'We had to kill him for snitching,' sailor says in video shown at court-ma

[saigon68]

Thursday, June 23, 2005


'We had to kill him for snitching,' sailor says in video shown at court-martial

By David Allen, Stars and Stripes
Pacific edition, Thursday, June 23, 2005


http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=29909

CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa — As Seaman Adam Palecco lay on the ground, his throat cut and blood pouring from numerous other knife wounds, his friend squatted near his head and watched the life drain from the sailor’s eyes.

“I was looking at his face and he was looking at me, just staring,” Seaman Robert L. Person Jr. said in a video re-enactment of the Feb. 2 murder. Person told investigators he and two other sailors stabbed Palecco to death because he was going to “snitch” about their involvement in a shoplifting ring.

“He was lying there, bubbling sounds still coming from his mouth, so I stabbed him in the chest,” Person said in the video, as he squatted on the ground next to the head of a mannequin used to represent the murdered sailor.

“Then I sat down like this and just stared at him,” Person said unemotionally.

This story could also be titled

RECRUITING FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL.

[fooj]

1. OMG!

:cry:

[IndianaGreen]

2. Support the troops!

And ask no questions!

[saigon68]

4. Goose step on down the road

Freedom is on the march

[Vladimir]

89. How dare you, you troophating

anti-American pinko commie ho? :sarcasm:

[okieinpain]

3. wow, life truly is stranger then fiction. WOW.....

[Qanisqineq]

5. This kind of shit happens too often nowadays

and it is not just in the military. When did getting charged with shoplifting become worse than getting charged with murder? Don't these shitheads know... oh god, nevermind. What complete fucking idiots.

[Kenneth ken]

6. damn

the whole leadership of this base needs to be thoroughly examined.

The rape story you posted apparently happened at the same base. Or maybe I am missing something, and that's just where couts martial are held.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[woodsprite]

9. Examples for such hiring practices come straight from the admin in the WH.

[leftchick]

14. yes indeed

The best example of bad recruiting of all time. :(

[geek tragedy]

21. Please don't. You're just going to disgrace DU.

This is the same as digging up a story about a crime committed by two black men and saying "That's blacks in general."

[RandomKoolzip]

26. I totally agree, geek tragedy.

Honestly, what is the point? I know guys who are serving in the military who are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet. None of them have ever thought about slashig a "snitch's" throat. These assholes were psychos to begin with, it's not the military's fault.

Like your example, posting more articles denouncing the military for isolated incidents like this is like blaming heavy metal for teen suicide: a broad brush, sloppily applied, with malicious intent.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Excuse me, but have you personally served in the military?....

...Just curious how you've managed to shape your opinions other than just having known "guys who are serving in the military"?

[geek tragedy]

32. What does that have to do with anything?

The OP has a clear agenda: To SMEAR all US servicepeople as criminals and thugs.

It's despicable, and a gift to the rightwing.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. If you had served in the military, you might have a clue or two as to....

..as to the types of people that have chosen to join the "all volunteer" military since the draft was ended back in the mid-to-late 1970s.

When I served in the military from 1976-1981, I had the opportunity to compare guys who had been drafted for Vietnam and decided to stay in the military, and guys who had volunteered for the military after the draft was ended. We were in a recession with higher than normal unemployment, and we got all kinds of "interesting" people in our unit. For the most part, these were guys that could not find a job in the real world, and/or had failed in some way in the real world, and/or had been giving choices between jail and the military.

IMHO, when you have no personal experience on which to base your personal opinions, you just make YOURSELF look bad when attacking someone that does have that experience.

[geek tragedy]

49. That's your personal experience. And that was thirty years ago.

That's no excuse for smearing the current people in uniform.

Just like a former Jew has no right to say anti-Jewish things.

If you don't like it, there are plenty of places to bash and smear US soldiers. Just not here.

[anotherdrew]

55. "bash" and "smear" - Republican code for the Truth?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Review his post. He stated clearly, "in general". How do you define....

...the phrase, "in general"?

And as far as your comment that "there are plenty of places to bash and smear US soldiers. Just not here.", why does that sound an awful lot like "Love it, or leave it"?

