploitative as well...so should we have called out the KKK?

[Mizmoon]

15. I sympathize

Most of us up here in the North are used to the very controlled Canadian border with well-fed and mostly employed people on both sides of it. Keep letting us know how this stuff really affects you folks. One day we'll actually understand each other, right? :)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

42. I'm a northerner and we have problems brewing here, too

but not a fraction of the trouble the SW states have. For a real wake-up, take a road trip there this summer...even as far north as Dodge City, Kansas, you will have quite a time finding a shop or restaurant that is still owned by English-speaking Americans... go to Gallup, New Mexico, and visit the American bar. Ask the locals who owns all the shops on Route 66 now (clue: Not Americans or Mexicans). Ask them what happened there after 9/11... I don't know much, but what I found out in those 2 towns alone was a mind blower.

[Bridget Burke]

50. So--the problem is not illegal immigration, but Foreigners.

Are those shops & restaurants not owned by "English-speaking Americans" (or by Mexicans) owned by undocumented workers? Not likely--most business owners are citizens or legal residents.

But you're offended that these odd folk dare run businesses in the U S of A. Once again, the mask of "illegal workers hurt the economy" slips to reveal the ugly face of racism & xenophobia.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

64. No racism or xenophobia here

Maybe the business owners are legal citizens, and maybe some are not. But the workers are not, in many cases. I have a couple questions for you: Our companies are moving to other countries, where labor is cheaper, and thousands of our citizens are out of jobs, while millions of people are entering our country illegally and competing with our citizens for jobs, and you don't see problems, right now and in the future? Do you think it is out of line to expect a government to protect the rights and needs of its own citizens first? To ensure a measured flow of immigration, and expect immmigrants to go through legal channels to become citizens? Is that being a xenophobe or a racist to you?

[Bridget Burke]

70. Your statement about un-American business owners gave me the clue.

Anybody who complains about business owners who are "foreigners" has shown their true colors. The business owners are NOT undocumented. You just assume their workers are.

I'd love the government to ensure that workers had good jobs & better rights. Why is this particular issue the most important to you?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

75. And why are YOU so biased? hmmmm?

And be careful what you assume and insinuate when you judge my "true colors" based on a sentence or 2. You are quick to throw labels around and made broad assumptions. Why don't you answer my questions? I think they are fair ones.

[Bridget Burke]

78. First, please explain this statement:

"For a real wake-up, take a road trip there this summer...even as far north as Dodge City, Kansas, you will have quite a time finding a shop or restaurant that is still owned by English-speaking Americans... "

What, exactly, is the problem with citizens or legal residents who came from another country owning businesses in the USA? Are they really not "English-speaking"--or have you figured out that English may not have been their first language?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

88. Longbranch Saloon now a quinceanera dress shop

Hadn't been through there since the early '80s, were hot and thirsty and wanted a cold beer at the old Longbranch. The whole street is basically dead, and the few businesses still active are now Mexican owned, with all the signs in the windows in Spanish. Went into the dress shop and asked about the Longbranch, and not one of the 4 or 5 workers could answer because they didn't speak English. By the way, we had a great meal that night at a locally owned Mexican restaurant.

Met some native Americans in Gallup, who told us that most of the shops on on their stretch of Route 66 are now owned by Saudis who bring over their own friends and family members to work for them(MOST of whom are NOT citizens). After 9/11, there were some intense conflicts between the locals and these business owners and workers...

These are just 2 examples of many things we witnessed and experienced 2 years ago after not having been in that part of the country since the early 80s. Sorry if this makes me a jerk in some people's eyes, but I am sad to see those parts of our American culture that I love disappearing--farms, historic towns, cultural icons, etc. What is going to happen to OUR heritage and history?

I have figured quite a bit out, and still have a lot to figure out, but at least I can admit that...Something for you to think about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. Diversity is also a part of our American culture

Something for YOU to think about. :eyes:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

117. gee, thanks for dusting off that old buzz word.

Don't quite understand why that is all you choose to glean from what I wrote, but I respect your choices... :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. You nailed it

"dusting off that old buzz word"

Forgive me but I find that sentiment sad. I also found this comment sad:
Sorry if this makes me a jerk in some people's eyes, but I am sad to see those parts of our American culture that I love disappearing--farms, historic towns, cultural icons, etc. What is going to happen to OUR heritage and history?

I grew up in a non-diverse all white suburb. It was BORING. Hubby and I deliberately chose a diverse neighborhood to raise our kids in. They are open minded, tolerant and beautiful young adults now. (And avid liberals)

There's an old saying that goes something like this:
You can only truly fear what you don't know.

I think that applies to people and cultures as well.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

124. As one who has lived in one of the most liberal cities in the US

for most of my life, raised by ultra-liberal, social-activist parents, whose values I have shared for the most part all along, I have grown a bit weary and leery, of the pop-lib lingo. It is too often used as a cloak by people who think they have "arrived" and don't have to think anymore, so they join with others who love the sounds of their words, and they pat each other on the backs, and use the lingo like a weapon...And that you find my comment "sad", and think you are enlightening me with that banal fear quote just shows you aren't listening, hearing or thinking about what I am trying to say.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. So what are you trying to say?

That you miss our all white European heritage? Well I don't. Besides, it's a myth.

Not everyone who went west in the 1800s was white. Not all the cowboys in the wild west were white. There were African American and Hispanic Pony Express riders and stage coach drivers. The railroad tracks going west were laid by Chinese laborers as well as Irish and Germans. Many African Americans fought in the Civil War. My grandmother who was born in KS in 1898 grew up speaking German. My other grandmother was born in Tennessee on a plantation and had African American cousins.

The image our culture of movies and TV shows has painted of our history is false. I for one got sick of being lied to. I wanted my kids to grow up in a more honest world. This country was founded and settled by many different and yes, diverse, peoples. That is our culture and our heritage. It is what makes this a wonderful country. To turn away immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families is wrong. And it's unAmerican.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

131. Hyperbolic & sophomoric response to false premise

Never said WHITE, now did I? Come down from your grandstand.

I hope you are not teaching our children that all media portrayal of American history is false, because then you would be teaching them a lie.

I hope you are teaching them that everyone can be proud of those positive roles their ancestors played in the forming of the United States. And please don't forget that the vast majority of early settlers and pioneers were of European descent. What I am saying is, don't trash Euro-American heritage in your quest to honor the accomplishments of pioneers and settlers of other races. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I see you are in Kansas. One of my 3rd great grandfathers was an original settler in Lawrence. His home was a station for the Underground Railroad. His son was murdered in the Quantrill Raid.

It's funny that you say "To turn away immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families is wrong. And it's unAmerican". In the 1600 and 1700s, this 3rd g-grandfather's ancestors and their family members (who simply wanted a better life for themselves and their families, and to live peacefully with their neighbors), were murdered by the Original Americans. I guess you could say they were turned away! Anyway, is neither here nor there...

At this point in time, we cannot accomodate every single person from every country in the world, who wants to flee their country and live in the United States. Immigration needs to be measured and controlled, so that our systems can accomodate new citizens without compromising the quality of life that is what makes the US a place people want to move to in the first place.

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. I am not on a grandstand

I also never said ALL media portrayal of American History is a lie. But we have been misled. And that is a shame.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

133. That is all you can say?

I was hoping you would acknowledge that I had at least one worthy point, but actually I am not surprised you took the easy road, and I see you have started your own thread on the issue, where you can continue seeking out people who think like you do, and make you feel justified in your tightly held beliefs...

I am sure you are a well meaning, nice person, and so am I. But you are WAY out of line to accuse people of being racist and afraid of "diversity", just because they don't see the situation with the rose colored glasses you seem to wear.

