The suicide bomb squad from Leeds

[seriousstan]

FOUR friends from northern England have changed the face of terrorism by carrying out the suicide bombings that brought carnage to London last week.

---cut----

Three of the men lived in Leeds and the immediate fear is that members of a terrorist cell linked to the city are planning further strikes. The mastermind behind the attacks and the bombmaker are both still thought to be at large.

The man who planted the bomb at Edgware Road was named last night as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, the married father of an eight-month-old baby, who is believed to have come from the Leeds area.

Two other terrorists were Hasib Hussain, 19, who bombed the bus in Tavistock Square, of Colenso Mount, Leeds, and Shehzad Tanweer, 22, the Aldgate bomber, who lived at Colwyn Road, Leeds.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1691994,00.html

[Forever Free]

1. This just demonstrates how vigilant we must be

These terrorists can be homegrown right in our own midst.

[seriousstan]

2. All four were British, but with origins in Pakistan

[krkaufman]

3. Vigilant, schmidgilant... we need to start addressing the root cause...

... of terrorism; otherwise, we'll continually "inspire" the birth of new terrorists.

What causes someone to become a terrorist and/or suicide bomber? Might our global policies be somehow playing a part?

[seriousstan]

8. What was the "global policy" of Bali? Or Nigeria? Or Algeria?

Or Tunisia? Or Sudan? Or Indonesia? Or the Philippines? Or Banggladesh? (Oh sorry, I forgot. I Bangladesh four bombs detonate concurrently at four packed movie cinemas killing twenty and injuring at least seventy-five. Muslim fundamentalists had been critical of entertainment venues and those who frequented them. That must have been their offensive behavior. My bad.)

[wookie294]

27. The root cause began in 1954

Eisenhower's CIA organized and financed the overthrow of Iran's DEMOCRATIC government in 1954 because Iran's leader sought to kick-out Western oil companies. It was the beginning of America's oil war with Muslims who live atop oil. You can read all about it at the CIA's website here....

http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol48no2/article10.html

Bali was a counter-attack, just like 9/11.

[seriousstan]

34. I guess they were asking for it in Bangladesh, watching movies and all.

Funny how some turn a blind eye to extreme religious fanaticism.

[wookie294]

37. Huh ?

????

[anotherdrew]

81. extreme religious fanaticism is everywhere

Are we going to start rounding these people up and putting them in re-education camps? How else do you propose to deal with this real threat? Might as well just admit it...

"Do you now or have you ever believed strongly in something?"
"Are you willing to die for your beliefs?"

We used to consider these good things

But since our US president has called Crusade we've driven every one who was sitting on the fence over to the "ready to go for it" side. We now have a mess that will not be solved. Mark my words, this will NEVER NEVER END now.
People are going to get blown up from time to time from now on. IT's just a new part of life, like big multi-car traffic accidents. or getting killed on the job. Just another small risk we'll all just have to live with.
All we're going to do is redden the sands with blood in the muslim world and they're gonna strike back anyway they can. So face it, either we overthrow the US administration, get down on our knees and beg forgiveness and get the hell out of the middle east or this is it, for decades to come.

[barb162]

105. Excellent point. This reminds me of the moron Pakistani men

who cut off a woman's feet last week (in all the papers) because they suspected her of fooling around. In many cases we are dealing with incredibly ignorant fanatics who can only have things their way, right or wrong. Bin Laden wants the "infidels" out of Saudi Arabia. Well, likewise, maybe Italy should kick all Moslems out of Italy, as Rome is the Catholic "holy city." Would Italy be racist/prejudiced, etc if it did this?

Some people don't want to deal with facts.

[smirkymonkey]

121. I agree, and I don't even think it would stop if we pulled out of

every Arab Muslim country and apologized until we were blue in the face. The goal of radical Muslim extremism is to destroy the west and it's culture.

It's naive to think that if we just stop picking on these poor Arab nations they will flourish, and freedom and democracy will bloom instead of ignorance and oppression. No matter what we do, it's not going to happen. They need to save themselves first or they will continue to be exploited by their corrupt leaders and stronger western nations.

[Don1]

94. Great Points!!

People who do not know their own history are doomed to repeat it. That is what we are doing now. BushCo is out to make a quick buck for his cronies and masks it as a fight for democracy against foreigners. The underlying root of this attack against foreigners is a bigotted argument.

Here is an example.

"The Iraqis lack certain capacities." -- Condoleezza Rice, January 18, 2005

"We could not leave them to themselves—they were unfit for self-government—and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain’s was." -— President William McKinley, explaining to a group of missionaries his realization, after a night of prayer, that the U.S. must turn the Philippines, an island it had wrested by arms from Spain, into a U.S. colony, November 21, 1899

So you can add that to your arguments. The Philippines today is our fault, too. And the similarities with Iraq are there.

[madeline_con]

42. "What was the "global policy"

Follow the money. Whatever corporate interest is in the area, exploiting the locals, is usually at the heart of the problem.

[krkaufman]

75. Pretty simple stuff, really

(Knowing the truth, that is; doing something about it is another thing.)

[madeline_con]

86. "... doing something about it is another thing."

As they say, knowing is half the battle. :)

[krkaufman]

100. True. I feel better knowing....

agreed.

But getting others knowledgeable, in our current environment, is daunting.

[Pallas180]

48. SeriousStan - The West interfered with Algeria,Indonesia, and

the Phillipines, both the French and the AMericans - and Bangladesh too. And of course wherever we went, the missionaries and evangelicals went too. Why can't we just leave people to their own religions? ?
The American CIA has been busy for decades since the 1950's trying to manipulate populaces and installing puppet governments. And strangely for a country that espouses democracy and freedom for the world, the dictators who we installed had nothing to do with freedom and democracy. Eventually the peoples of those countries rebelled. Persia under the Shah which became Iran under the mullahs
more recently. And England has a long history of colonization in the
Middle East and Africa and the Islands. How do you think the Indians and Pakistanis and West Indians and so on have autmatic citizenship, I believe in the United Kingdom?

