In Saddam's birthplace, fond memories of Uday and Qusay

[Barrett808]

In Saddam's birthplace, fond memories of Uday and Qusay
Awjah, Iraq (AFP) - Villagers of the town where former dictator

Saddam Hussein was born said they retain fond memories of his slain sons Uday and Qusay, but had good reasons for not going to pay their respects on the second anniversary of their deaths.

"We could not go (to the cemetery), because we are afraid that the Americans have installed invisible cameras to pick us out and then arrest us," said Ahmed al-Khattab, a cousin of the Hussein family.

Hajj Saad Khraimus said he could not visit for health reasons.

"I am handicapped and ill. I can't go to their graves, but I ask God to take pity on them and shelter them in paradise."

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050722/wl_mideast_afp/iraqudayqusay

Delusion isn't the exclusive province of the Bush mafia.

[dArKeR]

1. Saddam's grandson who was with them when Bush - Warning Graphic

Saddam's grandson who was with them when Bush ordered them killed. It was known that the children were with their father and uncle. Remember this was NOT hot pursuit. An informer told American forces where they were. The American forces had this house surrounded for hours. Bush had to be notified and gave the kill order.

[vickie]

3. This is really disgusting and sick - as were Saddam's two sons.

They were cruel, depraved despicable sadists, just like their father. They deserved what happened to them. This is the kind of thing that the right and the press use to demonize and misrepresent our view of things.

[vickie]

4. This is really disgusting and sick - as were Saddam's two sons.

They were cruel, depraved despicable sadists, just like their father. They deserved what happened to them. This is the kind of thing that the right and the press use to demonize and misrepresent our view of things.

[Tinoire]

6. Thank you for remembering and for countering the right wing drivel

of idiots who support and condone the disgusting bloodlust of their inarticulate fuhrer as he kills innocent children.

[geek tragedy]

7. And they weren't shooting at the US forces, were they?

And I'm sure the US forces never asked them to surrender. And I'm sure they made every effort to get any and all children out.

Because, when it's US soldiers and Uday and Qusay involved in a fight, everyone KNOWS that the only monsters are the US soldiers, who deserve all of the blame.

:sarcasm:

[NNN0LHI]

10. Yes, and the US forces were hot on the trail of tons and tons of WMDs

:hi:

[Kraklen]

11. Uday and Qusay sure got what they had coming.

After they pulled those Kuwaiti babies off of life support.

[geek tragedy]

12. Oh dear me. People rushing to defend the honor of a couple

of vicious psychopaths.

Sorry, but I have a new policy of not debating people who think that Saddam, Uday, and Qusay were okay guys.

Toodles.

[Kraklen]

14. Where are you getting that idea?

I said they had it coming for taking those poor babies off of life support.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. So many lies have been fed to us by the NeoCons, I'm surprised....

...that anyone beleves anything that they've told us so far.

Of course, there are always a few that will continue to blindly accept the NeoCon propaganda no matter what.

[CONN]

44. Good point!

[bitchkitty]

58. What are you on about?

I haven't seen anyone defend them. You seem to jump to conclusions as a rule.

[Astarho]

64. You do know

the "Kuwaiti babies" story was made up right?

[geek tragedy]

65. I believe that is the point several folks are making.

They are unwilling to believe anything bad they hear about Saddam and his hellspawn sons--because they're Bush's enemies.

[geek tragedy]

13. The WMD's were fake. Uday and Qusay's status as disgusting thugs is

real.

[NNN0LHI]

15. The Iraqi "drones of death" were real too

[geek tragedy]

17. Well, you keep on defending their legacy then.

You'll have to excuse me, though, because I just don't have the stomach to hear people try to rehabilitate the reputations of fascist murderers.

Toodles.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Quite an imagination there

People who continue to parrot Bush's (who is by the way a real murderer) lies for invading Iraq make me laugh. Those people really need to get a life.

As for me when I catch someone in one lie after another I reserve the right to discount everything they have said previously or in the future. If some people wants to believe everything that Bush and his intelligence agencies say that is their problem.

Don

[moddemny]

29. Because someone is not a fan of,,,,,,

Uday or Qusay they are parroting Bush adminstration rhetoric?

Whoa..... this is getting delusional.

It was common knowledge they were thugs, brutes, muderers, the lowest scum of the earth way before Bush came to power.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. "Common knowledge" or long-term propaganda used...

...as part of the plan to get the American people ready for a war with Iraq?

[moddemny]

52. Common knowledge........

...... when someone commits the kind of the unspeakable acts Uday and Qusay have, the story spreads and is corroborated by the victims and those who witnessed the crimes.

[NNN0LHI]

56. Read post # 55 and get back to me. Common knowledge? Pfffffft n/t

[Psephos]

72. Check out post #61 (by a moderator) and get back to me. n/t

[moddemny]

73. I read your posts.........

....... (not just 55, the others also) and I have heard these arguments before. I know the incubator stories were PR that doesnt mean other horror stories about Uday or Qusay aren't true. I can post the links, dig up the articles, etc. but it would be a waste of time. If I do post them many people here are just going to say I am spouting Neocon propaganda and I am some kind of bush-lite, repub-lite, etc. The last three elections I voted Clinton, Gore, Kerry and I have protested against Bush many times. If you are out to defend Uday or Qusay that doesn't make me a neocon it makes you something close to the stereotypical caricature of the far left of which I noticed there are quite a few here (a vocal minority hopefully) on DU. If that gets me banned for saying it I don't care, I'm not going to circumscribe my thoughts. Uday and Qusay were scum and I can't see why people are going out of there way here to defend them. I thank some of the other more rational posters in this thread for speaking out against this insanity.

