NYT: Hybrid Cars Burning Gas in the Drive for Power

[DeepModem Mom]

Hybrid Cars Burning Gas in the Drive for Power
By MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: July 17, 2005


....Many people concerned with oil consumption, including President Bush and members of Congress, are pointing to hybrids - vehicles with electric motors as well as internal combustion engines - as a way to reduce fuel use and dependence on imported oil. The first ones to reach the market did that; the two-seat Honda Insight, introduced in December 1999, was rated at 70 miles per gallon, and it was followed by the five-seat Toyota Prius, also built for reduced fuel consumption. Those cars have no nonhybrid equivalents. Then came the Civic hybrid, designed to perform almost as well as the original, only using a lot less gasoline.

But the pendulum has swung. The 2005 Honda Accord hybrid gets about the same miles per gallon as the basic four-cylinder model, according to a review by Consumer Reports, a car-buyer's guide, and it saves only about two miles a gallon compared with the V-6 model on which it is based. Thanks to the hybrid technology, though, it accelerates better.

Hybrid technology, it seems, is being used in much the same way as earlier under-the-hood innovations that increased gasoline efficiency: to satisfy the American appetite for acceleration and bulk.

Despite the use of hybrids to achieve better performance with about the same fuel economy, consumers who buy the cars continue to get a tax credit that the Internal Revenue Service allows under a "clean fuels" program that does not take fuel savings into account....

***

But some hybrids save hardly any fuel, energy efficiency advocates say. "The new ones are all being used for power," said Kateri Callahan, the president of the Alliance to Save Energy, a nonprofit advocacy group based (in Washington)....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/automobiles/17hybrid.html

[Not_Giving_Up]

1. I noticed on a commercial for Hybrid Accord

That my Corolla already gets better gas mileage.

[still_one]

2. First I have two Prius's and they are amazing

besides fuel savings the hybrids have almost zero emissions, that is an added benefit

In addition the critisim about the accord hybrid not saving very much, whenever the vechile come to a stop the gas engine is no longer running, only the electric motor, and in a lot of stop/go traffic you will notice a savings

[Trillo]

5. If it has a gasoline powered internal combustion engine,

it's a carbon dioxide emitter.

[still_one]

8. yup, but almost zero emissions. I am exempt from smog checks in Calif

it is a great transition vechicle into fuel cells, etc.

[Trillo]

9. I wonder whether conversion kits will be available to

"scrap" the gas-powered engine and replace it with a fuel cell that fits in the same location. I imagine it would take some fairly large reprogramming of the onboard computer, and likely that circuitry isn't 'open-source.'

[still_one]

10. I doubt they will do it that way

[AndyTiedye]

14. Conversions from Gas to Electric are Common

They use conventional batteries though.

[AndyTiedye]

13. The Toyotas and Fords Can run On Electric Power at Low Speeds

the Honda hybrids cannot. Honda hybrids have much less electric power
than Toyotas or Fords so they do not deliver as much of an improvement in MPG.

What I'd like to see is a hybrid version of the Civic Del Sol
(with Toyota-style full-hybrid technology). Our Del Sol
gets around 40 MPG, but it's 11 years old and has a lot of
miles on it. Imagine what a hybrid Del Sol could do.

[krkaufman]

27. Yep, God forbid they make a stylin' hybrid. n/t

[trogdor]

44. Really.

Seen the Lexus hybrid. It looks like a pregnant RAV4. Since when is that cool?

[Placebo]

3. We got rid of our big Explorer and got a Focus.

Did it piss me off at first? Yes. Oh fuck yes. I fucking hated it! I was so used to riding high in that big roomy gas-guzzler that I fucking hated it.

But now it doesn't seem so bad. And it does get a HELL of a lot better gas mileage.

I know it's not a hybrid, but it was still a big change that was made primarily for environmental reasons. Could have gotten another Explorer. And there was a long ass waiting list for Priuses.

[AndyTiedye]

6. We Traded in our RAV-4 for an Escape Hybrid

The Escape is bigger and more comfortable, pollutes less, and burns considerably less fuel.

Average MPG for the Escape Hybrid is about the same as the Focus.

[Strelnikov_]

22. Would You Get Pissed All Over Again If In Told You

that in Europe they sell the Focus in Diesel and Flex-Fuel variants?

[skids]

4. Industry screed.

A fair comparison is to compare cars with equal performance and features. Make no mistake, this is FUD planted by the American auto industry because they dropped the ball and didn't get a hybrid out the door fast enough, and now they are hurting due to their own recalcitrance.