Liking Mexican candy, and being excited about new shopping opportunities is great. I love traveling in other countries to learn about their cultures, sample their foods, listen to their music, etc. I deeply appreciate the cultural mix in our own country, as well, and seek out culturally diverse experiences. But I don't like the current immigration situation at all, and I have given some of my reasons for that.

You have made several inaccurate and insulting assumptions about me (and others), because you filter everything through your soundbites and platitudes and actually what seems to be prejudices...As a teacher, I would think you would have a more open mind and make more of an effort to understand different points of view.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. I see you as the one not being open minded here

And bringing up my profession is a low blow.

Many of us here at DU work with illegal immigrants. We have tried to share our experiences and correct misconceptions. For one thing, the immigrants are NOT taxing our schools and social services. They are an incredible ASSET, just as our ancestors were.

Many of the responses are some of the most racist crap I have ever seen on this board. Folks are quoting Phyllis Schaffley and posting links to FAIR, the most outrageous anti immigration group in this country. Are you sure you want to align yourself with them? If you really are a well-meaning nice person then check those links out.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

136. I stand up for what I believe in and don't care how many are in my club

I am not in the least interested in what Phyllis Schafly thinks or what RW websites are spewing, and if I am being aligned with them then people are being very unfair and using too broad a paintbrush.

You say you respect DIVERSITY, but you are not being true to your word when it comes to diversity of opinion. This is what I meant earlier when I said these pop-lib tems can be used as weapons. They are also WAY TOO OFTEN used selectively. Like now, for instance.

I dont see how it is a low blow to bring up your profession because you make it clear that it IS your profession. And it scares and saddens me to think kids today are being taught they should be ashamed of their Euro-American heritage, all in the name of "diversity". Most of our ancestors were not slave owners or "Indian" killers...they were too poor for the former and too busy trying to simply survive for the latter...

I am signing off on this topic because it is taking too much of my time and mental energy, and is frankly depressing. I didn't come here to make enemies, and I doubt you did either. I am sort of a dreamer, and right-brained type, and when I don't take enough time to accurately express complex opinions on complex topics, I leave myself open to be misunderstood...
(had to edit last sentence)

[mbperrin]

113. Looks like if more all-American drunks had come by, it'd still be

a bar. Ever price any of those dresses? Some traditions are quite expensive to maintain, and lessee, that money is being spent HERE, right?


Hmmmm....

[eowyn_of_rohan]

115. Actually, the area had gone downhill so badly I can see why tourists

didn't care to go into it anymore. I have since learned the Longbranch has a new location, so guess your theory didn't pan out. I have met some of wonderful characters while traveling, in good old American road houses... not all are "all American drunks". And re the ones that are, so what? TOLERANCE. DIVERSITY, remember?

[mbperrin]

118. Well, gee, I thought you were the one complaining about the

Longhorn, weren't you?

Diversity and tolerance for drunks? Sure, when I owned a couple of bars, it was great fun to take their money as fast as I could, since they weren't taking it home to their families, anyway.

And there's plenty of drunks! They kill about 50,000 Americans every year in car crashes, and unknown millions are condemned to a life of substandard IQ and body functions because their moms drank or their dads drank enough to damage their DNA and pass it on to them as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. But sure, yeah, drinking is fine, fun, and a fit family pastime! (Hey, watch that bottle comin' atcha!) :)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

119. Gawd... how irrelevant can you get.

You don't care to try to understand any of the points in my original post, you dont seem to grasp irony, and you are now hung up on DRINKING and DRUNKS? I think I have had enough of this thread... if you all refuse to acknowledge that there are serious problems happening now, and more serious ones to come if this damned government doesnt get a handle on the rampant illegal immigration in our country, then I have to wonder who you are, and what your motives are.

[mbperrin]

120. Gee, ironically, you seem to be the one without a grasp of irony...

Lessee..first you complained that the bar you wanted to drink at was gone.
Second, you complained that it was replaced with a shop that sells rather expensive clothing for a celebration related to a change in age and status in a young woman's life.
Third, then you said no, the bar had moved because this neighborhood was now so bad that no one would want to drink in it.
Fourth, you threw some kind of diversity wedge at me, but I hadn't talked about diversity, per se, just drunks and dresses, as in your original post.
Fifth, I'm not hung up on drunks and drinking; I just pointed out that they cause much more damage to people and to our economy both is direct cases of death (50,000 per year or so) and millions of lives damaged by FAS.
Sixth, I haven't seen anyone suggest that illegal immigrants either kill 50,000 Americans a year, nor that they create permanent chromosomal damage that will ruin the quality of life for millions.
Seventh, I teach during the year and have for the past ten years, and my motives are to point out real problems that would involve real changes in thinking (like the whole ritual of drinking until drunk, blind staggering drunk), rather than take pot shots at poor people who are simply trying to make a living, just like me.
Eighth, my German grandmother said it best: "Poor people have poor ways, rich ones have mean ones!"
Ninth, I guess my populist roots simply sympathize with workers everywhere and could give a shit less for inherited wealth given to folks who wouldn't last a year out here.

That's all, I guess. I'm a native Texan with one degree in English?Economics and another in Education. My parents were 8th grade dropouts and nobody knows when three of my four grandparents came to this country or how. Reciprocate? :)

[Ilsa]

126. eowyn, I know what you're talking about...

and I've seen "diversity" go completely one way or the other so there was no diversity remaining.

As a nurse, I've also helped take care of illegals that were here only for medical care (and charity is a good thing, unless you can't afford it at all).

Yeah, I think there is a problem with illegal immigration, but I don't know how to solve the problem, except to say I wish things were good enough in Mexico that it would be unnecessary. I don't think that the Minuteman solution is the best one.

Wasn't there a statistic the other day about 1 out of every 11 Mexicans will eventually move to the US?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

128. I wish things were good enough in Mexico

and other countries, too, so that this wouldn't be happening. In my dreams, (probably the only place it will happen), US would send aides to help countries repair or enhance their broken systems, sort of what we did in Japan after WW2...

[AlphaCentauri]

65. Hispanic purchasing power projected to grow to over 900 billion by 2007

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. I understand what you're saying

about taking American jobs, lowering wages, etc. It gets very complicated in the discussion when all factors are considered. Yes, they are entering the country illegally and that should be stopped.

But, IMO, very few seem to point the finger at who is driving this...it's American businesses. Businesses, large and small across the country, are hiring them at low wages. One has to wonder: if the businesses were offering those jobs at a decent wage would Americans do them? Is it the illegal aliens that are responsible for this or are the businesses actually creating a job market by attracting them and making a conscious choice to fill the spots with lower labor costs.

The filling of hospitals and schools are connected, too. Are the employers offering health insurance to them or paying a wage so that the illegal immigrants can afford the cost of medical emergencies (something a huge number of average Americans can't do either). I honestly don't know, but do the businesses take taxes out of the paychecks of illegal immigrants or is it a cash and carry thing?

Again, I sympathize. I just think it's too easy to make illegal immigrants the modern whipping boy while ignoring the employers.

[Javaman]

23. There is a very simple solution to the illegals...

Demand that the employers pay them a living wage. Meaning, if these people that hire illegals at dirt poor wages, are suddenly made to pay them normal wages, then legal Americans will want those jobs as well. Currently, Illegals take those jobs because Americans don't want them, because they don't pay enough by our standard of living.
However, if we force employers to pay a decent wage, you will suddenly see legal Americans taking those jobs, thus slowing the tide of illegals.
Having lived in low rent areas, many illegals live 6 to 10 people to apt. All of them have low paying jobs. However, together, they are able to make ends meet. This is how they are able to survive.
Also, of the illegals that stay and get a wage boost, they will have more buying power and will contribute to the economy. Also, they will be given a better standard of living, which equals: better educated.


