Trotsky murder weapon may have been found

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- One of history's most infamous murder weapons, the ice pick used to kill Russian revolutionary Leon Trotsky, has apparently resurfaced after being lost for decades.

The revelation comes just weeks before the 65th anniversary of Trotsky's assassination on August 20, 1940.

But tests that could prove the weapon's authenticity have been delayed by a dispute between the ice pick's owner, who is shopping it around, and Trotsky's descendants, who want it donated to a revolutionary museum -- proving that the struggle between socialist ideals and capitalism is continuing.

The ice pick is in the possession of Ana Alicia Salas, whose father apparently removed it from an evidence room while serving as a secret police commander in the 1940s.
more at:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/07/11/mexico.trotsky.ap/index.html


Ana Alicia Salas says the ice pick she's holding was used to kill Russian revolutionary Leon Trotsky.

[Inland]

1. I thought he was hacked with an axe. nt

[lfairban]

3. Actually according to my recollection, . . .

. . . it was an Ice Axe, consistent with the picture. This is not what we would consider an Ice Pick, but it make the origin of the term clear. The assailant used the point of the Axe, and attacked from behind. All it did was punch a hole in his head. This did not even knock him out.

Correction:

After re-reading the condensed Time article in the Time Capsule, it doesn't look like he was necessarily hit from behind, and the weapon was described as an Alpine Ax. He was killed by a man named Frank Jackson, who also brought a knife and a pistol with him.

. . . Trotsky sat down there, began to read the manuscript his friend (Jackson) had brought. Jackson leaned over his shoulder. From under his coat, where he had hidden a pistol, a dagger and an Alpine pick, he chose the heaviest instrument. If he succeeded with this, he would make no sound, do his work with one quick blow.

But Frank Jackson bungled. A peasant or a worker would have known that to knock a man out, you have to put your weight behind a blow. The pick cut through Trotsky's skull, but the blow was not hard enough. Trotsky did not slump, did not even realize that he had been hit on the head. He thought he had been shot. He leaped from his chair, grappled with his assailant, bit his hand. . .

From "Time Capsule, the War Years, 1939-1945

[Demeter]

2. That's An Ice Pick?

It looks more like a pick axe. Why would one need an ice pick for mountaineering in Mexico anyway?

[lfairban]

4. Probably used to chop ice into blocks for the Ice Box.

They had those in 1940. Not everyone had electricity, and many people did not have refrigerators.

[brentspeak]

5. particeps criminis

Partners in crime: Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky

[Somawas]

7. Stalin was a minor participant in the 1917 Revolution.

Trotsky was by Lenin's side.

[brentspeak]

8. I meant their shared guilt

over the loss of so many millions of lives.

[bemildred]

10. Stalin really gets the palm there.

Lenin and Trotsky were certainly genocidal killers, but they weren't
paranoid genocidal killers like Stalin.

[brentspeak]

12. True

Stalin was competing with Hitler to see who could win the title of "Most Despicable Human Being Who Ever Lived".

[bemildred]

13. And a very competitive field it is. Let's not forget Mao.

"The big three."

[Somawas]

15. Mao makes all the rest look like amateurs

when it comes to numbers. Plus, of course, he stayed in power longer.

[bemildred]

16. Most likely.

But what's another ten million or so one way or another?
:thumbsup:

It's interesting to me that few draw any parallels between Mao
and Stalin, whereas they seem as alike as two peas in a pod to me.

[liberalpragmatist]

17. I actually feel Mao is somewhat more sympathetic

In that I think he genuinely believed he was doing what was in the best interests of his countrymen. Unlike Stalin and Lenin, I don't get the impression that Mao actively supported slaughtering tens of millions of people - but in his stubborness, zealotry, and blindness to the realities of his policies, he pursued unbelievably destructive policies and was unable to face them. Thus he unleased the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, killing unspeakable numbers of people.

