Independents Are Having Buyer's Remorse

[CatWoman]

The Schiavo case has led many swing voters to turn their backs on the GOP

Just nine months after giving George W. Bush the crucial swing votes he needed to best John Kerry, political independents are bolting out of the Republican Big Tent. Angered by GOP meddling in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die case, reeling from record gasoline prices, and depressed by the escalating cycle of violence in Iraq and Afghanistan, unaligned voters are suddenly lining up with Democrats to give Bush the lowest ratings of his Presidency.

The disenchantment extends beyond the White House to the GOP Congress: Only 31% of independents say Congress is in touch with their concerns, according to a June 14-15 Fox News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Amid such dismal data, the only good news for Republicans is that the chronically disorganized Democrats have not convinced swing voters that they are any better -- at least not yet.

But that's cold comfort to the GOP. A June 24-26 Gallup Poll shows independents turning thumbs down to much of the President's second-term agenda, including his stay-the-course stance on Iraq, partial privatization of Social Security, and a pro-drilling energy policy. Equally worrisome: Just 15% of indies approve of Bush's handling of the economy, a June 19-22 American Research Group Poll found -- down from 44% last November.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_29/c3943060_mz013.htm

[candy331]

1. Glad they came around however it sure would have been nice if

they could have taken their blinders off earlier, but in this case "better late than never may apply".

[TahitiNut]

4. Every time the Democrats "compromise" or "cooperate" ...

... they send the message that there's some kind of merit in the Republican posture. Unless and until the Democrats are able to project a resounding alternative vision and stake out a firm stance on the basis of justice for ordinary working people, they'll lose the support of non-partisan people only superficially aware of the issues.

It's a profound dialectical mistake for Democrats to attempt to take a moderate "middle-of-the-road" position. It's the concerted will of The People that must accomplish that. In a two-party system, the People are like an oarsman, needing a left oar and a right oar. It's up to the oarsman to decide when to use the oars, and which ones. Right now, the left oar is broken! (Somehow, I think partisans are totally blind to this analogy.)

[Nite Owl]

7. I don't get the dems

reluctance to speak out. To me it just says that they want to lose, they are not offering a true alternative and that is what most people are looking for not more of the same but not quite as bad.

[sidpleasant]

26. It's placing self - preservation above doing right for the country

Too many politicians in both parties spend all their time plotting how to keep their comfy jobs and privileges. For many that means taking the path of being as inoffensive as possible.

Personally I think that Jefferson, Adams, and the other giants who created this country would have vomited at the notion of professional politicians, of a class of career office - holders. Their idea was that the citizens would recognize men of ability and intelligence and send them to Congress for a few years. The selected wise men would reluctantly leave their farms or shops, do their duty, and at the end of a term or two return to their real lives.

[othermeans]

50. That's why we have to continue to support Dean. His comments put the

Republican misdeeds to the forefront and make people think.

[Nightjock]

58. YES!

Exactly what I was thinking!

[LaurenG]

60. Isn't it frustrating

We say this over and over for months and the democrats sit on their hands, except for a handful. Can anyone offer an explanation?

[schrodingers_cat]

75. I've got to make one crucial point regarding the dems

Last I checked, Dem's get interviewed on the corporate networks roughly 25% to the republican's whopping 75%. How can we have a voice if the media itself is strangling it?!? The dems that do get on are the half wit middle of the roaders that won't put up a fight - do you ever see members of the black congressional caucus invited on to argue points? They'd kick some ass if only they could gain a voice on a national level.

[LaurenG]

76. Good point. You're a keeper

I like that. Thanks:-)


on edit: spelling

[TahitiNut]

90. See paragraph 3 of my reply #67 ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1627590&mesg_id=1628551

[HarveyBrooks]

96. Hi schrodingers_cat

"Dem's get interviewed on the corporate networks roughly 25% to the republican's whopping 75%"

Do you have a source or link for that?
It sure would be nice to throw that in the next wingnuts face who whines about the "liberal media."

[XemaSab]

61. It's a fine line

between giving people rope and making them go to the store to get their own rope (which the reps are happily doing).

[OzarkDem]

110. Silence isn't helping Dems

Even though R's have lost favor with voters, Dems haven't gained from that loss. Dems approval ratings in Congress have stayed flat or dropped fairly consistently over the last 3 years. Only 33% rate Dems in Congress as excellent or good. 61% rate them fair/poor.

Appeasement has actually cost them a lot of support.

http://www.pollingreport.com/congjob.htm#Democrats

[CAcyclist]

32. Exactly!nt

[Iowa]

44. Excellent post by TahitiNut!

Well said. I agree completely.

[yorkiemommie1]

54. well put!

... i hope you send this message to the Dem. party too!

[Lorien]

66. A friend's sister recently said that she votes republican just because

"they stand for something"; it doesn't matter if that something destroys America and the planet, she just sees the Dems as the party of whiners without ideas. I try to point out that they don't have a voice within the media-but that argument doesn't go anywhere. You're absolutely right-a moderate posture says that the Right is where all the good ideas are and that's the direction that we should be moving toward. Given a republican and a democrat that acts like one, the public will choose the repug every time. Please DLC-act like an opposition party!!

[TahitiNut]

67. It's a variety of kinds of "fuzzy-headedness" it seems to me.

There's a kind of partisan fervor that says they'll support literally anything that calls itself a "Democrat" ... even Zell Miller ... all in order to gain partisan power, no matter what ideology that party comes to represent. (It's the substitution of means for ends -- the main argument against means justification.) Well, that's exactly the kind of shit that Republicans bought into when they surrendered every traditional "Republican value" to the Fascists. They've completely abandoned federal fiscal responsibility, support for small business owner-operators, local sovereignty at the state and national level, support for personal privacy (especially financial), and separation of church and state. (Yes, that's a traditionally Republican stance.)