Trying to stop them from coming to the U.S. is a fools Paradise. They will continue to find ways to cross over, just a fact of life.
And during the time the "minutemen" were stationed in AZ. They stopped a total of 350 illegals. A very low number compared to the amount that come over yearly. Which is in the 10's of thousands, if not more. Plus, the minutemen were patrolling during the colder months, statistically those are the low times for crossings. It will be interesting to see how effective they are now that the warmer months are here.
The minutemen are a bandaide on a broken arm.
Personally, these guys scare the hell out of me. First it's the border, what next? Anyone that has a clue understands, that once you empower some radical group, it doesn't stop with their original purpose. Be aware.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. You're halfway there

Yes, we need to boost the minimum wage to something that isn't a joke. That's one prong.

The other prong is, use one fiftieth the time, energy, and rhetoric to go after those who willingly hire undocumented workers. Haul a half-dozen well-dressed, well-coiffed white owners of landscaping firms or construction companies off to do hard labor, and you'd be amazed at how quickly others would fall into line.

Neither one is going to happen because it'd upset the "ownership society" Chimpy McFuckstain wants to impose upon us, of course.

"Seal the borders," my ass.

[WatchWhatISay]

141. And I bet you live in a fairly nice home too

Bet you paid under $100 square foot for it.

I used to be a real estate agent. When people from either coast came to Texas, they were delighted at how much home they could get for the money. One guy from Pennsylvania was smart enough to figure it out on his own pretty quickly. He saw how almost all of the workers on a jobsite (for a new home under construction) were Hispanic, almost always non-English speaking. He realized that the cost of labor was the reason he could get three times as much home for his money in Texas.

You can't have it both ways.

I also did payroll for a landscaping company at another point in my life. Almost all of them claimed a boatload of kids so they had almost no income tax witheld. With their low wages they probably wouldnt have paid much anyway, but they weren't going to be filing returns, so they did this to avoid having it withheld. On the other hand, they all paid social security and medicare taxes, which they will never recieve any benefit from, due to their illegal status.

[Warpy]

3. Word about these vigilante thugs has gotten out

and there are some unexpected consequences: get ready for the price of strawberries and blueberries to skyrocket because there's a lack of Mexican workers to pick them. Undoubtedly this will spread to other crops that depend on migrants for harvest.

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2005/06/18/news/news11.txt

Dumb bastards are cutting the throats of farmers on both coasts, where most of our fruits and veggies are grown.

[woodsprite]

5. No, we have plenty to spare up here in DE.

Just offer the jobs to the undocumented immigrants who are on the road and highway islands selling flowers.

[Cobalt Violet]

6. The price has already skyrocketed with Mexicans picking them.

Someone is making a lot of money on produce and it's not the person picking them.

[izzie]

4. I do not understand why the govt. does nothing on this mess.

Yet they are still putting out people who stay over their visa time. It is just crazy.

[davepc]

55. Cheap labor

Republicans like cheap labor. Mexico is full of cheap labor. We import it.

That simple.

[Greyhound]

72. I live in AZ, and I've got news 4 u...

the Democratic pols are just as guilty. It isn't a repugs vs. dems issue, it's a corporatism vs. the People of the United States of America issue.

[davepc]

74. If Democrats were true to our labor roots

Then we wouldn't be complacent in the corporatism. This is all just another part of the fallout from the DLC and NAFTA and the "New Democrats" sudden love for free trade.

Having masses of undocumented, unorganized, off the books labor flood into the market unimpeded hurts Unions, hurts organized labor, and hurts America.

I don't blame the Mexican who wants a better life for themselves or their children, but we cant just look the other way and claim that everybody who wants to enforce the immigration laws on the border is a redneck racist either.

[SoCalDem]

87. Union cabinet makers at my husband's company are paid BIG bucks

have great benefits and have pension PLUS 401-k...but they are constantly being beaten in bidding for jobs, by cabinet makers who hire $6 hr workers..

Husband's company has a backlog of work (because they have an excellent reputation) , but lots of others who 'were' union shops are now out of business.:(

These fly-by night outfits win bids for projects that they should never have gotten, and usually do shitty work, but the 'owners" pocket the profits, close down..and re-open under a different name..rinse & repeat..

[Ganja Ninja]

7. Too bad the National Guard is over in Iraq.

I guess Texas farmers can thank their blind allegiance to Dubya for that.

As far as the immigration problem goes I think we nee to allow in more legal immigrants from Mexico and Central America but, what I would like to see is some kind of reciprocal policy where we could also move down there and establish residences, start businesses, own land and just generally have citizenship rights. If we're going to take all of these people in then we as American's should get something back for it.

[Cobalt Violet]

8. We should get something more back other than lower wages.

And an over crowded low-income houseing rental market.

[elehhhhna]

9. The ranchers in the Valley use illegal labor constantly & consistently...

for farming and ranching chores & live-in illegal immigrant maids and nannys.

They love the cheap labor.

I call BS

[Bridget Burke]

13. Yeah. Throw some of the "illegal bosses" in jail for a while.

And fine them heavily.

But the media find a few who claim they're being harmed by the immigrants--not the ones who benefit.

Edited to add: The Chronicle did not find "a few" to speak out--they quoted only two (2).

[elehhhhna]

26. Fred Schuster in the OP is a Vegetable Rancher?

Giddy-up, li'l celery!

Houston Rodeo--new event 2006! The Salad Spinner!

[TX-RAT]

35. Throw some of the "illegal bosses" in jail for a while."

Ya gotta catch them first. Any suggestions?

[lastliberalintexas]

48. Oh come on

We all know who is hiring them. I could name several home builders in my area who *use* these people, not to mention the rice and soybean farmers. If I thought anything would happen other than the laborers being deported, I'd report their asses in a heartbeat for exploiting people in need.

And yep, most of the ones I know of who hire them are republicans.

[TX-RAT]

60. We all know who is hiring them.

Sure we do, i won't argue that part.

(I could name several home builders in my area who *use* these people)

So your saying, search without warrants?, or are you saying search on hearsay evidence?

[lastliberalintexas]

66. That's not hearsay, by the way

Hearsay is an out of court statement repeated in court to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

What you and I *know* is not hearsay, it is called firsthand knowledge and is almost always admissible in court on that basis, though it may be excluded for other reasons. What we've been *told* by another would be hearsay and inadmissible unless it fits within one of the many exceptions to the hearsay rule.


Where did I say search without warrants? If law enforcement officials are provided with a tip which is deemed credible, that tip alone might be enough for a judge to issue a warrant. Or if someone is willing to sign an affidavit swearing based on first hand knowledge that X illegally employs certain peoples, a warrant could likely be obtained.

There are plenty of ways to go after the employers, but not the political will to do so.

[FlaGranny]

10. I wonder how

the rest of us would like SMUGGLERS carrying weapons, traipsing through our back yards on a regular basis, knocking down our fences, helping themselves to anything they want on their way through, and having the local police ignore the problem.

Come on! Either these people have to be let in legally WITHOUT having to pay smugglers (who would just as soon let them die in the desert) OR the border patrol needs to do it's job. One or the other.

I don't know how we can blame farmers and ranchers for not wanting the smuggling and property destruction.

[davsand]

29. Exactly! It is the people SMUGGLERS not the people!

I agree completely--it isn't so much the people who are trying to get here--it is the smugglers that are the main problem.

What a lot of folks don't get (and I never did, either, until I became friends with a man who grew up there in West Texas) is that the people smuggling those poor souls into the US are just a bunch of really bad men. They sometimes kill those who can't keep up, they rape women, they do horrible things to people who are simply trying to get to a better life. Additionally, the ranchers and people who live close to the border are also potential victims to these guys if they stumble on to them when they are bringing people over.