And I'm very curious why you chose to state the following, "Just like a former Jew has no right to say anti-Jewish things." So, are you really stating if you no longer belong to a certain religion, and/or creed, and/or culture, and/or organization that you can no longer be critical of that certain religion, and/or creed, and/or culture, and/or organization?? Do you have the same opinion of whistle-blowers that leave their organization before blowing the whistle? So, how does that square up with your earlier definition of "progressive values"?

[geek tragedy]

66. "in general" means it applies to the organization as a whole. When

you are talking about "criminals" and "half-wits" being representative of the military in general, you are saying that, as a GENERAL rule, people in the military are criminals and half-wits.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. "In general" does not mean "all". Period. Your case is getting weaker...

...with each additional post, assuming that you had ANY case at all.

[marbuc]

85. No,

he is saying the military is recruiting from the bottom of the barrel. There are far too many Lindy England's in positions of great importance.

[geek tragedy]

100. When were the defendants in this case recruited?

Let's see now. They were involved in a shoplifting ring was operating as early as September 2004. Which means these guys had likely been recruited in early 2004 or in 2003.

Again, you can't claim that the military is recruiting the bottom of the barrel and then turn around and say that you're not criticizing the character of the soldiers in general.

[marbuc]

105. I can indeed

The military exploits "low hanging fruit," catching the dim-wits like fish in a net. This does not mean all personnel are dim-witted, or even most enlisted men and woman. I will say that it takes a "special" person to enlist during way time.

[LibertyorDeath]

76. The OP can say whatever the fuck they want within DU rules

They are reporting a factual story that I for one want to know about.

Do these semi-retarded cretin's represent most of the military

no they represent exactly who they are by what they do.

You make DU look bad by trying to limit legitimate discussion about

a serious topic.

[leftchick]

88. and it is getting worse...

The US military is so desperate for recruits their current standards for entry are hitting an all time low. They are showing drug users how to pass drug screenings and directing high school drop outs how to fake diplomas. Yeesh what a way to run a Military! :eyes:

[RandomKoolzip]

39. No, I haven't, but that's besides the point.

Are you saying that you know lots of criminal, throat slashing, shoplifting scumbags like the ones in the article above serving in the military? I don't. The ones I know are decent guys.

I had no idea that I had to personally serve in the military in order to have an opinion on it. I guess I should reserve my opinion on George W. Bush, too, since I've never been president. Maybe I'm fucked up because I try to see the larger picture and not form my opinions about large groups of people based on isolated incidents....yeah, maybe that IS a fault. :shrug:

My father served in the Vietnam War and somehow never managed to go nuts, go on shoplifing runs, or kidnap anyone, or rape children. I guess he was an exception.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. See my post #46, and apply it to yourself.

[RandomKoolzip]

54. That's an interesting anecdote, and I can kinda see what you're getting at

but I still think it's quite unfair for the OP and others on this thread to use such a broad brush when talking about the folks serving in uniform today.

Plus, it's threads like this that make the RW strategists happy, since now they have "evidence" that "liberals hate the troops."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. It's unfortunate that you and the "geek" have chosen to completely....

...overlook the phrase used by Saigon 68, namely that he was referring to the military "in general". He did NOT use the term "all" at any point in his post, did he?

Also, and IMHO, the only reason that RWs would think they have "'evidence' that 'liberals hate the troops'", is because of posts like yours and the "geek"'s drawing attention to what the two of YOU believe is "evidence".

As far as what the RWs think, I've grown very tired of worrying about what the RWs think about anything. Period. Additionally, the time for apologizing to the RWs for anything is OVER. That is a sign of REAL weakness, as far as they're concerned.

[leftchick]

108. very well said MLD!

I agree completely with you and saigon.

:applause:

[NNN0LHI]

114. Yea, MLD is on it. He is on fire. I learned a lot from this thread n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Saigon 68 served in the military....how about you? What do you know....

...personally about the military's current recruiting practices?

Additionally, I've seen much, much worse posted to DU. Very few people have have stated that those posters were a "disgrace to DU".

[geek tragedy]

31. This thread is a disgrace to DU. It is has one purpose: to SMEAR all

troops as being idiots, thugs, criminals, and murderers.

Again, if this thread were about two Mexicans or Arabs or African-Americans committing a crime like this, followed by comments about how most Mexicans or Arabs or African-Americans are "criminals, half-wits, and thugs" it would be racist and the poster would be tombstoned.