There's kind of "Catch-22" that elevates the amplified collective opinion - an anchorless, valueless subservience to the populism of "democracy" ... the will of the screaming mob. These are people for whom the abstracts of "justice" and "equality" and "opportunity" are ephemeral and easily jettisoned in their advocacy ... an advocacy that's often "the best that money can buy."

There's also a weepy victim mentality that couldn't form a stiff upper lip even under the influence of rigor mortis. "It's Ralph's fault!" they lament. "It's the media's fault!" they complain. "It's the leadership's fault!" they weep. Totally deaf to the retort "then do something about it!" these people never look to getting stronger, more assertive, more vocal, or more militant. Instead of figuratively slapping the somnolent up side of their heads they tip-toe off to complain and blame.

It's not sufficient to see and complain about the impediments. It's necessary to map a course over or around them ... or fucking blow them up!

[PATRICK]

72. Piecemeal parity tea party

has to end. Never before has the GOP raised such a whole cloth skull and bones flag, overcome by the temptations of money power and success which they do not owe to the majority of the population. Continuing to "argue" a point here, suggest a "scandal" there, affirms the general illusion and ignores the whole cloth monstrosity. It mirrors the most media deluded image of things to a misinformed public and is limited enough to be spun, woven back into the GOP scheme. The media is not exactly a neutral player in this mess but the Dem opposition goes before it as to a disinterested, thinking, reasonable public mediator.

When a LOT of people KNOW better, not just because of ideology or activism, but know we are not being adequately led as an opposition party. The pretended or actual ignorance of the leadership general position is at times astounding, their posture twisted far backward.

While dead myths are being giving deference, real people bleed.

[calimary]

80. What you said, TahitiNut! It also promotes the mistaken impression

in people's minds - when the Dems capitulate or say things like "well, my opponent makes a good point," or "I agree with the president that..." - that there's really no difference between the two parties. They're all the same. Which is a bunch of hooey as we here all know. There is a WORLD of difference between Democrats and republi-CONS. Several worlds. Many, in fact. Actually, there's an entire galaxy of difference.

It is VITAL that our people stop caving and compromising!!!! DAMN - WHY DON'T THEY SEE THIS?!?!?!?

[mom cat]

6. They did wise up earlier...the vote was rigged.

[Mandate My Ass]

47. I agree, mom cat. This stinks. First the security moms fled now

the independents. I don't think Bush had nearly 50% of public support in 2004, let alone 51% They tried to pretend gay marriage was going to make people vote against their own interests, and I'm sure many did, but not nearly enough to swing an election.

The vote was rigged. Now that they can't possibly hide Bush's unpopularity, they are trying to pretend these low poll numbers are something new.

[PunkPop]

2. "Independents". Translation:

Numbnuts too lazy or superficial to be truly informed but just active enough to drag themselves to the voting booth.

[krkaufman]

3. Thank you.

Much better and more succinctly put than my planned "morons!" statment.

[TrogL]

5. That's rather harsh

I'm not used to the United States' system of die-hard party affiliation. In Canada a party needs to woo its supporters (who can be extremely fickle). It strikes me that Independent voters are those with more of an open mind as opposed to "broken glass Republicans" or the Democratic equivalent.

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Independents in the US tend to be

that part of the America who spend all their time in front of the TV. They only care about politics when it affects them directly (Jobs, gas prices, being sent to Iraq). They are the segment of America that accepted the views of the "Swift Boat Vets" as gospel.

Since things are now starting to look dark, they are turning on Bush. Nothing that is know now, wasn't known in November if you bothered to look.

[jahyarain]

20. lol

how amusing. this mindset is why the democratic party can't get anything done. if you wanna blame someone for bush's "re-election", you may want to look at your own house for not standing up (just once) and not accepting Kenneth Blackwell's vote count. instead of uniting, you keep splitting. Kerry was a lesser evil. still not a liberal. oh, look, days of our lives is on...

[Kelvin Mace]

28. Agreed

I think skulduggery went on in Florida and Ohio (again). However, if the clueless middle who worship at the altar of reality TV got their heads out of their ass for five seconds, we would have won by a wide margin.

BushCo won because they promoted their entire campaign like a TV script for 24.

Kerry got smeared across the landscape for "flip-flopping" which was unfair. What he should have been smeared for was being incoherent.

Even when discussing complicated topics it is possible to be succinct and "on message".

Bush: Senator Kerry was for the war in Iraq before he was against it.

Kerry (if he knew what he was doing): That's because before the war I believed you. Aftewards, I learned you lied.

He should have then launched in an attack of Bush's flip-flops (He opposed Homeland Security before he supported it; opposed a 9/11 investigation before he opposed it, etc).

HAMMER HIM ON IN HIS FAILURES, LIES, AND INCOMPETENCE!

Bush: Senator Kerry holds contradictory opinions.

Kerry: It is something that intelligent people call "nuance". Understanding nuance is the key to successful diplomacy which explains why George Bush's foreign policy is a complete failure.

If I were Kerry I would have done everything possible to "push Bush's buttons" and get him to snap.

"Why haven't you attended a SINGLE funeral of a single serviceman that has died in YOUR war?"