A little googling "true" history rather than the pap "they hate our freedoms" might give you some more valid information. I suspect you are too young to know the histories of the West's "colonialization" - but wherever we ( the CIA) went the people's lives certainly were not improved. There's a reason Kissinger is listed a a war criminal
in South and Central America. He approved death squads - 30,000 to
hundreds of thousands disappeared under his tacit approval. The USA trained their soldiers to be death squads.

Did we, the American people know any of this? No. NOt until after Vietnam and the lies there, did we begin to distrust our own government - and for those of my generation, our eyes were opened, and the trust has never been restored...although Clinton was very good in some areas, but a globalist too.

Frankly since Bill ( though I adore him) is hanging out with Pappy, can't understand what's up with that, and Hillary is trying to be Republican, not even lite, they don't have my vote anymore.

[Stella_Artois]

112. Not quite correct

Indians and Pakistanis and West Indians are not automatically UK citizens.

[krkaufman]

74. Too little time to provide your education

But it is arguable that our policies of economic empire at the expense of anyone standing in the way *has* played a part in pushing people with little or nothing to lose into the control of fanatical extremists -- religious or otherwise.

[anotherdrew]

80. so what's your suggestion then?

[PurityOfEssence]

60. You mean fanatic belief in religion?

If so, I'm with you. Agnostics don't do this shit.

Yes, countries and groups of people fuck others on a regular basis. Religion is often the cause, but in all fairness, it's more often a cover, an excuse and A MEANS. Take away the wacky belief in Sugarcandy Mountain and the Big Daddy who will pat you on the head for eternity and take away all the pangs of worthlessness, and civilization is much less at risk.

This is where, for world domination (religion's true desire) Islam's an obviously superior system. You won't find many Christians with the certainty in their who'sywhatzit who'll kill theyselves for the ultimate reward, but there seem to be Muslims by the metric ton who'll do so with impunity. Obviously, Christians are just candy-assed lightweights in comparison.

For those of you who believe and have read this ickiness to this point, I offer this olive branch: you are pretty much, by definition, not a blinkered, literalist nut. In your hands rests the hope of humanity, because non-believers have no voice in the events to come. In your heart, the bulk of the teachings of the three Abrahamic religions probably beats loudly: getting along with others, taking care of the weak, behaving oneself and being a willing part of a whole. You are our hope, but never lose sight of the danger of certainty. For the moment, though, remember that acts like these would NEVER happen without the societal agreement that unwavering belief in the supernatural is a good thing.

[non sociopath skin]

62. Well said, POE.

My tolerance of organised religion is flickering hard and close to death. Too much bad, bad shit in the Big Guy's name ...

The Skin

[fedsron2us]

90. Loath as I am to defend organised religion

it needs to be remembered that the suicide bomb was more or less invented by Russian anarchists and nihilists in the nineteenth century who were nearly all atheists. Pound for pound most successful suicide bombers in the world are the Tamil Tigers who have accounted for two world leaders (one Indian one Sri Lankan) using the tactic. They are are essentially a nationalist party, representing an ethnic group, and are mainly Hindus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/4677533.stm

[CJCRANE]

68. "Muslims by the metric ton".

Just look at the numbers:

19 hijackers invade US.
4 guys attack London.
200,000 troops invade Iraq.

[barb162]

106. Take a look at the young kids in Palestine whacking themselves

off because some jerk says he'll give their parents 20 bucks and the kid a chance to be with Allah. Have you ever seen interviews with these kids? They are so brainwashed into putting on those suicide vests. Did you ever notice these chief fanatic jerks don't have their own kids putting on the suicide vests? As to "19 hijackers invade US" we weren't in Iraq then.

[rustydad]

108. Palestinians

Palestinans fight back with bombs on bodies because that is there only optiion other than capitulation. Remember Rachel Corie. A 60 ton Catapiller tractor (made in the USA) squashing her like a bug. Zionism is as sick as it gets. Bob

[barb162]

110. why don't the Palestinian leaders send their own 12 year old kids

I think zionists are more mentally healthy than Moslem men who cut off a woman's feet becaue they suspected her of not obeying their marriage vows, than Islamic men who stone women to death because the women showed their ankles....

Gotta say one thing for zionists: they basically aren't shitting on and killing their own women. Gotta say one thing about Islamic men in several countries: why are the women getting killed by their own husbands and relatives. Sorry, there are too many media stories on extremist Islamic men who are totally fucked up

[rustydad]

119. crazies

One can find any number of aberations of religion, Muslim, Hindu, Budist, Christian, Zionist, whatever. The truth is Israel and especially it's Zionist leadership considers Palestinians to be non human and they kill them as they would a mad dog. I do not condon the mistreatment of women by some Muslim fundamentalists. But one should be careful to apply the same criticism to other fundamentalists including Christians. Bob

[CJCRANE]

118. I wasn't justifying muslim fanatics

just pointing out that the neocon's cure - wiping out 100,000 in Iraq - is worse than the initial problem and on a much bigger scale, and will make it worse still.

I agree that the whole suicide bomber is crazy and don't really understand it. And yes the elders never seem to do it, just send brainwashed kids in.

On the other hand I don't agree with the neocons' "honeypot" tactic either, using US troops as bait, on the calculation that for every marine they lose they'll wipe out more terrorists (that's not much different than the suicide bombers handler's mentality).

