AP - Gen. William Westmoreland dead at 91

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Retired Gen. William Westmoreland, who commanded American troops in Vietnam — the nation’s longest, most divisive conflict and the only war America lost — died Monday night. He was 91.
Westmoreland died of natural causes at Bishop Gadsden retirement home, where he had lived with his wife for several years, said his son, James Ripley Westmoreland.

The silver-haired, jut-jawed officer, who rose through the ranks quickly in Europe during World War II and later became superintendent of West Point, contended the United States did not lose the conflict in Southeast Asia.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

1. yahoo link

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050719/ap_on_re_us/obit_westmoreland
(continues ap article)

"It's more accurate to say our country did not fulfill its commitment to South Vietnam," he said. "By virtue of Vietnam, the U.S. held the line for 10 years and stopped the dominoes from falling."

He would later say he did not know how history would deal with him.

"Few people have a field command as long as I did," he said. "They put me over there and they forgot about me. But I was there seven days a week, working 14 to 16 hours a day.

"I have no apologies, no regrets. I gave my very best efforts," he added. "I've been hung in effigy. I've been spat upon. You just have to let those things bounce off."

Later, after many of the wounds caused by the divisive conflict began to heal, Westmoreland led thousands of his comrades in the November, 1982, veterans march in Washington to dedicate the Vietnam War Memorial.

He called it "one of the most emotional and proudest experiences of my life."

[Old and In the Way]

7. Stopped the domino's from falling?

If we had carpet bombed VietNam with $10 bills, we could have won the war in a week.

[DBoon]

13. We created the Khmer Rouge

without the "secret war" in Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge would not have had a chance.

Of course when Vietnam put an end to that bloodbath, which country refused to support the Vietnamese?

Yes the dominoes did fall. We pushed them.

[bpilgrim]

2. who won korea?

we sure didn't, i know, we must all FORGET that one.

peace

[freedom_to_read]

48. it was a tie

j/k

[bpilgrim]

69. it was a nuclear STALEMATE, everyone LOST...

specially the koreans.

:hi:

peace

[93ncsu]

68. Based on the mission criteria ...

it was definitely a win, but for the UN not the US.

The Korean War was the first big test of the fledgeling UN. North Korea invaded South Korea in a totally unprovoked manner. The mission set forth by the UN was to retake the ground lost to the North and re-establish South Korea's sovereignty. The mission was not the overthrow of North Korea.

The mission was a success, and the internationally recognized borders were re-established (and are maintained to this day) at the 38th parallel.. The war lasted much longer than it should have only because the Chinese got involved.

[bpilgrim]

70. we got our butts kicked back to the table (38th P)

and forced into a NUCLEAR standoff with the commies and we blinked, finally, fortunately...

chimpy, is blinking his ass off yet I don't think it means the same thing :NUKE:



http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[deminks]

3. Dupe, please delete

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

4. I just watched, for the second time, "The Path to War" on HBO

(I think it was) the other night. Anyone else see this? Alec Baldwin played Westmoreland.

[Greeby]

14. Umm

Sorry to be pedantic, but I just went and checked imdb.

Alec Baldwin played McNamara, Tom Skerritt played Westmoreland

:hi:

[acmavm]

5. I remember Westmoreland. I remember him very well. He sacrificed

over 56 thousand Americans in a way that he knew, knew, we could not win. They all knew it.

It was the prototype for Iraq. We cannot win. These delusional bastards know it now. But like before, they will not withdraw. And that's what it comes down to. The fact that we did not win in Viet Nam, and george 'the war president' but finding out that he can't win in the Middle East.

[FloridaPat]

12. I remember after the Afghanistan invasion some stupid repub

said if * was president during Vietnam, the war would only have lasted a month. I think it's time to find that person and spread that quote all over the US.

[TahitiNut]

21. April 22, 1968 - GEN Abrams Replaces GEN Westmoreland

SAIGON (MACV) - President Johnson announced last week that GEN Creighton W. Abrams will replace GEN William C. Westmoreland as commander of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam (MACV). GEN Westmoreland was nominated to become Army Chief of Staff.