Just my perspective on it all. I understand why the locals want to do something, and I also consider it a humanitarian thing to put a stop to the trading in human flesh.


Laura

[kodi]

12. we need to build a 40ft high wall from the rio grande to the pacific ocean

my brother was a border patrol agent in AZ for a few years. he just gave up. the immigrants are pouring over the border and nothing short of a wall and crocodile filled moat can stop it.

how the US government can dare hit tax payers with the billions for homeland security and national defense yet do nothing to stop illegal immigration is obscene.

[leesa]

16. What a dumb ass thing to say. How about the people who hire them?

Why don't you go after them? THEY are the ones causing the influx. Pure racism.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunkerbuster1]

31. nope, he's got it right.

Contractors, owners of construction firms, and so forth rarely find themselves looking at jail time for hiring undocumented workers.

Let's see some perp walks. Let's see what that does. I bet it'd be a thousand times more effective than some assholes grandstanding on the border.

[TX-RAT]

32. Great idea

Just how do you go about doing it. Are you going to just raid company's and check for illegals?

[Sterling]

40. Are you going to just raid company's and check for illegals?

Why not? Seems like they raid anything they want these days. Why not start holding fat cats acountable? I could point to a couple of businesses that would be a good place to start.

And yes seal the border. Better yet create a time machine and seal it 30 years ago, the damage is done.

[TX-RAT]

59. Why not start holding fat cats accountable?

No problem with that.

(I could point to a couple of businesses that would be a good place to start.) OK, whats your evidence? or is it going to be hearsay?

[Greyhound]

106. That's exactly how the INS does it here.

They pull into some company (a resort for example) with a bunch of vans, move into all of the known entrances, round up all the employees, check IDs & SS#'s load em up, and it's business as usual. Nothing happens to the business.

[bunkerbuster1]

47. Easy. Tail a few contractors picking up day laborers.

No tougher than busting the laborers themselves, which does happen sometimes, after all.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

28. That is a Cheap Shot

It is unfair, insulting, and inaccurate to label everyone RACIST who is not happy about the high level of illegal immigration we are experiencing, and the resulting problems--some already being seen, many more yet to come. And how do you suggest people go after the ones who hire them? Kind of like how we are trying to go after the ones who are tampering with our voting systems? Kind of like how we are trying to get bu$h impeached?

[Megahurtz]

34. Yeah, I get sick and tired of hearing "racist"

when race has nothing to do with an issue.

[Kraklen]

93. Race has everything to do with this issue.

Just like it did for the Nazis scapegoating of the Jews.

Oh, blah, blah, they're taking all our jobs, blah, blah, they're not real Americans, blah, blah, they're a security threat, blah, blah, blah, bling, bling, bling, blah.

[MrTriumph]

94. No, it is not racism. Shame on you for saying so.

Sorry- That kind of baiting won't work. Illegal labor takes jobs mostly from poor hispanics, blacks and whites.

Further, the central issue is the inability of the political leadership in Mexico to reform their economy to create enough jobs. What would you say if 10% of the US population had to go to another country to find employment?

[barb162]

44. ditto

[Orangeone]

18. What I want to know

Why is suddenly an issue? Could it be that people are scapegoating the illegal immigrants because the economy is bad? The illegals are not to blame for the bad ecomomy.

I get sick of people saying illegals take away job from Americans. I'm sure if Americans asked for the jobs that illegals do I'm sure that they would get hired. Frankly, when I lived on the farm I never saw any "white" people looking to work in the fields. I don't think you can ever pay enough realistically to make Americans do stoop labor in the fields.

[Igel]

36. It's not suddenly an issue.

It's been an issue for a long time.

It's only recently been making the newspapers and news away from the border ... again.

[Megahurtz]

95. There's more than just the fields though,

it's the entry-level jobs.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. There would be no "illegal alien problem" if people didn't hire

them. How many of these ranchers are happy to hire a few undocumented workers during busy times?

There needs to be a demand-side solution to this problem: fine the ass off anyone who hires illegal immigrants, with the fines set in proportion to the size of the business, enough so that it definitely hurts more to be fined than to pay minimum wage to legal workers.

[Javaman]

25. The reality is: People will continue to hire illegals.

Read my post above, "simple solution".
The concept of don't hire them doesn't come into reality when you are dealing with people looking at the bottom line.
We complain about Mexicans being the only illegal aliens. Although Mexicans make up a large portion of the illegals, they are far from the only group of nationalities being represented. Asians, Middle Easterners, Russians, Caribbean nationalities, Canadians(believe it or not), Africans, Old Eastern Block nationalities, to name a few. Not all of them come in via the southern border.
How many times in the past several years have you read articles about various well to do folks (politician's included) that have been fined or investigated because these people "who know better", are hiring illegals as nannies, house cleaners, cooks, etc?
We aren't talking about just the ranchers here that hire them to pick various types of produce. The illegal problem is so ingrained into our society.
Until we force employers to pay them a living wage this will continue.

[Gregorian]

24. There would be no illegal aliens, without borders.

These invisible borders are what separate us all. Will we ever be brothers and sisters? Without borders we wouldn't need bombs. We wouldn't be in Iraq. We are one. And until people realize that, we will be at war. And that which is hardest for me to swallow is that these Southern neighbors used to own this land they are entering. They owned it. What is really wrong is the fear and greed of Americans. Maybe I should be affraid. After all, the ultimate conclusion of this border crossing might be Mexicans everywhere! We can only imagine brown people everywhere. Where would us white people go? We would get crowded out. But I really doubt that. I would bet that the worst thing that would happen is a bunch of brown skinned people doing jobs, and being productive.
I'm far more worried about white vigilante border guards, than any of those crossing the border in an attempt to make a living.

[Igel]

37. So, a quick question.

Mexico owned the land. How did they get it, and did they get it and use it in a manner that progressives can defend?

[Shadder]

38. Borders are real, sorry.

As to your ultimate conclusion theory, you have no idea how close to the truth that really is in many places right now. Ths nation has been invaded and we've lost. We just refuse to see it.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

46. "brown" people? "white" people? Aren't we all coffee tones?

Why do you separate us according to skin tone?

[Gregorian]

51. That was my point. We're all the same.

I happen to be brown, myself.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

58. Sounded like you were making this a racial issue

That was my point. BTW, I am latte colored, not "white".

[sadiesworld]

54. "Without borders...[w]e wouldn't be in Iraq."

Sure "we" would. It would simply be as corporations without the thin veneer of nationality. Moreover, there wouldn't even be the argument about illegality because Iraq would not be a sovereign nation. A borderless world is simply the next stage in the your-resources-are-ours (and you-are-our-slaves) plan for global corporate dominance.

I'm not particularly fond of elitist theories which are inconsistent with representative government. It really is about the Democracy.

[SujiwanKenobee]

33. So is our economy expanding so much ...

that all immigrants (illegal and legal) are supported by new job creation? I Have a hard time visualizing agricultural enterprises expanding on what limited lands are left by urban sprawl. Where are the initial workers who were hired going if there is suddenly a need for new workers to fill their slots? Obviously no one who comes here wants to be relegated to a lifetime position at menial tasks, which is said to be the main reason we "need" people willing to do this sort of work. If that is the case, then unless the immigrants return home to be replaced by those who just want to work for low wages, there will be a constant influx from over the borders with few returning.
What we are seeing is a massive redistribution of wealth occurring from a rich nation which won't engage in the practice willingly, to a poor country. While the two countries are in such disparity, those who can send the most $$ home, raise their standard of living tremendously in the home country. I know of some illegals who can't wait to go back after the make enough money to start a business in their village or just to get back to family left behind.