[bemildred]

9. Trotsky was running around in that armored train saving Lenin's ass. nt

[struggle4progress]

11. Wasn't Trotsky murdered in exile for his continuing opposition to Stalin?

"In inner-party politics, these methods lead, as we shall yet see, to this: the party organization substitutes itself for the party, the central committee substitutes itself for the organization, and, finally, a 'dictator' substitutes himself for the central committee."

This well-known quote suggests Trotsky's attitude towards the developments following the soviets' loss of power in the troubled period after WWI.

[bemildred]

14. Yeah, quite a while after he "had to leave" the USSR.

That was Stalin's general approach to dealing with all opposition.
Trotsky was just unusually elusive.

[UTUSN]

6. Wasn't It Found Several Months Ago? n/t

[Ouabache]

18. Weren't Wolfowitz and some other neo-cons Trotskyites when younger?

Seems I recall reading that at one time some of the neo-cons, including Wolfie were actually Trotskyites when they were young. Now if a prominent liberal had this in their background we would never hear the end of it. But with the neo-cons it never comes up. Of course the wingnuts and fundies would spin it to prove 'well, hey, they are not as conservative as you say then.'

[bemildred]

19. I seem to recall that too.

One totalitarian is much like another, eh?

[Joy Anne]

23. on Trotskyite NeoCons

I don't know about Wolfie in particular, but IIRC the NeoCons--i.e., "new conservatives"--were originally Communists, Socialists, etc., who flipped to the far right. They lack any of the redeeming features of actual conservatives because they're people who need an ideology to live by. When the absurd beliefs of their youth became too hard to stay with, they turned to something equally absurd.

See Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer."

[Inland]

27. I suggest something more malignant

They are attracted to ideologies that concentrate power into the hands of a few elites who pretend to be acting on behalf of the people, and who maintain power through propaganda and manipulation of the masses.

If that's your cup of tea, the most likely ideology to hook your wagon to was communism. After it became clear communism wasn't going to take over the world, they found Leo Strauss and neo-conservatism, which got to the same end and means through a different conceptual construct.

[Joy Anne]

32. yes

I agree with you.

[bemildred]

25. Drink-Soaked Trotskyite Popinjays for War

http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_drinksoakedtrotsforwar_archive.html

(Just so we all can understand that George was not making things up.)

[Gyre]

20. That folks, is an ICE AXE!

A common mountaineering tool.

Gyre

[daleo]

21. Bush may be looking for one of those soon

Rove is getting inconvenient.

[burrowowl]

22. It should go to the

Troksky Museum in Mexico DF!

[TheLastMohican]

24. Kettle calling the pot black

You should all see your own pResidents starting from Washington, and calculate how many innocent lives they took with all american invasions throughout the world.

2 million Vietnamese,
100 000 Iraqis and this is the start
How many Nicaraguans, Salvadorians, Colombians, Chileans? Acting by proxy?
How many Indians?

That would put mass genocidal killers like Mao and Stalin to shame.
Look in the mirror sometimes, the "greatest democracy on earth" took a good share of genocide throughout the history.

[SteppingRazor]

31. Hardly a good comparison...

Comparing one nation's entire history to one man's. If you want a nation to nation comparison, then compare how many people were slaughtered in the history of China and Russia vs. the U.S. While I can't defend many oof the U.S.'s more-egregious foreign policy decisions throughout its history, to compare us to Stalinist Russia or Mao's China is the height of absurdity.

[xxqqqzme]

26. that woman is seriously

scary - so her dad poached it and that makes it hers?

[Richard Steele]

28. I was waiting for someone to ask that.

That was STOLEN from an evidence locker;
the only CLAIM she has is as an accessory to theft.

[saigon68]

29. Ms. Salas looks like she murdered Leon Trotsky

Look at the expression on her Grill.

P.S. title to a stolen item reverts to its original OWNER, when FOUND.

[SteppingRazor]

30. TROTSKY!! My Lack of God, it's Trotsky!

Sorry... Monty Python reference.