GEN Abrams, presently deputy commander to GEN Westmoreland, will be replaced by LTG Andrew J. Goodpaster who is serving as Commandant of the Army War College at Fort McNair, Washington, D.C. Goodpaster was a former aid to Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower and John F. Kennedy.

Both appointments were recommended by the Joint Chiefs of Staff as well as Defense Secretary Clark M. Clifford according to the President’s announcement.

GEN Goodpaster will also be nominated by the President for promotion to four-star general.

Fifty-three-year-old GEN Abrams was a tank commander in World War II under GEN George S. Patton and during Korea served as Chief of Staff for I Corps, X Corps and IX Corps. In 1955 he became Chief of Staff at the Armored Center at Fort Knox, Ky.

During his nearly 32 years of military service since graduation from the Military Academy at West Point in 1936, GEN Abrams has served with the 1st Cav Div, 1st Armored Div, 4th Armored Div, 1st Inf Div, 2nd Armored Regiment and 3rd Armored Div which he commanded from Oct 1960 until May 1962. He has served in many other assignments in the United States and overseas.

On Aug 3, 1964, he was appointed acting Vice Chief of Staff, United States Army. He came to Vietnam as deputy commander June 1 of last year.

Among his many citations, awards and medals, the general has received the Distinguished Service Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Distinguished Service Medal with two Oak Leaf Clusters, the Silver Star Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Legion of Merit with Oak Leaf Cluster and the Bronze Star Medal with Valor Device.
_______________________________________________________________

MACV was the initial ("advisory") force in Viet Nam, and was much, much smaller than USARV in 1968 - the vast majority of combat forces.

[leftchick]

40. I am listening to Vic Snyder D-Ark. on C-Span

That asshat is saying the same fucking thing! "It doesn't matter how we got to Iraq. We need to stay and help the Iraqis form a new democracy in the region for others to follow"!!!

I am Outraged when I hear DEMOCRATS still spouting this bullshit! They should be saying .. BRING THEM HOME!!!


:banghead:

[DURHAM D]

6. Isn't it nice he got to die of natural causes - 58,000 Americans

killed in Vietnam - several million injured - and tens of thousands more died from Agent Orange.

May he rest in peace.

[susanna]

16. What DURHAM D said. n/t

[serryjw]

17. The "Good die Young" and the SOB

Lived to 91. Is their any justice in this world?

[Justitia]

19. I was just about to post "only the good die young", the bastards always

seem to live to a ripe old age, as though evil words and deeds keep them artificially alive.

Yes, way too many young men did not have the pleasure of living a life as long as Westmoreland - no matter how long he was in Vietnam ("14 - 16 hr days, 7 days a week").

Amazingly (at least to anyone w/a conscience), he says he has no regrets, the US won the conflict, he is untroubled by the events that happened there, and criticism just "bounces off" him.

My apologies to his family, but he sounds like yet another soulless monster. Of which we have too many already.

[serryjw]

22. After 9-11 I was fundraising for

the 'Homeless Veterans". OMG was that an eye opener. Yes, we lost 58,000 but what about the hundreds of thousands that came home mentally and physically unable to work?

quote.......
the VA estimates that nearly 200,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. And more than half a million experience homelessness over the course of a year.

http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

Be sure to support our troops!

[nolabels]

27. They all live in the hell they helped to create

Their fear and our fear are one in the same, it keeps us here till that next fateful time


http://mtglair.de/homer.html

[Sean Reynolds]

31. Too bad LBJ lived as long as he did.

He should have died way before Kennedy was shot.

[Mairead]

35. I disagree. He did more good than JFK ever did. (nt)

[erpowers]

43. Question Is Why

Thwe question is was LBJ pushed to do more than JFK and die LBJ do more because of JFK's death. If you remember the civil rights act got pushed after JFK's death, but it was Kennedy's issue. LBJ was able to use JFK's death to push some people to support the issue. So it can be asked why he was able to do more than JFK.

[Mairead]

45. He saw his chance and took it, you're right

Which is why I remember him with admiration despite his many failings--he could have exploited JFK's death to crush our rights and broaden the wealth chasm, as Bush did after 911. But instead he took on racism and poverty.

