'I had to kill' boys, mom tells police ("Better off in heaven")

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-kidsdead22.html

DYER, Ind. -- Magdalena Lopez, a Dyer mother who told police she "had to kill" her children, was charged Thursday with two counts of murder.

Lopez, 30, has been in custody since Tuesday night, when police found the bloody bodies of Erik, 2, and Antonio Lopez, 9, in their home on Dyer's north side. snip

"I had to kill them," she is quoted as telling Cinko. "They're in a much better place now." snip

She could not take care of them any more and believed they would be better off in heaven, she told police.

[Tesha]

1. Religious insanity is insane no matter where inthe world it occurs (NT)

[Cerridwen]

2. I don't see "religion" involved here

from the article

"Neighbors and family members have said Lopez appeared depressed for months."

<snip>

"I had to kill them," she is quoted as telling Cinko. "They're in a much better place now."

<snip>

"She could not take care of them any more and believed they would be better off in heaven, she told police."

<snip>

I see extreme mental illness and no help for her. I can blame that on a lot of things; our health care system in crisis, a husband that may or may not have done anything to help or may or may not have been able to afford to help (the story doesn't say), her neighbors knew she had problems and we don't help our neighbors anymore, or did they try to help? The story doesn't say.

I see a lot of problems here. "Religion?" Not so much.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

5. Any road, they're still dead.

I didn't see where she claimed to have voices telling her to kill them.
The only role I see religion playing here is her belief that her boys went to heaven after she killed them.

I wonder why she felt that she couldn't care for them anymore? Was there no help available?

I thought *I* was DU's #1 "Anti-Theist", but I see I have just lost that distinction.

[RebelOne]

9. You are not alone. I am DU's #2 Anti-Theist. n/t

[ET Awful]

10. My point exactly John.

In this case religion was not a motivator, but an afterthought.

[progressivebydesign]

37. Not an afterthought... an before thought.

She believed that by killing her kids they would be with God, thereby justifying her horrific murder of her own kids. That is religiously insane, any way you look at it.

[Voltaire99]

52. Exactly. "Heaven" was her escape valve.

She could not take care of them any more and believed they would be better off in heaven, she told police.

Those romantics trying to avoid facing the role of religion in this crime should look closer.

This murder mom made a powerful rationalization: good ol' Jesus would look after her little ones after she dispatched them.

Now, if you told this woman there is no heaven and her babies' only lives are over, she'd reply that you are crazy.

In her hour of slaughter, faith comforted her--as indeed it has done for killers (both small and big) throughout history. There's a reason religion is commonly invoked in war, after all.

It helps with the wet work.

[salin]

6. Not necessarily in the sense of the cases

where depressed women were urged to pray rather than go for therapy.

But perhaps indirectly - in the sense of the belief in the afterlife and the sense of "sending" her children to that afterlife as a rationale for killing the children (so she could rationalize that her actions were "in their best interest.")

[donco6]

7. Heaven = Religion in most circles. eom

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[cubschicago]

15. It's been taken care of

[insane_cratic_gal]

16. Out of a cracker jackers box , of course!

Really it is matters of opinion and Case studies that lead me to draw that conclusion for myself. I'm not trying to force it down anyones throat, just my own experience and observations.

Now are all manics deeply religious? Not all, but they always have one deeply consuming passion that can sometimes also involve religion.

Religion could very well just be a coping mechanism for times when things become difficult, or the hour the darkest.

It's hard for me to not place these two together when we have a woman who kills her children to allow them to go to heaven because the world they live in is too hard.

Did she not console herself by assuring that they would be in a happier place?

Your problems? first off you like the cubs!! =)

[cubschicago]

20. .

[insane_cratic_gal]

17. Ok

also note i've been a DU for awhile myself thanks. I don't need you tell me about posting etiquette.

You got here in Oct. I got here in Nov

Care to take another crack at me?

[cubschicago]

18. .

[barb162]

23. I think you're right

It sounds like profound depression and manybe some other things....

[PurityOfEssence]

25. That's ridiculous

If she hadn't believed in eternal souls and paradise, she might have realized that she was KILLING them. To give people the "out" that this mortal plane is just some kind of unimportant audition is a huge problem.

Yes, depression and other insanity, and economic and social hardship can be a heady cocktail, but if the person beset with these doesn't also swallow some supernatural fantasy, that person might not KILL.

To say there's not much of a religious component in this is self-justifying and just another act of letting religion off the hook. It does some good things, but it provides the motivations and excuses for some AWFUL ones, and this is one of the latter.

