[Mississippi] Adoption Firm: No Catholics

[Maddy McCall]

A local Christian adoption agency that receives funds from the sale of Mississippi's Choose Life specialty car tags will not consider Catholics as adoptive parents.

"It has been our understanding that Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith," wrote Bethany Christian Services director Karen Stewart in a July 8 letter to Sandy and Robert Stedman, a Catholic couple in Jackson seeking to adopt. "Our practice to not accept applications from Catholics was an effort to be good stewards of an adoptive applicant's time, money and emotional energy."

A private adoption agency, Bethany Christian Services has locations in 75 U.S. cities, including Jackson, Hattiesburg and Columbus.
The agency is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in the state that receives money from the sale of Choose Life car tags, which advocate against abortion. Motorists pay an additional fee for the specialized license plate.

Of $244,000 generated by the sale of the tags in 2004, Bethany received $7,053, said Geraldine Gray, treasurer of Choose Life Mississippi, the umbrella group that distributes the money the tags raise to nonprofit groups.

The rest of this article, infuriating as it is, can be read here: http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050715/NEWS01/507150380/1002

[BamaLefty]

1. What????

This is sad, very say. I know few Catholics but the ones I do know are very, very nice and genuine people.

Pathetic.

[JPZenger]

42. Federal Law Prohibits Discrimination in Adoptions

During the Clinton Administration, a Federal law was passed that prohibits discrimination in adoption decisions by agencies. It was passed because some agencies were refusing to let African American children be adopted by White couples. I'm curious whether that law also addresses religion.

[OKthatsIT]

69. What Federal Law? It seems the Feds make them up as they go

We have no law abiding politicians in DC, why would we expect the same Repug citizens in the bible belt to respect pre-Bush laws?

[Ian David]

130. They certainly do allow discrimination against gay people

Thank you, Florida, for setting the precedent that allows an adoption firm to ban adoption by Catholics.

Good for the goose, and all that.

[Fenris]

2. "Catholicism does not agree with our Statement of Faith"

What the Hell?

[goddess40]

7. I'd like the details on that one

What could be so terrible?

[Ilsa]

15. Here you go:

I believe that in all matters of faith and life, the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the final authority. The Scriptures point us with full reliability to Jesus, God’s Son. The Scriptures tell us that we receive forgiveness of sins by faith in Jesus Christ, and that God provides salvation by grace alone for those who repent and believe.

This is from their statement of faith. I suspect they believe that the Pope's authority is a contradiction of this.

[Fenris]

17. Ah, so they disagree with the Catholic belief in "faith and good works"

as the key to salvation.

Way to pick nits.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

21. So I'm thinking that Jews can pretty much forget about adopting...

[Ilsa]

22. Yes, and I think they disagree on what is the "Final authority".

But I'm just guessing at this, looking at it from my early years' Sunday School training. One of the biggies for Protestants is the Pope's authority and ability to issue those papers interpreting scripture. I think alot of protestants limit it to Faith only, and good works are nice, but not a requirement, especially if someone has a last minute conversion prior to death.

[krkaufman]

27. "works" means nothing

You can be a total rat-bastard, but they believe you'll get to heaven so long as you take Jesus as your personal savior.

[txindy]

79. That's true.

I've had discussions like that here in Texas with people who are convinced Mother Theresa is in h*ll because "she never accepted Jesus as her Savior."

She was a NUN. Of COURSE she accepted Jesus as her Savior! What kind of idiots are these 'people'?!?!?!

[Neshanic]

86. Exhibit "A" Swaggert still on telescreen. He's saved you know...

multiple times. No good works involved here, unless you count the money given to the prostitutes he hired.

[saigon68]

98. He hired some SKANKS for $10.00 a TRICK

[othermeans]

104. Isn't that trickle down economics?

[saigon68]

183. Guess so

[HockeyMom]

97. Freepers had a discussion

on whether Pope John Paul was "saved" because he was not born again.

Unbelievable.

[TankLV]

163. She not only "accepted" Jesus, she MARRIED him!

That's what nun's do!

[txindy]

167. Very true. The nuns I remember even wore a ring to signify that. eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. So Ted Bundy could be in heaven?

If he had accepted Christ as his savior, then according to this belief, he would be in heaven now.

Do these idiots stop and think about this crap before they say it?
Don't answer that. I think I know.

[leesa]

181. Think George W Bush...a total criminal asshole, but he said he's a

christian and that's good enough for these idiots. NASTY PEOPLE.

[kestrel91316]

38. Fundies apparently believe that ........................

reliance upon any "good works" whatsoever is a ticket straight to hell. I kid you not.

Which goes a long way toward explaining why they are so well known for helping the poor and downtrodden.

[ticapnews]

108. Right; why do good works when you can get to Heaven on faith alone?

All the benefits, none of the effort.

I must admit I find the prospect of a prolonged court/political/public relations fight between Christians and Catholics incredibly delicious. Those poor persecuted Christians who have been in charge of America since before it was the United States thereof, against a Catholic Church that wouldn't admit the earth revolved around the sun until 1992. Two of the most hateful organizations around, going at each other's throats.

Going to make me some popcorn.

(Yeah, I know, I'll get flamed for this, but I don't care. I'm sick and f*cking tired of having everyone else's religion shoved down my throat. Maybe if these two groups get worn out fighting each other they can leave me the hell alone.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

124. Sorry. When they get worn out fighting each other

they'll start burning Jews and atheists again.

Just like every time before.

[stickdog]

194. We can't have parents who believe in good works muddying the

koolaid, now can we?

[catabryna]

25. I agree with your assessment...

It is the Catholic teachings on works that is the problem as well as the aspect that forgiveness is granted by Christ and Christ alone. As a result of the evangelical position on forgiveness, there is a strong objection to the Catholic concept of confessing your sins to a priest rather than directly petitioning Christ.

[TankLV]

164. Last time I went to mass a year or so ago, Catholics don't even have to

confess to a priest necessarily anymore - it's preferred - but there are opportunities to confess in private during special masses, etc.

Did that then - god knows I'm in need of confessing since (when WAS my last confession?!?!?!?!)

[alarimer]

175. This is unreal

While I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church, I do believe that at least some of their organizations do good things. They help the poor, they teach, they help LEPERS for pity's sake. Now having to convert in order to get help is not a good thing but I still don't understand why other forms of Christianity have a problem with good works. It is mind-boggling.

[catabryna]

185. Well, as an adoptive parent...

I can certainly say that I would have ran as far as possible from Bethany.

I'm a practicing protestant, however, I was raised in the Catholic church and I find this to be abhorent. Catholics, and individuals, do much more for the downtrodden than any protestant church I've been in, with the exception of the church I'm now attending.

I don't consider missionaries to be helping the downtrodden because they aren't doing it to "just" help someone... they are doing it to convert those that they are helping. I understand the Great Commission and, generally, I have no problem with missionaries, but I do have a problem with those whose assistance is is conditional on conversion.

[4_Legs_Good]

83. Catholics believe in Scripture *and* tradition

tradition being the tradition of the Catholic church through the ages. It's not limited to the pope's authority, but also the "living" Church through the ages. Kinda like the Constitution being interpreted by the Supreme Court.

david

[Terran]

100. Jesus, how 16th century of them.

:eyes:

It's really hard for me to understand how people can still make such distinctions.

[FlaGranny]

114. As a recovered Catholic

I was about to ask - is that a Catholic statement or the adoption agency's statement? Interesting, as a Catholic I didn't know the difference. I learned Catholicism as an adult, and that statement contradicts nothing that I was taught. I guess they're still fomenting the lies that the "priest" forgives and Catholics worship statues. Hmmmmm.