Later when the warranty on my Prius wears out, I'll get into hacking it to charge from a renewable source. Then we'll see what kind of mileage difference there is. Try to do that with a gas-only sipper.

[wli]

7. gas mileage was always my top criterion

It just made sense. The cost of operation contributes to the cost of the vehicle. I wasn't even "thinking green" about it. I still am not; I maintain that if I weren't being hypocritical about it I'd not use it at all, though I do rack up less than 1000 mi/yr.

[KeepItReal]

11. This is a B.S. article that by its headline gives all hybrids a bad name

Honda's hybrids are not the same as Toyota's nor Ford's.

When people think hybrids, they generally think of increased fuel economy, not a "green turbocharger". That means Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are more representative of true hybrids. The Honda Accord hybrid is not even on the radar in terms of fuel economy. The Accord makes up the bulk of the discussion in this news piece, though.

The Lexus RX400h and Escape Hybrid may offer better fuel economy for SUVs, but don't compare them to car...

[AndyTiedye]

15. Green Turbocharger is Good Too

If you get the performance end of the market driving hybrids,
soon everybody will want them.
An electric motor can provide power faster than any gas engine.
Naturally, this is attractive to those who want performance.
This is a segment of great interest to the automakers because
they are willing and able to spend more money on their vehicles
than the average motorist. They also have disproportionate
influence on other buyers.

[Toucano]

24. I had a different understanding of the article.

I understood the article to be about the auto industry's bastardization of hybrid technology to better fit their ancient marketing strategy.

Car makers have created the demand for acceleration and horse power by talking about these qualities almost exclusively, with a little attention also paid to design and comfort.

If, instead, the industry talked about how safe and efficient their vehicles are, those would become the primary concern for car buyers.

They've created a false demand for 0 to 60 in 4.2 seconds, and I think this article is a warning that they're about to ruin the promise hybrids hold for a cleaner, cheaper future. Witness the Accord that "is not even on the radar". Why would anyone manufacture a hybrid that would fit that description? The only answer I can think of is that the marketing people a fixated on sticking with the false "performance" measures they've crafted in the American psyche.

[Psephos]

25. I wonder if you also think drug lords create demand for drugs

The appetite for speed and power comes from the buyers, not the sellers. The sellers may enhance that appetite, and appeal to it in myriad ways, but it begins with basic human emotional impulses.

This view of consumers as passive receptacles waiting to be programmed by corporations sounds good in rhetoric but doesn't always square with experience. As with most generalizations it is a pale substitute for the complexities involved. Frankly, it sounds like something leftover from the 70s.

The semi-mythical sheeple are a dwindling minority in this age of technology-enhanced information awareness. The fact that we are exchanging opinions on this board tells you something important.

As usual, I offer these as my opinions only. Other opinions gladly tolerated.

Peace.

[Toucano]

26. Technology-enhanced information awareness?

You're hilarious!

Of course you're absolutely right. The demand for enormous horsepower is so great in the marketplace that the auto makers spend no money and effort marketing their products. Why should they? The buyers already want it.

There's no need for every third ad in a prime-time telecast to be a automobile climbing a mountain or racing across a desert. That's why all the ads (as infrequent as they are) feature cars in the environment where consumers will use them, like gridlocked suburban interstates and supermarket parking lots.

It's a great example of "informed awareness". How else would a buyer know what vehicle provides enough "performance" to take them on their daily commute through the Grand Canyon or get them from the first McDonald's drive-thru window to the second drive-thru window and still have time to pick up Billy from grandma's house, over the river and through the woods?

It's a good thing GM and Ford have been listening to the needs and wants of the consumers. Otherwise, their stock prices would be in the toilet.

[Psephos]

28. "Their stock prices would be in the toilet"

So, which is it? They've been listening to the needs and wants of the consumers (which they've completely programmed), or they haven't been?

You're playing both sides of the argument. Fascinating.

Peace.



EDIT: typo fix

[Toucano]

31. Which is it? It's sarcasm. n/t

[Psephos]

35. Quick question

So why are the stock prices in the toilet if GM/Ford have so completely programmed the sheeple to buy what they sell? Why not just reprogram them again and keep the money rolling in?

A premise may be in need of an overhaul here...

LOL

Peace.



EDIT: unclear referent fixed

[KittyWampus]

41. Because US Companies Are Too Stupid To Retool For Hybrids

or rather the CEO's are too greedy to spend the $ to retool.

And then there's market saturation and the price of gas.

Marketing is brain washing.

You can either feed into Humanity's reptilian brain or it's higher brain.