[saigon68]

74. the lowest scum of the earth IS Bush WHEN HE SEIZED power.

get your facts right

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Thanks, Don.

I'd lost my picture of the dreaded UAV. Now safely back in it's image folder.


:thumbsup:

[pinniped]

76. That's the FD102.1 variant with the 20,000km range.

Did they mount those engineering marvels in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum yet?

[lumpy]

23. And Bush's lies were very real geek,

you know, all that stuff about mushroom clouds, yellow cake, WMDs, emminent attack. All those lies that led to the bombing of Iraq that killed scores of innocent people and led the bulk of the world to distrust and despise the US. None of us mourn the deaths of Saddam's sons. We might question the lack of US dignity in how their bodies were displayed and the glee exhibited by soulless people. We as a people have lost a lot by the actions of this corrupt administration. We have lost credibility, integrity, friends/allies, lives, and self respect thanks to the bloodlust of this administration. I am shamed that this nation has sunk so low. You can't defend The indefensible actions of a few the likes of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the corrupt designers of this attempt to overcome the very heart and soul of America.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Right. Bwahahahaha!!!

[RadiDem]

9. That graphic kicks ass ! Bravo !

[Herkdrvr]

21. This is exactly the stuff that turns people away from the DNC

The kid who was killed along with Uday and Qusay was firing automatic rifle rounds at US soldiers, who had surrounded the house and had tried many times to get the inhabitants to surrender.

When they finally entered the house, they were fired upon. I don't know about you, but if I'm being shot at with a 7.62MM automatic rifle, I'm going to shoot back if I can. For whatever reason you seem to imply that it would have been better if we had lost a few dozen soldiers trying to tackle this kid who had been instructed to mow down any US troops he saw.

What is truly tragic isn't that US soldiers tried to get them to lay down their arms and ultimately had to take them by force...but the fact that Hussein's world was one in which children were trained to fire machine guns.

I am not posting this because I agree or disagree with any particular points about the war...but I crave some kind of political balance in this country, and we don't have it. Cheap-shot dirty politics such as this is slowly leading our country into a political hell. And I am well aware that the "other" side does it too. So spare me that lecture. But if you're gonna complain about the other side doing it, then how about you be the adult and take the high road for once.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. Hmmmm. I thought a missile was fired into that house, and they were...

...killed instantly.

Gee...what NeoCon version did you get?

And by the way, spare us the crying jag about how you don't like what's being posted. Get used to it, because a LOT more is coming!

"Political hell"?? You reap what you sow, and the NeoCons have sown plenty.

[navvet]

2. They were bad people who deserved the death

they got.

May they rot in paradise.

Also your picture and comments about the first lady were in real bad taste.

You cheapen our side with infantile screeds like that.

[NNN0LHI]

5. "first lady"? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. That ain't no lady

You sure no how to drag them out of the woodwork dArKeR. Keep up the good job.

Don

[RadiDem]

8. She ain't nothin but a murdering coke and weed dealing two-bit whore !

and that's being kind

[Kraklen]

16. Laura killed a guy.

She got away with it.

[lumpy]

22. And Bush is a good person

for bombing the hell out of Iraq, killing thousand of innocent people.
Do you think he should rot in paradise?

[CONN]

45. And you know BAD how?

My guess is what you think you know you learned via the media. But who feed the media?

[dArKeR]

19. Why wasn't the #1 priority to capture them to find the where WMD are?

If anyone would know they would. Plus tons of other Top Secret stuff... I'm looking for the original pics published by CNN, MSNBC... You could clearly see American soldiers milling around, talking, leaning on Humvees, smoking... Instead of firing TOE missiles it would have been so easy to shoot in sleeping gas or tear gas.

Did you guys really forget those pics?

[daleo]

20. The number one Bush priority is "leave no witnesses"

There must never be a trial. There must never be cross examination. There must never be due process. I don't know how Saddam slipped the noose - he must still have something on Bush.

It looks like Blair has caught the disease now.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. give daleo a kewpie doll

[bluestateguy]

24. This is not a priority for me

I'm not going to do a bunch of frat boy rah-rahing for their deaths, but they also kind of had it coming. Uday and Qusay were thugs and killers, and I don't have time to weep for them.

I weep for the innocent victims of this war in Iraq and the almost 1800 US troops killed.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. People in Stalin's birthplace still think he great, too.

Myth and personality cult can do a lot to distort peoples' perceptions of reality...

[Robb]

26. And Hitler was good to his mother... n/t

[Igel]

28. I had a Russian exchange professor once

who, when talking about Stalin, went on and on as to how great he was. All the reports of GULags, divvying up Poland, killing innocent doctors, etc., were calumnies. She went all weepy when she talked about his death, and how she and her mother stood in line to see him in his coffin, and ended with tears running down her face. This was in 1989.