[Frederik]

109. Actually, that's not true

"Agnostics don't do this shit"

There are many examples of secular/atheist suicide bombers. The Kurdish People's Party (PKK), which is marxist/socialist, has employed suicide bombers in Turkey. The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, though Hindus, are not primarily motivated by their religion. They pioneered suicide attacks as a guerrilla tactic in the 80s.

[barb162]

104. well, that, and also, the parents of some young suicide bombers

get 20 bucks or so and they can be in the arms of Allah.

[Stella_Artois]

115. Islam has problems

Some of them were caused by Western interferance and meddling, but not all of them. The Sharia treatment of women by the Taliban was not rooted in a sense of injustice from the west.

Islam has many problems, not least it being hijacked by extremists. There is nothing wrong with facing up to reality.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Stop butchering people in the name of "freedom and democracy"

The terror attacks in London are a reaction to Tony Blair's war crimes in Iraq, period. As long as the UK continues to wage war against Islam alongside Bush, attacks such as the ones in London will continue to be a real possibility.

[seriousstan]

10. So answer my question above. I am sre all of those contries would

love to know how to stop the attacks in their countries.

[anotherdrew]

83. seriousstan - We've brought this on ourselves for decades of evil rule

We've fucked the middle east every cvhance possible since the end of the ottoman empire, what the hell do you expect to happen. PAYBACKS A BITCH as they say. Now we must make amends, admit our wrong ways and mistakes and ask them for peace on their terms. Period. End of story, there is no other way and not trying ensures thousands more dead.

[Don1]

95. It's simple.

Talk peace, equality, compassion, community and liberty. And formulate foreign relations and foreign policy based on those values.

[Forever Free]

11. War against Islam?

I don't like George Bush and his neo-con cabal as much as the next person, but give me a fuckin break.

Do you HONESTLY think that these attacks would completely be eliminated if John Kerry had been elected? Yes, our actions do exacerbate SOME of the anti-American sentiment, but most of it is DERIVED from an inherent antagonism to the American way of life.

[frictionlessO]

12. Yep and I wonder why that is?

Im sure that only some of the terrorist that have been honeytrapped in Iraq would agree with you.

It is alas much more complicated than hating us for our freedoms, or Islam wanting to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them (which is the one most bigots seem to be using these days), or oil or even just extremist ideologies. We have our own just itching to kill them some brown skins and liberals lest you forget and trust me they would if they could.

This isn't High School... there is no black or white and there is no way to bomb them into submission.

The one thing Kerry would have offrered was someone willing to work with governments other than just dictating what was what. Someone who actually knew that most politics is detente and detente is the art of compromise.

For the record if idiot son and his PNAC masters (egged on by the fundie fried) had not invaded Iraq illegal and with ill purpose, I dare say that some of these bombings would indeed not have happened. Either way it is speculation on both our parts.

[IndianaGreen]

30. How come American missionaries followed US troops into Iraq?

The Christian Right is waging war against Islam, and now they have an ally in the White House. Like the murderous Conquistadors, the religious rabble follows the murderous conquering army to save the souls of the occupied.

Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq
(Filed: 27/12/2003)

US Christian evangelists want to "save Muslim souls" in Iraq, writes David Rennie in Cleveland

American Christian missionaries have declared a "war for souls" in Iraq, telling supporters that the formal end of the US-led occupation next June will close an historic "window of opportunity".

Organising in secrecy, and emphasising their humanitarian aid work, Christian groups are pouring into the country, which is 97 per cent Muslim, bearing Arabic Bibles, videos and religious tracts designed to "save" Muslims from their "false" religion.

<snip>

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for Christians may soon close.

"Southern Baptists must understand that there is a war for souls under way in Iraq," his bulletin added, listing Islamic leaders and "pseudo-Christian" groups also flooding Iraq as his chief rivals.

The missionaries are mainly evangelicals who reject talk of Muslims and Christians worshipping the same God.

The Telegraph

[Forever Free]

32. Missionaries always go to areas where they haven't had access to before

Their mere presence doesn't impy that the goverment is ACTUALLY forcing Muslims to covert to Christianity at gunpoint.

Now of course, the evangelicals like George Bush. But do you honestly think that Bush started this war in order to "Christianize" the heathen masses of the Middle East?

[IndianaGreen]

35. Missionaries are the scourge of mankind

Look at how they profited at the expense of the native Hawaiians!

They should be banned from Iraq and Afghanistan! We should pass a law making it illegal to do missionary work which is nothing more than indoctrination into a belief system that is inherently homophobic, misogynist, and a threat to the public order.

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

Socialism and Religion (1905)
V.I. Lenin

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[Pallas180]

50. Forever Free, are you

just trolling?

baiting?

[architect359]

76. That may be true of Bush

But I don't think that's the case of the other evangelicals. I think that everyone is using everyone if you know what I mean. Bush uses the far right lunatics for his own agenda and the far right nutty groups sure are seizing this opportunity to advance theirs.

[IntiRaymi]

82. The sheer arrogance of Missionary work

To go into a foreign land, and disrupt their social order and structure?
The intent of conversion from a to b should be regarded as a crime against humanity - as it is really a tool of colonization. Divide and conquer, to later exploit and subjugate.
Do not, for one instant, assume that missionary work has been independent of the foreign policy of the great powers.
Can you not look at the obvious, the conquest of the Americas, and help but think that these historical experiences have taught our aristocrats a thing or two about how this task was done?

on edit: Grammar

[madeline_con]

43. "DERIVED from ...

... an inherent antagonism to the American way of life."

They hate us for our freedom, right?

[CJCRANE]

44. This is the first attack on the UK

by muslim fundamentalists. I wouldn't say that it wouldn't have happened if Kerry got in (because Iraq was a done deal by then), but I bet it wouldn't have happened if Gore got in.

on edit: if terrorism increases, and attacks on US allies occur that have never had them, and most of the world is critical of an illegal war and predicts that this will happen, then it makes sense at least to look into it.