It's pretty obvious which variant US auto makers have been mindfucking us with.

[krkaufman]

30. Or how about some car commercials....

... with veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars asking Americans to think before they buy their next car?

[rinsd]

42. Yes, man never yearned for speed until the Big 3 stepped in....

"Car makers have created the demand for acceleration and horse power by talking about these qualities almost exclusively, with a little attention also paid to design and comfort."

Hmmm...I guess all that stuff about interior features and legroom that accompanies every single car commercial has no effect. What caused the first generation of gearheads to start supping up their roadsters? Or what created the popularity of the motorcycle?

"If, instead, the industry talked about how safe and efficient their vehicles are, those would become the primary concern for car buyers."

Again, how many car ads revolves around crash tests?

[Gloria]

12. We have a VW Passat Turbo Station Wagon with a 1.6 L engine

which is smaller than my Golf's 2.0. The Passat, which is 500 lbs heavier than my Golf and in the next weight class, not only has much better pick up than my Golf and the 6 cylinder version, but the mileage is AWESOME. Once warmed up, we get about 30 mpg, about 25+ mpg in slow traffic. It is really amazing. That little l.6 L engine (the size of my 1990 Golf 5-speed manual) lugs that big wagon around easily with the occasional boost when needed from the turbo. And I mean, it takes off like a rocket. And it's bigger inside than most SUVs.

And both my 2003 Golf and the 2003 Passat Wagon are rates as low-emissions vehicles...

[Dover]

32. Toyota Matrix gets 30 City/36 Hwy.

And, there is an advantage to owning a Toyota.....excellent service record...which has become of huge importance to me after the nightmare of dealing with Dodge. The vehicle was okay, it was the service/repair problems that grew molehills into mountains.




Upon introduction, the Standard 4X2 is equipped with a standard 1.8-liter, I4, 130-horsepower engine that achieves 30-mpg in the city and 36-mpg on the highway. A 5-speed manual transmission with overdrive is standard, and a 4-speed automatic transmission with overdrive is optional. The XRS 4X2 is equipped with a standard 1.8-liter, I4, 170-horsepower engine that achieves 25-mpg in the city and 32-mpg on the highway. A 6-speed manual transmission with overdrive is standard.

Consumer Guide Says:
BEST BUY
Pros:
Available all-wheel drive, Fuel economy, Cargo room, Rear-seat room
Cons:
Engine noise, Ride (XRS)

Also, I've heard that Pontiac Vibe is very similar and is made by Toyota and GM with many of the same parts as the Corolla. The Vibe even looks similar to the Matrix, and has about the same fuel efficiency.

[NickB79]

38. The Scion xA is also nice, like a slightly smaller Vibe

I just bought one a week ago, and it is excellent. Only 108 HP, but I have no problem accelerating due to it's overall light weight. I'm averaging 33mpg with mostly city driving, and it's rated at 31/38 city/highway.

[EOTE]

33. VW/Audi 1.8T.

It's actually a 1.8 liter engine, but feels much larger due to it's five valve per cylinder technology as well as the tiny, quick to spool turbo. I recently purchased an '01 GTI with the engine to replace my Lincoln LS which I sold to a friend (I loved the car, but should have known better to get a gas guzzler regardless of gas prices). Anyway, even after modding the engine to be in the 230+ hp range, I still average 30+ mpg and have way more storage room than my Lincoln could have dreamed of. I'm 6'4" and am generally a big guy and the car fits me perfectly. It's such a relief having such infrequent trips to the gas station even while having a tank that's 3 gallons smaller. Hybrid technology is great, but it's nice to know that there are affordable cars out there using internal combustion engines which still provide value and great fuel economy.

BTW, I believe the 1.8T has been on Ward's 10 Best Engine List since it's introduction in '95 or '96. It's just now been replaced by a larger 2.0T that will be used in the current Jetta and the upcoming Audi A3.

[Gloria]

43. Oops, you're right! I meant 1.8L....

It's really a great engine as are most all VW engines....

[KeepItReal]

16. This article is factually inaccurate... Check Honda and Car and Driver

Here's Honda's stats...

Accord (non hybrid)
4 cylinder manual transmission engine (city/highway): 26/34
4 cylinder autmatic transmission engine (city/highway): 24/34
6 cylinder engine (city/hybrid): 21/30

Accord Hybrid
(city/highway): 29 / 37

http://automobiles.honda.com/

Here's Car and Driver's take:

"In the Honda line, this is the best Accord, just as the Civic hybrid is the best Civic. But the Accord pushes the envelope to include 0-to-60 in 6.7 seconds in a comfy five-passenger sedan while, according to the EPA, achieving 30 mpg city, 37 highway. Yes! Consider: The four-cylinder automatic Accord does only 24 city and 34 highway. With today's technology, only a hybrid could hit all of these marks."