[lumpy]

30. I knew an Italian war bride

who thought Mussolini was the tops, "did a lot of good for the country". Met a few Russians also who thought the USSR was working better than what they have now ( they may be right). I imagine many Iraqis wish Saddam was back running the country. You think? The state of Denial is a comforting place to be, I guess. And then we have a lot of people in the US who believe the Bush administration can do no wrong. Go figure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. People stood in line to see Nixon and Reagan. too.

[iamjoy]

57. Well Said, And A Lesson For Us

we consider Saddam & sons brutal sadists. I would agree.

However, there are places where Saddam & sons are heroes and we (the U.S.) are brutal murdering thugs.

People find justification for what they do. I am sure when Saddam Hussien fed dissdents feet first through a shredder, it was justified in his mind. There are many in this country who justify our sometimes brutal actions in the war on terror.

Sometimes, strong action is necessary. I wish the most liberal faction understood this. It is only when we are too quick to dismiss or justify brutalities that we risk becoming like *them* I wish the neo-cons understood this.

(that is why we need to honestly debate our actions and policies, without calling each other names like "terrorist loving/America hating Liberal" and "Facsist, baby killing Neo-Con")

[vogonjiltz]

32. They were shits,

Saddams sons were murderers and rapists, the grandson would have only grown up, I don't think we should have invaded, but I don't feel bad about the Husein family.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vogonjiltz]

38. I don't think I said anything about supporting the invasion...

I just don't feel bad about deaths of those three.

[geek tragedy]

39. Didn't you get the memo?

You can't be both anti-war and anti-Saddam. If you think that Saddam and his hellspawn were horrible people guilty of despicable crimes, you MUST be an evil Neocon Republican Bush-loving warmonger.

"The enemy of Bush deserves my support" is a mantra with an unfortunate level of support around here.

[vogonjiltz]

41. Damn, I guess I didn't,

coulf you forward me a copy?

[geek tragedy]

42. I can't tell, because about half the posts on this thread are from

people on my "Ignore" list, but I imagine that a copy is available for your perusal.

[CONN]

46. You so sure

Then you go to Iraq and kill these evil people. What makes you so sure anyhow. Watching TV news?

[Trajan]

40. Im Sorry MLD ....

But your insistence that those who criticise the sons of Saddam Hussien are somehow expressing Neocon or 'conservative' sentiments really goes beyond the pale .... your barbs against your fellow DUers are pure abusive ad hominem attacks ...

I am a proud liberal humanist ... I despise ANTIhuman behavior of ALL types : that which is caused by the current party in power here, AND that which is caused by others anywhere else ...

There is good cause to believe that the sons of Saddam WERE monsters ... That their treatment of their own countrymen, specifically those on Iraq's national sports teams, was cruel beyond measure ....

It should be noted that neocons can be wrong while, SIMULTANEOUSLY, other men in other lands can commit horrible crimes against humanity .... and it should be noted that such events do NOT have to necessarily correspond with each other ..... it is quite possible for the Neocons to be lying assholes AND for the sons of Saddam Hussien to be inhumane thugs AT THE SAME TIME ....

In other words: just because the neocons were liars doesnt mean that EVERY claim mde agains Uday and Qusay were false ....

To Wit: a story from Sports Illustrated 'supposedly' reporting the testimony of an Iraqi.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/?cnn=yes


Son of Saddam

As Iraq's top Olympic official, Uday Hussein is accused of the torture and murder of athletes who fail to win


By Don Yaeger

As he stood at the double-door entrance to the office of Iraqi National Olympic Committee president Uday Hussein, the boxer knew what awaited on the other side. He had just returned from a Gulf States competition, where he had been knocked out in the first round. Now it was time to pay the price.

A former double for Uday says Iraq's Olympic programs have been destroyed since Saddam gave his son control in 1984 and the brutal punishment of athletes began. Inside the yellow-and-blue office, Uday, the older of Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's two sons, paced the floor, waving his expensive Cuban cigar and glaring out the floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking Baghdad. "He was yelling about how Iraq should not be embarrassed by its athletes," recalls Latif Yahia, employed for nearly five years as Uday's body double -- he would stand in for Uday on occasions that were deemed a security threat -- and one of his closest associates to have escaped to the West. "He kept saying, 'This is my Iraq. Embarrassing Iraq embarrasses me.'"

With a wave of Uday's arm the manacled boxer was led into the room by Iraqi secret service. Sitting behind a dark wood desk beneath an oversized portrait of himself, Uday began his tirade. "In sport you can win or you can lose. I told you not to come home if you didn't win." His voice rising, he walked around the desk and gave the boxer a lesson. "This is how you box," he screamed as he threw a left and a right straight to the fighter's face. Blood dribbled from the athlete's nose as Uday launched another round of punches. Then, using the electric prod he was famous for carrying, Uday jolted the boxer in the chest.

Blood was streaming from a cut above the boxer's eye when Uday ordered his guards to fetch a straight razor. The boxer cried out as Uday held the razor to his throat, and as he moved the blade to the fighter's forehead, Uday laughed. He then shaved the man's eyebrows, an insult to Muslim males. "Take him downstairs and finish the job," Uday screamed.