[Mari333]

8. Right wing evangelicals detest Catholics

somthing I have been telling my mother, who voted for Bush in 2000..My mom is Catholic, and she was horrified when I explained to her that right wing born agains think the Pope is the antichrist, think Catholics worship idols, dont like Mary one bit, and think Catholics are pagans and are evil..My mom is 80 and a staunch Catholic..she didnt vote for Bush again..

[slamthecrank]

63. Hang on...

There is an undercurrent of "fundies" in the Catholic church. My father is one of them - he is a converted Southern Baptist, and revels in the 'power' of Catholicism. He is a teacher in the RCIA program at his church, which is basically a bastion of neo-conservatism. You can't really paint with a broad brush in the world of Catholicism. I, for example, am extremely progressive - and Catholic - and at the same time, am horrified by the actions of our current Pope, college of bishops, etc. Catholicism is an intricate sect of Christianity, with many facets, and many different approaches. Many young people (like me) look at Catholicism as an approach to Christianity...and ever more are intrigued by the Gnostics, which seem to have a better grasp on the religion and faith - without keeping a pulse on 'power'.

[Mari333]

64. I realize quite a few Catholics have embraced the fundy ideology

But they would be surprised to find out there are protestant evangelicals out there who consider anyone who is Catholic, no matter how much they embrace the same ideologies as protestant fundies, are still considered pagans because they worship Mary, and pray to her..my mom is a very conservative Catholic, but she is considered a pagan heathen by ultra evangelicals..

[slamthecrank]

125. i see

what you were saying now. Yeah, I agree...I just don't think about it that much: that the conservative Protestants will always think of Catholics as pagan heathens.

Regarding "fundamental" Catholics (from the post below yours) - unfortunately, there are some. My father, included. The priest at my parents' church is very "fundamental" in his interpretation of the Bible. It's the most bizarro-world thing I've ever been through (mass at their church). I visited once during the election term, and the Priest was telling the congregration that "there is only one Candidate that a true Catholic can embrace, and that is George W. Bush." I reported it to the Diocese of Charleston, to no avail. They don't care. They have the same political agenda, so it's "all good".

[Bluerthanblue]

153. you nailed it- and if these same 'fundies'

did some real 'digging' on W they'd be surprised to hear that he clearly shies away from saying that he is 'born again'- something that is essential to the fundie mentality (having 'been' one) and that his saying that the Muslims worship the same God, has got them REALLY pissed off- (which is actually, fundementally true, as Isslam is an off-shoot of the story of Abraham- it is the continuation of the story of Abrahams son with Hagar -Ishmael)
Also, there are ALOT of 'schisms' in the Fundie club- those who accept 'tongues', allow females positions of 'authority' etc.

It's really pretty amazing, and pretty sad- and ugly.

i don't believe that Bethany house can be 'forced' to accept any 'prospective' adoptive parents- they can pretty much set any 'rules' they want- which i don't believe is correct (morally) but is allowed-
Unless they are a governmental entity- and even THEN, there are alot of predjuces-

Our local 'Catholic Charity" will not accept applications from 'non-Catholics'-

And meanwhile, foster kids cry for families....

[TankLV]

165. "Venerate" that's "venerate Mary - same as one would his parents.

Not "worship".

Christo-fascist fundies don't know jack shit about Catholics or the Church.

Then again, that never stops them on a whole host of topics, does it?

[imenja]

66. cultural conservatism rather than fundamentalism

is more accurate I think. I'm not aware of any Catholic literal interpretation of the Bible, which is after all what fundamentalism means. There are of course a significant number of conservative Catholics who share the cultural agenda of fundamentalists.

[iverglas]

80. yes!

Cultural and political, I would add.

On that point, have I offered my favourite Canadian analysis of the issue lately? ;)

http://www.billblaikie.ca/ndp.php/speechoutside/Religious_Talk_in_Pu

Bill Blaikie is a Member of Parliament for the New Democratic Party (my party, social democrats). He is also an ordained minister of the United Church of Canada (a weensy bit to the left, theologically *and* socially/politically, of the United Church of Christ in the US).

Unfortunately, his original written piece on this topic has disappeared from the net. This is a version given as a speech.

Stockwell Day was the fundamentalist Christian / neo-conservative politician who was the leader of Canada's right-wing party at the time. Woodsworth and Douglas were leaders in the formation of Canada's social democrat movement; Douglas founded Canada's universal health care system, grandfathered Kiefer Sutherland, and was a Baptist preacher.

Snippets:

In the meantime, suffice to say that the relationship between religion and politics has been more in the news or on the public agenda in the last year or so as a result of Stockwell Day’s arrival on the federal political scene. ... Mystifying, somewhat, because I began to wonder what was either right or wrong with my own faith based politics, that it caused so little offense all those years, or drew so little attention. ... So just what is going on here? Neither, historically speaking, was there a comparable reaction to the prospect of J.S. Woodsworth or Tommy Douglas infusing their politics with their religious beliefs when they led the CCF and the NDP respectively.

The irony is that a close examination of what Day has had to say in the past about his political beliefs reveals a certain conservative politics that is less informed by a conservative Christianity than it is coincident with a conservative Christian faith. ... In fact, it could be argued, that what we see in Mr. Day is a small range of positions on issues that are explicitly faith informed, issues like abortion for example, and a much larger range of issues that are shaped by his embrace of a particular strand within the tradition of political conservatism, a strand that seems more American than Canadian in terms of his commitment to a limited state for example, and which certainly isn’t necessarily shared by all so-called conservative Christians or by all Canadian conservatives.

As a Christian on the left I would want to argue, for instance, that there is a vast realm called ‘the economy’, and all the values and practices that it explicitly and implicitly reinforces, that should be judged, in the Christian mind, by whether or not it conforms to the teachings of Jesus Christ, whether any false gods, like the market, are worshipped therein, whether the poor and the oppressed are given priority, and whether, environmentally speaking, creation is being looked after.

That this realm seems to be left outside the purview of certain faith-based political choices and faith-based rhetoric is not unique. It is characteristic of the religious right in general, and most certainly in Canada. The exception is the Buchananesque right-wing American critique of NAFTA and the WTO, which has more to do with seeing any threat to American sovereignty as a threat to God’s chosen instrument, rather than being a critique of the marketplace.

The religious right has privatized or removed from the public realm the possibility of religion being a true source of spiritual and intellectual inspiration when it comes to thinking about the economy. The secular right worships the market, and the religious right has a totally non-prophetic stance towards this idolatry. ...

[imenja]

135. good analysis

I would also add that politics has increasingly come to be defined in cultural terms. The Right discusses class as a cultural rather than economic phenomenon. I am now part of the "elite" because I read books and teach at an university, despite the fact I earn a very modest income and drive a 92 Ford Escort. Republican millionaires are, unlike myself,
regular guys. The argument is absurd but swallowed whole by much of middle America. They've even succeeded in reducing political debate among the left to the narrow cultural issues that makes up the radical right wing agenda. The GOP uses religion as part of it's propaganda machine, central to their politics of distraction that keeps us from discussing the most serious political and economic issues confronting the US and the rest of the world.

[CBHagman]

139. Well said, imenja.

What you are describing has been put about for years, in the recent past put forth by people such as Newt Gingrich and more recently by David Brooks. It shocks me that they've gotten away with it, given the total lack of logic of their arguments, but George Lakoff has dealt with that much more fully than I ever could.

[July_July]

136. I totally know where you're coming from

I'm a "leftist" Catholic, if that term makes any sense nowadays - and my father is a member of the real, honest to god, Opus Dei.

It's a strange situation to say the least.

[area51]

169. Welcome.

Welcome to DU, July_July.

[hamsterjill]

142. Absolutely correct!!!

"Evangelicals" is a nice catch phrase for lumping many different denominations into one category which gives the perception that there is total agreement amongst the groups. When in fact, once you get down to the nitty gritty, there is going to be a LOT of disagreement between the groups about a LOT of things. It will not only be differences in Catholics versus Protestants.

