Vatican urges jail for kerb crawlers

[emad]

John Hooper in Rome
Wednesday July 13, 2005
The Guardian

The Vatican has for the first time backed the jailing of prostitutes' clients as a way of ending what it calls "a form of modern slavery".

A document issued by the Vatican department that deals with migration said clients "must receive something more than a social condemnation and be confronted with the full rigour of the law". It cited with approval legislation introduced in Sweden in 1999 which provided for sentences of up to six months in jail.

The statement, issued after a two-day conference on prostitution and human trafficking hosted by Vatican in June, said the number of women around the world taking to the streets had "grown dramatically". It said "a growing number of men search out prostitutes more to dominate them than for sexual satisfaction", adding that the clients needed help as well as punishment because of their "deep-rooted problems".

At the heart of the Vatican's document was the argument that "selling your body on the street is not something you would voluntarily choose to do". Prostitution was thus "an offence to the dignity and a serious violation of human rights".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,12272,1527147,00.html

SO next time the Popemobile breaks down on the Via Dolorosa........

[geek tragedy]

1. About damn time. Trafficking is a MAJOR human rights issue.

People can pooh-pooh it and claim it's all about puritanical views towards sex, but the reality is that the demand for vagina-on-demand is fueling sex slavery and trafficking of children.

[MindPilot]

2. salvery my ass!!

Hookers get paid, and they get paid pretty darn well from what I seen. Legalize it, tax it, regulate it; problem solved.

[geek tragedy]

8. Blech.

You really ought to read up on prositution, sex trafficking, and how globalization has made this a huge international human rights issue.

[MindPilot]

14. prostitution & traffiking are two different things

If you are talking about the sex trafficing involving kids and the unwilling young people in the sex-tour industry, yes I'm with you 100%. But that hooker walking down the street near my house is pulling in an easy $500 an hour; she ain't no slave.

[geek tragedy]

15. $500/hour? Have you asked for her rate card?

Do you know what the typical relationship between pimp and prostitute is?

A lot of sex trafficking also involves adult women who have been effectively kidnapped and held prisoner. They are raped by each and every horny motherfucker that thinks he has a right to vagina-on-demand.

[MindPilot]

18. Yeah the pimp takes the money and pays her some

just like every other employer who sells the work of their employees.

One more reason to legalize it, tax it, and regulate it.

[geek tragedy]

19. "Just like every other employer who sells the work of their employees?"

Wow. Just, wow.

I assume you think that most employers control their employees through drugs and violence.

[MindPilot]

23. Not drugs so much

but I have been in work situations where violence was used. Most employers control their employees through the threat of removing their ability to receive an income. That means firing.

My point is that everybody is prostituted and exploited to a certain degree. What is the difference between the women who sells her vagina on the street to the man who sacrifices his lungs in a coal mine? When a man does it we call it "work".

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. YES they do...

...IF the entire area of business has been declared illegal and driven underground.

Now, IN PLACES WHERE IT'S LEGAL, an abused employee has an avenue of recourse, and therefore it becomes just like any other employment.

[Kraklen]

81. All the more reason to legalize it.

[hunter]

28. Julia Roberts "Pretty Woman" prostitution is pretty damned rare.

You've been watching too much HBO, MindPilot.

[fasttense]

3. A rather enlightened view of prostitutes. Surprising

especially coming from a neo conservative religious organization like the Catholic church. Their usual track is to condemn prostitutes as sinners and ignore the johns. But the US will never condemn johns/prostitution because they make too much money off them. What would Nevada do?? What would the porn queens and producers do?? Where would the repukes get their money from???

[Dr.Phool]

4. There's a difference between prostitution and trafficking.

Trafficking is a form of slavery, whether it's for sex, labor, or anything else.

And what do a bunch of celibate old men know about sex anyway? I mean besides pedophilia.

[geek tragedy]

6. Unfortunately, they are not separate things so much as two sides

of the same coin.

They are both fueled by the same demand, and good luck separating the two when immigrants and globalization are involved.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Do you deny the existence of prostitution that is NOT slavery?

For example, those countries in which it is LEGAL? Are THOSE slaves? Nevada anyone?

Slaves are those who are held against their will. The others are not.

[GoBlue]

5. Jail the slaves...

now that's an enlightened idea. How about we also jail everyone who isn't a criminal? Then the criminals will only be able to prey on themselves.