Says Yahia, "They took him to the basement of the Olympic building. It has a 30-cell prison where athletes -- and anyone else who is out of favor with Uday -- are beaten and tortured. That was the last I ever heard of that boxer."

-snip-

Now, I have never sucked up the stories presented by the Neocon saturated media without considering the likelihood that such stories might be pure propaganda .... and it is surely possible that THESE stories are propaganda .... but frankly: I have seen no absolute refutation of this story, nor has this particular testimonial been SPECIFICALLY discredited by ANY one, as far as I know ...

Are YOU prepared, this moment, to refute this story ? ...

Can YOU, this moment, provide STRONG evidence, other than cynicism or doubt, that THIS testimonial is false ? ...

Im sorry MLD, but even though I respect you in general; your attacks on your fellow DUers who condemn Uday and Qusay for their apparently monstrous behavior goes beyond reason and fairness ....

IF they were NOT the monsters some claim they were, then by ALL MEANS show that here ..... PLEASE rehabilitate the sons of Saddam Hussien here and now, and let us DUers who despise the very notion of their alleged barbarism apologize to you and to the others here who jeer and hector us for believing this testimony .....

The contempt you are expressing to your fellow DUers MAY be justified, so feel free to justify it now ....

REFUTE the stories of Uday and Qusay, and show how they maintained a decent respect for humanity by NOT committing these horrific crimes, and you shall receive my humblest apology ....

Otherwise: apologies are in order, I believe ....

[CONN]

47. Thanks for sharing...

So someone (probably another cousin of Ahmad Chalabi) says of of Sadam's sons was a monster. Good thing they got them and the rest of the gene pool.

Boy I hope no one ever falsely says you're a bad guy:)
I have no idea whether these guys were good/bad. And don't care - we have no business there. We have worse here.

[Trajan]

49. Um .... this is NOT Chalabi .....

And unless you can provide some decent evidence that refutes this story, then you basically have nothing ....

I will NEVER defend invading Iraq because of Saddam OR his sons, nor do I condone the execution of anyone ....

But to simply deny these claims without basis is foolish and myopic ....

[Lithos]

61. Not to refute your story

But to add other sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein

Although his status as Saddam Hussein's eldest son once made him the prospective successor to his father, Uday fell out of favor with Saddam for his extravagance and recklessness. In October 1988, at a party thrown in the honor of the wife of President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Uday beat and stabbed to death his father's personal valet and food taster, Kemal Hana Gegeo. Gegeo had recently introduced Saddam to a beautiful, younger woman, Samira Shahbandar, who later became Saddam's second wife. Uday took this as an insult to his mother (his father's first cousin). While drunk, Uday carried out the murder coolly and coldly, bludgeoning Gegeo repeatedly in front of horrified guests before finishing him off with a steak knife. Mubarak later called Uday a "psychopath."

As punishment for the murder, Hussein briefly imprisoned his son. As a result of personal intervention from King Hussein of Jordan, Hussein released Uday, banishing him to Switzerland as the assistant to the Iraqi ambassador there. He was expelled by the Swiss government after he threatened to stab someone in a restaurant.

[NNN0LHI]

62. Nice story. Here's a bit more from Latif Yahia you may find interesting?

I am sorry Trajan but you are basing your opinions on what an admitted madman has said in his book.

Don

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=799742003

Body double needs to see proof that Uday is dead

TRACEY LAWSON


LATIF Yahia can see the ghost of Uday Hussein simply by glancing in the mirror. Reflected in the glass are the thick eyebrows, broad-planed cheeks and full lips of Saddam’s eldest son. snip

After four and a half years as Uday’s double, Yahia attempted suicide by slitting his wrists, no longer able to cope with his self-loathing at what his life had become. snip

"Uday ruined my life," he said yesterday. "I was mad when I arrived in this country, but counselling has helped.

"Don’t tell me that the US could not have taken him alive," he comments on the 200- soldier operation which took Uday and Qusay’s lives. "But the Americans did not want this because if you put these people in the dock, they would tell everyone that a lot of what they did they did because the American agents told them to."

The Devil’s Double, Latif Yahia’s account of his years with Uday Saddam Hussein, is published by Arrow at £7.99.

[Trajan]

66. My issue was with DUers insulting other DUers ....

based on what is generally known about Uday's and Qusay's inhumane character .... I am NOT justifying their killing ...

THAT is a different question .... one which I am not defending ....

Uday and Qusay were murderous criminals, but street executions are not justified ...

The fact that US forces took that course of action doesnt change the fact tht Uday and Qusay were murderers ....

To say they were murderers doesnt mean one agrees with Bush and the Neocons ..... THAT is my point ....

[NNN0LHI]

67. You demanded an apology from a fellow DUer over the word of a madman

You know you were lied to about Iraq countless times by people who they themselves have turned out to be murderous thugs. But this one story about Hussein's sons just must be true you say. It don't work that way in the real world. When I am lied to over and over again by my own government it tends to make me and I believe any normal person skeptical of other information coming from that same source. You want to continue being lied to by the same people be my guest. Just don't be acting all surprised and expecting any apologies when someone calls you on it. That is my point.