And I don't give a fuck if the OP served. That gives him no right to smear our current troops.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. That's your OPINION, isn't it? I notice you didn't answer my question....

...about whether or you had served in the military. Did you?

[geek tragedy]

35. The OP stated that these people represent "the military in general."

For whatever fucked up psychological reasons, the OP has decided to break DU rules and whip up hatred of our servicepeople.


From the DU rules:

<snip>
Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.
<snip>

<snip>
Do not post broad-brush smears against US service people. Do not blame the troops for the mistakes of their officers or their Commander-in-Chief. Show the appropriate level of respect to those individuals who have put their own lives on the line to defend this country.
<snip>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. So, are you DEFENDING the sailors in the article? What kind of....

..."proper respect" should we be showing these people?

Additionally, the word "bigot" is defined as follows:

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

<http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=bigot&x=0&y=0>


So, can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saigon 68 is "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"?

I could actually make a better case for bigotry based on your posts attacking Saigon 68.

[geek tragedy]

62. Not defending the criminals. I'm saying they don't represent the

vast majority of the people in uniform.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. Define the phrase "in general".

[anotherdrew]

40. bull-crap - why must you generalize so? the story is about what it's about

There may be a tie-in with the admitted need currently to lower recruiting standards. Only the mind of a right wing idiot could take that to mean that therefore ALL service members are on the low end of recruitment desirability.

[geek tragedy]

43. Don't insult me because you can't even read.

The OP stated that:

1. The title of the story should be "Recruiting from the bottom of the barrel."

2. " It's the military in general."

3. "They are recruiting criminals, thugs and half-wits. There is a whole lot more to post."

I have 2 more I am going to post-- just from today."

[anotherdrew]

52. so?

1. The title of the story should be "Recruiting from the bottom of the barrel."

: They ARE, but that doesn't mean ALL are at the bottom, why must you jump to that idea?

2. " It's the military in general."
: this is specific in response to another poster saying that the leadership at the Okinawa base should be examined. "It's the military in general." is in response to that, thus meaning: "The whole military leadership should be examined in general." Which might be kinda hard to do, but hardly adds to your intentional misunderstanding, and mis-characterization of the point of this story.

3. "They are recruiting criminals, thugs and half-wits. There is a whole lot more to post. I have 2 more I am going to post-- just from today."

: Well, from what I've heard this is true, it's apparently MUCH easier to get in to the military in a combat MOS now-a-days.


So just because you know some swell folks in the military, that doesn't mean everyone in the military is swell. Nor doesn the OP mean everyone is bad, just that a lot more bad ones are getting in now.

[geek tragedy]

65. Everyone in the services was recruited. If you say that the people

the military is recruiting are half-wits and criminals, you're saying that the people in the military are half-wits and criminals.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. Define the phrase "in general".

[anotherdrew]

79. understand the context, take a breath and look again...

All he was saying is that the military leadership in general needs to take a look at how to reduce the number of "bad apples" that end up in other countries doing bad-apple things. When one of these kids winds up raping or committing murder in another country, it DOES make the US look bad to the locals.

Maybe you need to brush up on some English grammar, but _in general_ means "many but not all", so even if you wanted to take the "in general" comment the way you seem to want to, it still wouldn't mean that he's 'smearing broadly everyone'

So anyway, three cheers for our good boys in the service... forced to kill and 'place themselves subject to judgment' all at the behest of an illegitimately elected fraud who has no sensible vision, no exit strategy, doesn't 'support the troops" in ANY meaningful way other than feel-good pep talks. Bush has broadly smeared the Honor of the US military more than anyone in history.

[geek tragedy]

95. If someone says that Puerto Ricans "in general" are a too lazy and prone

to criminal behavior, they're not smearing all Puerto Ricans?

Poppycock.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. Perhaps you could be asked the same question....

...what did you fail to understand about Saigon 68's statement, "It's the military in general"? That clearly tells me that he doesn't believe that the entire military is guilty of "recruiting from the bottom of the barrel", only "the military in general".

Additionally, we have all read the articles that all branches of the military, to include the National Guard, are failing to meet their recruiting goals for this year. Since there is no military draft as of this writing, the military is left with basically one option to increase their recruiting, and that is to widen the filter used to screen potential recruits.