"Why do you laugh when discussing the death of soldiers? What's so damn funny about our boys dying?"

"Can you look into that camera and tell every American that you faithfully completed your service in the Texas Air Guard and did not blow off a SINGLE day of service?"

"Why do you insist that only people who sign loyalty oaths be allowed to attend your town meetings?"

"Why did you disobey your father's sound advice not to invade Iraq?"

"Is it right to allows the deaths and maiming of thousands of American soldiers just so you can upstage you old man?"

You get the idea. Precious LEader would have come across the stage swinging under that kind of questioning.

[jahyarain]

35. ha ha!

yeah, if Kerry had said those things the repub-leaning fence sitters would probably have voted for him. all the ones i have talked to who did vote for the murderer said the same thing: "bush will keep us safer". raising it to orange worked every time. they're now seeing the horrible mistake they've made (all the bright and shiny NEW terrorists the murderer created with Iraq) and need our guidance to help fix what they have created.

[ninkasi]

74. I agree completely

I used to wonder why, when Kerry was accused of flip-flopping, he didn't point out that Bush was against nation building, until he took us to war to do it. Why, when he demanded a clear exit strategy before he was elected, he had none himself.

I would have made Kerry watch the Jon Stewart skit, where then Governor Bush made statements, which were then completely turned around after he stole the presidency. There was so much rich material for us to use against Bush, but our politicians seemed too timid to do it. Howard Dean did, and so did Dennis Kucinich, but people acted as though they were unelectable.

We had plenty of ammunition, we just didn't use it. Every question you listed would have been excellent, but for some reason, Kerry left those questions unasked.

[Pastiche423]

55. "Tend to be"?

Where are you getting your facts, David?

This past November, I voted for (gak) Kerry as a registered Independent.

I registered Independent after the fucked up Democratic Primary of 2004, which did not allow me to vote for my candidate of choice, since the nominee had long been annointed before the primary election in my state.

This after thirty two years of working for, campainging for and fundraising for the Democratic Party.

I rarely watch tv, knew what the Swift Boat Vets were and have cared deeply about politics long before I could vote.

As an Independent, I donate to the DNC (now that Dean is the chairman), but while my values and ethics have remained the same, the Democratic "leadership's" have not.

David, I am truly surprised and sad that you would make such a statement.

[Kelvin Mace]

71. Sorry you are sad

I get my facts from personal experience and what I am reading in newspapers, blogs, etc.

As they say, "you mileage may vary". It may be different in your part of the country.

I am thrilled you are a responsible independent, sadly, quite a few "independents" I have met are not so dedicated.

I did not say "ALL independents ARE" I said "tend to be". You aren't and I certainly am not. Understand that auite a few folks (notice the qualifier) who call themselves "independent" use it as a euphemism for, or interchangebly with, "moderate".

[Lowell]

106. I'm with you Pastiche423

I think there are some real broad brush statements being said about Independents. I was a Democrat before I registered as an Independent. And it has nothing to do with laziness.

I haven't missed vote since 1968. As a Democrat we had a better field in the running years ago. Today I do believe the lines have been blurred between the parties. Joe Liberman, Zell Miller are good examples. I became disillusioned with the Democratic party and their weak stands on many issues.

Independents that I know analyze politics more completely than dyed in the wool party members of either the Democrats or Republicans. They want more bang for the buck and vote accordingly.

Myself I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I find myself infinitely more aligned with the democratic "philosophy" than the republican. The Democratic party just hasn't won me over and I won't have a thing to do with the Republicans. The only Democrat who has really impressed me the most is Howard Dean. I like his statement about being from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. That is what I want to hear. Some real conviction and the guts to back them.

The Democratic party needs to quit trying to please everybody. Quit electing centrist candidates who are hard to differentiate. They need to stand their ground. They also need some fresh blood. You can't keep recycling the same old tired candidates and expect to stir up any strong support. That is why newcomers like Obama are so important. This is where we should be looking. To the future, not some tired, worn out past.

That's just this Independents POV.

[gtar100]

91. My experience of "independents" exactly

The people I've run into who call themselves "independents" also hardly want to talk about politics or discuss things in much depth at all.

It's cultural - "independent" is a word many lazy Americans have latched onto in order to not burden themselves with a point of view. It could very well mean something entirely different in Canada (god bless ya!). After all, the opposition party against Chavez in Venezuela is referred to as the neo-liberals.

[calimary]

84. Yeah, it is rather harsh. But it's also DESERVED.

What's really harsh, the harshest of all, is what their apathy or laziness or indifference or detachment has done to this country. To more than SEVENTEEN HUNDRED families mourning the needless loss of a loved one who was sacrificed in Iraq - a war of LIES. To the women who WILL bleed to death because the Supreme Court is about to be packed with another knuckle-dragging zealot. To the babies who WILL be killed - because their mothers were forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, and then dumped the still-unwanted newborn in some dumpster. To all our children, our elderly, and everyone else who - from time to time - enjoys breathing clean air, walking on clean unpoisoned earth, drinking unpolluted water, and eating uncontaminated food. To all those who will die because they couldn't afford life-saving medical (OR prenatal) care. To all those who will suffer needlessly because stem cell research was foolishly hamstrung by religious fanatics. To America's future as a leader in research and technology, because the science-phobes among the religious wackos would rather take their scientific facts from the Bible than from impartial and secular research, causing a brain-drain that sends our best and brightest to other countries where the word "science" isn't the suffix attached to the word "junk."

I could go on.