Don

[Trajan]

69. Excuse me ? ...

So you are saying that Uday AND Qusay NEVER had committed such crimes ? ...

Look: I dont give a FUCK about nearly anything else, other than humanity treating itself with dignity ... The humanist impulse drives all else ...

IF you are willing to commit here and now and say without a doubt;

Uday and Qusay did NOT maim, murder or torture anyone ...

Then you have earned my sincerest apology ....

Heck, maybe I will JOIN you as you slash and burn your fellow DUers ! ....

SO; ... say it: Say "Uday and Qusay have never committed ANY of the atrocities attributed to them by ANY source" ...

Say that: and I will eat Crow Salad here and now ....

Otherwise: there are more sources regarding these two fiends other than that one person ....

When it comes to inhumanity against our fellow human beings, we had better be sure whom we condemn, and whom we defend .... Saying someone is a 'madman' doesnt necessarily refute every utterance from their mouths .... There is enough stink around these two princes to reasonably implicate them .... You act as is this man is the only source ...

Are you willing to accept the implication of extreme inhumanity in your own hatred of a particular political group that you disagree with ? ...

I am not .... Bush is not the only animal in the jungle ....

Go ahead and state UNEQUIVOCALLY that Uday and Qusay are utterly blameless in these alleged acts, and I will prepare the crow ...

[NNN0LHI]

70. You should already be eating crow

I am still waiting for you to admit the mistake of quoting the words of a self described madman written in a 4 dollar paperback novel as fact.

Perhaps after you do that I will feel assured that I'm dealing rationally with you on this subject. Right now I am not so sure.

All the rest of the baiting crap in your post is meaningless bullshit to me at this point. See ya.

Don

[Trajan]

71. Ive cooked the crow ....

But I havent a taste for it this eve, thanks .... but as usual, I am willing to offer it for free to anyone who thinks they would like some ....

To wit:

From Amnesty International's website: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE140101999

IRAQ

Victims of Systematic Repression

-snip-

Until 1996 Amnesty International had received reports of hundreds of individuals who had been subjected to such punishments. For example, at the end of 1996 'Abd al-Nafi' Mohammad (family name not known), single and originally from Tal 'Afar town, north of Baghdad, a member of the security staff at the headquarters of Iraq's National Olympic Committee, headed by 'Uday Saddam Hussain, had his right hand amputated in front of many staff members following an order from 'Uday Saddam Hussain. The reason was that some sports equipments were stolen from a warehouse and he was accused of being responsible since he was on duty as security guard outside the building. Despite his repeated plea of innocence the amputation was carried out without trial. Three weeks later it turned out that the equipment had not been stolen and was found in another warehouse. 'Uday Saddam Hussain reportedly ordered a compensation of 500,000 Iraqi Dinars (around $ 300) for 'Abd al-Nafi' Mohammad.

Amputations were very often publicized in Iraqi media outlets. However, since the end of 1996 following international condemnation of these punishments, reports of amputations being carried out in Iraq have rarely been publicized in Iraq. In August 1998 six members of the Feda'yi Saddam (Saddam's Fighters) reportedly had their hands amputated by order of 'Uday Saddam Hussain. They were said to have been accused of theft and extortion from travellers in the southern city of Basra.

Amnesty International had publically called on the Iraqi Government to abolish the penalties of amputation and branding and to provide compensation for all victims, or for families of victims. In November 1997 the UN Human Rights Committee expressed deep concern that Iraq ''has resorted to the imposition of cruel, inhuman and degrading punishments, such as amputation and branding, which are incompatible with Article 7 of the Covenant '' and urged that such punishments be ceased immediately.(22) The Committee recommended that ''a thorough review of existing temporary laws and decrees be undertaken with a view to ensuring their compliance with the provisions of the Covenant''.(23)

-snip-


Note that the name of the victim is NOT 'LATIF Yahia', this supposedly 'crazy man' whom you continually degrade as being a "madman" ....

As an aside: This Latif Yahia ... How do you know he is a "madman" ? ... do you have access to his medical records ? ... Have you spoken with a board certified psychiatrist who has knowledge of a first hand diagnosis of Mr. Yahia ? ... Do you have access to ANY specific, reliable information that Mr. Yahia is suffering from a specific mental disorder ? ... What was the diagnosis ? ... Who gave it and on what date ? ...

I dont suppose you have THAT information handy, do you ? ...

I would posit that MANY human beings suffer from a variety of neurotic and/or psychotic pathologies, as I would also posit that most human beings are incapable of executing a reliable diagnosis of their own psychological pathologies ...

Given that: Are you prepared to accept Mr. Yahia's self diagnosis of his own mental state as fact ? .... Could you reliably conclude that such a person, who might in fact suffer from such a pathology, could give an accurate and academically valid self diagnosis without possessing any specific backround or training in the field of psychiatry ? .... I would posit it is FOOLHARDY to accept such a statement as fact, without having a rational, clinical basis for that specific diagnosis ...... Mr. Yahia saying "I was mad when I arrived in this country, but counselling has helped." does NOT form a valid diagnosis of Mr. Yahia's mental state ...