In the DC area, small scale construction tradesmen often hire illegals under the table, claiming that locals are too malcontent and want all kinds of special treatment or don't work as hard. On the down side, most are not educated and even after a couple years are not speaking English. They rely on one person who seems to be permanent translator. ALso, it is hard to explain complicated instructions to them without a well educated foreperson and jobs aren't always correctly done. (This is what I was told by a person in the biz).

While on some fronts I am sympathetic to the idea of a person seeking a better life, I do not want the US to become another version of Mexico or South America just by sheer numbers of immigrants who don't necessarily look beyond the economic opportunities here for their allegiance. I think the elites of those countries export their problems here so as not to deal with painful solutions at home.

[Rainscents]

41. Bush loves illegal immigrants... If he didn't, borders would had been

seal off by now! We have Law against illegal right now and the WH is not letting states to use it.

[oneold1-4u]

43. Simple understanding

One could work for $2.50 an hour under the table and save money and so would employer! There would be subsidized housing and utilities and welfare! Food stamps would be available and having children under age 5, WIC would feed them! Pay no taxes and with minimal identity (no real SS #) a stolen car with stolen plates someone loaned, if stopped, or otherwise it is traded for another in a few months. The population today of ethnic legals throughout the US becomes a home and hideout for illegals.
Honest US citizens can be traced down, generally, in a few days because they have a true SS# that they have had for years. Maybe all citizens should void their SS#s somehow and be as well off as all the illegals!

[Bridget Burke]

49. "Pay no taxes" ???

Those with a fake SS# pay Income Tax, even though they're never going to see any return. Most don't have the #'s--but they pay Sales Tax. Especiall in places like Texas, where we have NO State Income Tax & Sales Taxes are on the rise.

And renters ARE affected by Property Tax. News bulletin: Landlords DON'T just eat the difference when taxes go up.

One question--what's the problem with "ethnic legals"? If everybody in the USA was a WASP, everything would be wonderful? Once again, the "economic" argument is revealed as a facade for xenophobia.

[4_Legs_Good]

69. I learned from "Leave it to Beaver" that when everyone is white

everything runs perfectly!



Get rid of the ethnics and America will return to those glory days of IKE and picket fences!!!

david

[fob]

52. They LOVE us for our FREEDOMS! That's why they came to destroy

us, just like them terraists who wanna destroy us because they HATE our FREEDUMBS! That's why I like george bush*, because he*s trying as fast as he* can to take all our FREEDOMS away from US so no non-Merikan can destroy em! Those that are left he* is going to crush with the PA(as in Halliburton got PAid!)-TR(as in TReason)-IOT(as in idIOT*) ACT!

/freepermode

[Miss Chybil]

53. Don't hire them. They won't come.

Treat the drug addict, he, or she, will stop buying drugs. Why is this stuff so hard to figure out?

[MisterP]

62. okay rancieros, if you give up your multibillion subsidies and

two-dollar 1870s-rate grazing fees

[Greyhound]

103. Abso-freakin-lutely!

[Senior citizen]

63. I didn't expect to see so many hoods come off right here.

Recently there was some sort of protest against the Minute-Men in Orange County, southern California. Some people got hit by a car. The police did grab the driver (on edit: the driver was a guy who has several racist web sites) when the people there insisted, but immediately let him go. Meanwhile, they got a warrant and raided the home of one of the people who got hit by the car, supposedly looking for a stolen police flashlight.

It sure looks to me like the brownshirts are targeting "illegal immigrants" and their supporters for the first street violence and law enforcement is backing it up. Nobody said it would be Jews again, but it is always easy to find some unpopular group that is politically powerless, and arouse hatred and jealousy to the point where violence becomes acceptable.

Illegal immigrants do not own big corporations, therefore they did not outsource our jobs. If you can't get a high-paying job like the one you used to have, it isn't because some illegal immigrant took it, but because your company decided to give it to some citizen of India or China. If Mexicans wanted your job, they'd have to stay in Mexico and work at the maquilladora where your job was outsourced.

We're one of the most violent countries in the world. Illegal immigrants who come here are more likely to be the victims of violence than to perpetrate violence themselves. For one thing, they're too tired after 12 hours stooped over picking fruit and veggies. And they're too weak because they've been sprayed with pesticides too many times.

There are no aliens among us, unless you're referring to the reptiles in Washington. And nobody is illegal--there are illegal acts, but not illegal people. So keep removing those hoods--and don't worry. The intolerance your're stirring up isn't going to be directed at you yet. But sure as night follows day, your turn will come. It might be when you can no longer afford to keep your land and you try to organize to stop foreclosures, it might be when you can no longer feed your family and you protest low prices for farm products due to international trade agreements, it might be anything, but if you don't heed the words of Pastor Niehmuller, it will happen. First they came for others, and you did nothing because it didn't effect you, so when they come for you, there will be nobody left to help.

[4_Legs_Good]

67. Great post!

The comments here really blow me away.

I live in Southern California which is replete with undocumented workers. I have never, ever, ever seen a single negative effect of them here, other than the sympathy I have for seeing them out there working their asses off (and backs, legs, shoulders, necks, hands) while I sit at a coosh job in an airconditioned office and suck down grapes at $0.79/lb.

I guess we always need someone to blame.

david

[Megahurtz]

99. That's wonderful for you, but

what about the poor person without the money for that education here in Southern California who needs an entry-level position?:hurts:

[davsand]

68. Is it racism or is it lack of understanding?

I agree that there IS an element of racism present, I'm not denying that. What I'm wondering, however, is how many on here realize just how victimized these "illegal immigrants " are in this whole process.

I am dead serious when I talk about the abuses that go on for the people who are trying to get into the US from Mexico. I don't think a lot of people realize that it is nothing for would-be "immigrants" to be found dead someplace. Rape is common and it is nothing to hear stories of people dying in transit due to horrible conditions. It is not uncommon that someone who is injured or older is left for dead if they can't keep up.

These people are victims of human flesh peddlers, and that is the pure and simple truth. The slavers of our pre-civil war era are no damn different, and I doubt that anyone on here would have stomach enough to stand up and say it was the African slave's fault because they worked cheap...

PLEASE, stop and learn about what the immigrants are going thru.

While the Minutemen are a racist organization, and their motives are suspect, at least take the time to realize that maybe we DO need to do something about the Mexican border issue. I do not claim to have the answers, nor do I think the Minutemen are it, but at least people are talking about the issue now, let's take the opportunity to work for some kind of humane answer.


Laura

[davepc]

71. you're comparing people who come here of their own free will

to people ripped from their homes in chains?

There are several important issues that revolve around this regarding labor and capital and immigration and racism too...

but nobody came to the immigrants town, rounded them all up, put them in chains, and forced them to survive a 3 month voyage in shackles like sardines in a can to get here.

And no one prevents them from leaving either, going back to their homes, their friends, their family.

To compare illegal immigrants to slaves, and employers to slavers....well lets just say I think the comparison falls short in a lot of ways.

Yes people are being exploited, yes their lives are hard and wretched causing them to seek A BETTER OPPORTUNITY HERE. Yes we need to work to find solutions to the problem, but...name me one pre-civil war African slave who came to America in search of a better life.

The Republicans, the real copratists...not the bible thumpers, the ones who actually run the institutions, want cheap labor. So they look the other way and disregard the law to reach the ends that they want irregardless of the consequences. (sound familiar?)

But nobody is plucking Mexicans from their homes to work...

And being complacent in looking the other way isn't going to work either. Something needs to be done.

[davsand]

79. Well, davepc, you took it WAY further than I intended...

My comment was intended as a comparison between the transport methods and attitudes. I am VERY sorry if you took it as anything more!

