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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:17 PM
Original message
Toyota to build 100,000 vehicles per year in Woodstock, Ontario
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:18 PM by kskiska
WOODSTOCK, Ont. (CP) - Ontario workers are well-trained.

That simple explanation was cited as a main reason why Toyota turned its back on hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies offered from several American states in favour of building a second Ontario plant.

Industry experts say Ontarians are easier and cheaper to train - helping make it more cost-efficient to train workers when the new Woodstock plant opens in 2008, 40 kilometres away from its skilled workforce in Cambridge.

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.

(snip)

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ontario," Fedchun said.

more…
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/050630/b0630102.html
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Plus there are no health care strings attached.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's right. Government health care that the people pay into!
What a concept!

America is toast. And our corporate 'leaders' are at the foot of this one. Nobody else. Period.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Health care is the REAL REASON
Don't believe the stuff about "worker training" - it's all about the Canadian Health Care System.

No links needed - just hang out in any auto exec bistro along Maple Road from West Bloomfield to Troy and unobtrusively eavesdrop.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Training employs is an expensive process.
I believe Toyota that education was the main reason, especially with how technologically advanced their cars are.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The line that the Big Three are sending to employees and shareholders
is the massive cost of health insurance - and retiree health insurance-- and to some extent, unfunded pension liability.

The split beyween the UAW (US) and the UAW (Canada) was over the problem of simultaneously negotiating benefit issues under two very different systems of health insurance. There was no acrimony between the halves of the UAW -- just an internal inconsistency between the two health insurance systems.

The very tight integration of Michigan's community colleges with employer and union training programs, and the very tight integration of the State of Michigan with numerous night school and evening/part time engineering degree (BS, MS) colleges provide extensive training at State (read that as "taxpayer") expense.

In addition - Michigan has some interesting laws that allow payment of unemployment comp and food stamps to a laid off auto worker who is attending community college or four year college full time. Most other states require an unemployment comp recipient to immediately quit school to accept even a burger flipping job if offered. By way of contrast, MI allows (encourages) the unemployment comp recipient to finish at least the current semester.

I lived in Michigan for seven years - and was affiliated part time with one of those colleges --- and saw how the system works. It provides a highly trained work force (actually higher then other states where I have lived - including California).
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That is pretty cool that Michigan does that.
But it was states in the southeast that were begging Toyota to build there.

Interestingly, California has been tossing around the idea of a state run universal health system lately haven't they? I bet business would love that.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. I heard this on the radio the other day. I'm soo ashamed that I
now live in the South! There really are a lot of illeterate people here! That's such a sad reflection on America!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. And I will bet the farm those illeteratti voted for *
While blaming their schools for their plight. it's their own fault.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Oh they voted for Shrub alright, but they don't blame the schools!
Believe it or not, they just don't give a sh*t about education.

I've told this story so often on DU I'm sure most of you have seen it, so to make it short and sweet. One guy was braging about how happy he was that his son was finally 16 and could quit school. When asked if he wasn't concerned that his son would never get a decent job without at least a HS diploma, he said Hell no! He can go down the street and get a job in a gas station and start MAKING some money instead of costing me!

That's a true story, and that's the problem I see with the illiteracy.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. I lives in the Soth Estern US and us is two edukated. Dum Toyota. NT
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:26 PM by Benhurst
:spank: edited to korect gramer.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. Toyota Press Releases remind me of BushCos press releases.
The real reason is always hidden. Toyota always has ulterior motives for saying what they say.

This reminds me of the Toyota press release of a few weeks ago - saying they were raising prices to 'help GM' stop their market share slide and soothe protectionism talk. That was complete BS...the real reason was the falling dollar forced Toyota to raise prices.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I really don't think its health
Although healthcare isn't an issue in CN, taxes are much higher. With the higher payroll, they could easily pay for healthcare in the south (where its much cheaper than the rest of the country).
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Read the auto industry's own SEC filings,
conferences with stock analysts, and "ERISA Reports To Employees-- Your Benefits" -- Under the law these have to be truthful.

Health insurance, retiree medi-gap insurance, and unfunded pension liability are the issues.

In Canada - even if taxes are higher -- the employee income taxes and the employee health insurance taxes do NOT impact the employer's bottom line. In the US - where health insurance is tied to employment - you better believe that health insurance impacts the employer's bottom line.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. The auto industry
is almost unique in their impossibly high health costs -- I should say the american auto industry.

In the south, I pay about 100K/yr for employee health for 30 employees, which if GM could do they would not be having trouble. I also don't have the buying power of a Toyota or GM.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Maybe I'll Move to Mississippi
I was a "Non-HR Person" on our Health Insurance Negotiating Team at a small Alternative Energy Think Tank- Venture Fund - Incubator in Michigan, and I am now an Independent Entrepreneur in California. You are paying about half of what I pay.

Since your avatar is a dreidel - I guess Mississippi is "safe" for guys like me and Attorney General Judah Phillip Benjamin.