Anyone who says so it does is blowing smoke ..... etc ........

AGAIN: Mr. Yahia is NOT the same person as 'Abd al-Nafi' Mohammad ..... Are you prepared to state that al-Nafi is also a "madman" ? ...

IS EVERY person who claims Uday Saddam Hussein is an awful human being also a 'madman' ? .... Can you support that assertion with solid science ? ... or is it just a hunch ? ....


Now: Who else that is NOT Mr. Yahia, the 'self described madman', has also provided insight into Uday's vicious personality ?? ....

Is there ANY sane man who is willing to go out on a limb and criticize a vicious prince ? .... ( NOT that princes have ever been mean or nasty human beings, historically speaking ... right ? ) ...


From that well known Neocon rats nest: PBS Frontline ..... (/sarcasm)

Uday Saddam Hussein: The Second-Most Feared Man in Iraq

-snip-

In recent years, numerous Iraqi journalists and editors have defected, bringing out stories of a much darker side of Uday, a side that doesn't show up in the public image he has carefully cultivated inside Iraq. These sources describe an Uday who is every bit as brutal a tyrant as his father. One of the defectors is Abbas al-Janabi, Uday's press secretary for 15 years. Al-Janabi has reported that torture and abuse are commonly employed against anyone who crosses Uday's orders and that Saddam's eldest son owns several private prisons, including one in the Olympic Committee Building where he punishes athletes for poor performances.

Uday also has a reputation as a playboy, a drunk and a killer. He earned the notoriety for murder in 1988 when he stormed a party and attacked one of his father's bodyguards. According to one account, in front of the Egyptian president's wife and other foreign dignitaries, Uday first attacked the man with an electric knife, then shot him twice with his pistol, killing him on the spot. The murdered bodyguard had been in charge of providing Saddam with mistresses, and Uday reportedly blamed him for introducing his father to Samira Shabandar, who became Saddam's second wife.

Relatives also have been targets of Uday's rage, from his first wife, who was described at the end of their three-month marriage as being "half black and blue;" to an uncle (and Iraq's former interior minister), who had to have a leg amputated after Uday shot him at a family gathering. In his drunken fits, Uday is said to frequently bring out his guns, to the extent that numerous Baghdad parties he has attended have reportedly ended in a hail of bullets.

-snip-

So, Now al-Janabi is a madman ? ...

The Egyptian president's wife and numerous 'foreign dignitaries' are ALSO madmen ? ....

Is EVERYONE who is does not absolutely adore Uday Hussein crazy as bedbugs ? ... Cmon .....

Do you understand how self centered this assertion is ? ... MANY who has been close to Uday have returned these horror stories, which you claim are the rantings of madness, but YOU, little old you, are ready to condemn all of those people, and present your OWN view as the only valid viewpoint; that Uday could NOT have possibly committed these maimings or murders ? ... that ANYONE who says otherwise is crazy ? ...

This is absurd ..... patently absurd ....

Another cite from the SI story : http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/

Son of Saddam


As Iraq's top Olympic official, Uday Hussein is accused of the torture and murder of athletes who fail to win


-snip-

"Saddam's plan didn't work," says Issam Thamer al-Diwan, a former Iraqi volleyball player who now lives in the United States and carries a list of 52 athletes he claims have been murdered by the Hussein family. "Iraqi sports are worse today than ever. Our teams used to win. There was much pride in playing for your country. But Uday never understood pride, only fear. He was never an athlete. He thought he could use his father's sadistic approach to improve performance. He has failed."

-snip-

Uday's penchant for violence has long been an open secret among international athletic officials. Amnesty International reported in 2001 that Uday had ordered the hand of a security officer at his Olympic headquarters to be chopped off five years earlier, after the man was accused of stealing sports equipment that was missing (but later turned up). In 1997 FIFA, the governing body of world soccer, sent two investigators to Baghdad to question members of the Iraqi national team who'd allegedly had their feet caned by Uday's henchmen after losing a World Cup qualifying match to Kazakhstan. The investigators spoke only to people whom Uday had selected. The result: a report exonerating Uday.

"Did the torture of those players happen?" asks Sharar Haydar, a longtime Iraqi soccer star who participated in 40 international matches for the national team and was a teammate of many of the victims. "Absolutely. But when you interview athletes who are under Uday's control, what else do you expect them to say?

"I know what they went through," adds Haydar, who escaped from Iraq in 1998 and now lives in London. "I was tortured four times after matches. One time, after a friendly against Jordan in Amman that we lost 2-0, Uday had me and three teammates taken to the prison. When we arrived, they took off our shirts, tied our feet together and pulled our knees over a bar as we lay on our backs. Then they dragged us over pavement and concrete, pulling the skin off our backs. Then they pulled us through a sandpit to get sand in our backs. Finally, they made us climb a ladder and jump into a vat of raw sewage. They wanted to get our wounds infected. The next day, and for every day we were there, they beat our feet. My punishment, because I was a star player, was 20 per day. I asked the guard how he could ever forgive himself. He laughed and told me if he didn't do this, Uday would do it to him. Uday made us athletes an example. He believed that if people saw he was not afraid to beat a hero, that they would live in greater fear."