No, American employers, for the most part, do not beat employees and hold them as unwilling captives. And No, we don't go to Mexico and round up emigres. You are correct.

However, the lack of safety concerns used by the transport guys now is not much different than that of the slavers. They get the money up front and they could give a shit if anybody comes out of it alive. (If anything, the slavers had some vested interest in transportation safety because a dead cargo was worth nothing to them.)

There are vast problems, however with the treatment of illegals in the US, however, and it is pointless to ignore it. Very often migrant workers are living in substandard housing that is "provided" by the company--then paid for with deducted wages. Very often there IS a coercive relationship there between the worker and the employer, and the US should NOT allow this to continue for anyone--we are supposed to be better than that.

I realize that most people do not realize the safety issues involved for migrant workers, and I realize that most people do not realize the backbreaking physical labor that the typical migrant worker does. A lot of the intensive farm labor for production of food is hand work--meaning it can't be done by machines. Picking pumpkins, squash, and several other produce items is a great case in point.

It HURTS to do that work and some employers pay them LESS for that work because it increase profits. Because they are undocumented workers they have no one to speak for them and no recourse. When that is coupled with physical abuse it is pretty ugly stuff. Physical abuse is not uncommon.

You are right--this is NOT like the slaves' treatment at all. Sadly, in some ways it *is* pretty damn deplorable, however.


Laura

[Judi Lynn]

83. We also have destroyed the only income for Mexican farmers

right in their own homeland. We've bankrupted them right where they live. They are being destroyed by U.S. greed at HOME. How bad is that?

At the same time, Mexican farmers are in dire straits, due in large part to NAFTA. Since 1994, U.S. corn exports to Mexico have increased eighteen-fold as U.S. producers dump massive quantities of cheap corn on the market. The drop in corn prices caused by this dumping has crippled the 15 million Mexicans who rely on corn farming. Another 10 million farmers have been similarly devastated by the collapse in prices for coffee and sugar.

U.S. taxpayers are directly funding the crisis in the Mexican countryside. U.S. agribusiness giants like Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill are able to dump corn on the Mexican market because of the massive subsidies they receive from the U.S. government. Such subsidies enable U.S. farmers to produce corn and wheat well below production costs—an advantage not enjoyed by Mexican farmers. While Mexico gives about $720 per year to each farmer, the United States spends $20,800 per farmer. Last year the U.S. Congress approved a $70 billion increase in farm subsidies over the next 10 years.
(snip/...)

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v18n2/danaher_on_the_run.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I read that they had destroyed the livelihood of Mexican sugar cane producers years ago, then later I learned we have also destroyed their corn income. Now I see we have removed their wheat crop incomes.

Taking away their only means of survival leaves them where?

I appreciated reading your comments.

[Senior citizen]

73. How did we draw that border anyway?

Didn't we, um, annex part of Mexico? Couldn't have been one of our illegal wars of aggression, could it? I don't know the history, but if it turns out that we took something that rightfully belongs to them, the answer might just be to give it back.

Or at least give them equal access to it.

[davepc]

77. Sure did

But I think the people of the southwest United States might have something to say about it today...as much as Mexico would love to inherit the worlds 5th largest economy.

Equal access? Since when did open borders globalism become such a progressive ideal. I thought Republicans were into the free travel of capital and labor.

[AlphaCentauri]

80. Mexicans have a place in our history

If Americans ever succeeded in getting rid of illegal immigrants – deporting those who are already here and preventing the entry of others – there would be an outcry from Latino activists, civil libertarians and the business community.
But that's nothing. Do you know who might really be furious?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_mz1e10ruben.html

[Senior citizen]

92. Thank you, AlphaCentauri. Good link and good post.

If Cuckoobananas thinks Social Security is in trouble, and if Social Security is dependant on billions of dollars they take in from undocumented immigrants for which they'll never have to pay out anything in return, I can certainly see why Cuckoobananas wouldn't want to curtail undocumented immigrants. In fact it leaves little but racism to explain the motives of those who do.

There's a movie I hope to see someday called, "A Day Without a Mexican," which shows what would happen if all the undocumented workers suddenly disappeared. It isn't pretty. People can pretend they don't know who is watching their kids, mowing their lawns, cooking the meals, washing their dishes, cleaning their homes, harvesting their food, etc., etc., and they can even pretend that they "forgot" to pay Social Security for people they hired--often at below minimum wage, but if those people suddenly disappeared, the exploiting class would wake up in shock.

As someone else pointed out in this thread, it is like the drug war. So long as Americans create a demand for drugs, somebody will find a way to fill it. So long as we have a demand for cheap labor, somebody will find a way to fill it. I agree with the many DUers who have suggested that if you don't want undocumented workers, all you have to do is go after the people employing them. If immigration can arrest undocumented workers, they could certainly defer those arrests for a short time while they follow those workers to their places of employment and arrest the people causing the problem. But the minute the pukes started putting rich, white business owners in prison for employing undocumented workers, they'd stop getting campaign contributions from them. So they talk a good game and do nothing. If the Minutemen really want to stop undocumented workers from crossing the border, they'd be massing around the businesses and farms that employ them, and campaigning against the pukes those farms and businesses contribute to. All they want to do is whip up anti-immigrant sentiment and foment violence. Treating the symptom instead of the cause never solves anything.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. An important point from that article:

Last year, contributions by illegal immigrants made up about 10 percent of the Social Security surplus – the difference between what the system takes in and what it doles out.

[mbperrin]

112. Yep! They will never draw it, and they will always pay it!

Here's another chuckle from the article:
"Most of the Texas ranchers speak Spanish, and some of them acknowledged that it used to be common to put the illegal immigrants to work."

USED to be! Whew! Now that IS a knee-slapper!

That's why I have to settle for being a teacher; some illegal came across and took that brain surgeon job I had my heart set on! Or maybe I have a skewed point of view - my grandparents and parents were some of the Okies that went to California during the Dust Bowl; they worked cheap because the powers-that-be control the jobs. Now that many of us are better off, the powers-to-be have had to spread out a bit....

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

82. The hoods come off-Great phrase!-and they call themselves"progressive"?

DU amazes me. The hoods come off for this type of thing and people reveal their true biases.
Lets face it,
if a considerable portion of the "progessive" people are either anti-immigrant, anti PETA (peta protects the animals which are part of the "environment"), and anti-vegan (they're ok with supporting the corporate meat industry), or "sort of" war supporting (cheers when "our team" scores a hit on some Iraqis)
WE ARE IN TROUBLE.
There is much too much common ground with the fascists amongst liberal/progressives to ever initiate enough reforms for needed policy changes in this country.

Conclusiion: We are in for long term fascist (corporate) control--bye bye civil rights and labor unions.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

137. "peta protects the animals which are part of the "environment""

Dude, you picked the wrong day to play this, what with PETA bailing out their two employees who are currently charged with 62 felony counts of animal cruelty and 18 counts of misdemeanor illegal disposing of an animal carcass...

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

140. get over and read that DU post regarding that- and kiss off you idiot

[Greyhound]

84. Congratulations!

I believe you have included every one of the 'liberal' myths regarding the topic.
Of course you (I'm guessing by your handle) are retired, are a baby-boomer that has reaped all the benefits of what your parents built. Used that all up, and taken out a huge 'mortgage' on what you children should have inherited, ensuring that they will not be able to achieve the standard of living that was handed to you. Yours is the generation that runs everything, owns everything, and has spent their entire lives with both hands as well as mouths in the trough (of course I am aware that there are a great many boomers that didn't sell out, and have devoted their lives to improving the lives of others, but they are a tiny, statistically insignificant, minority).
So those of us that are left to fight over the table scraps that you weren't able to shove into your nearly limitless maw, are just a little upset about now having to compete with the impoverished masses that your generation created.