[geek tragedy]

7. They're talking about jailing the johns, not the prostituted women. eom

[Vickers]

9. So, this must mean they've solved all their sex problems *in* the church?

:shrug:

[madrchsod]

10. if i remember correctly....

at least the church gave up prostitution centuries ago...

[daleo]

11. But what if they are priests?

And the girls just want to give confession?

[oneighty]

12. I wonder

If the pope ever had a personal relationship with a whore, perhaps a sister or an aunt or just a plain old whore. I wonder if he knows how many innocent male and female children of defeated and occupied countries enter into the world of whores in order to eat and perhaps support their aging parents, yes and yes give a little of the dirty money to support their church.

How many whores are being created in Iraq?

Perhaps the good 'Popes' of the world and other do-gooders might address the wars and poverty that put these innocent girls and boys on their backs or knees.

Rave on 180

Damn it.

180

[lateo]

13. But if they want to bugger little boys...

well...they will just look the other way.

Odd.

[Cronus Protagonist]

22. No, they'll watch it all happen with glee

As I'm sure you know they do.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[MindPilot]

16. Serious question: Has there been any research

regarding what creates the demand? There wouldn't be sex tours, and trafficking if the demand were not there. This is free-market supply and demand at its most empirical so what is driving it? Is the pool of sexually available women really that small? The article mention a desire to dominate rather than sexual satisfaction, but didn't go any further.

[geek tragedy]

17. The patriarchy. Men feel entitled to vagina-on-demand, and see no problem

with renting a woman's vagina or mouth.

[MindPilot]

20. How is that different than when a woman rents my hands and brain

to fix her computer?

I sense there may be a little issue here you have with men.

[geek tragedy]

21. Let me guess--I'm a man-hating lesbian right? Hairy legs, hairy pits,

no sense of humor.

Why not just call me a bull-dyke?

[atreides1]

29. Why Would Anyone Think That

While you have made some good points, so have others, and yet you've given little regard to the questions that they have posed.

And no I don't think that you're a man-hating lesbian, and having hairy legs or pits would be a matter of personal choice, not an indication of your sexual preference, as for the sense of humor, well
I've read some your postings in other threads, and some strike me as humorous.

Why would you want someone to call you a bull-dyke?;)

[geek tragedy]

33. I do have hairy pits and hairy legs, not because I resist the patriarchy,

but because I'm a natural-born dude. Even heterosexual.

I would just ask all of the men out there who think that sex is just work one question:

If you're heterosexual, how much would you charge for a blowjob? Would you be offended if I suggested that your wife, mother, sister, or daughter sucked dick for money? Would you want someone suggesting to your daughter to become a prostitute?

[MindPilot]

30. I was gonna stop at man-hating...

you give me way way too much credit.

Frankly, I didn't even know you are female--I took a guess.

I asked a serious question and you dove right in with an it's-all-the-fault-of-those-horrid-men sort of response.

[geek tragedy]

34. I AM a man. I was making a mockery of your "you must hate men" comment.

Keep the misogyny under check there. If you slip, you might call someone a Feminazi.

For the record, I wasn't criticizing all men. Most men don't stick their dicks into rented orifices.

[northzax]

41. actually, most men do

it's just a more subtle means of exchange. Unless you wait until you are actually in love with someone to have sex with them? It is an exchange, in my single days, I never took someone out expecting sex, but I sure didn't get sex if I didn't take them out, right? it's all a trade off.

I pay a plumber, I carpenter, a masseuse and a chiropractor to do things for me, why can't I pay someone to suck me off, if we are both consenting adults?

please note, most prostitution is abusive and exploitative. But that is more a function of it being illegal than the nature of the beast. There's a reason it's called the oldest profession, By the way, I happen to know, through a friend, a $2500/hour 'escort' (they went to college together) last year, she made $350,000. that's 10 times my income last year. not too shabby, huh? There is also a street walker addicted to crack on my block, she is the flip side, forced into it by circumstance and addiction.

so there are two sides, and I'm not saying my friend of a friend is happy with her lifestyle, but she makes too damn much money to quit yet. Hell, I used to hate my job, a lot of people work demeaning jobs for the money, you know?

[geek tragedy]

44. Wait, you're equating dating with prostitution? I'll bet you don't tell

your dates that. . . .

There were gladiators in ancient Rome that did quite well for themselves too. Doesn't change the nature of the beast, however.

[northzax]

46. no, but I'm still paying to have sex, right?

so you think it is always, catagorically wrong to compensate someone in exchange for sexual activity? yes or no.