But really, it's MIGHTILY difficult to cut these people much slack. If they'd paid attention, if they'd bothered to look beyond the spin and the GOP talking points and the Pox "news" bullshit, if they'd bothered to do ANY critical thinking at all, we would not be in this fix, because the election wouldn't have been close enough to steal.

[TahitiNut]

9. As an Independent, I find your broad-brush stereotype to be offensive.

Partisans: too fucking lazy or afraid of dissent to speak out and educate the political base.

It's a political FIGMO attitude of disengagement. (Fuck It! Got My Opinion!)

No small part of my disgust at the REichbot Republicans is their habit of swallowing, hook-line-and-sinker, whatever talking point their partisan herdsmen program them to spew. If there's a posture that's unthinking and uninformed, it's any brainless partisan!

As a liberal, I'm appalled at the overwhelming number of self-proclaimed (and habitually partisan) 'liberals' who, over the last 30 years, obsessively opted for discretion rather than valor in speaking out against the idiocy spewed by the crazies. Where the hell have the liberals been as the extreme right-wingers monopolized talk radio? Where the hell have the liberals been as the extreme right-wingers monopolized "Christian" groups? Where the hell have the liberals been as the extreme right-wingers monopolized school boards?

I can't even begin to count the times that so-called 'liberals' just walked away from right-wing water-cooler talk. ("It's a waste of time." they'd opine.) Even in my own family, "we don't talk politics because it causes hard feelings" rules gatherings ... even though the Bushbots stll love to plant rheotrical IEDs in any conversation. How many times have I heard DUers say they avoid poltical talk at family gatherings? That's surrender! That's cowardice! Effete elitism that eschews getting its hands dirty is what surrenders democracy. That's what happened in Germany in the 20's. The political left needs street-fighters like the Guardian Angels.

[MGKrebs]

18. While I agree with the sentiment...

I think that trying too hard to leverage the Schiavo case would be detrimental. The whole point is that it should not be a political issue. If we (Dem candidates and leaders) try to push this too hard, it will look no better than what we oppose. They're already leaving, let's let them keep leaving.

If the time comes when the swingers need to be reminded of how Repubs intervened then, I hope we can rely on groups outside the Party to do the reminding.

[PunkPop]

19. Hey, didn't mean to offend

Anybody at DU that is. I guess I was just specifically thinking of this last election. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I'm all for independence. Just think that anybody who even momentarily considered voting for * is a complete dumbass.

[jahyarain]

22. sorry if i took that wrong

and as an independent i totally agree with you: any independent that voted for bush is a complete and utter idiot

[sled]

36. Hell yeah...

Testify!!!

And the most shocking thing is, how many times these so-called "liberals", who whine the most, can't even logically discuss their own opinions, & are reduced to spewing such winners, as "numbnuts", & the like. Personally, I never walk away, & send the neocons ducking, blubbering, & practically in tears, 100% of the time, & I never raise my voice, break a sweat, or resort to name-calling, ever.

I think the problem is, most so-called "liberals" buy into the crap that rolls downhill from the party's "leadership", & are often left with indefensible positions, cause they actually don't even agree with that neocon-lite crapola, but it's what the "leadership" allows them to discuss. Is the most important issue facing America today, "Grand Theft Auto"? You've got to be kidding, & if you're not, God save the Queen, cause we're some fucked, ducks...

Independents, & the like aren't as stupid, as suggested here...not by a long shot, they're just sick of the stench, of that brown cloud, of bull shit, that surrounds Washington.

[TahitiNut]

42. Yep. As I've said before: "Democracy Isn't a Spectator Sport"

Democracy is all about participation. Either we're on the playing field or we're ruled by others! Just like any sport or game, it takes training and education. It's not enough to hide behind the opinions of others - even a "party". Save the "partying" for winning the game.

Elected offices? Either run for office or participate in another candidate's campaign. Lobby. Make sure your local representatives know your name and know you're watching. Hold their feet to the fire.
Community politics? Attend open meetings, voice an opinion, pamphleteer!
Social interactions? Democracy depends on an informed electorate. Do your part! Inform yourself and inform others!
National service? Everyone! Real (small-d) democrats don't depend on others to do their job for them.

Democracy Isn't a Spectator Sport!!!

[heidler1]

40. The truth is that the Dems. deserted Dr. Dean because he loudly told

truth about the situation. The Dems. never did flock to Dennis K. who also saw the situation for what it was and said so. Kerry had a foot on both sides of the Iraqi deal which made me sick, but I did vote for him. This was no time to pussyfoot around the issues. Lieberman was completely wrong and agreed with Bush about Iraq.

How anyone can blame the Independents for the debacle is beyond me. If the half of the Dems. couldn't see through this how can you expect the Independents to save the day. Yes, I'm a registered Democrat.

Iowa is a slightly red state and also a slightly Religious Right state and a bad choice for the Dems. to go with first when choosing their candidate because it increases the likelihood that we will end up with the wrong candidate.

[calimary]

86. Frankly, TahitiNut, you are exceptional as an independent.

You are neither lazy nor apathetic nor detached. And you're absolutely correct - again - that we shouldn't assume all independents are the same. Certainly we know they aren't.