Nobody has said they don't believe that the employers shouldn't be fined or jailed. The Minutemen are a reaction to our governments refusal to injure their campaign contributors by enforcing the law. They don't want to do what they're doing, they have lives to lead, businesses to run, and hanging out in the desert heat all day or night is not on any of their 'to do b4 I die' lists.

I also have not read any body's opinion that says it's OK for illegals to come in as long as they're white. The fact is it's the illegals coming up from the cesspools to the south that is hurting us so badly.

The example of the cops actions in SD are indicative of what's wrong with the repugs, and why many of us support the dems, even though we do not agree with much of what they do and try to impose on everybody.

This issue has nothing to do with tolerance, unless you believe that anyone not from here should not be subject to our laws, and we therefore must tolerate their theft or our heritage. I'm sure you would have no problem with a group of 'unfortunates' coming to your home and announcing their intention to move in with you because their need is greater than yours. After all they were living in the squalor of the 'bad' side of town and you really don't need all this space. And besides you were only able to acquire your home through the inequitable capitalist system.

I agree that the new nazis are coming, but they're not just repugs, many, many, of them are wearing blue

[Senior citizen]

89. I'm pre-boomer, greyhound.

Apart from this cheap desktop and a juicer, I don't own anything. I was homeless for more than 20 years, during which time I failed to realize that anyone had handed me a high standard of living. I certainly don't own a home, and my senior building has a high percentage of immigrants who had to prove they were just as low income as I am in order to be eligible to move in. You've got the wrong guy, greyhound. The "greed is good" folks came along after my generation, and I resent them as much as you do. Pigs is pigs.

As for the inequitable capitalist system, the fact that it is inequitable is the extent of my knowledge, since I've never had any capital. The guy next door to me is Mexican and may well have been a farm worker when he was younger, but he had to prove citizenship to get into this building. The woman on the other side is African-American, the people across the hall are Phillipino, and the guy next to them is of Scottish heritage, I believe. I know one person who is middle class, but their family has two wage earners working two jobs each to make the payments on their mortgaged home. In addition to not owning or running anything, I haven't even consumed to excess, as I've spent many years living in places like Afghanistan and Honduras, in conditions even Peace Corps volunteers disdained.

I'm not sure that some of the new Nazis are wearing blue--we get a certain percentage of freepers on DU who only pretend to be liberal. DINOs (Democrats In Name Only) are exactly what we call them: DINOs.

[Greyhound]

98. First, let me apologize for the generational...

assumption, I have been amazed for my entire life that your generation never got the recognition or benefits you deserved (I suppose that has been somewhat corrected recently, but really I think it's mostly lip service. The Pigs are still up to their eyes in the trough).
The Blue-Suited Nazis I refer to are not here (at least I don't think so), but run the DNC.
This is the party elite that turned their backs on the most decent president we've had in my life-time (Carter), just because he had the temerity to tell the truth and try to head off the coming crisis. The same people that turn a blind eye to corporate shills like Lieberman & Clinton, because they're somewhat less objectionable than the repugs. The same DP that wasted the countless opportunities, over a period of decades, to fix the very problems (Oil/energy, humane foreign policy, Political corruption) that have led us here, because it would cost campaign contributers their obscene profits.

I could go on, but what's the point. :banghead:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

90. Great post.

BTW, I am a boomer, but my house is paid for, I don't run anything except my own life, and I live beneath my income, as my parents and grandparents did. Cheers.

I want to add- my income isn't that huge ;)

[lastliberalintexas]

91. Wow- "the cesspools to the south", huh?

The Minutemen are nothing more than a bunch of yahoos hopped up on testosterone and guns who should enlist and get their asses to the desert if they really want to patrol a border.

And theft of our *heritage*? WTF is that supposed to mean?

Your post is just more intra-class warfare aimed at people who are being exploited by our system and who are basically in the same boat as you. Why not re-direct that anger where it should be- at the employers who screw ALL workers, whether illegal or not? Or at the people running the show who set out to screw everyone, middle and lower class alike? Why worry so much about the poor migrant farm worker in CA or the construction worker in Texas busting their asses for $4 an hour when the elite are absconding with MILLIONS of your tax dollars?

Some of you people have your priorities out of whack.

[Greyhound]

101. blah, blah, blah...

They are cesspools, that's why they're coming here. They were made cesspools, largely by our foreign policy, instituted and enforced by and with the help of the DP (b4 you start crying about how it's all those evil repugs and the sainted dems had nothing to do with it).
Your opinion of the minute men is irrelevant.
I have stated over and over that the real solution to this problem is fining, jailing, and revoking the charters of persons, companies, and corporations that are convicted of hiring illegals.
I don't know about TX (this is quite purposeful as I have had a policy to never do business with any company based in TX or FL for many years), but here in AZ we have been in a building boom for at least a decade, and the illegals are certainly not "busting their asses for $4 an hour" here. They are making the same, depressed and depressing ($10 - $12 p/hr), wages as the few remaining legal workers. The influx of illegal immigrants is solely responsible for the collapse of wages in the construction industry, just as they were in the food & beverage, hospitality, and landscaping industries. I have not noticed, however, that houses, hotels, restaurants, or landscaping has become less expensive. Not to mention the epidemic unemployment of our own citizens that used to work in those fields.
America should take care of Americans first! My priorities are just fine, perhaps you should re-eximine yours.

[lastliberalintexas]

104. America would be better able to take care of Americans

and even quite a bit of the rest of the world if the poor, lower, working and middle class people of our country didn't fight quite so much amongst ourselves and if we instead focused on the ones really screwing us. I'm just sorry that you seem to place so much of the blame on the workers, rather than on the backs of the people with control.

[Greyhound]

108. Did you even read the post?

"I have stated over and over that the real solution to this problem is fining, jailing, and revoking the charters of persons, companies, and corporations that are convicted of hiring illegals."

How is this placing blame on the workers? I am all for the workers, the American workers. If I were king, the unions would be unnecessary because the people that actually do the work would reap the benefits of that work, not some useless executive that contributes nothing but sucks up enormous resources. Teachers would make so much money that the kids in the LBC would fight to keep the libraries open so they could study for a teaching cert. instead of dreaming of being the next Kobe.

Of course the illegals want to be here, it is better here, but the fact remains America isn't big enough to take the 6.5 billion or so people that would be better off somewhere other than where they are. Mexico's problems belong to Mexico. It is one of the most corrupt governments on the planet. They have engaged in all manner of 'crimes against humanity' yet they are our good allies. GMAFB.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

97. "theft of our heritage" "coming up from the cesspool"

This is one of the most hateful posts I've ever read on DU. Theft of OUR heritage? Do you have ANY knowledge of american history?

[Greyhound]

102. probably more than you do.

the crimes of the past are past. At some point we have to move forward, or we just end up like the middle-east. How far back do we go to redress the crimes committed by our ancestors? BTW, there is not a single person on the planet that is not ancestrally guilty of horrible actions if we look hard enough. My ancestors were used and killed building the Erie Canal, because slaves were valuable and you could always get another dumb mick to die for a dollar a day.
The heritage I refer to is/was the original concept of America. Of course the original model was a flawed compromise. There were those that advocated freedom for the slaves, equal opportunity and property rights for all people, including women. But the compromises happened, the decisions were made, and it was up to us to improve things as we went along. We made a few great decisions, a lot of good ones, and a bunch of really terrible one's.

We were given an opportunity to make this a better place, and we squandered it.

In the words of Dennis Leary "Life's hard, get a fuckin helmet."