Ahmed Kadoim, a FIFA-recognized referee who fled Iraq in December, tells a similar tale of torture at Uday's hands after he refused to fix a soccer game last May. "I was the referee of a match between Al-Shorta and the club of the air force," Kadoim says. "I was told that Shorta should win, but I refused to fix the match. It ended at 2-2. I was taken by Uday's men to Al-Radwaniya prison, where they used hoses and a cane to beat me three times a day. My punishment was 10 beatings each time. When I was bleeding, they forced me into a pool of sewage. The guards laughed and said, 'You should have let them win.' I still am in pain nearly a year later."

-snip-

So:

Issam Thamer al-Diwan ???

Sharar Haydar ???

Ahmed Kadoim ???

Amnesty International ???

Abbas al-Janabi ???

Frontline ???


ALL are madmen and/or neocon liars ? ... But YOU alone protect the dignity of truth ? ...

You protect that truth by insulting us ? .... by presenting outlandishly pedestrian assertions just before publically hectoring us ? ...

Honestly .. the nerve of some people ......

Don ? ... take the crow ... and nosh in private ....

I respect you immensely, but trying to smack around your fellow DUers by saying, essentially, 'But HE said he was a madman', is ridiculously superficial to the extreme ....

I have NEVER opined that the alleged brutality of Saddam or his sons was suitable cause for invading ancient Mesopotamia ... Nor have I opined that is was right to kill them ....

But Ill be DAMNED if I'll ignore THEIR essential inhumanity, their maimings and murders, their animalistic and base urges, just because you chose to present fallacies as an argument .... non sequitur and ad hominem to be precise ....

There is AMPLE and REASONABLE cause to believe that Uday was a inhumane monster of ghastly proportions ... a typical oriental prince in the ancient mold .... The number of 'sane' witnesses are overwhelming ....

Simplistic and superficial apologism will not rehabilitate this apparently justifiable image of Uday .... and for you to use this ineffective gambit as cause for insulting your fellow DUers is ......

Well, lets just say it is unworthy of your great reputation ....

[Trajan]

43. Amnesty International condemns Uday Hussien for Torture ....

AGAIN from the SI story : http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/?cnn=yes

-snip-

"Uday's penchant for violence has long been an open secret among international athletic officials. Amnesty International reported in 2001 that Uday had ordered the hand of a security officer at his Olympic headquarters to be chopped off five years earlier, after the man was accused of stealing sports equipment that was missing (but later turned up). In 1997 FIFA, the governing body of world soccer, sent two investigators to Baghdad to question members of the Iraqi national team who'd allegedly had their feet caned by Uday's henchmen after losing a World Cup qualifying match to Kazakhstan. The investigators spoke only to people whom Uday had selected. The result: a report exonerating Uday. "

-snip-

SO: Amnesty International had condemned Uday for his 'alleged' barbarism ? .... Do THEY cast about such assertions on behalf of Bush and his Neocon minions ?

Cmon .....

The FACT is: Bush and his asshole friends are a bunch of lying thugs .... AND Saddam Hussein and HIS asshole sons are a bunch of lying thugs .... How can you condemn one but not the other ? ...

WHERE is the consistent sentiment against INHUMANE action everywhere ? ...

I DESPISE Bush, and I DESPISE Saddam Hussein ....

To insist that one MUST disagree with one or support the other is a bifurcation fallacy, and pretty damned mean spirited to boot .....

One CAN despise this war AND despise the inhumane actions by the dynastic princes of modern Mesopotamia ..... at the same time ....

MANY apologies are in order here ....

[CONN]

48. Justifying their execution?

[Trajan]

50. WHO is justifying their execution ? ....

I object to those who INSULT our friends here .... I am NOT defending anyone's execution .....

Yet another fallacious assertion .....

[CONN]

54. It was a question...

Not insulting just wish you'd give it more thought... Amnesty International is not always right:)

[geek tragedy]

51. Amnesty International is a Neocon front organization, as are all human

rights NGO's.

:sarcasm:

[CONN]

53. And Amnesty Intl is always right....

Bush I suckered amnesty int'l into publishing a report about the incubator tale in the build up to the first Iraq war. This seriously distorted the American debate about whether to support military action. Amnesty International believed the tale!
Which Amnesty International later retracted!!

[NNN0LHI]

55. This false story turned seemingly intelligent people into blubbering idiots

When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html

More than 10 years later, I can still recall my brother Sean's face. It was bright red. Furious. Not one given to fits of temper, Sean was in an uproar. He was a father, and he had just heard that Iraqi soldiers had taken scores of babies out of incubators in Kuwait City and left them to die. The Iraqis had shipped the incubators back to Baghdad. A pacifist by nature, my brother was not in a peaceful mood that day. "We've got to go and get Saddam Hussein. Now," he said passionately.

I completely understood his feelings. Although I had no family of my own then, who could countenance such brutality? The news of the slaughter had come at a key moment in the deliberations about whether the US would invade Iraq. Those who watched the non-stop debates on TV saw that many of those who had previously wavered on the issue had been turned into warriors by this shocking incident.