But remember this, too: Few of us here on DU or elsewhere in the liberal/progressive realm are MENSA members or Rhodes scholars. Many of us have only the internet and a short while every day or with some frequency to read in and seriously follow the news, and research and discuss and try to dig up more information on a given issue. And if WE could figure this out, if WE knew this stuff, it WAS available to everyone. Hey, if I could read and find out enough to know, in 2002, that the war was wrong and bogus and wasteful and completely counter-productive and that we shouldn't go there, ANYBODY could have done so. I'm not terribly computer- or internet-literate. I'm not a defense strategist. I'm not part of some high-level government think tank. I'm not a poly-sci major or a psychologist/psychiatrist. I don't have a PhD of any sort. I went to art school and got into news by way of college radio. And if I could figure this stuff out, certainly it was available to others who were motivated, or even just curious. Obviously it was available to you and you certainly took advantage of it and cared enough to look a little deeper, whereby you discovered (and concluded) lots of troublesome things. It was all there for anybody who cared to find out even just a wee bit more for themselves.

But for those who only care enough to get their info from Pox "news" or the limbots of the world or the free republic people or other dittoheads, or even just what they saw Tom Brokaw or Peter Jennings or Larry King talk about for a few paltry minutes between commercial breaks, and DON'T care to think for themselves and DON'T give a damn about anything outside their own little teeny world and their own little pocketbooks, well... those are the people I have little sympathy for. Hell, I wish to God more independents gave a damn like you do. Maybe this whole bush-republi-CON nightmare will motivate some of them a little...

[TahitiNut]

93. While I appreciate the complement ...

... it's my experience that there're uninformed, lazy morans of every political stripe. Indeed, it has always seemed to me that one of the most prevalent reasons the (wo)man-on-the-street calls themself a Democrat or Republican is to cloak themselves in a logo that's a substitute for thinking and learning. Which one? Well, it's mostly about which one is most socially convenient or advantageous. If the boss is a Republican, work life is easier if you are too. So that brings up a question: Why the hell do liberals and Democrats make it easier than Republicans for people to spout the opposing viewpoint? Fuck it! Come down hard on that idiocy. At the same time, insist that people who call themselves Democrats can walk the walk - educate 'em ... beyond mere talking points. (If they can't take it, good riddance.)

[gtar100]

92. Where were the liberals back in the 80's and 90's?

Partying.


NOT everyone of course... but a large portion of our population fell into thinking that getting into politics was bullshit, useless and boring. We are reaping what has been sown.


But I guess the problem with generalizations is that they either generally right or generally wrong. I think we're talking about large sweeping movements and there are always exceptions.

But you're right on... we can't afford to shut up any longer.

[jahyarain]

14. um, i think you may find

more independents here than you think. we are the true open-minded liberals and the only chance the inept democratic party has of survival

[jonnyblitz]

17. i was thinking he/she was referring to fence sitter types

that could go either DEM or GOP..I am an idependent also but wasn't thinking the poster was referring to me. :shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

16. the ones we are supposed to woo and not offend by raising

our voices too loud or showing emotion. the ones we fringe types always scare away. :eyes:

[BlueManDude]

59. Fuck them. They'll make the same mistake in '08.

[TechBear_Seattle]

88. So give me a reason other than, "We ain't them"

And I will happily vote for you. Saying, "We are not as wicked, evil or demented as the opposition" does nothing to get out the vote and, frankly, that was the only clearly stated campaign issue the Dems made in 2000, 2002 and 2004.

[TechBear_Seattle]

87. Correction

Independent voter: A thoughtful American with a strong sense of civic duty who look at *all* the candidates for a given office and choses the one he or she considers to be most reflective of his or her own values, without regard to party affiliattion.

By contrast:

Partisan voter: An American who is too lazy to actually research candidate positions and thus, instead, blindly votes in accord with the wishes of a favored political party regardless of whether the positions taken by said candidate are actually in accord with the voters own values.

I am an independent voter. Why? Because in the last 10 years, the actions of the Democratic Party have proven time and again that I am little more than a meal ticket to them. Why should I, a gay atheist pacifist with a strong libertarian streak, thoughtlessly kowtow to the will of the party that brought us DOMA and DADT, which has overwhelmingly supported religiosity in the national Loyalty Oath, which ignorantly passed in to law some of the worst assaults on civil liberties in the last three generations and which so strongly supported AND CONTINUES TO SUPPORT the illegal invasion of a foreign country? And don't even bother bringing up platforms: I base my opinions of a candidate on their actions, not on the "ain't we super!" propaganda pieces that the parties put out every few years.

Some Democrats -- on the local and state level, but I will even concede a few on the federal -- reflect my values and so I am here, supporting them and their organization. And as much as I dislike the Democratic Party, I loathe the Republicans far more. But don't you DARE accuse me of being lazy, superficial or uninformed when I vote the fact that corporate shills, homophobes, war-mongers and haters of civil liberties do not reflect what I consider to be important. A vote for the lesser of evils is still a vote for evil.

When I believe that the best candidate is a Democrat -- and it often is -- I will vote for the Democrat. When I believe the best candidate is a Republican, a Libertarian or a Green, I will vote for THAT candidate instead. It would be unpatriotic and a dereliction of my civic duty to do otherwise.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Until the Vichy Dems are deposed

and the leadership is given to the Dean faction, we are still screwed. The voter's choice at the moment is GOP and GOP Lite.

[xxqqqzme]

11. the Schiavo grandstanding

disgusted moderate rethugs as well. We had rethugs changing their voter registration affiliation during that dog 'n pony show.

[geckosfeet]

12. Why would any human being with at least a partially functioning

brain vote for commander cuckoo bananas,,, regardless of party affiliation ?!?!?

My suspicion is and has been that RoveCo. stole the second election with fraudulent election counts.

The first one was just handed over by the supreme kangaroo court.

