Police shoot, kill man at Seattle Federal Courthouse

[nikraye]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050620/ap_on_re_us/seattle_courthouse

[Kraklen]

1. Was he black and unarmed?

Story says he was carrying what appeared to be a WWII hand grenade. Given the SPD, that could have been a pineapple.

[ananda]

2. pineapple, eh.

In Houston, it -would- have been a pineapple, and they'd still get away with it.

Sue

[Kraklen]

5. That's what I'm getting at.

Killer cop: "I swear, ladies and gentleman of the grand jury, I thought the unarmed, elderly black man had a gun."

Grand jury: "Sounds good to us."

[stillcool]

4. or....an Iraq war vet? n/t

[progressivebydesign]

6. Um. wearing CAMO, holding a grenade...

I guess you'd rather just have a nice fireside chat with the guy to see what's up with him. I'd say he was asking for it.. really.

[Kraklen]

7. Well, he may have been wearing camo.

But he wasn't holding a grenade.

[gort]

9. white male, 50's. Holding a WW2 era grenade

The grenade was non-functioning.

His backpack had a cutting board in it.

Just saw the news conference. The man was known to the local police and courthouse security.

He failed to comply to commands. After 25 minutes, police took lethal action.

The man's name has not been released. He apparently was known as anti-goverment and had been involved with the courts over the past year and a half.

[SouthernDem2004]

11. How do you know the grenade was non-functioning?

[gort]

12. Police at news conference had two pictures

of the grenade posted on an easel. They said it contained no explosive.

The grenade pictured looked like it was from the WW2 era with its pin still in.

I don't know if it was real or not.

I'm not a reporter, so pardon if it appeared I was making an assumption.

My opinion is that this was a suicide by cop.

[stevedeshazer]

3. Sad

Sounds like the fellow was deranged.

[freeplessinseattle]

8. He sounds schizophrenic, seriously

the agitated moving of his hands along with everything else rings of schizophrenia, poor man was probably let out of the mental health wards left to take his meds on his own.

I don't understand why they didn't taser him, they seem to like that nowadays and it would have been effective for getting the "grenade" from him. They should have been prepared at the courthouse for god's sake!

[ismnotwasm]

10. It's very sad, and will be sadder if this person was a Veteran

War damages some soldiers so severely, that they never recover. And if they had preexisting mental illness, then it's that much worse.

[earth mom]

13. What TOTAL BULL!

He was flapping his hands-so they had to shoot him dead?! Why not shoot him in the leg or arm? They could have overtaken him then. The guy was more than likely mentally ill, but he could have also had a mental disability. :grr:

[SouthernDem2004]

17. He also had what looked like a live grenade.

[CEShooter]

23. Shooting a limb is 99% just Hollywood or TV

I'm assuming you meant arms as well as hands when you referred to the flapping. So you want the cops to shoot at a moving limb only a couple of inches wide? That's a good shot for even the best trained (ie SWAT) officers and would more than likely end up escalating the situation without ending the threat from the individual.
Okay, so we'll look at the leg shot. Try being agitated and doing some form of arm movements with your legs remaining perfectly still. You'll still get some movement in your legs unless you are mentally focused on not moving them which the deceased most certainly was not. So again, you are asking the cops to shoot at a moving target only a couple inches wide while under the full adrenaline surge of an agitated person with possibly a live grenade. In a perfect world this would happend but given the firearms training of a vast majority of officers this simply isn't realistic.

I don't mean to tear you down, but I see the question of "just shooting a limb" pop up after every police shooting that ends in a fatality and I always feel bad for the officers involved because that's asking a lot from someone who is just as human as you and I.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi CEShooter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Dover]

14. A teenager was shot and killed for doing much less than this

just recently in Austin, Tx.

The cops are out of control and it may be a problem in their training programs.

[SouthernDem2004]

18. What exactly are they supposed to do with a guy that has what looks

like a live hand grenade?

[Evergreen Emerald]

24. who was "out of control?"

The guy threatening to kill those in the federal courthouse or the police trying to protect them?

[Beaverhausen]

15. What, no tasers in Washington state?

[SouthernDem2004]

16. Hmmm. An electrical charge through a grenade. Bad juju I am afraid. /nt

[icymist]

19. Living will found on this man according to KIRO710 @6:13 p.m.(pst)

Looks like suicide by cop. Also, read how this story unfolded at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1565444

[maseman]

20. Give them some slack

I agree that many times black males get the short end of the legal and police stick. But come on. The guy was in a court room pretending he had a live grenade. What are the police to do if he doesn't comply? Agreed they may have tried to shoot him in a limb, but it is tough to shoot any moving target. Two people in my family are policemen and they both said that they would have shot the individual due to the appearance of heavy weaponry for a civilian in a public place.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi maseman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[obxhead]

21. their tasers must have been dead

or their hand cuffs were broken

It does sound like he was doing something stoopid enough to get shot though.

[NoKillShelterGuy]

22. Thank God they did not Taser him....

Tasers kill, don't'cha know...

[dejaboutique]

27. I think it was "death by cop"

They said he had a living will in his backpack so they think it was death by cop. that building has recently become a fortress and has a fortress of security, he knew he would be shot. on local news they also said he was covering the bottom of the grenade with his hand so they wouldnt know it was hollow. death by cop here. before you bash the cops get the facts.

[geniph]

28. I don't know about you,

but personally, I wouldn't use a Taser on someone who had his hand on what looked like the pin for a live grenade, nor would I throw myself on the damn grenade. Anyone who brings a grenade into a Federal courthouse has to have a pretty fair idea that he's liable to be shot. Shooting him before he pulls the pin is by far the safest option for everyone in the vicinity. Say the grenade was live, and he had his hand on the pin. So you Tase him - and his hand convulses and pulls the pin by reflex.

No, this fellow was seriously deranged - read the full account of his previous exploits - and this was suicide by cop. He knew they'd shoot him. That's why he went there.

[opiate69]

29. Deranged? Hardly.. Depressed? Most assuredly.

This is the man who was killed yesterday:

His name was Perry Manley, and he'd spent the last 15 years as a tireless fathers' rights and child support reform advocate.