[geek tragedy]

47. I double-dog dare you to tell a woman you're dating or want to date

that you consider dating "paying for sex." After dinner would be an especially good time to clarify your mutual understanding.

Oy, oy, oy.

[MindPilot]

50. Misogyny? Feminazi? Did some-one order Flame Bait?

That's always the last word isn't it? If you don't fall into lock-step agreement that two adults buying and selling something one has and the other wants is automatically an egregious assault on civilization itself, you're a misogynist.

[geek tragedy]

52. No, it's the accusation of man-hating that flies out of some folks'

mouths when they get exposed to feminist ideas they don't like.

[PaulaFarrell]

31. Well, a few slight differences

You're unlikely to contract any STD's in that situation. You're unlikely to be beaten or humiliated. You're probably not putting yourself in an extremely vulnerable position with a total stranger when doing your 'job'. And while there may be women who don't find prostitution degrading, the vast majority aren't doing it out of choice. And while we're on the subject, everyone's assuming the prostitutes are women. Huge number of rent-boys out there. Are you honestly willing to rent out your own ass as well as your hands and brains? If not, then why is it good enough for some people but not you?

[MindPilot]

35. If anyone was willing to pay for *my* ass, I'd damn sure rent it out

but I can make more with my hands and brains. I'm sure there are many jobs we can think of with similar physical risks--very few however that also include the risk of arrest.

During my time as a tech at a car dealer, I had a gun pointed at my head, ultimately required major surgery for a back injury, had more stitches than I can count, and on one occasion I reached under a seat and pulled my hand back with a hypodermic stuck in it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. You might as well condemn me for wanting a driver-on-demand

when I call a taxi.

[geek tragedy]

36. Would you rather have your wife or daughter become a taxi driver

or a prostitute?

How much money would some fella have to offer you for fellatio?

I'm sure you're not insulted, because we're just talking about work, after all.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. I won't say what I'd do or how I'd feel, but one thing is sure:

I wouldn't want them to be ARRESTED for that.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. That's two, mister.

PLEASE keep going. I WANT you to.

[geek tragedy]

43. Two of what? If it's just honest work, why would such comments be

considered inflammatory? If it's not degrading, why not encourage one's family members to take it up?

The fact is that prostitution--with very rare Pretty Woman--is all about the sexual exploitation of women who live in a society without true equality of opportunity. It's not the doctor's or accountant's daughter that turn to it. The vast, vast majority of women who are prostitutes would like to quit, but can't for various reasons.

Would you support programs to help women leave the prostitution industry by providing job training and lifestyle coaching?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. You think such programs are the same thing as

declaring the activity illegal and jailing the people involved? Or that they require such outlawing to be feasible?

[geek tragedy]

51. I personally don't think that the prostitutes should go to jail--only

the paying customers.

The demand is the problem, not the supply.

[MindPilot]

60. Once again what generates the demand?

Men want sex, are willing to not only pay--in some cases a lot--for it, but risk arrest and public humiliation if caught. These same men would--according to our societal norms--otherwise be having sex with their wives, girlfriends, their wives' girlfriends (sorry i couldn't resist), dates whatever. Instead they go for the high-price, high-risk method.

It looks to me like there is a huge underlying problem here that isn't being addressed.

[geek tragedy]

62. Society raising men to feel entitled to sex without question is what

generates that demand. They want sex with someone they don't have to treat like a real human being.

Look at all of the angry responses one gets when suggesting that men shouldn't be allowed to buy sex.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. There are other causes for angry responses

For instance, incredibly wrong-headed arguments with a tint of RW-ish holier-than-thou-ness.

THOSE tend to elicit angry responses too.

[geek tragedy]

70. Most of the anti-trafficking community are hardcore leftwing

activists.

It's viewed as a women's rights issue.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. Of course it is, and has JACK SHIT to do with prostitution legalization.

How many times do I have to repeat that?

What are you trying to do, imply that I condone slave trafficking?

[geek tragedy]

77. You're the one who suggested that opposing legalization is

a rightwing talking point. I was correcting your error.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. OPPPOSING LEGALIZATION AND OPPOSING SLAVERY AREN'T THE SAME THING!

JESUS H. CHRIST!

[geek tragedy]

85. Guess what happens in places like Germany and Canada when

the number of women willing to become prostitutes is unable to satisfy the demand of all those enlightened men who want to rent a vagina?

That's right--they start importing poor women from Romania. That's sex trafficking.