[gratuitous]

13. Well, it's not like they weren't warned

Okay, they weren't warned by the popular media, but there were plenty of folks telling independents and fence-sitters what a disaster Stupidhead's first term was and what a catastrophe his second term would be. Not to mention a boatload of empirical evidence for anyone with eyes to see.

But at least they can go to the courthouse and get a marriage license without bumping into a bunch of gayo-Americans, as Mr. Boudelang would say.

Idjits. Which party is more likely to at least listen to what you have to say, even if they don't always act as you might want them to? And which party is going to call you an unamerican traitor if you disagree with its destructive policies?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XanaDUer]

21. Ditto

They got what they wanted. Fuck 'em.

[jahyarain]

23. Love that

unity

[XanaDUer]

24. Huh?

...

[jahyarain]

27. i am of the independent variety

that could not fathom voting for a republican. ever. but the "fence sitter" types are not going to join in helping overthrow this regime when they're being pushed away by (sadly) the only alternative. yes, they fucked up. badly. but the democratic party needs them. i want these murdering muthafuckers out of there too (and yes i include the GOP house and senate). but dividing instead of uniting is not going to do it

[XanaDUer]

29. I doubt my post is going to force them over to

the Republican side. Thanks for clearing up your cryptic post.

[jahyarain]

31. not necessarily force them over to the repub side

but to the greens or some other third party. and while i wish there were viable third, fourth, and fifth parties, right now (as was proven in 2000) is not the the time to go there. we have to stand together to defeat the evil that is Dick Cheney. and we need those fence sitters on our side to do it ;-)

[XanaDUer]

34. Yup.

But I still feel the same about it.

[HockeyMom]

48. Independent too

It's been decades since I voted for a Republican; well, on the national level anyway.

I voted for Pataki the first time. Learned from my mistake and didn't the second time around.

I am also old enough to know there hasn't been the likes of this Republican Party (far, far right wing) in MY lifetime.

[TahitiNut]

43. Fuck the brainless partisans

they can eat my shit. too fucking stupid to vote on the issues or even be INFORMED on them.

stupid fucks

[zara]

25. But they can be scared back into the tent...

Irqnian mushroom cloud??We know the drill.

[deadparrot]

30. The independent Bush voters

can shove it up their collective asses. I feel no sympathy.

[Sgent]

33. So...

I would rather have a congress full of Lieberman clones than Santarum clones. Keep telling people that all republican's are evil, or Fuck the independents who voted for Bush, and that's what you'll get.

I am more liberal than my parents, who voted AND DONATED for Bush in 2000. That being said, I would much rather have either one of my parents, or a candidate with similar views, than GWB or 90% of repukes. Essentially they supported a wide range of candidates in '04, some repuke and some democrat, but not GWB or a neocon amongst them. They also would be opposed to Barney Frank or Conyers, although they support gay marrige and some civil rights.

What I'm getting at, is start hating people who might side with us at your own peril.

[jahyarain]

38. exactly

[deadparrot]

41. Okay,

I could have phrased that better: I feel no sympathy for 2004 Bush voters.

His approval ratings were low all during the election season. People knew him for what he was in 2004. But in the end, pettiness won out. Kerry wasn't likable enough, he was mean and ugly, and Bush was going to save us all from terra-ists. Maybe I'm cynical, but in the days leading up to the election, I was downright depressed by what I saw in most of my Bush-voting acquaintances. For instance, one Bush voter in my politics had to call over the teacher and ask what GOP meant.

If Bush 2004 voters feel remorse, and want to come over to our side, by all means, let them come. I hope they vote for Dems en masse in upcoming elections. I'd be a fool not to hope.

However, if a Bush voter comes running to me crying that their kid just got drafted, or that they lost huge amounts of money in the stock market, or that there's no cure for their diabetes because Bush won't allow stem cell funding, or any number of other issues, I cannot muster up any sympathy. Emotionally, mentally and physically, I just don't feel anything. They knew what they were getting. I only hope they can learn from their mistakes and vote in their best interests next time.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

37. It is hard to be sympathetic, isn't it?

I have to remind myself that rubbing it in won't get Dems anywhere, that dems have to try to acknowledge and thus, validate, the dissatisfaction, concur with it, and offer a way out. That will translate into wins in 2006 and beyond, esp. if they end up delivering on those alternatives.

[jahyarain]

39. and

exactly

[deadparrot]

45. When I see these people,

Republicans who voted for Bush in 2004 but now regret it, I just don't feel anything. It's not that I'm repressing any feelings, I really don't feel any sort of sympathy toward them.

I'm all for discussion and education. I hope they vote for Democrats in upcoming elections. I don't treat Bush voters any differently than I did at any other point in time. I'm not the confrontational type, especially when it comes to politics. Many are perfectly nice people, I know. When people show regret, admittedly, I may have an inner sense of "ha ha, I was right and you were wrong," but I don't say it. It's wrong, but it's one of my many flaws.

It's not that I'm rude or condescending to any "buyers' remorse" Bushies out there who I meet in the real world. I don't tell them to shove it up their collective asses, as I did above. I just can't sit back anymore and coddle them. IMHO, I just want them to show some of the personal responsibility the the Republicans in charge always trumpet.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

46. Since I believe most voted out of fear/emotion, I try to make that connect

connection - that is, something along the lines of, "this is what sometimes happens when people (like you) make long-term decisions (how to vote) based upon irrational reasons (like fear or jingoism)."