[UKCynic]

46. Not your way of life, your way of killing

' an inherent antagonism to the American way of life'

No they don't object to your way of life, they object to you killing their brothers and sister in God. The London bombings will probably be found to have killed between 50 and 60. You do not know how many innocent civilians, including children, that you killed in 'shock and awe' and you regard those bombers as heroes. The American way of life includes killing people who you don't agree with and anybody else who gets in the way. American freedom means denying the right to freedom to anybody who doesn't have a US passport. Come to think of it I am antagonistic too.

[Pallas180]

51. UKCynic - not quite true - because America no longer has" freedom,-"

"American freedom means denying the right to freedom to anybody who doesn't have a US passport. "

No , this is a better definition: American freedom means denying the right to freedom to any country who has a population that can be made to work for pennies, and a country who has resources America (and the UK ) wants.

[Pallas180]

49. Forever Free - John Kery has nothing to do with it & he would be

just like the rest.

"but most of it is DERIVED from an inherent antagonism to the American way of life. "

That is so funny that you believe that kindergarten crap, too much Rush, O'REilly, and Hannity who just repeat the talking points of the RNC and the Neo Con administration.

After a century and more of oppression and stealing their resources on the cheap, from which the people didnt benefit but American Fruit Company, American Rubber Company, Munitions Comapnies, and most especially BP, EXXON, Texaco , Unical, you name the big oil companies, which include Rockefeller's Standard Oil did benefit, the
"third worlders" are exacting their revenge.

This is history, not propaganda.

Google :"The History of Neo-Fascism In America"

Google: Assassination/ Coup Attempt on FDR ( Bush's grandpappy and the Rockefellers and the Carnegies, the richest families in AMerica were in on that one AND they financed Hitler. The American rich financed Hitler) A famous General spilled the beans in a book he wrote about in the 1930's I think. Odd name but it'll come to me, and I'll try to find you and post it for you. Smedley something.

SMEDLEY BUTLER. I think that's it. Most decorated marine in history. Told how the corporations used his American army to take over the resources of other countries . It's on google too.

Propaganda is: they hate us for our freedoms.

Truth is : They hate us for what we have done to them in foreign policy for the last 100 years is the truth.

By the way, the true political beliefs of this administration IS FASICSM - "the joining of the corporations with the state" - not to the benefit of the people/population of the country, but to the corporations and those few elite wealthy.

I assume you're not an elite wealthy?

[Frederik]

64. I think you're wrong

"it is DERIVED from an inherent antagonism to the American way of life

They hate us for our freedoms? That's not why people are blowing themselves up. It is always a reaction to perceived (and often real)injustice, whether it happens in Britain, Iraq or in Israel. Why don't anyone attack Sweden? Because they don't hate Swedish freedoms?

[CJCRANE]

66. That's like saying -

So what if there's been more crime in town since we got the new Sheriff. And so what if he beats up and arrests the wrong people, there'd still be crime if we had a different sheriff.

ed: grammar

[The Stranger]

73. Absolute fucking nonsense.

Most of the people in question would give anything for the "American way of life," at least in the sense of standard of living, freedom to live as they choose, and a strong system of laws (and, once upon a time, limited government).

What they have "an inherent antagonism" against is the constant subjugation and exploitation of their countries, populations and natural resources, all of which are part of U.S. foreign policy, but have reached levels of fascism with this current regime (which has also declared a war on them).

[anotherdrew]

84. wrong - most don't care how infidels outside their territory want to live

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[loudsue]

21. Boy! You guys really like the taste of kool-aid, dontcha?

"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms.
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms."
"They hate us for our freedoms."

You guys sound like george bush and the talking heads.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Forever Free]

33. Wow...

Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.

[wookie294]

36. Are you saying they hate us for our freedoms?

Even the Pentagon says they hate us for our policies, not our "freedom."

Fox News said an internal Pentagon report concluded: "At the root of the problem ... is a fundamental misunderstanding of why many Muslims are hostile toward the United States. They 'hate our policies,' not our freedom...."

That's Fox News! See link....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139540,00.html

[Forever Free]

41. Yup, our policies play a huge role

And our blunder in Iraq isn't helping the fight against international terrorism at all.

BUT...

There are radicals out there, no matter what American foreign policy is, will continue to abhor the West, its "decadent" entertainment, depraved "morals", etc. They view it as a threat to their version of Islam and they themselves have declared that the West stands in direct opposition to their way of life. (I believe various clerics both in London and Jakara have made such statements in the past, can't remember their names)

Can the spate of terrorist attacks be reduced? Absolutely. You can start by NOT invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

Can terrorist attacks against the US, perpetrated by Islamic militants, ever be eliminated due solely to changes in our global foreign policy? Absolutely NOT.

[wookie294]

45. Agreed

Can terrorist attacks against the US, perpetrated by Islamic militants, ever be eliminated due solely to changes in our global foreign policy? Absolutely NOT.

Nobody thinks violence can be "eliminated" by changing America's foreign policies or domestic policies. But Islamic terror can be REDUCED (or at least not encouraged) by changing our foreign policy. Bush gives Islamic radicals a bigger "purpose" in life. Currently, our foreign policy in the Arab world is designed primarily to protect oil company profits (and of course Israel). But protecting oil company profits in the Arab world is completely unrelated to the national security interests of the average American taxpayer who protects oil and Israel. That's because most of our oil doesn't come from the Arab world. Of the 15 nations that supply oil to the USA, only three are Arab (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq). See link for proof. Most of America's oil comes from Canada and Latin America, not the Middle East. Hence: it's not necessary for America to be meddling in Arab affairs.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

[Frederik]

65. Why is Brazil not a target?

Brazilians are at least as "decadent" as the Americans. Why aren't any Islamist fanatics plotting to blow up the statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro?