Widening the filter usually means that one or more general requirements are waived. Those requirements would include, but not be limited to the following:

1. Graduating from high school, or having a GED;
2. Not having any medical issues;
3. Not having any legal issues;
4. Being able to score above the minimum proficiencies on qualification testing (math, english, etc.);
5. Being a US citizen, and/or permanent resident.

IMHO, when the military lowers the basic requirements for signing up a recruit, you tend to get a lower class of recruit.

[geek tragedy]

63. "The military in general" and "the entire military" mean the exact same

thing.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. Wrong. "In general" does not mean "all". Define "in general".

[Raknrun]

67. Recruiting goals

Though interestingly, it turns out, while the army is behind for the year, as I understand it the marines and air force are ahead of their goals. A result of the lowered standards?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. "A result of lowered standards"? Absolutely. Dead on.

[Coventina]

115. Statements about the military can not be compared with ethnic groups

The military is a created organization that is self-selecting. It chooses who to accept and who to reject.

Ethnicity is inborn, innate.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

[saigon68]

30. I won't coddle thugs and hoodlums

And your "STRAW MAN" argument about what I'M doing to disgrace DU by posting the truth is insulting to me.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. And you're doing exactly what you're accusing Saigon 68 of doing,....

...isn't that correct? Let's review your comments toward Saigon 68, shall we? You stated the following:

It's bigotry, it's hatred, it's blatantly unfair, and it is in direct violation of progressive values.

You are also violating DU rules, in addition to being a hate-monger.

You're getting all of that from a single post? Interesting.

Maybe you should review the DU rules yourself.

[geek tragedy]

38. Criticizing hate-mongering and rule-breaking is the same as hate-mongering

and rule-breaking?

What color is the sky in your world?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. The sky in my world is blue...I don't think your world has a sky at all.

[anotherdrew]

42. He is NOT smearing anyone, why are you smearing him?

[anotherdrew]

56. greektragedy - so you would cover this up least the freepers get mad at us

NEVER show fear to those damn bullies, "the right" can kiss my crack. The rights pundits are nothing but an intellectually dishonest band of shit throwing screech monkeys paid to believe what they're told, when the day comes I give one small damn what they think, I'll know they must have won.

[geek tragedy]

68. It's not a matter of getting the right "mad" at us. It's engaging in

behavior that the right likes to attribute to us.

The Democratic party does NOT stand for the idea of bashing our servicepeople. Freepers who say that are liars.

But, stupid people on the left who post troop-hating material give material support to those lies.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Once again, define the phrase "in general". Additionally, tell us....

...how you're upholding DU rules and progressive values by calling other DU posters "stupid"?

By the way, "troop-hating" is YOUR phrase, not one that Saigon 68 or myself would ever use.

[Gunit_Sangh]

8. I was in the Navy in the 70's

And I can't say this surprises me. We had an incident on one of the ships I served on where a guy snitched on some people doing drugs. This dude had to be kept under armed guard for a few days until transportion off the ship was arranged (we were out at sea at the time).

If he had been left alone, there is little doubt that he would have *fallen* overboard.

[Gman]

10. Why were this guy's talents being wasted in Okinawa

when he would have excelled at Gitmo?

[mediaman007]

11. Wow! The dead man was probably a liberal do-gooder, or

was he a right-wing zealot who believed in the Word literally. The Freepers will have a hard time coming down on this one.

[Supersedeas]

20. a snitch is a snitch is a snitch to the Freeps

[marbuc]

86. If it doesn't support their world view

Freepers don't read it. If they do, they call it lies perpetrated liberal media and military/America haters.

[Love Bug]

12. I'm surprised they went to the trouble of stabbing him

Usually when sailors want to eliminate someone, they wait until they are out to sea and that person just misses muster one morning. Guess they couldn't wait for their next cruise.

[ckramer]

13. No wonder the recruitment is down

Any sane person wouldn't want to join a place where there are lots of rednecks.

[Bonescrat]

15. Guess I just don't understand people...

"As Seaman Adam Palecco lay on the ground, his throat cut and blood pouring from numerous other knife wounds, his friend squatted near his head and watched the life drain from the sailor’s eyes."

Friend?

I have a lot of friends...

A definition of Friend that I'm not aware of?

Hmmm... speechless...

[Art_from_Ark]

17. Well, you know what they say...

"With friends like that, who needs enemies?"