For instance, in the small Texas town where I grew up, it was considered all right for Methodists to attend a dance, but Baptists weren't supposed to.

It's all in the details...

[area51]

171. Welcome.

Welcome to DU, hamsterjill. :hi:

[MountainLaurel]

51. The more fundie Christian sects

Don't think of Catholics as Christians, because the Church doesn't believe that accepting Christ as your savior is the sole way of reaching heaven. You've also got to do confession, be baptized, take communion, have the last rites, etc. They also consider the veneration of saints and especially of Mary to be idol worship that takes away from Christ's glory. Also, there's the issue of the priest and pope as a gateway to god -- fundies are more of a "there's no one between you and the Lord" sort of group.

[bobbieinok]

122. SoBapts used to be 'God, the Bible, and me; I need no pope' BUT NOW

the RW has taken over the SoBapt denomination......there is a statement of faith that at least professors at seminaries and maybe ministers and professors at SoBapt colleges have to sign......

this 'statement' contradicts everything I was taught as a SOBapt in the 40s and 50s: SoBapts prided ourselves as having 'no creed but the Bible'....this meant we never said/learned the Nicene Creed commonly said in many churches every Sunday

also it seems now that SoBapts are supposed to believe whatever their minister tells them.....the minister is now to the congregation as supposedly the pope is to the Catholic church.......we SoBapts at a college in TX viewed in the late 50s-early 60s said Chriswell, minister of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, wanted to be: 'the pope of the SoBapt denomination'

BTW, in college and grad school I often had conversations with like-minded Christians fearing the consequences when conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants discovered they had more in common politically with each other than either had with the more liberal members of their churches

[Bill McBlueState]

3. oh, this should be good

:popcorn:

Would Bethany "Christian" Services prefer more abortions? That would keep those wicked, wicked Catholics from having to consider adoption. :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

6. Yes, it will be one to watch...

because Mississippi has many Catholics.

This fight will play out in LTTEs and editorials in papers across Mississippi.

Give the conservatives enough rope (power)....

[wakeme2008]

4. They are all over the country

Headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Bethany is a not-for-profit, pro-life, Christian adoption and family services agency. Bethany’s support comes through reimbursement for services, and from gifts received from individuals, churches, corporations, and foundations that share Bethany’s commitment to improving the lives of children and families. With over 75 locations nationwide and international ministries in 15 other countries, Bethany touches the lives of more than 30,000 people each year


here is a link to their statement of faith

http://www.bethany.org/A55798/bethanyWWW.nsf/0/FAF8F0A9A73CA87D85256E3C006815D9?OpenDocument

[Maddy McCall]

10. Will be interesting to see if Catholics all over the country ...

will stand up against Bethany for their Mississippi brethren. Like I said above, this one will be very interesting to watch...

Something tells me that the Mississippi Bethany centers are about to get a slapdown from the national director...a very public slapdown.

[Demeter]

26. Grand Rapids, You Say? It Figures

DeVos country...Amway country. The woods are full of rednecks in Michigan. No wonder they hate highly Catholic Detroit.

[bleedingheart]

30. my sister-in-law from Grand Rapids hates Catholics

she detests me...and so while I am a lapsed Catholic...I bring out all the finery (crucifixes, Marian medals..etc) to wear when I visit...and then I make sure to cross myself constantly..

[Mairead]

58. "I bring out all the finery"

Oh, that's mean! heh heh I love it.

[noonwitch]

121. So does my mom, but she is a GR liberal

She hates catholics because my grandpa hates catholics. His hate is based on the medivial nuns who tied his left hand behind his back until he learned to use his right hand. Left handers are satan's children.

My mom also hates the dutch reformed, so she hates a lot of people.

[ismnotwasm]

187. LOL

That's funny...

[krkaufman]

29. Wonder if they get any federal funds...

... as part of the faith-based programs initiative.

[denverbill]

5. I'm sorry, but I think this is friggin hilareous.

I hope every Republican Catholic in the US reads about this.

I wonder how they feel about Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists?

[Mari333]

11. Jews muslims buddhists and atheists?

HELLBOUND! : )

[northzax]

14. they don't

Christians only. none of this papist shit.

now,to be perfectly fair. From their perspective, they tell pregnant women that their children will be adopted by Christian families. So it makes sense that they restrict potential parents. It's stupid, but that's their thing.

all these plates are a stupid idea. why does a state need 50 different license plates? We only need one here in DC...

[Caria]

57. But much of the time

They don't even know who the birthmother IS. Bethany facilitates a lot of international adoptions of from places like China. Children are not legally adoptable in China if their birthparents are living and known.

Also, the agency website indicates that they facilitate adoptions from the Philippines. This confuses me - when we were first looking into adoption, we were told that both parents MUST be Catholic in order to adopt from the Philippines.

I also noticed that they facilitate adoptions from India - through Holy Cross Social Service Center!

[RaleighNCDUer]

129. So besides not adopting TO catholics, they are taking all those

heathen children and placing them in 'good christian homes'.

Bringing them to their world, one at a time.

[Bassic]

107. Newsflash to them, but Catholics are Christians.

[SharonAnn]

145. I sent this to my very Catholic uncle who's supportive of the Right-wing

"Christians". He's big on "values" in politics and "God" in government.

Interestingly, he's from Grand Haven (near Grand Rapids) and is now married to his high school sweetheart (married in their 70's) whom he had to quit seeing back then because he was Catholic and she was Dutch Reformed.

Funny,

I also sent him a newspaper article from Knoxville where a Baptist high school had expelled a Catholic student for not praying "as a Christian"

[Bill McBlueState]

9. the two women

Thanks to the two women quoted in the article for sharing their stories. It's probably not easy to open up about this aspect of one's personal life. Hopefully their willingness to talk will result in this scam of an adoption agency getting the shame it deserves.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Now ain't that somethin.

"The agency is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in the state that receives money from the sale of Choose Life car tags, which advocate against abortion. Motorists pay an additional fee for the specialized license plate."

So Catholics, who likely purchase the 'Choose Life' tags in greater proportion than the general population are, by purchasing those tags, funding an organization that discriminates against them.

[Maddy McCall]

43. Exactly.

[gratuitous]

13. But they'll accept tax money from Catholics

Jesus, as I recall, had some choice words for such behavior. Somebody wrote it down in Matthew chapter 23.

[northzax]

18. not tax money

license plate revenue. you don't need to pay more for one of these commemorative plates, and if you do, you might want to learn about where the money is going first.

[Maddy McCall]

20. Yes, you pay $30 more for the license plate

and $24 of that goes to the Choose Life committee that distributes the funds to various "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" around the state.

The tag is now facing a legal challenge, though.

[gratuitous]

34. You're probably right

I can't imagine any Catholics I know spending an extra $30 to buy a "Choose Life" license for their car. Unseemly mixing of rendering to Caesar as well as an unbiblical public show of religion just for personal satisfaction and all that.

[Maddy McCall]

35. They do.

Drive through any Catholic church's parking lot here, and I'd wager that at least 30% of the cars have the "Choose Life" tags.

[Maddy McCall]

16. HERE IS THEIR WEBSITE AND PHONE NUMBER

http://www.bethany.org/

They have a forum there.

But why not make them spend a few dollars today by giving them some phonecalls on their 800 line at:

1-800-BETHANY

[holboz]

19. I thought this sort of thinking ended in the 1500s

Once again, this is the hypocrisy of the far right. Their against abortion but don't really do their part to take care of the child once its outside the womb.

When I read this story it reminded me of a line from the English comedy series "Blackadder II" starring Rowan Atkinson and set in the court of Queen Elizabeth I; his extremely pios Protestant Aunt Whiteadder visits and reminds him, "Cold is God's way to remind us to burn more Catholics!"