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=8779&page_number=1

[Up2Late]

17. I just got back from my first trip in my Dad's new Toyota Highlander

Hybrid. We drove from Atlanta to Washington D.C. (Columbia, MD actually), and we got about 25 average MPG.

Anyone know what a standard 2WD Toyota Highland get on average on a mostly Highway trip? :shrug:

[coyote]

18. I have a Toyota RAV4 thats gets about 37 mpg

but it's a turbo diesel. It´s too bad that the States uses the high sulfur diesel compared to the cleaner European diesel. However, that will change in mid-2006....so you might finally see the European turbo-diesels coming over.

Also the diesels now are just as clean if not more so than the normal gas engines in Europe.

[Carolab]

19. Just took my new turboed Subaru WRX across the country.

Got 30 MPG climbing up and down mountain roads all across Colorado, WITH the A/C on.

Can't beat that.

[harper]

20. I looked in to getting a hybrid in 2003, when I bought my corolla

AT that time I had a 30 minute highway commute one way to work and decided that a hybrid wouldn't make sense given my driving patterns. It seemed from my reading that they didn't get the great mileage advertised with straight highway driving.

I also looked into a volkswagen diesel, but at that time Volkswagen was having some real reliability issues.

Now I wish I had gotten a Prius because I changed jobs and work locally. I hardly ever get on the highway and do mostly stop and go local driving...the kind where a Prius would make sense.

Now that Detroit is making hybrids I look for problems. They can't seem to make a decent internal combustion engine after all these years. Think how they will screw up a hybrid engine.

[AndyTiedye]

37. I Get EPA Highway Mileage or Better on the Highway

EPA Highway mileage for the 4wd Escape Hybrid is 29.
We're getting at least that, sometimes as much as 31 on the highway.
That's at 65. It will burn more gas at 80.
We don't do that much city driving, but when we do get stuck in
traffic it's nice to creep along on electric power. One of the
most infuriating thing about traffic jams in a regular car is
sitting there watching the engine waste gas going nowhere, and
overheat, and spew pollution (idling is the worst).
The regenerative braking is really nice to have in the mountains too.

That diesel RAV4 sounds sweet, but you can't buy them here.
A diesel/electric hybrid would be the next step. That should work especially
well because the diesel can be run at a constant speed to provide
electricity while using the electric motors for propulsion. They
have been building locomotives that way for years. There are also
diesel/electric hybrid transit buses.

[Orsino]

21. Prius vs. Accord

I drive both now. The Accord seems to get nearly 30 mpg, which is a significant improvement over the Maxima we traded in (which got 23 or so). My wife wanted a V6 sedan, nd I'm delighted that she went with the hybrid.

Doesn't hold a candle to my Prius, though, which gets 55+ reliably.

[ihelpu2see]

23. VW TDI is still a better option, plus you can make your own BioDiesel!

Even on bad days when I have the AC cranking in my TDI Golf I get over 40mpg... I cant waite for Jeep to offer a Turbo version of the Jeep CRD diesel. The addition of a turbo will improve the mpg as well as the power.

[EOTE]

34. As far as I know, the current CRD is a turbo.

According to what I've read, it's a 2.8 liter turbo diesel 4-cylinder. It's another of the engines created from the DiamlerChrysler merger and supposedly has the torque output of a V8 (giving it a towing capacity far greater than the optional V6 available now), the acceleration of a V6 (giving it far better acceleration than the base 4 cylinder), as well as the fuel economy of the base 4 cylinder. Looks to be quite an amazing engine.

[ihelpu2see]

36. OMG, I am sorry you are correct, I wonder why the economy is not better

than listed??

Here is JEEP link.... http://www.jeep.com/crd/index.html

thanks again,

[sellitman]

29. I heard they can "tweak" the Prius and get over 100 MPG's

I saw a documentary on it.

[olddad56]

39. I'm waiting for the Hybrid Hummer, 8MPG, but uses an electric starter

[cyberpj]

40. Our 2002 Prius continues to give us 50+ mpg and we LOVE IT. nt.

I'll have to take this article to the users group online and see what they have to say about it.

Hmph!

[natrat]

45. people concerned with oil consumption,.. Bush and...congress

fuck you nyt, fuck you congress and fuck whore bush