If America had been isolationist in its foreign policy during the last 60 years, America would not have been a target either.

Sayyid Qutb, the ideological father of modern Islamism, worked as a teacher for a year in the US in 1949. He was disgusted by what he saw as a permissive, godless society, and this played a role in his subsequent radicalization. But he never advocated attacking Americans. He simply wanted to purge Muslim countries of Western influence.

If you listen to the rhetoric of present-day jihadists, they all talk about avenging Iraq (including the first gulf war) and Afghanistan.

[CJCRANE]

70. The only attack on the US homeland

was 9/11 and that was clearly inspired as a retaliation of US policy.
In fact it succeeded in one sense as US troops have moved out of Saudi Arabia.

There are radicals everywhere against the "decadent" US lifestyle. In fact I'd be willing to bet that there are more American Christian fundamentalists who are actively against the "decadent" US lifestyle.

Arabs in general don't care what happens in America. They are more concerned about American bombs in their countries. In fact before the Bush admin I bet many of them dreamt of coming to live in America, and strive for that old idea called "the American Dream" (you know the one about making a better life for your family).

On edit: In fact I can just see a conversation in downtown Fallujah:
"You know, I don't mind the bombs going off all the time, but that decadent American rap music is really starting to annoy me!"

[LivingInTheBubble]

102. ok

this is the only attack in this country that was in the name of islam, so "reduced" does mean eliminated. Without the right wing christian fundamentalist invasion and control of middle eastern country it would have been a whole lot more difficult (or impossible) to have persuaded these young impressionable bombers to kill their fellow citizens. there is also no "spate" of terrorist attacks, how many have there been - 3 in the last 4 years? Also the US has been strangely ignored in the last two and instead those crazy muslims have been targetting two countries where the public are actually fairly Anti war.
Its almost as if they are targetting deliberately to gain support for the "war on terror" which has led to claims by some that the people who recruited thes bombers were actually mossad.

[Frederik]

69. So, how come

no one is attacking or threatening Sweden, Brazil, Switzerland or Japan? Not enough freedom in those countries?

[Pallas180]

52. WOW welcome all you new people. do you mind if I ask

how you happened to pop into DU?

[Historic NY]

40. Well actually we have had more home grown terrorist attacks in...

this country than by foreigners. Our biggest threat lies within.

http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/american2.html

[Zodiak]

101. Fundie Christians fit that description better

Yup, and those people DO hate us for our freedoms. Freedom to be gay, freedom to dissent, freedom to choose,....hell, might as well throw gangsta rap in there, too.

If you think Muslim fundamentalists don't like our lifestyle, you should go to a snake-handler megachurch on Sunday. These people blow up stuff in the US more prolifically than Muslim terrorists.

[hunter]

87. The Oklahoma City bombers proved that...

...these terrorists can be homegrown right in our own midst!!!

:eyes: So sorry for the kneejerk... could not stop myself

[JoFerret]

93. Anthrax anyone?

?

[JoFerret]

92. Lots more to be known yet

...such as - what led them to become murderers? And what can be appropriately done about that?

[Frederik]

4. Recently returned from Pakistan

Where Bin Laden has found a sanctuary since December 2002. Wonder what Bush has to say about that? Or, for that matter, Musharraf? Pakistan had its hands all over 9/11, they harbour the Taliban and al-Qaida, the head of their security service wired money to 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta, they appear to have the power to stop Taliban attacks in Afghanistan if they so please (like they did before the Afghani election last year after Bush had a meeting with Musharraf), they refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Lashkar-e-Taiba training camps on their territory which train jihadists from Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia (and Britain?).

Yet, Pakistan is supposedly America's staunchest ally in the war on terror. Funny how that works.

Like many of these terrorists, these young men appear to have turned to fundamentalist Islam fairly recently. One of these guys had no interest in religion until 18 months ago. Relatives of other terrorists have complained that their kids have been "brainwashed" by a "cult" over a very short period of time. I should think that the police would be well advised to look very closely into certain extremist milieus in London after this.

Scary that this seems to be home-grown.

[Skink]

6. Pakistan has the bomb.

Is it any wonder Iran wants one. Once you have it the world leaves you alone.

[Chicago Democrat]

18. tru mostly... we fight proxy wars usually..

yes, little wonder regarding Iran.


So they hate us and took some hostages 30 years ago. Give me 2 other reasons why I should hate Iran?

[CJCRANE]

58. ...And Reagan's boys

seemed to get on with them alright with the Iran-Contra deals.

edited: to change but to and.

[Matilda]

9. It's particularly sad that they're using kids.

What do they understand of death?

The police believe that Hussein, who was 19, was the bomber who was
blown up on the bus. Passengers had described him as appearing
nervous and fiddling all the time with his bag. He was probably
really scared, and that just adds to the whole tragedy. Sorry, but
I do find that very sad.

But retribution alone won't stop this happening; there must be real
attempts made to address the underlying causes. In other words,
stop exploiting the ME - and one way of doing that is to stop
supporting regimes like the Sauds and Musharraf. They're no good
for anyone - not for their people, and in the end, not good for the
west either.

[July_July]

16. Raises some interesting questions....

I remember reading that suicide bombers often looked drugged, or go into a trance, before they kill themselves. It doesn't seem like these kids acted like that. Also, weren't the bombs detonated by phone (or has that too changed)? Combine that with the age of the terrorists (I've read teenagers and then one who was 30 - an odd age gap), and something doesnt add up. Maybe the poor kids were tricked into it.