[lateo]

16. horrible

I hope they give him the firing squad.

[gratuitous]

18. Somebody tell me again, quick

Just how "honorable" it is to serve in the military, and how well our freedom is being defended by our noble men and women in uniform? Because I have a hard time justifying a defense budget over $400 billion annually that wipes out civilians, cannibalizes its own, and returns so little for the investment of our country's time, treasure and talent.

[Straight Shooter]

19. Most people despise a snitch

Why else would Little Boots and his gang go after people who report on their wrongdoings with the intent of shutting them up?

Same thing, different level. These guys would have gotten away with it if they had had "enforcers" on loan from the White House.

Remember the whistleblower of Los Alamos? He was considered a snitch for doing the right thing by the thugs that almost beat the life out of him. Our society's morals are totally upside down.

Most people despise a snitch, but not to this extreme degree.

[Zorbuddha]

87. What about Sybel Edmonds? Is she a snitch?

Whistleblower/snitch?

Rat/snitch?

Distinctions are in the details, I reckon.

[geek tragedy]

22. Trying to help the wingnuts by painting DU as a troop-hating place?

Because that's what this kind of crap does.

[RandomKoolzip]

23. Yup. It sucks.

Extrapolating from this article that ALL the troops serving are murderous, moral-less thugs is a despicable act of exaggeration, and does nothing but give the RW fuel. Don't fall for it, DUers.

[geek tragedy]

24. Because if someone posted a story of heroism or generosity about troops,

the OP would dismiss it as propaganda and meaningless.

I wonder what would happen to a thread about two Mexicans or Arabs committing a crime, followed by a comment about how despicable Mexicans or Arabs are?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arikara]

25. I don't get that at all...

are you saying that crimes performed by US soldiers should not be reported or discussed because it might look like we don't "support the troops"? I hope that isn't what you are saying.

[geek tragedy]

27. No, it is taking isolated incidents and using them as commentary on a huge

number of people.

As I said in another post, change the individuals from soldiers to blacks or Hispanics, and tell me if this thread would be a good thing.

[saigon68]

41. It is what it is saying

It wants censorship

[geek tragedy]

44. And the other it wants to stir up hatred against US servicepeople.

Unfortunately, I am in compliance with DU rules. You are not.

If you want to launch broad-based smears against US servicepeople, do it somewhere where hating the troops is an acceptable message.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. Is calling other DU posters "stupid" in compliance with DU rules?.....

How about trying to suppress another poster's opinions, which by the way is the real definition of the word, "bigot"?

Define the phrase "in general".

[Lilith Velkor]

104. Give a flying fuck what the wingnuts think?

I don't.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

45. Yeah! It's from that hate mongering Stars and Stripes!!!! (what?)

It's a military news source?

Oh.

Nevermind.

(BTW, I could care less what the wingnuts think about me/us)

[geek tragedy]

47. The OP's comments CLEARLY indicate a purpose to launch a broad-based

smear against all servicepeople.

Would an article about two Puerto Ricans committing a crime, followed by comments that "It's Hispanics in general" be acceptable to you?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

50. I could not disagree with you more as to the OP's intention. n/t

[geek tragedy]

51. "It's the military in general"

Yep, no intent to launch a broad-based smear there.

:sarcasm:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. That was not in the OP...

Nominated and kicked.

[geek tragedy]

60. The original poster said it. eom

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. Define the phrase "in general". I'm going to keep asking you....

...until you answer the question correctly.

[TheWatcher]

107. And he'll keep avoinding it.

Because he clearly can't. Par for the course for that one, actually.

[Texasgal]

82. Geek..

I agree with you. I have seen alot of troop bashing here on DU recently and it's really disheartening.

I am not saying that the OP is wrong by his statements, but the story alone just really dosen't need to be posted as it produces this feeding frenzy type posts that gets everyone all hyped up.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

83. So, do you believe like "geek" that other DU posters are "stupid"....

...for posting their opinions on this board?

Since I've gotten nothing back from "geek", can you define the phrase, "in general"?

And are you also stating that newsworthy items, no matter how controversial, should not be posted to DU boards because, "it produces this feeding frenzy type posts that gets everyone all hyped up"? Isn't one of the purposes of DU to promote thought-provoking discussion? When you make this kind of comment, aren't you really promoting censorship?