[lostnfound]

88. I received anti-Catholic propaganda 1 year ago in my neighborhood.

Seems to be quite an industry. A little book hand-delivered to each door in my upper middle class neighborhood.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

151. Actually, it ended about 40 years ago

Each division of Christianity had its own adoption agencies. Lutheran Social Services would deal only with Lutheran adoptive parents. Catholic Charities would deal only with Catholic adoptive parents.

[Beaver Tail]

23. This is the reason why

State and not Religious organizations need to be in charge of adoption. This is discrimination, plane and simple.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Geek Tragedy posted this in another thread. Its appropriate here

Chris Rock said it best:

""When the war started, I heard some people saying, 'I'm an American. I'm an American. Fuck all them foreigners.' And that was cool. Then they said, 'I'm an American. I'm an American. Fuck the French.' And that was cool. Then they said, "I'm am American. I'm an American. Fuck all them Arabs.' And that was cool. Then they said, 'I'm an American. I'm an American. Fuck all them illegal aliens.' Then I started listening, because niggers and Jews were next."

[jukes]

28. ABSOLUTE violation

of the 1st amendment. ACLU & SPLC need to get all over this 1!.

[northzax]

36. how?

I don't really see how this violates free speech or freedom of assembly. of? you mean the establishment clause? no state money is being used, the state simply collects contributions and distributes them. Personally, I think that it the organisation is distasteful enough that it shoudn't recieve money from the program, but it's not a state endorsement.

[Maddy McCall]

37. The Fourth District Court of Appeals disagrees with you.

These tags have already been found unconstitutional, and thus discontinued in several southern states. While upheld in Louisiana, South Carolina's were declared unconstitutional by the Fourth. Mississippi is the last to face a challenge, because one has to have balls in Mississippi to stand up against the religious status quo.

"A three-judge panel unanimously ruled Monday that the plates, which bear the slogan "Choose Life" violate the First Amendment by giving anti-abortion advocates a forum to express their beliefs without giving abortion rights supporters a similar forum. "By limiting access to a specialty license plate to those who agree with its pro-life position, the State has distorted the forum in favor of its own viewpoint," the court wrote. "...South Carolina has engaged in viewpoint discrimination by allowing only the Choose Life plate."

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/005761.html

[northzax]

41. but not for the reasons you think

the Fifth District, in Henderson v. Stalder ruled that is was discriminatory not because it was a religious statement, or because of who the money was going to, but because the opposite viewpoint, presumably "pro-choice" or some such, was denied by Louisiana. The fact that the state makes such a plate avaliable means they must make all plates avaliable, if you meet the minimum standards. Louisiana did not do that, hence the plates were unconsitutional because they were one-sided, not the other way round. many states are actually getting rid of these plates, it becomes too easy for a small group to manipulate the system.

[Maddy McCall]

44. Oh yes, for exactly the reason I think.

And I'm glad, for precisely the reason that the pro-choice side is not given an equal forum, that Mississippi's tag is being challenged in court.

[northzax]

45. but that doesn't make the plate

or the transfer of funds to this group, unconstitutional, just the lack of equal access. I wonder if someone has submitted a NARAL plate to counter it? or planned parenthood? unless that's actually been done, and denied, there is no real issue here.

[Maddy McCall]

48. Yes, Pro-Choice groups HAVE applied for tags....

An Attack on the First Amendment
"Choose Life" license plates infringe upon First Amendment rights in three ways:

Violation #1: Discrimination Against Pro-Choice Organizations: Organizations that counsel women about all their options during pregnancy, including abortion, are discriminated against because they are prevented from receiving "Choose Life" license plate funds solely because of their views on abortion.


Violation #2: Muzzling Pro-Choice Citizens’ Freedom of Speech: Efforts to create "Pro-Choice" license plates have been rejected by many state governments. As a result, pro-choice motorists are denied the opportunity to express their views on a government-issued, specialty license plate, while anti-choice groups are granted the right to spread propaganda that not only supports their political opinions, it’s explicitly sanctioned by the government.


Violation #3: Crossing the Line Between Church and State Some of the states that have adopted "Choose Life" license plate schemes enable religious organizations, such as Catholic Charities, to decide which non-profit organizations should receive funds generated by the sale of the plates. This is a clear violation of the constitutional directive separating church from state, which mandates that government entities avoid entanglement in religious matters.




http://www.crlp.org/pub_fac_licplates.html

[northzax]

50. I agree with the first two

but not the third. I don't think this violates the chinese wall between church and state, it is not affecting the 'establishment' of a religion. Others may, of course, disagree with me. that's sometimes acceptable.

[Ian David]

157. Is that why they got rid of, "You Have a Friend in Pennsylvania?"

Because they wouldn't make plates that say, "I Don't Want a Friend In Pennsylvania," or maybe, "Everyone in Pennsylvania Hates You."

[RaleighNCDUer]

132. The state is acting as the agent that re-distributes the money,

and is re-distributing to an organization that is openly discriminatory against certain religious faiths.

That puts them in violation of the establishment clause.

Put it this way - some guy is going around collecting money and giving it to an group that funds terrorists. He's not putting any of his own money into it, so he is not directly funding terrorists. Does that make him not culpable for supporting terrorists?

So say no would be just silly.

Same thing.

[Julius Civitatus]

31. Once upon a time Catholics were not considered real Americans

During the various waves of Irish and Italian immigrants to the US in the 19th century, many locals embraced "nativism" (the Limbaugh mentality of the time) and adopted extremely nasty anti-Catholic positions that today would be considered hate crimes. That was normal in America 150 years ago. The anti-Catholic bias is still very common in areas of the South, particularly along the "Bible Belt," which is a Baptist and Evangelical stronghold.

Also, during the gold-rush years of the 19th century, gangs of drunken whites in Arizona would kidnap white children that were adopted by Mexican and Catholic families because, in their minds, it was immoral to allow white orphans to the raised by "non-whites" and as "devil-worshiping Catholics."

That's another "proud" moment of our illustrious history.

:sarcasm:

:shrug:

[MountainLaurel]

53. In my hometown in WV

Homes that were built in the late 1950s in certain neighborhoods have covenants attached to the contract that state the home cannot be sold to an Italian. Fifty and sixty years after they were brought over to work in the coal mines, they still weren't allowed to buy homes in some areas.

:wow:

[meow2u3]

134. Catholics aren't just Christians--they're the ORIGINAL Christians!!

STP to anti-Catholic right-wing fundies: We worship Jesus by being members of the church estabilshed by Christ Himself: the original Christian Church which, for 2000 years, has not changed fundamentally. You, on the other hand, worship Jesus in a church some man or woman changed to suit his or her whims.

You tell me that I'm definitely going to hell because I worship Mary, venerate statues, and pray to saints. I tell you God didn't die and leave you in charge, so get off your presumptuous high horse because you risk the pains of Hell because you stubbornly insist in offending the Jesus you claim to worship by sitting in judgment of your fellow human being, especially your brothers and sisters in Christ. You also seem to think that because you have "accepted Jesus as your personal savior", you can take your salvation for granted and commit any atrocity you can and still get to heaven because you're a person of faith. What the heck good is faith when your deeds show a total absence of faith, hope (evidenced by your presumption), and even charity, shown by your racism, religious bigotry, and hatred.

No, I don't think the Pope is the Antichrist; I think you need to educate yourself as to why Catholics venerate saints. We honor saints, especially Mary, who is Jesus' mother! We're not so misogynist (it may seem that way, but it's false) to ignore the mother while paying homage to the son and not to pay the utmost respect and veneration to the woman who gave birth to our Redeemer.
:rant:

NO offense is intended for the fine evangelical and/or Baptist DUers on these boards, only to offend the fake Christians who took it upon themselves to condemn me and my fellow Original Christians to Hell.