[deadparrot]

49. See, I don't even go that far.

When I meet a Bush voter, I honest to god don't feel any differently towards them than I do a Kerry voter. Generally, I'm a cheerful, amiable person. If someone happens to confide in me that they wish they hadn't voted for Bush, I smile uncomfortably and shrug. I don't try to make them feel more guilty. They probably don't need that. Now, inside my head, I'm pointing and laughing, don't get me wrong. I'm no purist.

I just don't feel anything for a repentant Bush voter. It's not that I wish harm upon them. I just feel apathy.

[Uncle Joe]

63. Like they say you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

the people that voted for Bush and have repented should be welcomed with open arms, we need them. It does us no good to make them feel like they have come to the wrong place.

[deadparrot]

64. I'm sure that's true,

and as I've stated above, I would never in a million years say anything derogatory or mean-spirited to Bush voters who have seen the light.

However, I can't force myself to feel something for these people. When they worry about the precedent set by Schiavo, etc., I can't feel any sympathy. I just feel nothing.

[kster]

62. Don't go to

hard on them,I still believe Kerry won in a landslide.That means most voted for Kerry, its just that the voting machines weren't counting the votes they were stealing them.

[deadparrot]

65. See my above posts.

I would never say anything mean to such people. I wouldn't make anyone feel bad because of their vote. I'm not that kind of person.

However, I can't force myself to feel bad for 2004 Bush voters. I don't. My body, my mind, whatever it is that controls pity, just doesn't work when it comes to them. I absolutely don't wish them harm, or anything of the sort. There's only apathy. :shrug:

[TruthIsAll]

51. Kerry won a clear majority of Independents...

Buyers remorse? Very few bought * to begin with.

[yorkiemommie1]

52. the idiots let their minds get turned around

by the religious right, the swift boat liars and the lies, lies, lies.

they bought the lies!

they bought the hype!

they bought the rightwing CON JOB!

[KansDem]

53. Perhaps it's not "Buyer's Remorse" but rather "Liars Remorse"

Remorse at helping put so many liars in the White House.

[derby378]

56. "We warned you. Remember the rules. YOU DIDN'T LISTEN."

Is this Gremlins 2 or the Bush administration, fer cryin' out loud?

[Cocoa]

57. this is going to hurt the GOP bad

the republicans bent over backwards to prop up the Worst President Ever, and the people who were fooled are going to be bitter.

Just ask the IL republicans, who were dragged down with George Ryan.

[Rex]

68. HAAHAHAHA! Diebold, diebold, diebold.

Just keep repeating it was a real election... :rofl:

[progressivebydesign]

69. I have always respected the Independents if they are actually such..

I mean, lots of republicans like to call themselves Independents, when they are actually just discontented republicans. I really respect folks who think for themselves...

[HockeyMom]

83. I registered to vote for the first time in 1969

When they asked me what Party I wanted to put down, I told them none. I cannot quote you any statistics, but I am sure back 36 years ago the number of Independents were not what they are today.

[TahitiNut]

102. There were far fewer open primaries in those days.

People who wished to have an impact in the primaries were required to register in the relevant party. While this varied by state, it was far more prevalent then.

[HockeyMom]

104. I live in New York

We don't have Open Primaries. As an Independent, I cannot vote in a Primary.

[TahitiNut]

107. Yup. I lived (and voted) in NYS in '74, '76, '78, '80, and '82.

I lived in Rochester/Monroe County and, due to the politics of the area, registered as a Republican in order to vote in their primary.

[mitchum]

70. Thanks a lot, dumbasses!

[joeunderdog]

73. NONE of this matters.

We had the majority in the last 2 elections, but they had the computer voting programs and the media.

Game over.

[Azathoth]

77. They bought it; let them choke on it

These so-called "independents" voted for a guy who's entire re-election strategy was to stir up as much fear, hatred, and religious extremism as possible. They knew damn well what Bush and the GOP stood for in the last election, and they didn't care, because they didn't think it would affect them. As far as they were concerned, fuck the gays and the non-Christians and the Iraqi civilians and the men and women in uniform dying for a lie. Now they're starting to realize that Bush is victimizing not just various minority groups (gays, ethnic minorities, military families, etc), but the entire American middle class, and all of a sudden they're having "buyer's remorse". Let them choke.

[ernstbass]

103. You took the words out of my mouth

I hope they choke on it!!

[Eloriel]

78. Just for fun - here are some individual "conversion" stories

Heard some astonishing info today from a friend.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1920600

"As of today, after 25 years, I am no longer a Republican."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1890603
also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1907487
Link: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/06/26/ed.col.chaney.0626.html

I'm seeing a lot of changed minds about Iraq and Chimpy McCokespoon.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3939527

Pa. GOP honcho blasts right wing, switches parties
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1825375
Link: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-06022005-497208.html

Republican says his party has been taken over by "a bunch of kooks"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1811231

Are we witnessing the collapse of the Republican Party?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3732175

The Good Republicans (Plaid Adder)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3729680#3733287

Post in this thread:
Voinovich is in tears on Senate floor!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1809081&mesg_id=1809207

A Voter Switches Party Affiliation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1803102&mesg_id=1803102

Something in the air? Lots of converted Repubs....
(links to the following three threads)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3654563

New to DU by reformedrepub (14 posts at the time)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1780575

OMG - my parents LEAVE the Republican Party!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3652906

Hi, my name is Stacy, and I'm a recovering Republican...................
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3651186&mesg_id=3651186&page=

[many a good man]

79. Democrats: "The philosophy of the Stop Sign" -- GWB

Independents: "Oh."