[SemiCharmedQuark]

121. The original concept of America?

You mean a land where those seeking new opportunities could start? The "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free"? That concept? Right, everything the middle men DON'T stand for.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

127. The Minutemen are the KKK pure and simple with a new modicum of lynching

The heritage you invoke was not the one called "give me your poor tired masses." The heritage you invoke was the one that scapegoated anyone who got ahead.

WE can guess a WHOLE lot more about you than we can Senior Citizen. One of the things we can guess about you is that you BLAME those immigrants for economic situations they have nothing to do with such as the lack of job opportunities for you and your generation.

Let me tell you something- you deny rights..basic rights to anyone, you deny them to yourself.

You make a whole lot of assumptions about the poster you are addressing but your rhetoric belies many assumptions about you.

You want jobs? Stop having them transported elsewhere. Show me the last ten white men passed up for a job picking onions and I will concede your point.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

138. Not only that, but people who call the INS...

on undocumented workers are racists, too.

Just because they are here illegally does not mean that they should be punished for breaking the law, does it?

[Judi Lynn]

85. Absolutely great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. n/t

[DeaconBlues]

114. great job of telling only half the story

The people who got glanced by a car were part of a group who were in the process of throwing bricks and stones at police and others, and standing in front of the moving car beating on the hood. The driver was afraid for his life, and merely drove slowly through the crowd.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3398209&nav=HMO6aQYq

[luvLLB]

76. I don't understand why people think the Govt. wants to stop

illegal immigration. THEY DON'T!!!! without the illegal immigrants, we would not be able to afford housing or food. An earlier post mentioned $5.00 for a head of lettuce. Thats what it would cost you if you had to pay ME living wage to pick it. How about 350K for a new house. Do you think I'M going to drywall your new home for $6.00 and hour? Sure, make the homebuilder pay me more, and he will make you pay more. Sure, there are many solutions to the problem with illegal workers, but the Govt. doesn't want to stop it. They only pretend, just like the drug trade.

[sintax]

81. It's a scar not a border

El Norte steals and says Laissez Faire for the stolen goods, open borders for "Free Trade". Then hides behind fences and walls screaming Lazy Foreigner when those who try to grab a few crumbs from those stolen goods come across the White Mans artificial demarcation.

[Greyhound]

86. check these articles out, it appears you don't know the origins...

of 'Mexico', and the Southwestern U.S.
It is absolutely shameful, but to conclude that one set of thieves has priority over another gang is asinine.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/mx1853.htm
http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html

[AlphaCentauri]

107. "This issue has nothing to do with tolerance" but misguided history class

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0348/is_n4_v38/ai_20535772

[sintax]

142. I understand

quite clearly the origins and the present day circumstances.

Blood in your morning coffee anyone?

Our Word is Our Weapon.
I use to live right on the border and often helped the so-called immigrants across the border.

Scottsdale is the problem. Western wealth is the problem.

Poverty is not the problem just the symptom of affluenza.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

139. Yeah! It's "Tha Man"....

keeping us down!

[Pharlo]

96. The root cause of the Latino (NOT just Mexicans) immigration

to the US is the standard of living in their home countries.

And until that issue is addressed, a 40 foot high fence, more guards, more deportations -- will be insufficient to stop it.

The vast majority of Latinos who come to America want nothing more than the opportunity to work at a job that allows them to support their family. And, since there is nothing available at home, they go where the work is located - the United States of North America. Many Latinos whom I have worked with would much rather be back home (Mexico, Honduras, Costa Rica) than in Wisconsin....(Hell, from November through March I'd rather be in Latin America too - unfortunately, I can't afford it either.)

I'm a caucasion American living in the upper Midwest, but if I lived in Latin America in the conditions many of these Latinos do, I would do my damndest to get into los Estados Unidos. I think many of the individuals posting here would as well.

Get deported - try again. Put a fence up - Climb it. Can't find a job at a factory - no problem, a lot of gringas want domestic help.

Face facts - if there were sufficient SURVIVAL level jobs in their home countries, they wouldn't be coming into the US.

It isn't like Jorge, Jose, and Maria were sitting at the kitchen table in Jalisco one day having a conversation about how bored they were when one of them had the brilliant idea to hike to the US so they could take a job away from a native US citizen - Anything to keep the boredom at bay.

[Senior citizen]

105. Thanks--I forgot Nicaragua!

How could I have forgotten all the refugees fleeing the repressive regimes we've sponsored all over the world, the conflicts we've instigated all over the world, the torture (School of the Americas) we've taught people to practice all over the world, etc., etc.

Not all undocumented workers are so-called economic refugees. Some would be eligible for political asylum if not for the fact that our government has ties to the repressive regimes they're fleeing.

A lot of people attempting to enter through Mexico are from Central and South American countries we have made unliveable for them--Mexico isn't the only country we've adversely impacted.

I apologize to all victims of torture who have attempted to come to the United States because we once had a reputation as a defender of human rights, only to find that we had sponsored the torture they were fleeing. It must be even more devastating than the torture itself.

On edit: Nominating.

[Judi Lynn]

100. It should be pointed out, again:American agriculture has destroyed

the ONLY income many Mexican workers have. Why not take the time to realize this?

Effects of "Free Trade" Agricultural Policies on Small Farmers and Food Security

CAFTA and the FTAA would consolidate and expand free market policies that have already devastated rural communities under NAFTA and the WTO.

Loss of Small Farm Income

The devastation of Mexican corn farmers due to NAFTA most sharply exemplifies the horrifying effects of these policies. After NAFTA eliminated Mexican quotas for corn, artificially-priced U.S. corn flooded the market. U.S. agribusinesses typically dump corn on the Mexican market at prices 30 percent below the cost of production. Before NAFTA, Mexico only imported about 2.5 million tons of corn per year. In 2001, they imported over 6 million tons of corn. The price of Mexican corn fell 70 percent. Millions of small family corn farmers have been left without a source of income, and have been forced to abandon their communities in search of a way to feed their families. The bedrock of traditional Mexican rural life, corn farming families, have been torn apart by NAFTA.
(snip/...)

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/cafta/Agriculture.html.pf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Through one program or another, American subsidies have made earning a simple living almost impossible for Mexicans in the mostly rural population.

Our government plans have also wiped out their sugar farming workers, as well as their wheat farmers, etc.

If you don't want desperate people trying to find work in the only remaining place available, stop the programs that have destroyed their only means of surviving IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

[Greyhound]

109. Hear, Hear...

The common factor for all of these schemes is the corporations will maximize profit while those that do the work get screwed.

[AlphaCentauri]

116. What I want for my children

I would like my kids to go to college and make something of themselves and succeed in whatever makes them happy. I don't want them to be farm workers, nanis, gardeners or day labors.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

123. are you an immigrant?

if so, your family should not be forced into the lower rungs of the ladder just because of your race or immigrant classification.
Just realize immigrants need to have an edge of some sort to compete with those who would like to have you excluded from the better job market simply because of your background-
-by an edge I mean you have to train harder for the job than the "whyte" people(college etc) or come up with some skill or idea they "can't " do-Many "murkins" would like you to stay low(Less comnpetition for them) and they would prefer immigrants to do jobs they "won't" do. But if you're smarter, more motiviated, more determined, what can they say or do to hold you back?

good luck.

(I assume you're an immigrant or why else would you post that)--

[alfred e bush]

129. amazing

that people believe cheap labor keeps prices down

it probadly just keeps profits and management wages soaring

[Judi Lynn]

130. No doubt there.......

Welcome to D.U., alfred e bush! http://lednerg.home.comcast.net.nyud.net:8090/alfred_w_bush.gif

[MisterP]

134. I like Simcox's possessed red eyes--or maybe "Azrael"'s?