[UrbScotty]

186. Right on!

Thank you for posting this.

[IndianaGreen]

189. Catholics are not the original Christians!

The original Christians did not call themselves by that name, like the pagan converts of Paul and Apollos did. They original Christians were based in Jerusalem and were led by James, Jesus's own brother. It is assumed that the Jerusalem group of Jesus's Jewish followers perished when the Romans took Jerusalem from the Zealots in 70 CE.

[JVS]

195. Yup

[Rich Hunt]

101. yes.

And don't forget prohibition, which was really an attack on Catholics. My own hometown was a Catholic "ghetto" during this time, since it was surrounded by "dry towns".

[patcox2]

32. Kerry lost because he is catholic.

This is a very underlooked and avoided fact about the south. There is an extremely quiet, genteel anti-catholicism down their in the bible belt. I would bet its enough to make 3 to 5% of the voters change their vote.

Back when the South was solidly democratic, for a hundred years the south went 100% for every democratic presidential nominee.

Except one. Alf Landon, the one catholic that was nominated during that period.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Well, that means he isn't a Christian, doesn't it?

I love to correct "Christians" when they refer to Roman Catholics as if they were of a different religion. No, dears, they're Christians of a different faith.

There are some "Christians" who would no sooner vote for a Catholic than a Jew. Kerry lost because he was too patrician, too Yankee, too Catholic, and too erudite. Oh yes, I forgot. He was also a sissy officer in Vietnam.

:rant:

I think I had too much coffee.

[patcox2]

49. Brother Jed Smock had a lot to say about catholics

and how they were all going to hell. Turn, don't burn.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

59. Alf Landon was the Republican candidate that ran against FDR

in 1936 and was buried in a landslide. I don't know if Alf was Catholic or not, but he was from Kansas.

I think you meant to refer to Al Smith from NY, the Dems candidate in 1928. He was the first Catholic candidate for President and his running mate in 1928 was FDR.

As a Catholic, I find this agency's attitude completely disgusting but somehow not surprising. If more Cathlics began to realize how anti-Catholic the right wing fundies are, they wouldn't be "in bed" with so many of these religious bigots about abortion.

[patcox2]

61. You are right, Al Smith.

Its a striking thing, the only dem who failed to win the south in all those years being the only catholic.

[othermeans]

161. You're absolutely right. Now instead of letting this plum fall by the

wayside we need to post this to those conservative Catholic websites that are trying to be so cozy with the radical religious right.

[NawlinsNed]

73. Wow, more anti-South rhetoric, will wonders ever cease?

Care to count how many Catholics there are between Biloxi, MS and Lake Charles, LA and who they voted for?

Hint: biggest Catholic population outside of Mass. Didn't vote for Kerry.

Quit being stupid. Kerry treated the South like flyover country and got exactly what he expected. Clinton is proof that you can win Southern states, but it takes more than lip service and a sheepish grin. Treat Southerners like second-class citizens and see if they don't return the favor at election time. A Democrat won a long held Republican seat in my district in Congress. Kerry didn't win the district. Think about it.

[txindy]

81. Clinton was from the south.

That makes a difference to some people.

[NawlinsNed]

109. Gore was from the South too

How'd he fare down here?

[txindy]

120. Gore was from the South, but didn't talk like it

That means a lot. If you don't believe that, you've never lived in Texas. Why do you think Dumbya pulls out that fake cowboy drawl of his for his base, yet is able to speak perfect ConnecticutBoardingSchool-accented English in front of the United Nations?

It's all about perception. The South never embraced Gore as one of their own. Clinton, OTOH, was a good ol' boy. "Bubba" was more than a nickname.

Yes, it all matters.

[Maddy McCall]

87. Maybe I missed it...and I'm one of the most defensive southerners at DU

but it seems like everyone is most pissed that this nationwide organization denies children homes with people just because they are Catholic.

Southern Baptist bashing? Yes.

Southern bashing? No...unless you can point out a post I missed.

[NawlinsNed]

115. Check out the "Kerry lost because he was Catholic" thread

Singling out "genteel" southerners who might not vote for Kerry because he's Catholic and coming up with a magical, mystical number that might have actually swung him a state or two, while ignoring the entire rest of the country and their very real prejudices.

The thread had nothing to do with this to start off with. I'm just tired of getting thrown under the bus.

Shit, I'm a Cajun with a Catholic family. I share virtually nothing in common with the traditional concept of a Southerner. Our culture is just different. But watch The Waterboy, and see if you can't see where that movie might have been offensive, stereotypical, or prejudiced. Bunch of unintelligble Cajun idiots living in a few shacks with a barefoot bastard in overalls yelling out random gibberish with the star of the show being a moron. But it's fun and it's okay, because they're depicting their concept of Cajuns, and we're fair game because we haven't counted since before our ancestors fled Nova Scotia anyway.

And I'm supposed to sit here and listen to bullshit about why a candidate lost, a candidate who lives in a state that hasn't elected a protestant Senator in decades? Screw that. It's just like another thread on another forum asking if people with a PA license plate will be safe if they drive through the South. Gee, I wonder if there's any prejudice there.

Either face reality or leave it alone is all I'm saying. There isn't much constructive or positive that can possibly come out of this article or thread to begin with.

[patcox2]

90. I did note that the prejudice afflicts 3 to 5% of the population.

It is not "anti-south" to point out real regional variations in beliefs and mores. To say that anti-catholicism is more prevalent in the south than in the north is just fact. That portions of Louisiana have a high percentage of catholics does not negate that.

What would you guess is the geographical distribution of Bob Jones followers?

[NawlinsNed]

110. No, I don't believe it is fact

And I don't think you have the statistics to back it up either. You're just as much a bigot as you claim Southerners of being.

[patcox2]

112. I didn't say southerners are bigots.

But I do think that a greater proportion of southerners than northerners believe in a variety of protestantism which teaches that catholicism is not true christianity, that catholics are therefore apostate or heretic or whatever the term. Again, where are Bob Jones' followers? In Manhattan?

[ovidsen]

78. JFK almost lost because he was Catholic

It was a big deal in 1960 with a lot of Protestants who feared Kennedy would be getting his orders from the Pope.

[5thGenDemocrat]

91. Not Alf Landon

You mean Al Smith (in 1928).
John
When I was in the Army, we were having a bull session in the barracks one night and the subject turned to religion. A fellow trooper, a Protestant from the Bible Belt, turned to me and said "we don't have anything against you regular Catholics -- just them ROMAN Catholics!"
Swear to God -- you can't make this stuff up, folks.

[Wilber_Stool]

33. Let the inquisition begin.

Nobody represses christians like other christians.

[youngdem]

39. I just saw this on our local news station, here in Vicksburg, MS

I really feel for the couple that want to adopt a child. It is sad when a Country that was founded on freedom of religion is punishing those that are not the "right" religion.

[Maddy McCall]

40. Hi, youngdem

Welcome to DU! :toast:

Although this is probably a belated welcome, I just wanted to say hi, from another Mississippian.

:hi:

[youngdem]

46. Thank you!

[eissa]

52. Oh, oh, oh!

Where's the head of the Catholic League? I forget his name....Donahue? He's such a rw blowhard! I want to see his reaction to this!!!

Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.

[AngryOldDem]

111. Just checked the Catholic League site...

Blowhard Billy's too busy defending the fundies and the Air Force Academy at the moment to comment on this trivial matter.

Many of my fellow Catholics, I am very sad to say, have been used six ways to Sunday by both evangelical Protestants and the GOP. The evangelicals got what they wanted; Catholics can now go back to being the whores of Babylon and outcasts of Christianity that the fundies have always painted them as being. The GOP -- well, they'll be back if they need help ramming judicial appointments through, otherwise, it's "See ya in 2008!"