Killing--as far as I can tell--is the total destruction of an individual; Christianity gives one an excuse for this, and that's a horrible thing to offer. Those who define religion as "good" tend to deny anything bad that it causes, and that's a form of denial that's abusive to society at large.

[ET Awful]

3. I don't know that this was "religious insanity."

I think it was plain old insanity. She didn't kill them because of religion, she just thinks that when someone dies they go to heaven.

Lots of people that aren't necessarily religious nutjobs think that folks go to heaven when they die. Lots of insane people believe in heaven but it isn't their religion that makes them insane, they would still be insane.

Odds are even without the "heaven" element, this woman was deranged enough she would have killed them anyway.

The motive was that she couldn't take care of them anymore, and that motive would have existed regardless of any religious references.

Don't immediately blame religion for this simply because there is a reference to religion

[Cerridwen]

8. You said it much better than I did up thread. Thanks. n/t

[melnjones]

21. Well stated, and thank you. nt

[megatherium]

11. This happened to a colleague of mine ten years ago.

His wife had depression, was on disability because of it. She killed their children and then took her own life. He came home for lunch that day and discovered this. As best as could be surmised, she had decided that her children were doomed (genetically) to suffer from depression as she did, and that by killing them she was doing them a kindness.

It is my understanding that when people are depressed the danger of suicide is greatest when they come out of a deep depressive episode, when the pain is still great but they have regained some ability to plan and execute actions. It is also the case that people who have depression can become delusional: I heard an interview of a writer on public radio once who described her delusion -- she believed that all the green plants of the world were dying, but only she seemed to be aware of this but she couldn't do anything about it. You don't need to hear voices (schizophrenia) to be delusional.

[ticapnews]

12. Oh sure, she's crazy...

But this guy was completely sane...

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

...

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where the lamb for a burnt offering?
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

How can we be certain this woman wasn't told by God to kill her children? Maybe she was supposed to stop at the last second, but the angel got held up in traffic or something and didn't get to her in time?

And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only from me.

Sounds like a reasonable defense to me...

:sarcasm:

[TahitiNut]

13. Well, the angel was obviously a fraud ...

... and the other descendants of Abraham are even now attempting to rectify Abraham's mistake by killing all the descendants of Isaac.

But, wait! Many are of the strong belief that it was not Isaac who escaped the pyre, but Ishmael. Thus, to correct this, the most egregious miscarriage of justice, they are committed to wiping out all of the descendants of Ishmael.

[IdaBriggs]

49. You are missing THE POINT of the story --

Which is that this is one of the first times in recorded human history where HUMAN SACRIFICE is STOPPED, and "a substitute" is deemed to be acceptable. This was a MAJOR turning point in the history of all peoples in the region. You can also read about this type of stuff in the story of "Gilgamesh" -- another piece of very old literature! :)

[pinniped]

19. John List also had to kill his famil.y.

[Bay Boy]

45. Who is John List?

sounds familiar

[LisaL]

50. The guy who killed his whole family.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/list/1.html

[Bay Boy]

53. I KNEW THAT NAME SOUNDED FAMILIAR!!!

He was form my hometown of Bay City MI!!!

His murderous rampage must have been carried in the Bay City Times because of that hometown connection.

[marbuc]

22. I knew a woman that did the same thing.

An elementary school friend of mine was killed by her mother because "she was better off in heaven." This woman was deeply depressed, but not necessarily fundie religious. In her mind she was sparing her daughter the pain and disappointment she was feeling.

[VegasWolf]

24. Here is another link to the story with video and pictures...

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_201070822.html

[WhiteTara]

26. Oh the tragedy of this

when do we get to jail these filthy "religious" leaders who preach vile propaganda. My favorite of their disgusting premises "the wages of sin is death". Shit, if that were true, chimpy would have died 10,000 times!

[melnjones]

28. What are you talking about...

Nothing about this news story says ANYTHING about religion. She said her kids are in heaven. Lots of people believe in heaven without having any religious affiliation. And the poor lady wasn't even mentally stable. Geez.

[LisaL]

32. She wasn't mentally stable? Who is?

If this was a man, they would be asking for a death penalty.

[Pithlet]

35. Women never get convicted of murder.

You're so right. We women have it sweet! :sarcasm:

[LisaL]

38. Oh please!

Deanna Laney killed her kids, she got off on an insanity defense. Even Andrea Yates' conviction got overturned. I bet his one would get off as insane as well.