[Texasgal]

84. Jeez o' peat.....

Calm down buddy. *sigh*

The only thing I agreed with Geek about was troop bashing. It happens here alot more than we all think.

What really is the purpose of this story? So that everyone could jump on the " We're not bashing the troops, but alot of them are trash?" bandwagon? C'mon....

And please... don't bring up the freedom of speech crap! I really don't care what get's posted, but when you are not having a "meaningful" debate about it, then why post it at all. The OP had to recognize that this had potential for flames.

[MisterP]

91. does it have to have a purpose? it's news

insinuations are often hidden behind the troops, ya'know...

[malmapus]

94. Got your back Texasgal...

Media, I'm sorry but the military I was in was a far cry from the one you served in from the sound of it.

I can say that there were only a handful of "bad apples" in my time in service that I could see. I think in the early and mid 90s the US has a military it could be proud of as a all-volunteer force.

I'm with Texasgal in that I only agree with Geek about troop bashing. I've had to go into a few threads lately where people have this notion of what goes on in a soldiers mind and what they are fighting for.

Y'know if I was a kid fresh out of high school, and didn't know better...espicially with today's economy. I would probaly would have signed up at the begining of this shit. This is the country that W has created by f***king the economy up and making it hard for people, let alone young adults, to find jobs.

Then he runs our military to the ground with this stupid war of his, and makes the Army lower its recruiting standards because *surprise surprise* nobody is signing up for it.

Trying not to offend anyone here, but just saying whats on my mind.

[geek tragedy]

101. People who volunteer for the military often come from disadvantaged

background and simply don't have the opportunities that more fortunate people--such as myself--had.

Condescending remarks about the troops in the field, imo, often reflect class bias.

[Texasgal]

103. Agreed...

If we sit around and bash the troops, what is that *really* saying about us?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Define the phrase "in general". Define the word "bigot". Tell us how....

...your use of the word, "stupid", as applied to other DU posters, is in compliance with DU rules.

I don't recall that Saigon 68 mentioned any religion, and/or race, and/or creed, and/or culture in his original post. He did refer to the military "in general".

Again, define the phrase "in general".

[Tyrone Slothrop]

90. Since you keep asking for it

Here's the definition of "generally" from the dictionary. Which is essentially the same as "in general", yes?

"adv 1: usually; as a rule; "generally it doesn't rain much here"

2: without distinction of one from others; "he is interested in snakes generally"

3: without regard to specific details or exceptions; "he interprets the law generally" "

Happy with the "without distinction of one from others" definition?

[geek tragedy]

98. "in general" is plain in its meaning--it applies to the military as a

whole. QED, a broad-based statement about the military and the people in it.

[whatever4]

92. Lot of comments

here, and a lot of irritation too. IMHO, you all ought to save it, because we know this military has been run into the ground, and forced to treat humans worse than dogs. I've read the stories of how shocking just the mentality of the troops has been for some new arivials. So, it doesn't much matter if the trooper in question is ethical or not; it becomes a matter how how strongly he's able to defend his position and his beliefs in the face of a hostile majority. Most of us can't do that very well, and by definition, the military strongly encourages conformity, along with teamwork, which can become nothing more than group think.

How many of us resist strong pressure to agree with everyone else? Here's a clue; it's not normal human behavior. Most people, the very vast majority, will bend to a majority over just about anything. It's a fact.

But it speaks not at ALL to the ethics of the person. Most of us are ethical, even in the military, of which I was part for more than a decade.

This military isn't my military; it's more than half guard/reserve/civilian contractor, and when they blew off GC, they blew away any chance these people had to remain human. That would not have flown, when I was in, with any but a very few rather simple individuals. The people I worked with, in the flghtline and in the electronic communications jobs? Top notch, some of the best and hardest working people I've ever known.

So, I resent some of the quibs I've heard here, about how the military has a lot of loosers. I might have been one when I joined, come to think of it, but they helped me, actually did help me become something better. And had I remained a looser? I wouldn't have been allowed to stay in. No matter what my job was, and mine was good enough to get reenlistment bonuses back *then*, when hardly anyone did. Loosers? Yeah, well, I don't know what it's like right now. I can't speak to it. But I know every time I think too much about it what's been done to our soldiers, sometimes when I see one, it makes me want to cry.