[DanCa]

81. Too little to late

Seems to me you get what you voted for. Don't people think for themselves? Kerry would have been an awesome president.

[Tight_rope]

82. Well...what in the fuck did they expect out of the "CON'S".....

Hell when you put a bunch of corrupted crooks in the White House you can expect to be scammed. Those independents can kiss my crispy ass. They will just have to deal with it like us democrats who "DIDN'T" vote for Bush.

[lakeguy]

85. don't worry, all these percentages will go up right before

the 06 and 08 elections as the rethugs continue to win *somehow*

[mondo joe]

89. They deserve to lose their jobs and have their kids shipped to Iraq.

A little fucking late now to figure it out.

[gtar100]

94. Don't drag the kids into it. They'll learn before their parents will.

nuf said.

[mondo joe]

95. Nothing against the kids, but thhe FACT is this is their parents' gift to

them.

[architect359]

97. Strategy

Bush is a lightening rod. All criticism and scorn zooms in on him. It shouldn't be about him anymore. The best way to fight this is to get the other actors in this crazy drama voted out. I know that this has been said before but it bears repeating (especially now); we have to focus on grass roots at the same time. Hit them at the leadership level, yes, but also continue to chip away at the micro governing level, i.e. local and state level. The bureaucracy is now littered with people that follow this administration's ideology. Tossing Bush out is meaningless at this point unless we can also deny the others the votes and long term trust.

[renaissanceguy]

98. but removing bushie is at the very least

a highly symbolic gesture. it would mark the beginning of the end of the neocon reign.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.26198687

[wellst0nev0ter]

99. What They Said

And no, I'm not going to hold the hands of people too stupid to see past Bush's false terra alerts and the news management by the Swifties. Whether they were single-issue abortion voters, or they think Bush looks like the type of guy they'd wanna have a beer with, they bought their four morons years, now they will live with it. My only regret is that I have to share in their masochism.

[ucmike]

100. yeah, blame independents.

a repub and a dem went fishing. the repub went out and spent a lot of money on the best bait and the best equipment, he also brought in the best fishing minds and some "secret down home techniques". the dem showed up with his same old tired fishing gear and some skinny worms he found under a rock at his doorstep.

the repub caught his limit, including the big fish of the day and went home with the spoils of his catch. the dem stood on the bank of the river blaming the uncaught fish for not taking his bait.


it has nothing to do with lackluster dem canidates and the fact that republican strategy kicks the crap out the watered down, don't upset anyone dem message.


the repubs spent a lot of years honing the "packaging" of their product, as crappy as it is, while dems stood around mumbling "we're better than them" amongst themselves while repub canidates beat their collective brains out.

lots of us independent voters voted dem, i voted staight ticket democrat for the first time in my life in '04 because i was so upset about the direction we were going in this country. i usually vote for the best canidate, thats the nature of independent voters. if the repubs were better at attracting those voters, its because they worked harder and better at it. whatever they offered appealed to certain voters for some reason.

don't blame independent voters because mainstream dems didn't give them anything appealing. it sounds like you're blaming independents for the democrats poor strategy, which is ridiculous. "those voters who aren't linked to our organization caused our problem by not supporting us!"

[PinkPantherChick]

109. FOTFLOL

Oh, poor me! I am just a poor stupid little old Democrat who needs all of the moron repugs to do my outsmarting and out voting for me so that I can have the biggest moron of all in the oval office because he SAYS he is my moral BETTER! He "says" a lot of things but so far everything out of his mouth is spit and lies. The repugs think that out smarting dems is something so damn WORTHY and something to be so PROUD of that they "spend all of their time on it". Well if they are spending all of their time on outsmarting and selling morons who only have spit and lies, then what are they bothering for? He who outsmarts the most wins? Not WORTH IT!!! Remember, please we have a country to run, the largest superpower on the face of the earth, and now the superpower is in the hands of a moron with another moron VP and and a huge moron as Chief of Staff and blah, blah, blah. Would you kids all please play nice with each other and use some realistic common sense!!!!!

As for the Republicans, who ever heard of someone wanting a great piece of elephant? Democrats, if outsmarting is the name of their game then let the brainstorming begin. Independents, don't get on some big pedestal and think you are better or smarter or more on the cutting edge than ANYONE because even Saddam fell off of his stupid pedestal not long ago. Could we please just get back on track? I never thought I would live to see this nation fall on it's face but as a citizen here I am looking up at blue skies from my position on the ground wishing and hoping for a good stock market(goodbye you ignorant SOB Alan Greenspan), leadership to bring it all back together (GWB you are the stupidest piece of work that has ever been given birth and your father got a pretty bad seed himself). Cheney, wherever your "undisclosed location" is this week, may the exterminators find you. Rove, go rattle your chains. You will find them around your wrists soon and you will make a great wife for somebody. Let the blood letting and the saber rattling STOP!!!

[against all enemies]

101. With so much "remorse" why do the pukes control of Congress?

I so sick of this crap, it's pretty obvious that a lot of people are content with this screw job. If they truely have remorse they can vote in a Democratic House or Senate, until that time they are happy to be governed by assholes. Fuck them all.

[Mari333]

105. I agree, if they are whining now, tough shit

They asked for it. Let them suffer the consequences. Sadly, the rest of the world has to suffer the consequences of the gang of thugs they voted for.

[Zhade]

108. Not all independents are idiots who lean right.

I'm an indy because the DEMS lean too right, why the HELL would I vote REPUBLICAN?

This article is not quite accurate, to say the least.