I'm waiting for the shock and disilliusionment to set in among the more traditional Catholics, who saw the evangelicals and Republicans as allies in the never-ending war against liberalism and modernism. But they can't say that they weren't warned -- allies often turn into enemies in unholy alliances, and this is just another case in point.

Many of us saw this shit coming a LONG time ago.

[eissa]

123. I just don't get it

The fundies the Catholics have aligned themselves with are the same ones who questioned the loyalty of JFK, and who have never really considered Catholics to be "real Christians" (like they'd know a real Christian if they saw one to begin with.)

[AngryOldDem]

152. I know, I know...

It was a sad and sickening spectacle to witness during the election season to see some bishops and laity cozy up to such people as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Shameless politicking, to be sure, but for Catholics the stakes are too high and the history is too rancid for this sort of alliance.

As the saying goes, when you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas. But in this case, when you lie down with the dogs, there's no guarantee you'll get up at all. These people were not, are not, and will never be friends of Catholicism. It will be a very bad wakeup call for some in the Church -- especially those who should have known better -- when they look around for fundie support and find only derision.

I'll keep checking the Catholic League website to see if this story makes it onto Bill's radar. It will be interesting to see the spin he puts on it, if he even mentions it at all. If folks care, I'll report back.

[noonwitch]

54. I have had dealings with that agency and they are annoying as hell

I first learned about them at a career day at my high school. They were supposed to be handing out information about social work as a career-most of the brochures were for teen mothers considering abortion vs adoption. They have every right to print and distribute such things, but not at a public school career day.

They run a two sex offenders treatment programs for boys and young teens. The programs are for kids who are too young to go to the training school (juvie prison in MI), and who's offenses didn't involve penetration and physically injuring the victim. My dealings with them found that:

1. They had a policy in which the kids, unless they were on the highest level in the behavior mod program, were not allowed to attend the church or religious institution of their choice. They were given two choices-they could attend the Christian Reformed Services, or they could sit in a chair without getting up for two hours until every one else got back from the CRC service. That means a catholic kid couldn't attend mass unless he was on the highest level, nor could a jewish kid (not that I ever had a jewish kid in the delinquency program)attend temple, nor a muslim kid attend the mosque.

2. Religion was a factor in their censorship of the kids' reading materials. I told them on one occasion that they had every right to confiscate violent or sexually explicit material, but not what they considered "satanic" because it explores the supernatural. This was following their attempt to prevent a kid from reading about UFOs and such in those Time/Life books.

I had to tell them on more than one occasion that the state paid them to help the kids deal with their issues and learn ways to change their sexual behaviors, not to make them evangelical christians.

I've dealt with other agencies that had religious roots-catholic charities, Wedgewood Christian Acres, etc. All of those programs understood the voluntary nature of religion, and offered religious programs, but also made arrangements for participation in services for each child that were his or her faith, and didn't punish those with no faith at all.

[iverglas]

89. good apples and bad apples

As your examples of other agencies show, there is no reason that an agency with religious roots cannot provide services of equal quality to anyone at all -- and should not be REQUIRED to do so if they receive public funding for their activities.

Canada is full of religious-rooted agencies that receive public funds to provide public services. If I had ever smelled the slightest whiff of differential treatment based on religion on the part of, say, the RC immigrant services agency that I referred clients to, I would have been on the phone to the funding department of the federal government so fast the agency wouldn't have had time to make the sign of the cross. And they would have been in deep and unpleasant shit.

The one exception I have encountered is twelve-step addiction programs. Those ones get away with murder. Constant demands to "find your higher power", rejection of clients who didn't play along. (And playing along is absolutely what it was on the part of the hard-core court-referred small-time dealers, and even the unfortunate down-and-out cough syrup drinkers I knew in those programs, where my then partner spent a bit of time.)

I did try getting the problem across to the municipal social services funding department. But they'd never had any complaints from the clients, you see. Mm hmm. Like the vulnerable people in those programs - the people who had nowhere else to go, who had no idea that what was being done to them was *illegal*, whose benefits cheques were controlled by the program operators - were about to complain.

The problem in that case is that this the clientele that no one else wants to deal with. Mental health facilities can't deal with them, the courts don't want them. So somebody gets paid to, basically, screw them over, because then nobody else has to worry about them.

Back to the thing. ;)

There simply is no reason why "faith-based funding" can't operate to the benefit of the public. But what that means is that the funding has to be for the actual purpose of providing a service -- and not for the purpose of advancing an agenda. The only agenda that such an agency should have is to help people ... that being a rather "faith-based" agenda in itself, I'd always thought.

The entire purpose behind the "adoption agencies" funded by those abominable licence plate sales is not to assist pregnant women or would-be adoptive couples. It is to dissuade women from having abortions and to make it more difficult for women to have abortions. That is their sole and only purpose. Well, maybe that overstates it a tad. Their broader purpose is to impose every aspect of their right-wing ideology on as many people as possible, and in this case they do it by exploiting vulnerable individuals for their own ends.

And THAT is not a valid public purpose, and it should NOT be funded by any public agency.

[MichiganVote]

182. Ahhh..but how this agency and Kent County pat each other's backs

Bethany, along with some others I could name, are in the thick of the G.R. / Kent County Courts mental health game. All seriously incestous agencies and ALL tied into the CRC church.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

55. Hey, they're a faith-based initiative! Allowed to discriminate!

<sarcasm>Lay off, huh? </sarcasm>

[Octafish]

56. So what IS the official state religion?

Didn't the First Amendment have something to say about that?

Oh yeah. I forgot. The Constitution is SO over since 9-11.

[Az_lefty]

60. I left the So Baptist and became a Catholic because of this...

I can't tell you how many times I had to sit and listen to this sort of ignorance and bigotry, I knew better and it finally drove me away. In fact, a lot of people have left the S. Baptist church because of the RW taking over (Jimmy Carter for one).

[bobbieinok]

126. Baylor, once a SoBapt univ, dropped its ties in the 70s or 80s

because of the RW take-over of the denomination

[zara]

62. fundamentalism shows its claws...

didn't the right wing agree to paper over this sort of sectarian snarking? not blame jews for jesus death and the like?
DUers lets not forget Northern Ireland and that self proclaimed Christians can fight each other tooth and nail. one is left to wonder whether the marriage of convenience of people of faith versus the secular humanists (a disparate and ragged lot among which I must count myself) is coming to an end? Or will it be a haggard fraying of the marriage of convenience?

[TrogL]

65. Just had a look at their statement of faith

unfortunately it contains heresy.

http://www.bethany.org/A55798/bethanyWWW.nsf/0/FAF8F0A9A73CA87D85256E3C006815D9

Here's a proper statement of faith.

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm

[The White Tree]

67. Thanks for that information

I am going to send that as part of a letter to the Catholic Review in my area. I'll see what happens. Also sending it to some more conservative Catholics that I know.

[Orsino]

68. Peel 'em off.

"When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing..."

Anyone foolish enough to believe that the SoBaptist fundies in charge are interested in protecting other denominations or faiths deserves this little shocker.

Even the "Judeo-Christian" umbrella is only dusted off during election cycles.

[DanCa]

70. Lunacy

Okay people can adopt embryos if they want to but kids can grow up in orphanages if someone doesn't like a person's orientation or religous background? What's next skin color and party affilation?
It's proof positive that these fristian's are just using my god's name in vain to seperate people based on thier check boxed brand of christianity. Personally i think Jesus would want a parent whose loving and kind and a good provider regardless of orientation and religion but thats just me.

You know what's sadly tragic about this. I am sure if you would just get the time to get to know a person you can find better reasons for not wanting them to raise kids than thier religous background :D Sorry just trying to lighten this post up.

[arwalden]

71. What About Homosexuals?

I'm guessing "NO".