Too bad it never happened. The babies in the incubator story is a classic example of how easy it is for the public and legislators to be mislead during moments of high tension. It's also a vivid example of how the media can be manipulated if we do not keep our guards up.

The invented story eventually broke apart and was exposed. (I first saw it reported in December of 1992 on CBC-TV's Fifth Estate – Canada's "60 Minutes" – in a program called "Selling the War." The show later won an international Emmy.) But it's been 10 years since it happened, and we again find ourselves facing dramatic decisions about war. It is instructive to look back at what happened, in order that we do not find ourselves deceived again, by either side in the issue.

http://www.globaled.org/curriculum/cm18a.html

The Incubator Baby Incident

READING 18A: Incubator Baby Incident
The London Daily Telegraph, on September 5, 1990, reported the claim by the exiled Kuwaiti housing minister, Yahya al-Sumait, that "babies in the premature unit of one hospital had been removed from their incubators so that these, too, could be carried off." The story was repeated on Reuters, an electronic press service. Two days later the Los Angeles Times published the Reuters story about the atrocity accounts of a San Francisco woman identified as "Cindy" and her traveling companion "Rudy" who had been evacuated from occupied Kuwait. "Iraqis are . . . taking hospital equipment, babies out of incubators. Life-support systems are turned off. snip

Nayirah's Testimony
On October 10, 1990, the congressional Human Rights Caucus provided an opportunity for Amnesty International to present their evidence against Iraq on Capitol Hill. The Caucus is not a committee of Congress and therefore does not require that a witness take an oath. An anonymous fifteen year old "Nayirah" allegedly a Kuwaiti with first hand knowledge of the crimes witnessed by "Cindy" from San Francisco. Nayirah reportedly could not give her last name because of fear of reprisals against her family. She testified tearfully:

"I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital. While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where 15 babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die. It was horrifying."
All major television networks, CNN and many local television stations replayed this testimony. Many newspapers reported on the hearing, and offer Nayirah's testimony.

President Bush
President Bush watched the hearings of the congressional Human Rights Caucus. In these hearings "Nayirah" reported on the Iraqis taking baby incubators in Kuwait. He was delighted with them. On October 15, 1990, President Bush reported that he had met with the Emir of Kuwait, who had told the President horrible tales about "newborn babies thrown out of incubators and the incubators then being shipped to Baghdad." He referred to the story five more times during the next five weeks, once in an interview with David Frost

The U.N. Security Council
On November 27, 1990, the U. N. Security Council heard "Dr. Issah Ibrahim," who explained that after the Iraqis took over "the hardest thing was burying the babies. Under my supervision, 120 newborn babies were buried the second week of the invasion. I myself buried 40 newborn babies that had been taken from their incubators by soldiers." An unidentified Kuwaiti refugee supported the testimony. The next day newspapers all over America reported on the testimony of this witness. snip

Amnesty International's Report
On December 19, 1990, Amnesty International published an 84-page report on the Human Rights violations in occupied Kuwait. The report stated, "In addition, over 300 premature babies were reported to have died after Iraqi soldiers removed them from incubators, which were then looted." The report cited three supports for this allegation. First, it reported that an unnamed Red Crescent doctor as saying that 312 premature babies at Maternity Hospital in al Sabah Medical Complex died after being taken from incubators and that he personally had buried 72. Second, the report also quoted the previous statement made before the Human Right Caucus offered by the anonymous fifteen year old "Nayirah." Third, the report mentioned a woman who had quadruplets at al Razi Hospital, who had gone home and then returned to find them out of their incubators. They died a day later at home. On January 8, 1991, U.S. executive director of Amnesty International reported the story in testimony before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. snip

[Judi Lynn]

60. People were cynically used by the same operators

and have never learned, apparently, they can be misled. They seem to automatically swallow EVERYTHING first, and assume if it's wrong, they'll be told later.

So much simpler. No obligation to postpone judgement pending further information. There's always a belief you never need to continue thinking about anything!

Thanks for this great info.

[progressivebydesign]

63. Brutal thugs, yes... but what we did to them was thuggery.

is that it does sound as if it's been confirmed that these guys were brutal, though I wonder if they killed as many as we have over there with our Shock and Awe. I still saw no purpose in slaying them so brutally and parading them around. Fuck the Geneva Convention if you're a Bush with payback on your mind? Is that how it works? We screwed up royally killing and parading them around like that. Regardless of how brutal we know they are, and how brutal some in Iraq thought they were, it only showed us as thugs and made the job for the troops over there much worse. Bush and his idiot friends actually believed that the horrific show they made of their bodies would somehow make the Iraqis dance in the street, tossing flowers at us. I remember the circumstances of their death and subsequent bloody show and tell at the airport, we killed them simply to appease Bush's need for revenge on Saddam. It would have been much more useful to have them alive and stand trial, if the Iraqis chose, for crimes they may have committed.

[daleo]

68. With Bush, there can be no trials

He is a dictator at heart, and hates the idea of due process.

[Solar]

75. my view

Were Saddam, Uday and Qusay bad people? Absolutly. But that fact alone does not justify the war.

I'm anti-war because America soldiers and innocent Iraqis are dying in an illegal war based on lies.

Just because Bush is wrong doesn't mean Saddam is right.