[BeHereNow]

96. Welcome to DU Whatever4

Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Thought provoking indeed.
BHN

[whatever4]

111. Thank you, very happy to be here :) nm

[malmapus]

97. Agreed

Tried putting my thoughts down in a post above this one.

If anything I owe the Army for who I am today. I know I have times that I'll just go quiet and sit with my memories and thoughts when my fiancee knows not to push me to talk.

But all in all, it did make me from a "loser". I was a total band geek in HS, got picked on for being a nerd and what not. Then I go in the service cause I messed up my chances to goto college.

I didn't think I would make it through Basic, heck even Signal Corp PT was rough in the begining before I finally got conditioned enough for it. Then Airborne school I really thought I would drop out. But I made it, and with that I got the confidence that I could acheive anything in life if I put myself to the task.

But yeah, I had the bum rap that soldiers have gotten over the case of bad apples that come to light. But I will still fight tooth and nail for them.

[whatever4]

112. I agree

I like what you said, fight tooth and nail for them. Because, for many of them, though they may be being used and absued, and may be abusive themselves, those that believe in the war believe they're fighting for us. Hard to put someone like that down, even if they've killed civilians by the cart load. What a horrible thing this war is. Like Micheal Moores book, which I purchased, "Will They Ever Trust US Again".

In fact, come to think of it, I'd strongly recommend that book. It's composed, for the very most part, of letters written to him by soldiers, soldiers of past wars, and families. Many of the letters were written by people that had formerly supported the war, and it's very heartening to read their change of mind.

Have to keep it in mind, during this whole ordeal; our side can only gain from theirs. Theirs cannot gain from ours. Those opposing the actions of this government aren't ever going to "wakeup and see the light" and support Bush. We won't be losing our converts. But THEIR side can do nothing but lose, to ours. No one ever goes back. It's a one-way trip. Have to remember that, I have to remember that...but it's hard, hard to believe it will make any difference, in time to do any good.

[Seabiscuit]

93. Our stinking military does such wondrous things to young mens' minds.

:puke:

[saigon68]

99. UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE Friday June 24

Okinawa dental technician sentenced to 60 years for murder of fellow sailor

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=29925

By David Allen, Stars and Stripes
Pacific edition, Friday, June 24, 2005

RELATED STORY: Victim "wanted to make everybody happy"

CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa — Seaman Robert L. Person Jr., 19, stood limply in a courtroom Wednesday as a military judge sentenced him to the rest of his life in prison without parole for the murder of a fellow sailor.

Minutes later, he showed little sign of relief as the same judge read the details of a pretrial agreement that reduced the sentence to 60 years. He also was given a dishonorable discharge.

Throughout Person’s two-day trial, his parents sat on a bench behind him, watching him calmly re-enact the crime in a video that showed how he stabbed Palecco in the chest and kidneys and then squatted next to his head to watch the life drain from his body.

“Robert was a quiet person,” his father, a mechanic and minister said. “I just feel like he got caught up with the wrong crowd.”


Because of the International Date Line this is TOMORROW'S NEWS

[Judi Lynn]

102. Corrected post:This reminds me of the group of guys who brutally

murdered one of their friends after a night at a strip club in the States not all that long ago. That was simply incomprehensible, as well. I think they had been in either Afghanistan or Iraq.

Also, did you see the story a day or two ago concerning a Marine and some friends in California who broke into the house of an officer and murdered him?

I don't know if it was posted here or not. On edit: the article said the enlisted man did not know the officer he killed prior to murdering him, so it wasn't personal.

[saigon68]

106. There are quite a few thugs around these days

[Solly Mack]

109. There are a lot of sick fucks in the military

That's the truth of the matter...

and it's not bashing the troops to speak that truth.

However, it is a disservice to the troops to deny that there exist a criminal element within the military......when you deny a problem you can't fix a problem....Playing the patriotic card when there are obvious problems within the military is stupid and counter-productive.

I would rather someone brutally honest support my soldier husband than all the brain-dead idiots spouting "a few bad apples"...at least the honest person sees the situation for what it is and knows it needs changing...unlike those morons blinded by yellow ribbon patriotism.


So everyone needs to back off saigon68....he's only speaking the truth.

[leftchick]

110. Indeed Solly!

well said!

[Javaman]

113. Beevis and Butthead with weapons.

[saigon68]

116. LOL