[Mari333]

72. hah!

LOL

[MissB]

96. Or Atheists?

Or any non-Christian?

Bah. I hope this bites them in the ass.

[UCLA Dem]

74. Just too disgusting....maybe they should actually read about Jesus.

[jmm]

75. The saddest thing about this story is

this is what it'll take for many people to get pissed off about the government giving money to faith based organizations.

[Maddy McCall]

85. And even sadder...

is that they have many adoptable children listed on their website, but Catholics and gays (and other religions and "undesirables") need not apply.

Many children denied homes by this bigoted organization.

[mondo joe]

76. Ha! Evangelicals "hate the voters, love the votes".

They co-opt Catholics during elections but hate them the rest of the time.

[Mari333]

77. You hit the nail on the head

When they need the Catholic vote, they shmooze with Catholics..but now that their Lord and Saviour Bush is in power, their true colours show..

[yorkiemommie1]

143. just like they do w/ the blacks

and other groups whose votes are just tools for them getting more power.

[Neshanic]

82. So Catholics? You get the picture now? It's not like you were not warned

When Chimp amd his "Moral Values" squad claimed victory, I said stuff like this would happen. The food bank that will not work with Catholics, now this, and even more to come, and I was shunned like a CT at DLC lunch.

Come on in, join us liberal protestants and Jews, the waters fine. We are all together in a rocket sled to Hell as far as these guys go.

[Nay]

155. As a Catholic child in Fla., I was treated like dirt by Baptists and

a couple other fundie denominations, and though I am an atheist now, I continually warn Catholics that THE FUNDIES HATE YOU, AND ARE USING YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR STAND ON ABORTION. It's amazing how many Catholics vote with these bastards when the fundies absolutely despise them.

[Ian David]

177. "First they wouldn't let gays adopt, and the Catholics didn't speak-up...

... because they weren't gay.

And when they wouldn't let Catholics adopt, the Catholics suddenly decided to speak-up."

There are just so many issues aside from the gay rights issue that are just coming back to bite them with the vengence of double-standards gone wild.

Those who say America is a "Christian Naiton" forgot to ask, "Precisely which Christians is it supposed to belong to?"

No sympathy from me.

DU This Poll:

My personal feeling is that yes, they do.
But on this poll, I am going to say "no."

http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=3596858&nav=1L7tc9yZ

[bushisanidiot]

84. The war on christianity marches on in the u.s.a!!

oh.. wait. catholics are christians.

THE WAR ON EVERYONE OTHER THAN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS CONTINUES IN THE USA!!

[GOPBasher]

93. You can say that again. :-) n/t

[GOPBasher]

92. I find this funny.

A majority of Catholics (albeit a small one) actually voted for Bush last November. I just can't wait until more of them realize that the fundamentalist Protestants that they put in charge of our country actually hate them as much as they hate Jews or gays. They deserve the hatred being spewed back into their face. It's even funnier since so many Catholics actually bought those "pro-life" license plates. They give money to the bigot organization, even though they hate Catholics. Hahahahahahaha :rofl: (By the way, this post is written by a Christian who is ashamed of the Christian leadership in this country.)

[txindy]

166. That's okay.

I think it's pretty funny, too, and I'm Catholic. We should all go ahead and have a good laugh at their expense. They bought it, they own it!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

95. what's being missed--this is an ANTI-ABORTION org, not an adoption agency

From their "statement of faith", my emphasis:

I believe that God created the family, giving Adam and Eve the responsibility to conceive, bear and nurture children. As the creator of life, God Himself begins each human life at conception and gives to each person, as His image bearer, meaning, dignity and value.

... I believe that the Christian Church, as the community of believers, has an obligation to protect, preserve, and enhance life as fully as possible for each person, born and unborn, from the beginning to the end of life. ...

They get funding from the state, via licence plate sales, precisely BECAUSE they are anti-abortion.

http://www.crlp.org/crt_cen_plates.html

The Center for Reproductive Rights is involved in legal challenges to specialty license plates bearing the legend "Choose Life" which have appeared in an increasing number of states. These cases raise constitutional issues which include the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and the separation of church and state.

I am quite sure that the Mississippi legislation reads like the Florida legislation, without doing a big google search:

Under the guidelines of the Florida law, passed in 1999, money collected from purchase of the "Choose Life" plates prohibits the distribution of funds to any agency "that is involved or associated with abortion activities, including counseling for or referrals to abortion clinics, providing medical abortion-related procedures, or proabortion advertising." <What the fuck is "proabortion advertising"?>

Only organizations that withhold information about abortion are eligible for funds. This type of viewpoint discrimination is in violation of the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech.

The purpose of these statutes, and the funding under them, is NOT to provide services to vulnerable/disadvantaged clienteles -- the usual purpose of social services/agency funding.

The purpose is to PREVENT WOMEN FROM HAVING ABORTIONS, by making it more difficult for women to access real information about abortion, i.e. by clogging up the public marketplace with fake "helping" agencies that will simply manipulate them into having children that they will surrender for adoption.

The agencies that receive this funding also MAY NOT "assist" women who do not agree to abandon their children at birth. Obviously, the scum running them want their constituency to get some value for the money they're paying, eh?

[merh]

99. Spreading the joy, Maddy --

We have some prejudicial folks in this state and it is not just race.
Thanks for posting.

(BTW - will you be posting about SOS Eric Clark & Diebold machines :scared:)

[Maddy McCall]

103. I think this is more the case of a national evangelical organization...

being prejudice.

I don't have the energy to post about Mississippi's new machines. :(

[merh]

113. I thought this was just their Mississippi policy.

At least that is what the tv reported last night!

I'll try to find that link.

:-( I think SOS Clark insists that the Diebold equipment includes printers for a paper trail, maybe that is why they want him out of the SOS office and on the college board? :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

116. Well, the college board couldn't suck any worse than it does now.

I've got to catch up on some readin'!

[merh]

117. Oh yeah, SOS Clark

is one of the 3 being considered for Commissioner on the College Board.

I figure if he gets the job, it means they are trying to get him out of their way so they can steal more votes. x(

[merh]

141. From WLBT's coverage on this lovely place!

"Bethany's nationwide policy includes Catholics, but Mississippi's state board passed measures to exclude Catholics."

http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=3596858&nav=2CSfc9ya

[Maddy McCall]

173. Damn! Just when I go defending Mississippi...

Shit like this happens. Well, the pro-life establishment in Jackson is quite loony, and I say that with experience...I've had dealings with them on a political level.

I have no love for the national organization, but I hope the national slaps them down.

[merh]

179. I betcha that the national will slap them down.

This is very embarassing for the organization. Jackson is full of loons and Jackson can keep them.

This is not a reflection on Mississippi, it is a reflection on the small minded folks that oversee this organization. :hi:

[XemaSab]

102. It's Idolatry

I used to think Catholicism was just a form of Christianity, but then I learned the truth. I read all about it in a Chick Tract.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1023/1023_01.asp

/sarcasm

[Maddy McCall]

105. LOL!

You are truly evil. :hi: :D

[XemaSab]

106. Thanks.

I try.

:evilgrin:

[KamaAina]

118. "We all have the right to worship in this country..."

"Christians, Catholics and Jews." Marion "Pat" Robertson actually uttered that on national TV many years ago, way back before Gawd told him to run for pResident.

Some years later the Christian Coalition realized it was about as popular in the heavily Catholic Northeast as the gypsy moth. Thus was born the short-lived Cathloic Alliance. Guess the "Christian" Coalition didn't really cover Catholics, huh?

Note: Bethany doesn't seem to have a location on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, where Catholicism predominates (this is the area nearest New Orleans). Hmmm...