[Pithlet]

43. I don't know about the Laney case

But Andrea Yates was clearly insane. Which is why the conviction was overturned. Not because she's a woman. That is your own little prejudice being interjected into your viewpoint. I said it before. The plural of anecdote is not data.

For crying out loud, this just happened. You don't know what's going to happen with this case any more than anyone else does.

[NNN0LHI]

44. Andrea Yates conviction was not overturned because she was insane

It was overturned because a prosecution witness provided false testimony.

Don

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/070605_APlocal_yates.html

<snip>Yates' convictions were overturned because a forensic psychiatrist provided false testimony that her lawyers say was pivotal in the jury's verdict.

Psychiatrist, Park Dietz, testified that an episode of the television program "Law and Order" that depicted a woman with postpartum depression who drowned her children and was found insane.

Dietz said it aired shortly before the deaths but such an episode never existed.

[LisaL]

46. Laney killed her children with rocks and said God told her to do

it. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

[PassingFair]

48. "Lots of people believe in heaven without having any religious

affiliation". Really?
Who would they be?
Or are you making a distinction between religious "affiliation" and religion?

[WhiteTara]

51. I can imagine that she was very mentally unstable

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

27. How sad.

Though the neighbors knew there were problems, and it appears that they were a part of the community, how could the neighbors have predicted that she would kill her own children? People generally care about people in distress, but when you try to walk the line between helping people get help and being nosy, there are times when sadly circumstances spiral out of control. This seems to be one such time. :(

[hallc]

29. So Tom Cruise...

Still think giving people anti-depressants is a bad thing? Ugh. These stories make me so sad. I have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, and with that comes very bad obsessions - ones in which you think about hurting family members...now granted, I am highly medicated and haven't felt those feelings in a long time...but I remember how bad they were when i was just 8 years old and how scared I was when i felt them. This poor woman most likely had a severe mental disease that probably could have been taken care of with medication, had she sought the correct help. Whether she did or not, I don't know. Its a sad, sad, story in any case, and I bet she won't get the help she needs in an institution...rather they'll send her right to prison. For a country that has come so far in medical research in other diseases, we desperatly need more in the area of mental health to see why these things happen.

[Disturbed]

30. Wishing Ma Bush was...

a wak Fundie.

[Joan of Arc]

33. "So Tom Cruise"

I agree with you, and my heart goes out to you for your suffering as a child. This is a terrible, terrible tragedy. And it has nothing to do with religion. This woman was very sick. I can't imagine what it must be like to be so desperate that you really think you're doing the right thing by killing your children. There was a woman in my area here in NOVA that tried to kill her two young children before she jumped out of a window in her home. And this was a nice neighborhood (mental illness doesn't discriminate).

I hope this woman gets the help she needs.

[annabanana]

54. thank you for telling your story

The more people that let us know what's the real story, the better equipped we are to see that people get the treatment they need.
Welcome to DU, :hi:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Pithlet]

34. What a load

Women are convicted of killing their own children all the time, and sometimes even get the death penalty. The insanity plea isn't just for women, and women aren't the only ones who use it sucessfully. Please.

[LisaL]

36. Yea, sure...

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
Most of the comments I read here say poor thing needs help. If this was a man, you would be wanting to put him into an electric chair this very minute. If a father murdered his two kids, I wonder how many here would be saying poor thing needs help.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

39. You're right lizzy. It's absolutely true..

..women are treated differently, and there have been cases of women who killed their kids and got lesser punishment because they were 1. religious and 2. depressed. Some people are allergic to facts.

[Pithlet]

41. Facts

The only cases that I know of where women got arguably less sentences were cases where the woman was clearly suffering from some sort of mental illness. I wasn't aware that it was a liberal value to ignore the fact that some people are not in their right mind when they commit a crime. Unless you can show statistical evidence that women actually are treated differently than men in these cases, you're not talking about facts. You're spewing your own prejudice. The singular of data is not anectdote, and facts cannot be replaced with your own preconceived notions. So, if you have evidence, present it.

Same goes for Lizzy.

[LisaL]

47. Exactly. Marcus Wesson killed 9 kids and got a death penalty.

If that was Marcia Wesson, would she have gotten a death penalty? And I am happy Marcus Wesson got the death penalty, he clearly deserves it. But why when a mother kills her kids, so many react "poor thing needs help", but when a father kills his kids, people want to fry him?

[Pithlet]

40. Not only are you proficient with roll eye smilies

You're capable of reading minds through the internet.

Oooh. Spooky.

[Pithlet]

42. Oh, and see post 41. n/t

[d_b]

55. 'Better off in heaven'

How long before that's a talking point for the war?