JFK also got a big public adulation--almost hero-worship--with Jackie and his war record and all the 'Camelot' mythology. But the only thing he really seems to have used it for was to shtup poor Marilyn and stare down Nikita Sergeevich. He talked a good game, but it never looked to me as tho he had the goods in the parcel.

[mitchum]

50. And I agree with you

[Sean Reynolds]

55. Except he killed how many Americans?

Sorry, but his record on civil rights really doesn't hide the fact he continued to pour American troops into a war that had no end. LBJ is a big reason why Vietnam turned out the way it did.

He, like Bush, is a murderer.

[Mairead]

57. My point is that he was better than JFK, not that he was good

And you can consider US lives more valuable than other lives, but I don't.

[Sean Reynolds]

58. Do I? No.

I could have easily of said he killed many Vietnamese as well...I'm sorry I left that out, too.

LBJ might have been a good domestic president, but when it came to foreign wars he was a murderous hawk.

[olddad56]

62. In the spirit of fairness, Nixon killed a lot of the troops in Vietnam.

[Sean Reynolds]

63. Yes he did.

[moodforaday]

67. There's a saying...

...here in Poland: The devil isn't quick to claim his own.

[RummyTheDummy]

46. Not to mention tens of thousands

Who came back so mentally fucked up they found it impossible to lead normal lives.

[ClayZ]

47. Many still on street corners

begging. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder swirling around their heads since that war. We will have to get more corners for the Iraq vetrans since they won't fund medical care.


ARGH!

[Bo]

52. Didn't close to 3,000,000 other than Americans die in totality?

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Didn't they get the memo? It was just another "police action"

and you can't lose a "police action," you can just mess it up real bad.

I see the General himself calls it a "conflict" and calls the US emergency evacuation of Saigon a resounding success, peace with honor, if you will.

Got a link? It's hard to believe that old war horse is dead. He sure put out a lot of hooey during the war and was a lighting rod for the antiwar folks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. Death has very deceitfully taken advantage of the summer ceasefire

in order to cause maximum consternation....

Good ole Westy, master of bullshit disguised as bullshit.

[MisterP]

10. hibachi!

[anotherdrew]

11. "only war America lost" please - we haven't even finished the Korean yet

Note how it's talking about America in the past-tense, not a good sign.

[caligirl]

15. I grew up a couple of doors down from him at Clark Air Base, I was a

I grew up a couple of doors down from him at Clark Air Base Phillipines, I was a little kid then in the 60's.




>>>As commander of the 34th Field Artillery Battalion fighting German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, he earned the loyalty and respect of his troops for joining in the thick of battle rather than remaining behind the lines at a command post.


He was promoted to brigadier general during the Korean War and later served in the Pentagon under Army Chief of Staff Maxwell Taylor.


Westmoreland became the superintendent of West Point in 1960 and, by 1964, was a three-star general commanding American troops in Vietnam.<<

[TahitiNut]

18. Well, now they can finally remove that hoe-handle from his rectum.

Westmoreland (yes, I saw him several times) was probably the stiffest, least flexible martinets of the flag officers of that day. Parade duty for that jackass, standing in the sun listening to him drone on and on, was some of the longest, dullest duty I ever had. (I was in our unit's honor guard at 5thArmyHQ.)

[Mountainman]

20. I lived just around the corner from him in Vietnam in 1967-68.

He rode around Long Bihn in a red 1967 fastback Ford Mustang. I wanted one just like it and got it after I got back.

[caligirl]

26. I'm pretty sure his wife and kids were living at Clark, those years are

the years we were there.

[alfredo]

23. As an old soldier all I can do is repeat an old African saying

"When the ax came to the forest, the trees said 'the handle's one of us.'"

[leftofthedial]

65. that is a great saying

thanks.

[alfredo]

71. Yer welcomed. I got it from an Alice Walker book,

"Possessing The Secret of Joy."

[daleo]

24. I wouldn't have thought the U.S. would get into another Viet Nam

But the fact that Westmoreland never thought it was a mistake shows that some people can never learn. Bush II brought too many of those old Viet Nam war horses (or worse, wannabe war horses) back on the scene.