[Susang]

71. No, you are suggesting that women shouldn't be allowed to sell it

At least that's how it comes off. Seems like just another control of women's bodies to me.

[geek tragedy]

72. And prostitution isn't a way of controlling women's bodies? eom

[Susang]

89. Nice try

But no cigar.

This is a legitimate point and trying to fling it back on me is not going to change that. Many women (some of them real live feminists) believe that if a woman is in control of her own body, she has the right to do with it what she wants, including selling it's services and any attempt to make this illegal by men such as the Vatican is an attempt to control women.

If prostitution were legalized, regulated and monitored, why is it your moral business if a woman (or a man for that matter) sleeps with someone for payment?

[geek tragedy]

90. It isn't about the sex. If there were really meaningful choice involved,

whatever floats their boat. If a person has a full range of options, and decides "I really want to be a ho!" then so be it.

My point is that prostitution draws in the poor and the desperate. Industrialized social democracies like Canada and Germany have found that they don't have enough native women to satisfy the demand for sex "workers."

So, they bring in poor, desperate women from places like Romania.

It is a form of gender and economic-based exploitation and degradation.

[Susang]

96. Not everyone wants to be a waitress

Or a busdriver. Or a file clerk. But some people end up in those jobs and don't mind doing them. Do you speak of them with the same disdain you just used when describing a woman who might not mind being a prostitute? And very few people ever have a full range of options open to them.

I think this need many have to ban prostitution smacks of paternalism far more than of need to protect women from trafficking. Trafficking is a serious problem and should be dealt with in ways that actually make a difference. Unfortunately, making prostitution illegal has only served to harm the women it's supposed to protect by making them criminals.

[arwalden]

73. They Do?

Can you back up these assertions?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Biology does, that's what.

People who are in the "sex is evil" camp tend to forget that.

[geek tragedy]

67. Sex isn't evil--exploitation is. As a so-called Commie, you should

know that prositution was MUCH less common in the USSR than it is in Russia today.

Why? Because those with money and power--almost always men--are now able to exploit those without.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. The USSR was a dictatorship. Tyranny. I fail to see your point.

You just pick meaningless information (my tongue-in-cheek screenname) to edulcorate fallacious rhetoric.

[geek tragedy]

82. The point is that prositution is a form of economic-based exploitation.

A society where women have all the same opportunities as men will run short on prostitutes.

Which is EXACTLY what is happening in places like Canada and Germany. They can't find enough Canadian and German women to service men in the sex industry, so they import them from Eastern Europe.

Guess what that's called?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. No time to answer. Gotta go.

And if you think that means you won the argument, you're an idiot. I assume you aren't. Bye.

[arwalden]

53. Any Idiot Can Make Inflamatory Remarks About Any Profession...

... secretaries, garbage collectors, used car salesmen, tax collectors.

[Susang]

55. I've heard quite a few about waitresses

;-)

[geek tragedy]

88. So if I called your mother a secretary, you'd be offended?

If prostitution were illegal, would you want pimps recruiting your daughters?

[arwalden]

93. Oh You, Silly... Assuming That Was Her Job, Why Would I Be Offended?

But it doesn't take a lot of creativity to find an offensive way to describe a secretary or any aspect of her job. I have little doubt that you're up to the challenge.

Let's say your mom is a maid. Gee she scrubs shit out of toilets. She mops up piss off the floor. I guess that makes her a shit-scrubber, eh? A piss-washer?

Play naive all you want... I'm not convinced.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. The lone voice of reason in that article:

Franco Grillini, a member of the main opposition party, the Left Democrats, and a leader of Italy's main gay rights group, Arcigay, said: "Prostitution, if it is between two consenting adults, ought not to be considered an offence."

[MindPilot]

32. And in all of these kinds of conversations, we seem to leave out

gay prostitution. Seems like if there are no women (or children) involved then it is not an issue.

[arwalden]

40. The Girls On HBO's "Real Sex" Series...

... in the "Bunnyranch" aren't being FORCED to be there.

<< At the heart of the Vatican's document was the argument that "selling your body on the street is not something you would voluntarily choose to do". Prostitution was thus "an offence to the dignity and a serious violation of human rights".>>

In fact, those prostitutes really seem to like their work. I'd hardly consider that to be a violation of their human rights.

Legalize it and tax it... health-inspect it, regulate it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. I think geek tragedy may have something to tell you.

Something about your family.

My self-control is nothing short of superhuman.