[area51]

119. Disgusting anti-Catholic bigotry. (n/t)

[Zhade]

127. That's exactly as fucked-up as not letting gays and lesbians adopt.

Both forms of discrimination are reprehensible.

[Orion The Hunter]

128. Sorry you children that need good homes....

You will have to wait for good, non-Catholics to come and adopt you since we cannot possibly allow any Catholics to take you in. What would God say then?

/sarcasm off

The idea that someone just drew a line and said, "Sorry..no Catholics" is simply and uttely laughable. Whomever is subscribing to that logic seriously needs to get his or her head checked.

[Ian David]

131. Does Pro-Life Catholic, Loria Williams, kill tiny little babies?

<snip>

While going through fertility treatments, Loria Williams, 33, called Bethany in September 2004 because she and her husband decided also to pursue an adoption.

<snip>

Hey, Pro-Life Catholic... where do you think all those embryonic stem cells come from?

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050715/NEWS01/507150380/1002

[July_July]

133. Interesting story...

An uncle of mine works for the GOP (i know, i know) and he once told me how he traveled to one of their functions down south, held in a church, and when the republican sanctioned event began, the local pastor/party member offered a prayer for all those "trapped in bondage by the RC Church."

The bastards haven't the first clue of what Christianity is all about.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. never mind

found the answer upthread.

[Ian David]

138. DU This Poll: Do Catholics have right to adopt through Protestant agency?

My personal feeling is that yes, they do.

But on this poll, I am going to say "no."

I look at this as an opportunity for "tough love" to teach The Vatican that discriminating against a "lifestyle" (in this case, the Catholic lifestyle) is always wrong.

I say, let them "twist in the wind" a while and take it to court.

Please don't flame me, because my opinion is not set in stone, and if you want to change my mind, you just might be able to do it in calm, measured tones, without resorting to charges of Nazism, ok? We're only talking about adoption, not something really important like the right to smoke cigarettes in your car.

I hope the defendants cite the Florida anti-gay adoption statute in their defense and that the courts over-turn both forms of discrimination.

Do you think that a Catholic couple should have the right to adopt a child through a Protestant based adoption agency?

Do you think that a Catholic couple should have the right to adopt a child through a Protestant based adoption agency?


Here are the results so far.
Yes 84%
No 16%

http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=3596858&nav=1L7tc9yZ

[yorkiemommie1]

144. " I'm Catholic "... but are you " CHRISTIAN"??

I guess not. The priest didn't immerse me; I was sprinkled when I was baptized. It's a BIG deal w/ some folks I know.

[SharonAnn]

146. Catholics were Christians befor being Christian was cool!

[yorkiemommie1]

188. i know

but my 'christian ' brother is praying for my soul because I have not been 'reborn '.

we were all born and raised Catholic but he converted to Assembly of God.

[noiretextatique]

147. wow

fucking amazing that this kind of shit is still going on.

[screembloodymurder]

150. Well I think I've found part of that 46%

that approves the Anti-Christ.

[screembloodymurder]

148. I'm not a violent person

(OK that's a lie), but I'd like to meet these hypo-creeps in a back ally and.......

[cap]

149. faith based initiatives will have all the religions at each other's throat

eom

[Yavin4]

154. Yep. That's Why You Gotta Have Separation of Church and State

Because religions will compete against one another for control.

[mcscajun]

156. Another case of reframing to "capture the high ground'

When I first saw this headline, I was sure we were going to be seeing another case of "oh, we're being persecuted by the secularists". Wow, was I amazed that it was Protestants against Catholics; hey, the 1500s all over again.

As others have pointed out: All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. This is a truism.

Catholics And Protestants alike used to refer to non-Roman Catholics as "Protestant". But it's SO much more useful for certain groups of Protestants to relabel themselves as "Christian" and exclude their Roman Catholic "brethren", isnt' it?
:sarcasm:
Redefine yourself as not in the negative, as the "other: or the "ones who Protest" but as the only Christians.

Nothing like internecine warfare, is there?

Somebody pass the salt for the popcorn, please.
:popcorn:

[Ian David]

158. My LTTE: Catholics should lead by example before whining about others

While I am personally against any kind of discrimination such as this, I think
that Catholics have a lot of nerve to whine about it. After all, aren't they
(and also Bethany "Christian" Services) discriminating similarly against gay
people?

I'm sorry, but if you're going to claim "Religious Privilege" to discriminate
against a "Lifestyle Choice," then the Catholic Church needs to be reminded
that being Catholic is most assuredly a "Lifestyle Choice," while there is a
good case to be made that some people are born gay. Nobody is "Genetically
Catholic." With proper prayer and "Restorative Therapy," Catholics can become
good Protestants. People like Pat Robertson have made fortunes that way.

Let me remind you of the Florida statute barring gay adoptions, and the fact
that the Catholic Church has supported this and other measures to ban adoptions
by gay parents.

If the Catholic Church wants to apply these rules against others, then they have
no business complaining when similar rules don't work in their own favor. If
they want to complain, they should lead by example.

I support Bethany "Christian" Services in their decision, because I see it as a
"tough love" lesson to Catholics and others about the consequences of
discrimination. I hope this goes to court and is over-turned, along with other
forms of bigotry. Until then, I say, "Boo-Hoo."

[Maddy McCall]

174. Did you send that to the Clarion Ledger?

[Ian David]

176. Yeah, I did

Should we DU their poll that says only 18% of their readers plan to buy the Harry Potter book?

[Maddy McCall]

180. I already voted in it.

Ridiculous poll. They're famous for stupid polls. I guarantee you, the poll tomorrow or the next day will ask about this adoption scandal...let's save our DUing for THAT poll.

Can't wait to see your letter in print. :hi:

[Endangered Specie]

159. This is not that suprising...

I know many 'protestant' 'Christian' evangelicals/fundies who think the Catholics are just as bad as the Atheists, Homosexuals etc...

Course, most Catholics couldn't give two shits about what they think of them. ;)

[r0x0r Mc0wnage]

160. Regarding the descendants of Alexandria's arsonists

Quantum physics is proving the Old Testament correct regarding the nature of reality, it is understood that we (and all physical matter) are sound energy (the Voice of God), one atom is not, at its most basic level, separated in any meaningful way from any other atom, regardless of the distance between them (we are One), and that observation/consciousness is the method of Creation (an all-seeing, all-knowing Entity as the Creator). . .

And then we have this bullsh!t three-ring-circus sideshow of freaks in Mississippi trying to bring back the Dark Ages. The only thing these people need to be "saved" from is their own hate-mongering barbarism.

[Zenlitened]

162. Substitute "gay" for "catholic" and this could have come from the Vatican.

Think the irony will register on anyone there?

[MissB]

172. .

:rofl:

Now *that* is funny.

[6000eliot]

191. My thoughts exactly

My heart is bleeding.

[TechBear_Seattle]

168. If they can routinely deny to atheist and gay parents because of religion

Why not other religions? Tragic, yes, but symptomatic of fundamentalist bigotry.

[VegasWolf]

170. Well, of course! They only want religions that are progressive. nt

[really annoyed]

178. True Colors

I hope the Catholics that vote conservative will think twice about the people they are supporting.

I'm glad the only Catholic I know is a raving liberal. Love her to death. :)

[IndianaGreen]

184. This is why all of this faith based shit should be done away with

Wht should my tax money go to support these religious extremists such as these anti-Catholic bigots?

Lenin said it best way back in 1905:

Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

V. I. Lenin
Socialism and Religion (1905)

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[Chicago Democrat]

190. Well, that's just common sense!

wink

(sarcasm)

[QC]

192. Can Protestants adopt from Catholic agencies? n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

193. Yes. Any faith can adopt from Catholic agencies.

[Miss Chybil]

196. Puritanism is on the march!

They always were afraid of Catholics. I thought they'd gotten over it a about a hundred years ago. My bad.