Here's to you General. If there is an afterlife, I hope you have to spend a day talking to every person who died because of you. That ought to keep you busy for centuries.

[The_Casual_Observer]

25. Waste-more-land

his name in the late 60's

[The Sushi Bandit]

29. Only Peace Marchers Remember that name!

RIPeace

[montana_hazeleyes]

30. I can't believe it took me 'til the bottom

of the thread to see the name I know him as -- Waste-more-land. I was going to post it.

[Aristus]

64. You beat me to it!

My father always called him that. He should know. He was stationed at the 93rd Evac Hospital, Long Binh, 1968-1969.

[President Jesus]

28. Westmoreland's political donations

Take a wild guess which team he played for...
http://www.newsmeat.com/washington_political_donations/William_Westmoreland.php

[IndianaGreen]

32. RIP Westy!

Not once did you ever express any regret for all of the killings and misery you brought to Vietnam. No deathbed conversion for you!

[jaysunb]

33. Served under him in Nam....

RIP.....if you can.

[tsuki]

34. NYT

General Westmoreland Dies at 91; Led U.S. in Vietnam

By ERIC PACE
Published: July 19, 2005


A military historian and former Army major, Andrew F. Krepinevich, argued that the general had suffered from self-delusion in Vietnam. In a 1986 book, "The Army and Vietnam" (Johns Hopkins), the major said, "In focusing on the attrition of enemy forces rather than on defeating the enemy through denial of his access to the population," General Westmoreland's command "missed whatever opportunity it had to deal the insurgents a crippling blow."

In 1990, the author Jessica Mitford asked the general at a newspaper industry convention in Washington whether he had suffered from "massive self-delusion." Chin jutting, he dismissed her question as nonsense.

Critics also said that the priority given to fighting major Communist units in the field impeded efforts to regain control of villages, and that the mobility gained by the lavish use of aircraft was misused. Saigon fell to the Communists in 1975, seven years after General Westmoreland was replaced as commander and two years after the last American combat troops were withdrawn.

<snip>

By the time Saigon fell, he was in retirement in his native South Carolina, having served as chief of staff from 1968 to 1972. In that assignment he won praise for his handling of complex administrative problems. But he was given little say in the Vietnam War effort, and his hopes for promotion to chairman of the Joint Chiefs went unfulfilled.

--------------

He had 35 more years than many of my generation.

[bvar22]

36. The World is a better place.

One less mass murderer taking up space.

[bluestateguy]

37. Um, anyway

Did you all hear that "Charlie and the Chocolate factory" opened at #1 this week at the box office?

[no_hypocrisy]

38. Westmoreland commanded my dear friend in "Operation Hastings".

http://www.vwam.com/client/contentclient.php?intIdContent=28

Tony was sent with green Marines into a territory of Vietnam that our military decided they had to possess. The plan was to use Tony and his platoon as "bait" to get the North Vietnamese soldiers to come out of hiding and then a larger Marine batallion would circle THEM and close in. Unfortunately, that left Tony and platoon at a disadvantage because they were not told about the master plan and they were in danger of being squeezed as the both circles of soldiers moved toward the center. Out of 24 soldiers, Tony was one of two still alive after 24-48 hours. He reacted accordingly. He had a nervous breakdown. The good news is it was his ticket out of Vietnam. The bad news is that the Pentagon didn't want North Vietnam hearing about the U.S. military having post-traumatic stress issues. So they classified Tony as "Battle Fatigue" and when he was treated in the military hospital, the fiction continued as he was treated literally for battle fatigue, not his breakdown. To this day, his life has not been the same.

So, I'll recognize Westmoreland's other contributions, but I won't forget how he changed my friend's life forever.

[nguoihue]

72. Operation Hasting - Bait

... Out of 24 soldiers, Tony was one of two still alive after 24-48 hours.

Gee, you mean we really didn't "win all the battles" as in the oft repeated lie ... we won all the battles but lost the war?

The body count king himself is finally gone. He won't be missed by this vet.