Also, I don't see how exploiting the middle east plays (directly) into this, these men were born and raised in England. The large problem in the combustible combination of Islam and poverty/segregation that many muslims face in europe.


(finally, my first post...hooray me!)

[loudsue]

23. Welcome to DU, July-July!

:applause: You're doing ok for yourself there!

:hi::toast::beer: Good to see you finally posted! :beer::party::hi:

:kick::kick::kick:

[wookie294]

28. Huh?

I don't see how exploiting the middle east plays (directly) into this

Well, I have news for ya. The Middle East plays DIRECTLY INTO THIS. You don't have to be a Muslim living in the Middle East to sympathize with the victims of Iraq.

[Matilda]

29. Welcome July!

And yes, this is a slightly different scenario given their Pakistani
background - it may have more to do with religion, although the
Pakistanis generally are more in sympathy with their neighbours than
Musharraf would have us believe.

But kids of 19 and even 22 are vulnerable no matter where they come
from, and using them in this way makes me really angry. If adults
want to make that decision at least they fully understand the
consequences and presumably think it's worth it, but these kids don't
know what they really want. It's so cowardly to use them this way.

[UKCynic]

47. cell phones don't work in the London underground n/t

[Pallas180]

54. July -July - "mostly they were born in England" - did you

ever hear of Italian-Americans, African_Americans, Greek Americans.

people keep their national identities..and tend to congregate together...and cheer for the country of their ancestry, right?, as well as eat the foods of their ancestry, may maintain the language of
their ancestry, and their interest in its wellbeing.

Those are first generation Brits - closer to original origin, dont you think?

[Henny Penny]

79. And it looks like you're off to a good start!

Welcome to our world July x2!



:hi: :hi: :hi:

[moggie]

61. Bit puzzled by that

Unless I'm misremembering the report, the "fiddling with his bag" was described by a passenger who was standing next to him. Yet the bomb is believed to have been detonated on the upper deck of the bus, towards the rear. Standing is not allowed on the upper deck, for stability reasons. I use London buses, and you'll sometimes get one or two standees up there, hanging around near the stairs (which wouldn't be at the back, on that model of bus) - mostly tourists, who don't know better. But if a regular traveller was standing close to the alleged bomber near the back, that suggests the upper deck was full of standees, and I've never seen a driver allow this, even when the buses are very busy. Can anyone point me to a non-tinfoil article which confirms whether he was standing or sitting?

[moggie]

63. Ah yes, here we are

From a Sunday Mail article:

He kept reaching into the bag at his feet, thrusting his backside towards Richard's face every time.

That certainly sounds like he was standing. But ABC News says:

someone was seen on the top floor fiddling with a bag

So I guess I was wrong, and there were many people standing on top.

[fedsron2us]

91. You are not the only one puzzled by the bus bombing.

All the tube attacks occurred within 50 seconds of each other at 08.50, a very precise coordination for suicide bomb attacks. The explosion on the bus did not occur until nearly an hour later at 09.47.

I have seen two explanations for this anomaly. The first states that the bomber originally tried to get on the tube and that it was problem getting a Northern line train that drove him onto the buses. The second claims that the iconic red London bus was always the target. The initial theory seems very weak because if the bomber just wanted to blow up a tube train he could have got on one of the other routes out of Kings Cross such as the Victoria Line. He should have had time to do that before the other bombs went off. The latter theory of a trophy target does not explain the delay. If the bomber just wanted to destroy a red bus then any route out of Kings Cross would have done and the terrorist would have gone straight to the bus stop. I know that the that London traffic is bad but it does not usually take that long for a number 30 bus to get from Kings Cross to Tavistock Square. Indeed, according to the official journey planner the entire route from Hackney to Marble Arch takes no more than 45 minutes. This suggests the bomber must have spent at least an hour hanging around after his original arrival at the Thameslink station at 0830 to catching the bus. It is possible that he was held up by the crowds of people driven off the tube by the other attacks but it still suggests a pause. As the Jane's Defense analyst said 'it does not fit'.

Maybe the bomber was having second thoughts.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=24&art_id=vn20050713070848300C875543

edit for link

[moggie]

96. I never thought that aspect was puzzling

My first thought that day was that a combination of tube and bus bombs made a lot of sense: shut down the tube network, commuters take to the buses instead, and then they start blowing up. If anything, the surprise was that only one bus was targeted.

[fedsron2us]

99. Buses out of Kings Cross are always busy

even when the Tube is running. You would not have to wait to find your targets. I suppose the CCTV in the station will have this bombers movements taped so I expect this particular conundrum will be resolved in due course.

[varun]

20. We should give Pakistan some more F-16s

and $3 billion cash...for spreading terrorism around the world <sarcasm>

[JCMach1]

24. Pakistan has Never really had control over the tribal areas

on the border with Afghanistan

[varun]

26. I'm talking about Karachi, Rawalpindi...etc

where most of the Al Qaeda leaders have been caught recently.

80% of the Pakistanis support Bin Laden. Need I say more?

[Frederik]

67. But it's funny how

Musharraf seems to be able to stop Taliban attacks in Afghanistan. Considering how the ISI practically owned the Taliban in Afghanistan. Terrorism has been used as a tool of Pakistani geopolitics for 25 years, prominent al-Qaida members like Omar Saed Sheikh have also been ISI agents. Maybe Bin Laden is hanging out in the North West Frontier Territory, in lawless Pashtun tribal land, but he needs dialysis treatment regularly and he reportedly gets it in Pakistani military hospitals.

[Pallas180]

53. Frederik, agreed, Musharraf playing it both ways of necessity, the Islamis

ts have been trying to assassinate him. Big pro Bin Laden population.

But I didnt know about the training camps. You would think they would stop that. On the other hand if they have the eye in the sky
watching those training camps, and insiders taking names and addresses, then at least we know where they are being trained and where they are going when they leave the camp.