[VegasWolf]

48. Commie, your self control is Herculean! My admiration! nt

[geek tragedy]

45. Have you seen HBO's other specials on prostitution?

I'm guessing not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. Did they cover places in which it was legal? If so, which ones? (nt)

[arwalden]

56. Have You? Which Ones? Tell Me About Them.

[July_July]

58. I assume

geek tragedy is referring to episodes of the "America Undercover" series. Needless to say, those shows don't offer much credibility to the "legalize it" argument.

[Susang]

59. How so?

I watch America Undercover regularly and cannot remember seeing anything that specifically deals with this issue other than the one Arwalden mentioned. I have seen shows on HBO that take place in Nevada (where prostitution is legal) that have highlighted the pros and cons of the issue quite succinctly.

[July_July]

68. this is the best i could do

to find a website for the shows i'm talking about, since they are pretty old.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388574/

The episodes center around real-life porosities in Atlantic City and New York (I think). After watching them, I don't see how anyone could support legalizing prostitution. Most of the women were abused as children, addicted to drugs, etc. It's a sad situation that the right side of the law won't change.

[Susang]

78. That's not good enough for me

Seeing as prostitution is illegal here in the states and those shows would be about prostitution and that is carried out under illegal and dangerous circumstances. Of course it would portray a sad state of affairs and portray the dangers of life on the streets.

Now how about the shows HBO has aired where prostition is legal? They've shown plenty of them. Didn't you see those?

[July_July]

83. of course i've seen them

and if you can still sit there and tell me that those women have it mentally all together, and aren't being exploited in some way, then i don't know what to tell you.

[Susang]

95. How can you tell me they don't

Are you a psychic? Perhaps a psychologist that specializes in television documentaries?

You seem to believe that they are all miserable creatures that were victimized or tricked into their jobs, even though the women in those documentaries say otherwise. What is your proof, other than your opinions or your feelings?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

61. The one with the female brunette cop doing entrapment???

THAT's an argument against legalization???

ALL the evils portrayed there are A DIRECT RESULT OF PROSTITUTION BEING ILLEGAL AND UNREGULATED.

[geek tragedy]

64. The women were desperate and only doing it because they had no

other options. They felt degraded, dehumanized, etc etc.

Lots of really damaged people.

[Susang]

66. There are damaged people everywhere

I notice that you didn't comment on the article I linked to below. Did you read it?

[geek tragedy]

74. Yes. Written by a staunch pro-legalization advocate.

What will those women do when they're forty? How many are doing that because of poverty and desperation?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. Let me see if I get this straight

You're dismissing an argument in favor of legalization because the person who made it is - oh the shock - in favor of legalization?

You crack me up.

[geek tragedy]

86. It didn't explore all sides. It didn't talk about the lack of opportunity

or the exploitation going on.

[Susang]

91. Just because it didn't say what you wanted it to

Doesn't mean it wasn't fair. Or didn't you read this paragraph:

Exploitation is a problem faced by all women, not just prostitutes, and it needs to be tackled at its roots - in the family, the workplace and schools; class inequalities and restrictive ideas about sexuality also need to be addressed, among other issues. Women's subordination and their impeded access to valuable resources are entrenched in these social institutions. Prostitution is only an expression, not the cause, of such inequalities.

[geek tragedy]

92. The point it omits is that if women have other choices, they don't become

prostitutes.

If you list the possible jobs out there, prostitution is at the very, very bottom of the list for the vast majority of women.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Go ask the ones in the Netherlands, Germany etc. if they feel the same way

What do you think will be their response?

[Susang]

57. These women would disagree with the Vatican

~snip~
South Korean sex workers have been on a hunger strike in front of the National Assembly building, protesting the new new anti-prostitution law for more than one and a half months. On October 7 and November 1, more than 2,000 sex workers took to the streets of Seoul in protest. Braving the stigma of prostitution with only sunglasses and masks, female sex workers have been making the strongest public statement ever in Korea against threats to their livelihood and well-being - and those of their families. But no one is listening. Their hunger strike began on November 2.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FL22Dg01.html

A fascinating article written by an expert in the field. It examines all sides of this issue and manages to not judge anyone. Amazing!

[happyslug]

76. If you want to read the actual document:

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=74049

[0007]

94. What can be said that hasn't been said before?

[Moderator]

97. Time for a lock

This thread has drifted. If posters wish to discuss the pros and cons of prostitution, please start a new thread elsewhere.