[llmart]

39. I'll shed no tears over this lying.......

egotistical bastard. There are plenty like him in the military today too, and just like Bush et al. they'll never admit they were wrong. If you've watched "The Fog of War" at least you can see that McNamara is suffering for his part in the VietNam War. Westmoreland fed one lie after another to Johnson about how we were winning and all is great (sound familiar?) just to puff up his ego.

Hope he's burning in hell.

[RetroLounge]

41. Gotta suck to die before Shark Week is over

on the Discovery Channel

RL

[MarkTwain]

42. A Lying, Arrogant, Corrupt....

... Son of a Bitch.

Burn in hell for your complicity in and your direct responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans, the further destruction of tens of thousands of additional American lives when they returned home, and the murder of millions of Vietnam's fathers, sons, mothers, and daughters.

Burn, bastard, burn.

[sidpleasant]

44. Burn in hell for all eternity, Westmoreland

Westmoreland seems to have been a borderline sociopath completely devoid of the essential human quality of empathy. He had no feelings at all for the soldiers under his command - they were just game pieces on a map to him.

[mitchum]

49. Old soldiers never die, they just lie their asses off

rest in the ground, Westy

[DemoTex]

51. You and Lyndon keep a light on for Kissinger, Calley, and McNamara.

With a body count in the millions, you guys eclipse most other war criminals. Even the current well-tutored set. Oh, I forgot Tricky-Dick (he would be on the the spit next to the one reserved for Kissinger).

[hadrons]

53. Gen. William C. Westmoreland dies of natural causes

Gen. William C. Westmoreland, the World War II hero who was later vilified for his leadership of the United States' failed war in Vietnam, died Monday night in Charleston, S.C. He was 91.

Westmoreland died of natural causes at Bishop Gadsden retirement home, his son, James Ripley Westmoreland, told Associated Press.

Jut-jawed and ramrod straight, strong-willed but soft-spoken, the spit-and-polish Westmoreland projected the quintessential image of an American military leader. Although some critics would later call him a warmonger and even a war criminal, his rise through the Army hierarchy was the stuff of which legends are made.

....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050719/ts_latimes/acommandercaughtinthemireofvietnam;_ylt=AjiO4.O.Cys79auBYGfyQ07v15gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[Submariner]

54. I hope his coffin is napalmed during the funeral

and that he rots in hell with LBJ for eternity. Hang in there Westy, that draft dodging coward Dubya will join up with you eventually.

[stopbush]

56. Wastemoreland is one of the big reasons that we Nam-era

types learned to distrust the military. Sorry if that extended to the troops - and all of those in authority, for that matter - but that's what happens when a lying SOB sends your friends and classmates into a meat grinder.

It's sad to see that his delusions stayed with him to the end.

[liwkenne]

59. I'll never forget his statement in the film "Hearts and Minds"

"Well, the Oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as does the Westerner. Life is plentiful; life is cheap in the Orient. And as the philosophy of the Orient expresses it, life is not important."

But.. but...why do people hate us?

[mikita]

60. seeing his pics brings it all back ....

and it makes me sick to see us headed down the exact same path again. This time is tougher though, with fewer people involved/concerned because of a "volunteer" (well sort of) armed forces, and this time, no large-scale media reporting (even though it wasn't the best back then, it looks great compared to now). I don't believe in heaven or hell, although I wish I did today. It seems totally unfair that he should die of natural causes at a ripe old age, surrounded by presumably loving family, with no "regrets".

edit: sp

[CGrantt57]

61. My mother always said...

You should say something good about the dearly departed.

He's departed - Good!

[Emendator]

66. I guess he's finally reached...

the light at the end of the tunnel.

[MnFats]

73. see his on-camera racist comments in "Hearts and Minds...hell, a dupe..

and a lot more; juxtaposed with a greiving Hanoi resident who's just found his daughter dead after a carpet-bombing run....

[Bake]

74. Have you been to The Wall?

56,000+ names. Imagine that number. That's a small city.

Going to The Wall was one of the most moving experiences I've ever had. Let your fingers trace the names engraved in granite. Each one had a family, a mother, a father, a wife, a loved one.

RIP, General. I don't see your name on The Wall. FIFTY SIX THOUSAND (plus) young men and women. Some of whom were my friends.

Bake