If Musharraf is cooperating in that way, it would be very helpful.
In providing insider info.

By the way, I love your Neo Con Fascist Thrid Reich logo -- may I borrow it?

[varun]

85. Training camps in Pakistan (ALLY in WOT)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1692621,00.html
Analysis: how Pakistan became a hotbed for terrorists


"...For quite some time, there has been a network of contacts between British extremists and the Jihadi organisations based in Pakistan. Once contact has been made with these young people, they become influenced by them and are encouraged to visit the training camps...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4679563.stm
Religious extremism in Pakistan

...The family of one of the suspected bombers has confirmed that he studied religion in Pakistan, although it is not clear that he went to one of the Islamic schools which have been accused of fostering extremism.

The path to Pakistan is one that has been taken by many high-profile extremists...

[Carolab]

97. Don't forget the AQ Khan network and its weapons sales.

I believe North Korea and Iran were good customers, as well as Syria, Libya and Iraq?

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/khan_memo.html

[bribri16]

5. Now if the UK were to act like the US, they would bomb the hell out of

Pakistan. Which shows you how stupid our Afghanistan and Iraqi war actions are.

[bassman79]

14. And the patsies...

What a joke. Where did these kids get high-grade super-light military explosives? Why was Scotland Yard saying right after the bombing definitively there was no suicide bombers? How did they know about the drill being run at the same time? (The chances of that being coincidence are astronomical)

Well I guess now that they have their bombers and they are all dead, that wraps up this case nice and tity, how convienent...

[Matilda]

15. There was one surreal moment on the Friday

when a uniformed police office (not Ian Blair, his title was AC
someone) spoke about the passengers who had seen a man looking
nervous and fiddling with his bag. He said that police would like
to interview this person.

My mouth fell open - he really didn't get it at all. That man was
splattered all over the nearby walls.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. That's a standard police phrase

and he'd look a lot more stupid if he said "we assume he's dead, even though we don't have proof of that, so we just won't bother trying to look for him", not to say negligent.

[CJCRANE]

71. There was another slip

when one of the police in the press conference on Friday said "four bombers" and then hastily corrected it to "four bombs".

It's standard OP though for them to only reveal information once they've got hard evidence.

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. They didn't say 'definitively'

they said there were no indications they were suicide bombers.

The 'drill' has been comprehensively debunked all over DU. Private companies run disaster recovery drills all the time - the chances of one running on the same day were very good indeed (London has a lot of buisnesses, you know). More than 50%, I'd say.

No, it's not wrapped up - they're holding a fifth man, related to one of the suspected bombers. And they are still trying to work out who else was involved - at this stage, they don't seem to think one of the bombers constructed the bombs (the explosives, though no-one has called them 'super-light', were military grade, and so the origin of them is a vital question).

[LivingInTheBubble]

103. Where was the drill debunked?

I thought there was an actual recording from the radio 5 interview with the guy who stated the drill had the same details and ran during the same time as the actual bombs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

107. Yes - it was for a private company

held in one room, with the company's crisis managers. As I said, this is the kind of disaster drill that is run regularly in larger companies (Power said the company had over 1000 employess in London). When I worked in one, the disaster recovery plans had to be checked every year, and run through (in that case, sending people offsite for a few days) every couple of years. So the chances of the bomb going off on the day that one company was running a disaster drill would be good. The crisis manager had picked the same underground stations (I've also heard he had bombs going off in overground railway stations too, but I haven't heard a clip confirming that) - which shows he knows his stuff. King's Cross was an obvious target, and Liverpool St. isn't that surprising either (both interchanges serving large overground stations). Only Edgware Road is slightly unusual (and I haven't heard that that was in the scenario - he just said "the same stations"). The time is obvious too - the rush hour.

[Stella_Artois]

114. Got a link to this anywhere ?

To the DU discussion or elsewhere ?

[muriel_volestrangler]

116. Here's a link to an email from Peter Power himself

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=46961&mesg_id=47397

and the audio of what he said on Radio 5 Live:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/audio/090705exercise_clip_2.mp3 (longer clip: http://www.prisonplanet.com/audio/090705exercise_clip.mp3 )

[Stella_Artois]

113. Got anything to back this up

Proof that the people who are claimed to be the terrorists in fact were not ?

Or anything at all ?

Or is this conjecture ?

[bassman79]

17. The Bomber's "Documents"

Did you all see that the police say they learned the identity of the suicide bombers by finding one of the bombers "documents", aparantly unsinged, which apparantly had the name of every bomber written on it. Wow, what a break in the case. Kind of reminds me of the magic passport that somehow survived the crash and then collapse of the World Trade Center, but which proved who the terrorist was. Hmmmmm.....

From: London bombers 'were all British'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676577.stm

Head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch
Peter Clarke said documents identifying three of the
men were found near three blast sites.

Q&A: The hunt for London bombers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4677509.stm

By Frank Gardner
BBC security correspondent

The BBC's security correspondent Frank Gardner
outlines the day's events.

What was the most significant development on Tuesday?
First and foremost the discovery of the explosives,
the discovery that these were almost certainly four
suicide bombers - the first suicide bombings in
Western Europe.

...
THE RELEVANT SECTION:

Does anything surprise you about Tuesday's
developments?
I do think it very strange that they were able to find
these documents belonging to these bombers.

Maybe they thought they were going to paradise so it
didn't really matter but it allowed the police to
trace where they came from very quickly. It was a
strange thing to do.

[PennyLane]

25. Paper trail

"Maybe they thought they were going to paradise so it
didn't really matter but it allowed the police to
trace where they came from very quickly. It was a
strange thing to do."

Didn't the Madrid bombers do the same thing? Left documents in strategic locations that identified them. Must be a trademark thang.....