My only concern is that I prefer earthquakes to hurricanes - I went through two Gulf Coast Hurricanes in the Coast Guard.
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. individual income taxes are higher
here in canada....but once you factor in city, state, and federal taxes, it is about the same...

Corporations (with good accountants) pay about 17% in tax on their profit in Canada, that is the same if not lower than the US, and makes Canada attractive.

Employee Salaries are a little higher in Canada, factoring in exchange, and the cost of living, is actually cheaper.

Toyota made a business choice that will benefit them, unless america tries to educate the population, reduces taxes, includes a somewhat funded healthcare system, they cannot compete, ANYWHERE.

This is exactly what John Kerry was talking about.
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badger1080 Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. Consider the source
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 08:23 AM by badger1080
"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.

This is a quote from someone whose job it is to pimp Ontario's automotive workers. Hardly an unbiased source. What did you expect this guy to say?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, but they vote for Bush and Trent Lott - so what if they can't read?
who needs education when they have the bible?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm
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74dodgedart Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
19. Southerners manage to build BMW's,Hondas, GE gas turbines, airplanes etc.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. the race to the bottom -- and sad but true facts
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:42 PM by iverglas


This is one concise explanation of a big problem in the US: it has simply taken the economic "low road":

http://www.econ.usyd.edu.au/drawingboard/digest/0108/wilson.html

To begin, I consider a (crude) distinction between the ‘high’ and ‘low’ road options that policy makers face in accommodating changing domestic and international realities. The high wage, high skill option for most developed countries aims at ensuring both continuity of some kind of dynamic manufacturing core and strong growth in high skilled services. The low wage, low skill route, by contrast, is premised on the argument that global economic realities create fewer options for successful public intervention and that the growth of low paid, low skill work — especially in services — is an unavoidable consequence of adjusting to the market-driven world.

The contrasting strategies of Sweden and the United States illustrate the logic of high and low road options in real economies. In the post-war period, the Swedish labour movement’s policy of ‘solidarity wages’ forced innovation on domestic business by imposing uniform wage costs, thereby reducing the viability of low wage, low skill industries. Although this wages model has been dealt some blows recently, powerful coalitions of interests continue to block the deregulation and retrenchment of Sweden’s employment and welfare systems (see Palan and Abbott, 1999, pp. 103–120). Relative wage compression and extensive decommodification in the labour market place clear limits on any downward adjustment type solutions. Swedish business thus continues to rely on high productivity, value-added industrial development. While commentators are right in stressing the breakdown of classical social democratic adjustment to global markets, at the very time that outside observers were proclaiming the ‘death’ of the Swedish model, domestic industry was remarkably well placed to enter new areas of economic growth, particularly in information technology. I believe that the institutional legacy of the Swedish model has been a decisive factor.

Developments in the American labour market since the end of the long boom stand in contrast to Sweden: the US provides archetype of the ‘low’ road, notwithstanding its high-tech sector. The United States allowed both the wage gap to increase and a huge growth in low skilled, low wage services to soak up the labour supply (see Mishel et al: 1999: 20). At the same time, average working hours have exploded, bucking OECD trends. The growth of low wage, low skilled services must be put in the bigger picture of institutional design: there are fewer macro limits on downward adjustment in the American model. Hence the growth in ‘low road’ industries, divergent productivity trends and a burgeoning current account deficit.
There's no point in taking offence when it is pointed out that there are more educated, skilled workforces in other countries.

It is the POLICY of your governments that has produced this situation. Those govts have been engaged in a race to the bottom. And the effects of this policy are particularly noticeable in "right to work" states, which are plentiful in the US south -- states where the downward pressure on wages and working conditions is not countered by strong labour organizations and pro-worker public policies.

The phenomenon of low-wage, unskilled jobs replacing high-wage, skilled jobs obviously leads to a dumbing-down of the work force. The workers may be inherently just as intelligent -- no one has said they are not -- but they do not have the knowledge and know-how for technically and technologically complex employment, or for ready acquisition of the specific skills and knowledge such jobs require.

That phenomenon is not present to the same extent in Canada. Unionization rates are higher, income inequality is lower (the huge gap between rich and poor in the US, and the continuing shift of income upward, is less present in Canada), and the social safety net (health care, post-secondary education) that supports both employers and the labour force is more extensive and secure.

The Canadian automotive industry really does happen to be a model of productivity, in no small part because of the skilled workforce.

Stating these facts is not an insult to the workers of the US south. It is merely recognition of what years of right-wing government do to a society. I'd think this would be something that DU members would find it easy to acknowledge.



edited to fix slight grammatical incoherency

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. and the thread races to the bottom ... reality being once again ignored

That economics stuff in the preceding post really is worth thinking about -- I'd thought that people here kinda knew intuitively what right-wing govt policies in the US were doing to people, but it's quite interesting to read the broader perspective on it.

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Garfield Goose Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Toyota chose the Great White North
I'm calling racism on this one.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. take off

eh?

;)

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Garfield Goose Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. OK Hoser
Now pass me da back bacon and donuts, eh?:-)
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