[wookie294]

39. I think it's possible their egos let them get identified

The 9/11 bombers left flight training manuals in their rental car at the Boston airport. I think they wanted their identities to be known. It's all about ego, imho.

[daleo]

19. I am looking forward to trials and evidence.

For a change, we just might see some actual trials and evidence, which I hope will be kept open to the public. Even if the bombers are dead, someone provided the bombs. I would like to see an honest to God trial.

[rocktivity]

22. Well, isn't this convenient

...Armed police raided six addresses in West Yorkshire yesterday, including the homes of three of the men, who they now know travelled to Luton in a hired car last Wednesday to join the fourth man.

...The raids came after the discovery of driving licences and credit cards at the scenes of the explosions, and a telephone call from the mother of Hasib Hussain, who asked police to try to trace her son.

How fortunate for the police--and how suspcious that such obvious clues were left behind. This reminds me too much of the passport that was found intact in the WTC rubble. And how do they know they were "recruited?" Maybe they got together and planned the whole thing of their own accord.

:headbang:
rocknation

[wookie294]

38. Timothy McVeigh wasn't "recruited"

I don't think the London bombers were "recruited," either. I think it's become "fashionable" among a tiny sect of Muslims to blow-up the "infidels." And George Bush gives them "purpose" in life. The best thing that ever happened to these folks is George Bush.

[Pallas180]

55. WOOKIE , you are so right!

"The best thing that ever happened to these folks is George Bush."

:toast:

On Edit - but McVeigh did recruit others, and the Army base he was out of, was it NOrth Carolina or South Carolina, is said to be a hotbed of Aryan nation types, anti -govt in the rank and file.

Think about that. So we can have home grown Americans who hate the government and want to kill innocents, and foregein born who hate the government and want to kill innocents - in this country.

The world is a mess. Georgie has united it into a warring mass of hatred and killing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. The question is how they got hold of the explosives

which would not normally be available to the average Briton. That's what most strongly points to someone else being involved. Either they were 'recruited', or they had to search for someone with access to explosives (not easy, I'd have thought, without alerting people - you'd have to know someone pretty well before you ask them if they could supply you with bomb materials).

[fedsron2us]

77. Amidst all the emotive talk this is a crucial point.

This stuff must have been smuggled into the Britain and that requires an international organisation. Finding young male dupes willing to die for their twisted cause was never going to be that difficult. Governments and religions have been exploiting that human trait for centuries. Getting high grade military plastic explosive into the UK was likely to have been much harder. This task was a major headache for the IRA and they were careful not to waste their bomb making material. Indeed, their largest semtex bomb, planted in a failed attack on Hammersmith bridge in 1996, weighed in at only 32 lb. By contrast the bombers on 7th July 2005 appear to have used approximately 40 lbs of a similar type of explosive in their four attacks. In addition, they are said to have left 'substantial' amounts behind in their car and in one of their base houses in Leeds. Since they were not expecting to come back this was bound to be found. This suggests that the organisers of the attack have so much ordinance in the UK that they can afford to lose it. The question Tony Blair's government needs to answer is why has it spent billions of dollars invading Iraq to protect the UK from supposed WMD when its security agencies seems to be unable to prevent large amounts of explosive from getting across the borders and killing British citizens.

[Pallas180]

78. FEDS - they could have an inside man in the army, brit citizen

but new citizen or muslim ancestry with access to the explosives and
sneaking little bits out. That stuff can be molded to shoes or whatever right?

I have trust that your bobbies and Scotland Yard have figured that out and they'll find what's missing and who took it if he's still in the country.

America is sending non citizen muslims, mexicans and others to the war in Iraq. You may have a similar situation I'm thinking in Britain.

[fedsron2us]

89. From my brief experience as a boy soldier

this is unlikely. British army ordinance is very closely monitored. They even make you count the bullets in and out when on the rifle range. Moreover, plastic explosives is specialist gear. It is not distributed to the average soldier. Given that British Muslims and Asians in general do not volunteer for the army I would be very surprised if they got their explosives from this source. If they did then security failure is catastrophic and the British government have even more questions to answer.

[rustydad]

111. How it works

M5 or M6 or CIA finds a Pakistani who they turn into an agent. The agent prowls around Muslim communities going to coffee shops and the like. He starts conversations with various young and gullable potential recruits. After a long period of creating "friendships" he begins to fan their fires for retribution of British and US aggression in the Middle East. Likely shows them graphic pictures of Abu Griab and Gitmo. Get's them on fire with hatred for the UK. Then he guides them into developing "their" plan to attack London. He supplies the bombs, trains them in use, provides the logistics of travel, targets, timing, etc. They carry it out and the "agent" walks away unknown. This was an inside deal pure and simple. Worked for Bush (9-11) and now for Blair. "I'll protect you sheeple from the big bad dark skined A-rabs..........ha...ha..ha" Bob

[dflprincess]

88. It reminds me of the Guilford Four

Gerry Conlon and his three friends who were tried and convicted as IRA bombers...It came out later that the police buried evidence that proved they were innocent. (Daniel Day-Lewis played him in the movie "In the Name of the Father"). Of course, the damn IRA knew they were all innocent and kept their mouths shut also.

[Matilda]

120. I read in a local paper that there were credit cards and drivers' licences

left behind.

That's very interesting - I've always heard that after a nuclear
holocaust, the cockroaches will be the only things left, but
apparently there'll also be millions of credit cards floating
around as well.

:sarcasm:

Edit: added sarcasm just in case you think I believe this garbage.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bucky]

98. If you outlaw suicide bombs, only outlaws will have suicide bombs

or something like that.

[Lilith Velkor]

117. Suicide bombers should get the death penalty!

:crazy: