LATEST: Man shot in Stockwell tube not connected to July 21 attacks, say p

[emad]

LATEST: Man shot in Stockwell tube not connected to July 21 attacks, say police. More details soon ...

BREAKING NEWS on BBC

More details imminent.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/default.stm

[Newsjock]

1. Phew, he'll have a good case on appeal, then

Ohwait, he's dead already. So much for justice.

[emad]

2. Reminiscent of that Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom bit

where Harrison Ford kills the baddie by chucking him out of the airship, muttering "No ticket" & "Always buy a ticket"..........

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. Man, that's wrong in so many ways

First, the whole "Always buy a ticket" thing is in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Second, the Nazi is not killed, but thrown on a bunch of luggage. He ends up shaking his fist at the zeppelin as it departs.

Sorry, emad, but I'm a stickler for this kind of thing. ;-)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

19. "as giddy as a schoolboy"

i love me some Elsa Schneider

[emad]

30. You're right! It WAS the Last Crusade! But Jones's throwaway

line "NO Ticket!" easily came to mind when this shooting story broke yesterday, after the BBC stressed that the guy being pursued by the cops into the subway station jumped over the barriers and straight onto the train.....

[rexcat]

37. Looks like an assassination to me...

It should be interesting to see how the investigation of the police officers go!

[Benbow]

171. You will be disappointed - read the Rules of Engagement

[sleipnir]

3. Wow, I can smell the lawsuit coming from way over here in the US.

n/t

[Benbow]

88. There won't be a lawsuit - this is the UK, not the US

[emad]

4. BBC story:

Shot man 'unconnected' to bombing

Police have linked these men to the failed London bomb attacks
A man shot dead by police as part of the inquiry into Thursday's attempted bomb attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

FIVE shots fired at point blank range straight into his head....

[alarcojon]

9. FIVE shots fired at point blank range straight into his head....

Excessive force? Naaaaah

:sarcasm:

[emad]

11. UK cops must have been watching too much TV of late....

Maybe Iraq war coverage.

[bennywhale]

47. That particular squad has been to Israel for training and advice on

how to deal with suspected terrorist.

Seems they learn quickly.

[sattahipdeep]

51. "suspected" suicide bombers (shoot to kill)

Under secret guidelines codenamed Operation Kratos,
armed officers were instructed that they should shoot to
kill suspected suicide bombers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1697662_3,00.html

[Benbow]

55. The police have said that there is no shoot to kill policy

Only shoot to stop.

But these plain-clothes officers might have been SAS, in which case the rules of engagement are perhaps different.

[CJCRANE]

139. Shoot to STOP

is a shot to the torso. This wasn't shoot to stop.

[lockdown]

184. The official line seems to be there is no "shoot to kill" policy,

it remains a "shoot to stop" policy. In the case of potential suicide bombers "shoot to stop" happens to mean shoot in the head, but in no way does that mean it's a "shoot to kill" policy.

[CJCRANE]

187. Thanks

for clearing that up. I guess the killing part is just an unfortunate side-effect.

[lockdown]

198. Yeah, death is completely tangential to the stopping.

Big relief to young Muslims and Asians in London, I'm sure.

[kestrel91316]

209. This wasn't shoot to stop. This was murder.

[Stella_Artois]

220. What would you have done ?

They had to chose, in around 10 seconds, wether to shoot and take the risk that he jumped the ticket barrier and failed to stop when challenged for some other reason, or not shoot and take the risk that he really did have a bomb under the winter coat he was wearing on a hot summers day.

I'd have shot him. I hope the next time an armed policeman is put in the same position he shoots as well. My wife or child may be on that train.

[kestrel91316]

233. Well Stella, he wasn't shot while he was running ............

he had been caught and was being restrained by cops on his back when somebody put a gun to his head and fired 5 times point blank. What would YOU have done????

[architect359]

281. We're not there

What do we know???

IF he was a bomber and that is the working assumption than he COULD have blown up all the officers that was restraining him. In this case, yes, shoot to stop = shoot to kill. In this situation, it is tragic and stupid. The officers have to react to a person that refuses to stop and was making a determined beeline for the train in heavy clothing on a summer day. What would your thoughts be?

If you are a cop and sworn to protect the public, what would you have done in this situation? Pause to see if he was actually carrying a bomb? How would you do that? Wait for an explosion? Wait to see how many could been killed?

You want to blame somebody? Point fingers? Look no farther than the people that planned, ordered and executed the bombings.

OK look sorry for ranting. I don't know why he ran and didn't stop. I bet that you don't either. I wasn't standing over their shoulders. I don't know why they shot him at what sounds like point blank range. All I know is, in this day and age if a cop(s) with is yelling for me to stop, I'm going to stop. Yes. I am a chickenshit in this case. I don't want "misunderstandings".

[Stella_Artois]

285. Ermm i already said what i would have done

"I would have shot him"

I'll expand on that for you. I'd have shot him. 5 times. In the head.

[okieinpain]

238. seeing how there are camera's all over the place, i would like to

see the tape.

[Warren Stupidity]

274. oddly enough

there are no pictures that I can find. Gee I wonder why? :sarcasm:

[okieinpain]

286. can you make that sarcasm sign a little bigger.

[muriel_volestrangler]

288. Because when someone gets shot in the UK

it's not something they rush to show on TV. (a) It could be distasteful, (b) it's possible evidence for a court case. Showing it on TV does not help the investigation, but could easily prejudice a jury.

No need for sarcasm.

[Benbow]

54. And that man had not watched enough tv recently, I suggest

Otherwise he might have realised how risky a decision it would be to act the part of a would-be bomber.

[Henny Penny]

76. Did he act the part of a would-be bomber?

Perhaps the poor guy just thought he was going to be yanked off to Belmarsh or gitmo etc.

Or beaten up in a revenge attack?

I imagine young Asian males are probably quite nervous at the moment.

[Benbow]

86. Yes, he did

[MadisonProgressive]

18. I'm not excusing the police in ANY WAY

but I always have to wonder why the guy didn't just stop and talk to the police.

One edit: they were plain clothed, so he may not have known they were police.

[pfitz59]

27. And wind up in GITMO?

Are you kidding? No one in their right mind should stop for the police in this day and age! With "rendering", sanctioned torture, ghosting and other "nacht und nebel" nightmarish realities why should ANYONE trust law enforcement! The worst crime BUSHCO has committed is the undermining of trust in Law and Order! "Bring it on!" cried the insane monkey!

[MadisonProgressive]

33. Well, then you have to accept the consequenses.

[yardwork]

40. Maybe he was terrified

Maybe he was scared out of his mind because he was being chased by a bunch of shouting gun-waving people. Maybe he thought the police were terrorists. Just a thought.

[MadisonProgressive]

46. You're probably right

I was just responding to the person that said in effect that stopping for the police in any instance was wrong.

[Benbow]

58. Please save your empathy for terrified people caught up in the bombings

[mrfrapp]

69. Spread the empathy around

I wonder who has to formally identify this man's body? His wife, his children or his parents perhaps? Considering he was shot in the head five times at point blank range I'm guessing it'll be really tough for whomever it is.

[Benbow]

85. Multiply that, please, by the relatives of the 56 who were blown apart

on 7 July. Not neatly shot in the head - no, blown apart, legs hanging off, limbs amputated - and not one of them was doing anything but getting on with their ordinary lives: going to work, mainly.

[mrfrapp]

127. Unbelievable

I find you're attitude appalling. Of course there's a lot empathy to be given to the families of the 56 victims but this man was innocent too you know.

on edit: self delete imflammatory comment

[Benbow]

167. The feeling is mutual, then

[tavalon]

Neatly?

Neither of these were neat. Did he in fact "impersonate" a bomber?

[Karenina]

143. Never mind those blown up

on the same day in other parts of the world trying to get on with their lives amidst an Ami/Anglo invasion...

[Benbow]

170. Yes, in their 10s and 100s of thousands :-(

[conservdem]

153. Good points.

[Andrushka]

232. "Not neatly shot in the head"?

Does that make this man's death any less horrific? You disgust me.

[Frederik]

79. Why?

Are others unworthy of empathy?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

95. But this guy was innocent too.

Shot is just as dead as blown up.

[Benbow]

112. Let us wait for the outcome of the inquiry

He was innocent of carrying a bomb but, unfortunately for him, he behaved as if he was not innocent altogether of anything that could possibly interest the law-enforcers. Not, say, as innocent as the 56 who died and the 700 who were injured for life on 7 July.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

129. Why are you so certain?

[conservdem]

158. Good points also.

[TheWatcher]

257. Do you actually have any points to share yourself

Or are you just this poster's "yes" man?

[Gronk Groks]

262. He was Brazilian...They speak Portugese not English...

...he may not of understood what they were saying. Since they were in plain clothes it is unlikely he knew they were police officers.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

132. And not am innocent man shot to death.

Wow. I'd hate to be your kid.

[High Plains]

151. Not for innocent people killed by the police, too?

[emad]

32. But apparently the cops DID shout "Freeze! Police!"....

maybe he was feelin' guilty about something else....

[ignatius 2]

38. The man was apparently Asian. Does anyone know if he even spoke English?

Perhaps he was in the country illegally, the last time I was in Europe there were lots of African "street" vendors who were most likely illegal immigrants. This guy might not have even known what the undercover cop were saying and who knows, might have been feeling guilty about something, but now that he has five fuckin' bullet holes in him from close range we may never know.

The entire world is going nuts, thanks to monkeyboy and his neocon murdering buds These cops overreacted in the worst way and I suspect we will see more and more of this madness.

[Benbow]

71. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - the police did not over-react at all

in my view.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the 56 who died two weeks ago - ordinary Londoners who were Christian, Muslim, Jew, Chinese, German, Afghan, Africans as well as English - and the 700 who will always have their injuries by which to remember 7 July.

[Frederik]

80. According to one of the eye witnesses

they chased him into the train and then forced him down and fired 5 shots into his back while holding him down. I'd say they overreacted.

[Benbow]

90. You were not there, worrying about the next suicide bomber

[Frederik]

99. The eyewitnesses were there.

[lumpy]

123. Neither were you there, Ben.

Empathy? Yes. Lack of empathy is what is wrong with half of the world.

[conservdem]

178. See my post #162

[kestrel91316]

210. If that's what they did, I call it murder.

[tavalon]

147. I understand that these incidents have been frightening and painful

but please don't do what we in America did - allowed our country to sink into fascism and gave up huge liberties for illusory safety.

Please don't allow your government to drag you down to our level.

[tavalon]

149. Hey, are you possibly an American transplant to London?

What you are saying sounds just like what was being said here after 9/11. The emotional age of America under stress appeared to be about 3 years old and we wanted our daddy. And boy did we get him, it just turned out that he was not really there to protect us (as if anyone really can) he was there to fleece us and make his rich buddies all the more rich.

If you let fear allow you to destroy your democratic government and the way that the police behave to their own citizens, then the terrorists win.

[Benbow]

173. No, I am British, and I have lived in London since 1977

[OfireitupO]

165. SO now its ok

For police to murder people too?

[greblc]

196. How about insight? You know to someones possible innocence.

Forgetting that, how about the possibility a suspect may have information useful in preventing another attack.

Dead men don't talk. The whole incident seems like sloppy policing.

[Warren Stupidity]

236. you have got yo be kidding

They pinned him down on the ground and executed him. That is not an overreaction? :wtf:

[mountainvue]

248. I heard that he was Brazilian

and didn't speak English.

[Benbow]

59. Or maybe he had been told to be a decoy

[lumpy]

126. Ben, why don't you 'wait for the outcome of

the enquiry' (your words) before you speculate.

[Warren Stupidity]

240. 'he' was brazilian

he had nothing to do with any of this mess. He may not have even understood why men with guns were chasing him.

[tavalon]

145. And in a police state

one must stop immediately, even if you can't tell they're police and even if you don't speak the language. Is is possible he didn't know English and so a bunch of people in plain clothes with guns and panicked, running for his life?

[confludemocrat]

258. High temp was 71F, Brazilian had coat, cops were plainclothes on edge

The BBC said it was in the seventies that day, the guy had a coat on. If you were from a tropical country and it was 71.6, that is winter for you. They said on the BBC World that the cops were in plainclothes. We have no details, none, from any eyewitnesses prior to the shooting, we heard two witnesses to the actual killing on the carriage. The London commish or chief claimed he was linked to the bombings, now of course he should answer for why he claimed that

[othermeans]

35. Rmember the cops were in plain clothes? Remeber all the threats

against Muslims? Remember the people trying to burn down the former house of one of the alleged bombers? Now knowing that and you're from the Middle East would you stop if somebody with a gun said Stop or I'll shoot?

[Gays_R_Family]

74. "Stop or I'll Shoot" and you'd run?

Ummm .. yes. Because they'd be more likely to shoot if you didn't stop.

Running away would be likely forcing them to pull the trigger, kinda like how running from a big cat triggers the instinct to run after you, catch you and eat you.

[Benbow]

81. No, it is not like that here - or in most countries

In the US, many countries in continental Europe, and most of the Third World, if you do not stop when the police tell you to stop, you end up shot dead.

In the UK, if the police told me to stop I would stop, so as not to give them a reason to shoot me. I am not stupid.

[Henny Penny]

125. or you speak english.

[confludemocrat]

250. These were plain clothes cops undercover. Remember he was Brazilian

You might run if you were him, too. And cops in Brazil are murderous.

[architect359]

282. But he wasn't in Brazil, he was in the UK n/t

[Benbow]

114. We now know that he was not from the Middle East

[Benbow]

56. Most witnesses report that they were carrying automatic weapons

so, as much as anyone does, he would have known that they were police.

[conservdem]

154. I wonder the same, and they may have been yelling that

they were the police.

[okieinpain]

239. what if somebody did run, but just not this guy.

[conservdem]

162. I suspect they were trying to make sure he would not be able to

activate the bomb they thought he had. If that's the case, I would not jump to the conclusion of excessive force. A jury may find that it was reasonable force in the circumstances.

[Gregorian]

5. The first thing I thought when I heard about this guy was-

Gee, I wonder if he was just in a hurry. Why else would someone jump the turnstyles?
Note to self- if in public, always act calm.

So this is the new world order. Act calm, or die. Another chapter, brought to you by a Bush.

[Benbow]

60. Jumping the turnstiles could be fare evasion, at the very least

so if you do this you will always attract attention to yourself.

[tavalon]

152. And we prosecute fare evasion

with five shots to the head.

I will never, ever try to evade a fare in England, I promise!

[jayctravis]

246. You know what though, it's the Darwin rule in effect.

If the guy was stupid enough to be where there had been two terrorist bombings, wearing a coat, evading police and jumping a turnstile; if he's not smart enough to understand WHY that warrants police attention and cooperation, then it is just God weeding out the stupid people. If you're not wanting to spook the cops, you don't behave like he did.

Of course I feel very sorry for him and his family, and of course the people involved may face discipline. That's the responsibility that police are charged with.

[architect359]

283. No

"...with five shots to the head.

I will never, ever try to evade a fare in England, I promise!"

He was told to stop outside the train station. He did not respond but instead run into the station and than jump the barricade. He was not caught just jumping over the turnstiles.

[RebelOne]

6. I guess you could call this a case

of "Shoot first, ask questions later."

[emad]

7. Guardian coverage:

The man shot dead in Stockwell tube station yesterday was not connected to the attempted bombings of London on July 21, police said tonight.
Police said the shooting was a "tragedy" and they expressed "regret".

In a statement, the Metropolitan police said: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell underground station by police on Friday July 22 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday July 21 2005.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.

"The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday July 21.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions."

MORE:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1534779,00.html

[TroglodyteScholar]

8. What I heard on NPR yesterdsay...

Was that yea, they chased him down, tackled him, and shot him multiple times point-blank. There was also a commentary by someone who grew up in Britain lamenting the passing of the old stereotypical "Bobbies."

I know this kind of thing is unusual over there, but I have trouble believing this was purely an accident. You don't just go from having a police force that's largely unarmed to a police force that kills after a suspect is apprehended. Did the guy know something sensitive?

WHO WAS THIS GUY???

[glitch]

10. This is what I am thinking. Even if they thought he was a terrorist,

wouldn't they want him alive? So they could question him?
Where is the point in executing him?

[suffragette]

25. great questions

They have him outnumbered and caught, then empty 5 rounds into him. It does sound like an execution.

[Benbow]

72. They didn't execute him

They had to make a split-second decision about the likelihood that he had a bomb that he could detonate with one movement, based on his behaviour when challenged to stop.

[goforit]

242. This may have been the shot heard around the world.......

I beg to differ...

They could have waited.

Now the line in the sand has been drawn and will never be forgotton.

[Hoping4Change]

83. They shot him as not to give him time to detonate a bomb.

[conservdem]

181. See my post #162

[hippywife]

12. Good question.

Seems odd that he was shot after already on the ground and covered.

[Benbow]

73. Don't you people read further than the headlines?

He was on the ground - Yes. But if he had had a bomb on him, he could still have detonated it, by raising his arms or putting his hand in his pocket. And the police had no way of knowing if he had a bomb on him or not, only that that he had ignored police commands to stop and had run into an Underground station (and not, say, down a side-street).

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

87. 2 of them couldn't have grabbed his arms?

Really.

[Benbow]

91. And thus helped him detonate his bomb - yeah, that would have been stupid

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

97. How so?

He's on the ground, there's more than one cop, they grab both arms and hold them in place. If a detonator is that volatile, it would have gone off when he fell for heaven's sake.

[Benbow]

101. You don't know anything about electrical circuitry, evidently

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

106. Please enlighten me

He's running, he's falling, that doesn't set off a bomb. Grabbing his arms and holding them still WOULD set off a bomb.

You're right, I don't understand and I would really like to.

[Benbow]

113. I am told that everything you need to know about making bombs is on the

but sure as hell I am not going to tell you where to find it.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Benbow]

119. Nope - that's me being pretty responsible

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

124. You think I'm trying to trick you into telling me how to make a bomb?

Man, you are shook up.

[bennywhale]

156. You said electric circutry. You are dodging the answer cos you don't have

one.

[tavalon]

159. Ha, I will

The Anarchist's Cookbook

[conservdem]

182. Perhaps two could have grabbed his arms and perhaps

he still might have triggered a bomb as they tried. The loss of life might have been much higher.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

201. Well, perhaps he could have triggered the bomb

before they shot him, too. What an argument.

AGAIN. THERE WASN'T A BOMB.

[conservdem]

214. Do you believe that the cops thought he had a bomb?

It's great that there was not a bomb. But if it goes to a jury they will probably focus on whether the cops had good cause to think he probably had a bomb. If so they would probably find that their actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

Do you believe that the cops thought he had a bomb?

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

221. Thought he might have a bomb, yes

know he had a bomb, no.

[lumpy]

130. Ben, why don't you 'wait for the outcome of

the enquiry'? Appears you want this man to be guilty of something to justify the fact he was shot in the head 5 times at point blank. Might you be from a country that shoots first and asks questions later?

[sattahipdeep]

15. A (James Hatfield?)

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

[lockdown]

16. Killed for guilt by association

He was being followed because he left an address forensically linked to the failed bombings. It would seem that's all the proof they had.

The officers involved aren't to blame, they were following tactics their superiors have approved. The police chiefs and political leaders pushing these measures should be held accountable. :grr:

[LivingInTheBubble]

28. And the place he left

wasnt even a single residence it was a block of flats!

[lockdown]

29. Yeah, just read that

"The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday July 21.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1534779,00.html

I want to know who set up Operation Kratos, guidelines which draw on Israeli advice and approve shooting SUSPECTED suicide bombers dead.

[sattahipdeep]

36. "frangible" ammunition

Under secret guidelines codenamed Operation Kratos,
armed officers were instructed that they should shoot to
kill suspected suicide bombers. "The most effective way
of dealing with someone with explosives is to shoot
them in the head," said the officer.

They are armed with Glock pistols, Heckler & Koch MP5
semi-automatic machineguns and G3 short-barreled
rifles, which are small enough to be carried discreetly in
a shoulder holsters. The rifles, equipped with "red dot"
sights, use "frangible" ammunition that releases all its
energy in the target’s body, instead of passing through it
and endangering nearby civilians.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1697662_3,00.html

[Benbow]

75. It had been under police surveillance

Your point is?

[lockdown]

108. The point is

his link to the failed bombs was even more tenuous, nothing like the direct link police were claiming.

[KittyWampus]

44. Why Would Police Divulge They Were Watching Where This Guy Was?

to the extent they even reported it in the US?

That's a dead give away to the other possible terrorists who might be in the same hangout.

Now they know they're being watched.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

89. He was also guilty of

wearing a jacket.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

105. Not even a specific address.

He left an apartment building that was under surveillance. He could have come out of any apartment in the building.

So if my apt. complex was under surveillance, I would automatically be a suspect?

[Benbow]

116. "So if my apt. complex was under surveillance

I would automatically be a suspect?"

Yes, of course, until eliminated from the enquiry: that would be the case in any country that took its policing seriously.

[greblc]

206. Policing Seriously?

If gunning down possible suspects without questioning is "policing seriously" you Brits are in more trouble than you know.

Your country seems to be wrapped up in knee jerk reactions similar to what followed 9/11 in the U.S.

Everyone wants vengance after terrible attacks like 9/11 & 7/7. Leaders will respond in kind if you let them. That's why we are are at war in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

If your ok with that, put on a uniform and go chase some ghosts.

[kestrel91316]

211. "That would be the case in any FASCIST POLICE STATE"

[LisaL]

263. It wasn't even a house. He left an apartment complex.

Poor guy was shot for leaving an apartment complex possibly associated with bombings. How many people live in the apartment complex, and do they all deserve to be executed just because they live in a apartment complex possibly associated with the bombings?

[bennywhale]

48. I'm from England and have read and seen on TV a lot of eyewitnesses.

For a start they were absolutely traumatised by seeing such an execution. Many ran screaming and many were found sitting on the floor sobbing.

Most said the man ran and "fell" towards the train in the doors. he was then pushed and shoved until on the floor by the police. He was then (while lying on his back on the floor and unarmed) shot five times in the head.

As an Englishman i am deeply saddened by this. For the death of this man and the apparent death of our police force as we know it.

[Benbow]

93. Traumatised, naturally - but not blown to bits

"the apparent death of our police force as we know it."

Oh, perlease. The more that would-be suicide bombers know that they will cop "frangible" ammunition, the safer the rest of us are.

[Henny Penny]

131. Except of course... suicide bombers already intend to die...

and it is the rest of us who are less safe.

[bennywhale]

150. Thats like the ludicrous suggestion of bringing the death penalty in for

suicide bombers. THEY DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

Also you may be unaware that this man was unarmed, had no bomb was lying on the floor in a public station in London and was shot in the head five times.

British police have never done that in their history, and this Katos(i think thats it) squad IS the death of the British police as we know it.

This is a shoot-to-kill assasination squad trained by similar Israeli squads as has been admitted. You may think thats all great fun but i don't. An unarmed fleeing man was shot in the head five times in the head. Read that again

AN UNARMED FLEEING MAN WAS SHOT FIVE TIMES IN THE HEAD WHILE LYING ON THE FLOOR IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN FRONT OF DOZENS IN ENGLAND.

Do you still think its all very exciting

[High Plains]

155. He wasn't a suicide bomber

[Benbow]

61. We still have old style "bobbies" - unarmed, perhaps overweight

but they are not equipped to deal with suicide bombers and people who don't mind looking like potential suicide-bombers.

Police in the relatively safe part of south London where I live routinely wear anti-stab jackets but don't carry guns. It is stupid to mourn the passing of the stereotypical "bobbies" when the police nowadays face threats that the old bobbies never did.

[bennywhale]

225. "people who don't mind looking like suicide bombers" WTF. We do still

live in a freecoountry where someone is allowed to wear a jacket?

He was an innocent Brazilian.

[suffragette]

243. "people who don't mind looking like potential suicide-bombers"

So is there now a dress code for how not to look this way? Do we all need to follow it?
Perhaps we need a new TV show for it, "What Not to Wear So You Won't Get Shot."
So the guy had on a coat. Maybe he wasn't returning until late and wanted it for the evening. Maybe he works in a chilly place. Maybe he's from a warmer climate and gets cold easily.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. You'd have to wonder

How clearly the plain clothed officers identitifed themselves to this man. As I understand it, racial tensions are now pretty high: if a group of five burly white guys started following and making moves towards me, and I was a Muslim in that atmosphere, I'd probably run and "disobey orders" as well.

[theHandpuppet]

17. I believe thay were plainclothesmen, too

From what I recall, he was being tailed and then chased by plainclothesmen. If that's true, there was no way this poor guy knew what the hell was going on, especially if he spoke little English. Of course, I do not know all of the facts in this case, but I do rememebr a report stating that he was being tailed by plainclothesmen.

[Briar]

21. That's what I heard

that the police were in plainclothes. They were doing surveillance after all - I imagine full uniform is not de rigeur for that. What's more British policemen are not known for running around waving firearms - he can't have known what the heck was happening. They were gangsters or racists, for all he knew.

He was killed for being in the wrong place and wearing the wrong clothes while having a brown skin.

[donco6]

22. Yes, I would be terrified, too. eom

[progressivebydesign]

31. And what if you did not speak English?

Can you imagine? They are now clarifying that he 'exited from a BLOCK of flats they were watching', before it was "the flat". They don't even know who the guy was... The police over there are out of control at the moment and appear to be hysterical. Can you imagine what the bystanders must be going through watching this terrified man being cornered and shot execution style? Then to find out it was a big mistake?

Hey, I'm all for hunting down the bad guys, but this was unbelievably wrong.

[LisaL]

39. It's disgusting. And I don't believe the guy was running away either.

5 shots in the head would be kind of hard to do on a moving target.
Whoever shot the poor guy should be charged with murder.

[Benbow]

62. You would have waited for the bomb to go off -

the bomb that the police had no way of knowing that he did not have and was not running away with to place on an Underground train.

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. An extreme cop-out (no pun intended)

I don't think anyone's arguing that the man shouldn't have been shot if the police had good reason to think he was about to detonate a bomb on the train. The question is: Did they have good reason to think that? And the answer, increasingly, seems to be no. Now, some may make disturbing moral "calculations" like "better one innocent guy dead by mistake of commission than 50 people dead by mistake of restraint." Perhaps. Now, I caught hell in another thread for supporting the NYC bag search procedure, so I think I able to compromise to some extent on such questions. But I would argue that a society in which the default is SHOOT - regardless of reason, even among trained professionals - is no better than a society in which trains are blowing up from time to time.

[Benbow]

84. I disagree - they did have good reason to think that

In the UK, we are nowhere near the default being SHOOT.

[High Plains]

157. The bomb that wasn't there

The police have already apologized for this. Why do you keep defending it?

[LisaL]

265. What bomb? The guy had no bomb.

They had no way of knowing he did not? Well, that presumably applies to anyone on the street. I don't think police should have a right to shoot just anyone they please.

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

41. That's exactly what I was thinking

He may well have thought he was being chased by a mob. He might not have even realized they were police.

[Pachamama]

280. The guy was Latin American! He may have been afraid of being mistaken for

being Middle Eastern and having brown skin and dark hair and given all the bombings might have been terrified that a mob was after him, especailly if they had guns and were in plainclothes.

I remember in a thread when the news first came on CNN that someone had been shot and killed in the tube by police that the first question I posted was that he was probably shot because he had brown skin and looked middle eastern....guess I wasn't so far off base, was I?

[Orsino]

20. "Go about your business, Citizen."

"Citizen? Citizen?"

[High Plains]

23. What happened to all those people who were so quick to defend

the police action yesterday? Hello?

[Benbow]

64. I'm here - look, I am sorry that he is dead but 7 July was the first time

that the UK has experienced suicide bombers. This chap, now dead, should have had the nous to realise that, if he behaved as if he had something to hide and ran into an Underground station to hide it, there was a very strong chance that he would end up dead.

I really do not see what else the police could have done. They were extremely brave, and he was indescribably stupid.

[Igel]

65. The same defenses still apply.

Why say the same thing over and over and over and over. And over.

You act on your perceptions on the scene at the time, and leave it to those who weren't there to judge based on media reports and superior after-the-fact knowledge.

[High Plains]

160. And you get it wrong and an innocent person is dead. Oopsie!

[Igel]

253. Yes.

You train cadets, you educate cadets, you try to make sure the cadets reflexes are in the best shape possible. And you fail, because the best don't apply to be cadets, the instructors make mistakes, and the police develop bad habits. So you make do, because there's no other option; it would be nice to make do with no police, but that's probably a bad option.

Then you send the police out on the street. If they're wrong and overreact, innocent people die; if they're wrong and underreact, they die--and if it's somebody with a bomb, innocent people also die. If they're right, they're heroes, at least to most people. The difference any two of those possibilities can be a few lux, a few tenths of a second, whether the cop had a good night's sleep or one too many drinks at some to-do the night before, or whether he's prejudiced, either through unreasoning bias or generalizing from experience.

In a world with only imperfect people, the best you do is hope they're right more than they're wrong, and train them for the best possible outcome--keeping down the crime rate, and the body count.

I have the same response when the police goof in the other direction--they underreact, and innocent people die. But many people hold the police just as responsible for not taking out a possible killer as they do for erroneously taking out what looks to be a possible killer. That leaves perfection as the only possibility some expect; but we know that's already an unrealistic expectation.

[President Kerry]

279. great comments..

it just remains to be seen if this was a moment's justifiable judgment error or something far more serious..

[electron_blue]

24. didn't they say they had followed him from his house?

Doesn't sound like he was stuck in the crossfire. Sounds like more screwed up "intelligence"

[Tai-chi]

53. Yes. Followed from a house. And shot on a train with 5 bullets

Why the H... did they wait for so long? Why didn't they arrest this man on the street? And interrogate him if they "knew" something?
Why let the man enter a train and put other people in danger?

This is utterly absurd and makes NO sense. And is not a "mistake".

[Benbow]

78. I am really disappointed with DUers' response to this incident

So many of you clearly have not read further than the media headlines; and, what I find especially depressing, is that you seem already to have forgotten all those who died or were horribly injured on 7 July, in the worst peace-time attack in the UK since WWII - and by suicide bombers.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

134. deja vu

Those who protested the war in Iraq had "forgotten" the 9-11 victims.

[lumpy]

141. Get real,Ben.

No DUer has forgotten anything regarding these attacks against innocent people. Some of us have known victims of these deadly assaults and believe it, we read further than the headlines. Follow your own advice and "wait for the outcome of the enquiry".

[kestrel91316]

215. "Yeah, DUers ..................."

the deaths of 50 some people in a suicide attack is COMPLETE justification for the coldblooded murder of whomever we fascists wish. We get to decide who the enemy is, by whatever criteria we wish, and then we appoint ourselves judge, jury, and executioner. It's ever so much tidier and more economical than a messy trial. After all, why quibble over trivia like, uh, innocence and guilt? This guy fit our preconceived notion of guilty. That makes him, by definition, GUILTY. End of subject."

:sarcasm:

[LisaL]

268. Police admits this guy wasn't a suicide bomber.

They shot an innocent man. He is a victim that didn't have to be a victim.
You are disappointed? I don't think shooting innocent people in the head indicates that police is doing a good job, sorry.

[jbnow]

144. I hadn't thought of that, as obvious

as it is. They had followed him and if the coat made him suspicious...why not stop him before he got near the train? It's not like if he didn't enter the train he couldn't be in trouble for being wired to explode.

And...if they could get him down that close to the train, not feeling they were endangering near-by people, then grabbing his arms once he was down couldn't have been riskier.

But your point is the larger one...why not stop him sooner?

[muriel_volestrangler]

212. Part of the problem was that he ran into the Tube station

when challenged - which, from the point of view of the men following him, probably made him look more suspicious.

It doesn't seem to me that they had reasonable evidence to start following him with lots of armed policemen - whoever made that decision screwed up most, I think, because coming from the same block of flats as a suspect isn't much evidence (which raises the question of whether they followed anyone with dark skin). They did try to arrest him in the street - that was when he ran into the Tube station (perhaps another screw up was not having policemen on all sides so that he wouldn't be able to run at all). But if you suspect someone of an association with bombers, and when challenged, they run into a Tube station and onto a Tube train, the day after 3 Tube trains have had attempted bombings, I can see why they'd think he could very easily be a bomber, by that point.

[jbnow]

227. I see that in article now

1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead

Twenty plain clothes officers? Imagining being him and twenty guys start chasing me...and it's a time of terror...how well do I even hear what they are shouting at me? If I do hear "POLICE! STOP!" do I believe it?

Could have been he was running to the safety of a crowd as quickly as he could...and in his terror not thinking of how it looked if they really were police.

And from the police view he likely did seem dangerous. I notice the summary doesn't mention he was already down when shot. Perhaps the police had too much adrenaline as can happen during a chase...and over reacted once they caught him and had him down, as happens here.

[LisaL]

267. It wasn't even a house. It was an apartment building.

[wakeme2008]

26. The Cop should be arrested and put on trial...

Man was on the ground and executed by the cop with five bullets to the head.

[LisaL]

42. Exactly. I don't there is any way they could have shot him in the

head five times if he was running away from them.

[Benbow]

66. Oh for crying out loud - he was not executed -

he behaved exactly like someone with something to hide, and ran into an Underground station and onto a train - given everything that has happened lately, the police could not take the risk that he was going to detonate bomb number 9 and kill and maim another 700 people.

I swear - the bleeding hearts are really pissing me off: if the police had stayed their hand, and he had detonated a bomb belt, you would be saying Why didn't the police shoot him? In the few seconds in which the police had to make a decision, they made the only correct decision - in my view - based on the man's behaviour.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

128. The bleeding hearts?

hmmm.

[Henny Penny]

138. freudian slip???

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

142. No kidding

Smells a bit, doesn't it?

[lumpy]

168. Oh yeah, wafting our way. Stinkin'.

Well, the pumped up guy got to have a conversation of sorts.

[High Plains]

161. THERE WAS NO BOMB! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

Your freaked-out cops gunned down an innocent person. You can call knocking someone to the ground and pumping five bullets into their head "incredibly brave," if you wish. I call it murder.

[conservdem]

188. See my post #162

[wakeme2008]

203. THE COPS WERE UNDERCOVER AND NOT DRESSED AS COPS

If five guys dressed who knows how start to run after you in NYC what would you do...

[LisaL]

264. He had no bomb.

His behavior could be easily explained as the police were not wearing uniforms. He would have no way of knowing who was following him and probably run because he was scared of people following him.

[ignatius 2]

34. A repug nutcase in my office was going on and on about that

is the way we have to deal with terrorists. just blow them away, no courts, no lawyers,blah..blah..blah

I said first of all, if he was involoved might they have gotten some info from him and secondly what if he wasn't involved. If you take away anybody's rights, you are on a slippery slope to deny everybody's rights.

I might as well have talked to the coffee maker..it has more on the ball than this idiot.

[yardwork]

43. It could have been your office mate

The fascist-apologists never understand that. Nobody walks around wearing a sign that says, "I am a terrorist."

When citizens allow the police to "just kill terrorists, blow them away, no courts, no lawyers, blah blah blah," they're giving the police permission to kill anybody.

[Henny Penny]

140. They lack empathy... it is always a give away!

[lumpy]

172. Cold and calculating.

No heart, let alone a bleeding one.

[Benbow]

175. Abu Ghraib, Falluja - shall I continue?

[rexcat]

204. If I am not mistaken there are 8-10 UK troops being...

brought up for War Crimes. It is not just US troops. There are 140,000 or so US troops vs. 9,000 or less UK troops. This "war" in Iraq is dead wrong! Hussein was boxed in. All we have done, including Blare, is make the whole world less save from the terrorists because we don't give a damn about the terrorists. All we care about is the oil.

Of course if the UK had done things right in 1923 through 1958 we probably would not be in the mess we are in as far as the Middle East is concerned! Try reading your history!

[CJCRANE]

148. Yeah,

I'd bet he'd love it if it had been him with a thick jacket on and he got shot in the head "just in case".

[bassman79]

45. He probably knew too much about the bombings...

This guys was probably one of the patsies recruited by MI5 to carry the bombs but somehow weasled out and had to be eliminated before he went public.

[bennywhale]

49. Do you honestly believe that MI5 were involved in the bombings of London

I'm a born cynic but that is a push too far. In fact with arguments like that people like you set back the progressive cause by years.

[Must_B_Free]

50. whose agenda is being served?

[Benbow]

82. That of extremists who want the UK government to do certain things

like stop supporting George Bush and Ariel Sharon in the rape of the Middle East.

[bennywhale]

146. MI5's agenda certainly isn't. A complete

failure of intelligence.

Also the police and security services have asked for more powers in light of thisthat have been refused.

And, the British public aren't as easily fooled as you think. They won't allow sweeping new powers and this certainly won't lead to any invasions like 9/11 as many are in part blaming this on policy up until now.

It was terrorists

[Henny Penny]

191. I was watching bbc24 on the web as they were interviewing

some of the witnesses. Or rather leading some of the witnesses and clearly encouraging them to link this guy with the bombs or say that he himself was carrying a suspicious package etc...

But one after another, the great British public refused to be led and kept saying things like... I don't know about that... or I didn't see anything like that...

I thought it was most reassuring. I just hope the politicians don't let them down.

[bennywhale]

224. I like that honesty. It shows a definite individualism and the

character not to be led or manipulated. You're right that is very reassuring.

[Benbow]

67. Tin hat alert

[LibertyorDeath]

52. I've seen people wearing heavy coats in hot July weather

They're usually mental patients.

[barb162]

63. or homeless people or terrorists

Homeless often have several coats oor jackets on in the hottest weather

[theHandpuppet]

92. Ot they're from Brazil and what's considered "hot" is relative

According to the BBC News, "the man - thought to be Brazilian - died at Stockwell Tube in an incident Scotland Yard described as a "tragedy".

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

I hope that was meant as sarcasm on your part

And not the racist remark it appears to be on the surface.

[Benbow]

107. Nope - realistic, and not racist - I don't have a racist bone in my body

I was born and brought up among Muslims, in East and North Africa, and I much admire Arab culture and history and Islamic art.

[theHandpuppet]

110. Then why do you assume this man was a cocaine dealer?

I'm still waiting for your explanation.

[LibertyorDeath]

177. "what's considered "hot" is relative"

Good point...

[CJCRANE]

174. or into hiphop

NB: that is not a comment on the mental state of people who like hiphop, just about the fashion (thick jackets, wooly hats etc).

[sattahipdeep]

57. You, Too, Could Be A Suspected Terrorist n/t

[Benbow]

68. If you behave exactly like one

[theHandpuppet]

96. And just how is that?

If I was a Brazilian (which this guy may have been according to the BBC), perhaps didn't speak English, and a bunch of plainsclothes guys started chasing me with guns, I might just run. That is "terrorist behavior" deserving execution?

Note to brown people, especially non-native speakers: for God's sake stay out of Britain. Any moves on your part deemed suspicious may result in your execution.

[Benbow]

100. If you were a cocaine-dealer ...

[theHandpuppet]

104. And you base that assumption on what?

Please do elaborate with some evidence.

[Benbow]

118. I live here, in London

I would like all of us to wait for the outcome of the enquiry.

[theHandpuppet]

122. I see...

So any brown person from a certain part of town must be a drug dealer.

Not a racist bone in YOUR body, I can see that.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

133. I'm not buying any of this

You?

[theHandpuppet]

135. Me neither

And I'm incredibly disappointed in some of the comments I've read here, especially from some of our British DUers.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

137. Me, too.

It's enough to make you wonder.

[malaise]

180. I wonder where

these plain clothed cops came from - this will be interesting. What a sad story - an innocent man is slaughtered. How does sorry help his family. I am pissed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

[Gays_R_Family]

77. If he was about to trigger a bomb on his person ...

then shooting him in the head was the right thing to do.

My only question is what really happened?

Because I don't trust the people in power to necessarily tell me the truth. Unless it advances their own selfish agendas.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

94. The right thing to do

was to grab both arms of the guy.

[Benbow]

103. And possibly close the electrical circuit - and BOOM!

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

115. Except for the fact that there WASN'T one

I said holding them in place. Not allowing him to lift his arms, or put a hand in his pocket. What you keep forgetting is that they had him and they had him down and there were more of them than him.

[Benbow]

120. As I say, 20:20 hindsight is wonderful

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

121. not hindsight that they had him down

and caught.

[OfireitupO]

163. MURDER

Plain and simple

Point blank assassination by police on an innocent man.


Lesson from this - dont run from police because they'll murder your ass too.

[Benbow]

166. RTROE - Read the Rules of Engagement - and talk less tripe

[OfireitupO]

169. So the rules of engagement

Are fire 5 shots into someones head when you have them on the ground and dont know if they are armed or not?

Actually, even in a war zone thats a breach of the geneva conventions - they are to be taken to prison.

Is London now a war zone where if you run from police you have a death wish? Thats not democracy, thats Saddams Iraq.

[Warren Stupidity]

241. Well I see that England too

has its share of apologists for fascism.

[NNN0LHI]

102. Who was it that said this man had a bomb belt? n/t

[Benbow]

109. One witness said he had but was probably seeing things

[Zhade]

111. Thank goodness the police are making sure civilians remain unhurt!

Er, hold on a sec...

[WinkyDink]

136. REVOLTING police actions

This man may not have been of even average I.Q. He may not have used the Tube for 3 weeks, and been unaware of events (who's to say exactly what he knew?). So he wore a jacket not for the heat; some people DO that, because their body temps are whacked. BUT WE WON'T KNOW any of these answers, will we?
Moreover, WERE he a terrorist, well, there goes the info he might have provided.

Benbow, you know, even Condi and Andrea got roughed up by foreign authorities. Oh, wait, I forgot; they ARE the enemy. Heh.
And one more point: Do you think random searches of bags will help? HAHAHA! How about the bag primed to explode AT THAT ACTION?

[Benbow]

164. Brave police actions

You claim that if had not used the Tube for 3 weeks, he could have "been unaware of events". No, Londoners have talked of almost nothing else; it has been front-page news nearly every day - the bombs, the damage, the search for bodies, the forensic examinations, the funerals, the reactions of those affected. On national radio, local radio, talk stations, tv, web sites, blogs ...

[lumpy]

176. What the hell is brave about pumping

five bullets into a man's brain? Do you think the man who did that is able to live with himself knowing that he killed the wrong person. A person who might be completely innocent of any crime what-so-ever. Maybe you should have some 'empathy' for the policeman who has to live with this knowledge that he might have killed an innocent individual.

[OfireitupO]

179. Exactly

Looking at it objectively it all leads to murder. Mistake yes, murder yes. Just because a man is running doesnt make him a target. What does london need now? State run assassination squads of anyone they perceive to be a bomber?

[kestrel91316]

217. Yep, let's just have plainclothes cops everywhere .............

and give them carte blanche to off anybody who "looks suspicious".

Hey, that could have the effect fairly quickly of solving some pesky population and peak oil problems..............

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

183. NOTHING brave about it

There "might" be a bomb on anybody. You can't just shoot people. You can't.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

205. the dude was brazilian maybe he didn't peak, read, or blog in english

[LisaL]

276. So what? This guy was not connected to terrorist attacks.

What exactly do you find "brave police actions"? Shooting an innocent man in the head?

[Placebo]

185. The total nonchalance with which the authorities are dealing with this...

is pretty gross.

On Friday they were more than eager to spew out statements with no basis in sound fact, such as:

"The information I have available is that this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation."

"Nevertheless the man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents."

And now that we know the truth:

"We believe we know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police, although he is still subject to formal identification," the new statement said. "We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday, 21st July."

Asked if Prime Minister Tony Blair would address the issue, a spokeswoman at 10 Downing Street who spoke under civil service anonymity rules said Mr. Blair was "kept updated on all developments, but this is a matter for the Metropolitan Police. We have nothing to add." Prime Minister Blair was spending the weekend at his country residence, Chequers.

:grr:

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

186. It's a case of running while brown

and wearing a jacket.

THIS is why racial profiling is WRONG.

[Placebo]

193. Running While Brown = Death Sentence

At least it seems that way in London right now, since police officers are now being both armed without full training in how to use a firearm correctly, and given orders to shoot to kill.

[Karenina]

189. Maybe in the next days

they'll pump bullets into some bloke from Manchester recently returned from vacation in Trinidad with a gorgeous tan...

[Placebo]

197. "We have reason to believe he was linked to the terrorist attacks."

They'll say. :grr:

[lumpy]

190. Sounds like home,

convolute, dispute, and don't give a hoot. Mr. Blair kept updated, but it's a police problem and ready to take a few at his country estate.

[Placebo]

194. Always conveniently "on vacation"...

these tough "Terror Fighters" like Bush and Blair are, when the shit really hits the fan. :puke:

[NNN0LHI]

192. OK, here we go...

Even though the "should not have shot the guy" posters have given the better argument for their position in this thread, considering everything that had happened in the past fortnight or so in England, I can't say the police did the wrong thing under the circumstances.

Yes even though this is tragic as hell and I wish it never would have happened there was little else to do here. Put yourself into these policemen's shoes and ask yourself what you would have done in this situation once. There were not a whole lot of options here.

Don

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

199. NO

They had caught him and they had him down. They COULD have immobilized him. Well, I guess they did, permanently.

They've been given the power to shoot. And shoot they did. And it was wrong.

[NNN0LHI]

202. I said you all had the better arguments in this thread

Now quit fucking yelling at me.

Don

[kestrel91316]

219. I don't see anybody "fucking yelling" at you ...................

YET.

But keep it up and we'll see.

[muriel_volestrangler]

216. Down is not immobilized

If you've never been in a game where people struggle (wrestling, rugby, british bulldog), or you've never been in a real fight invovling struggling, you may not realise that, just because there's someone on your back, that doesn't mean your arms can't move. Yes, 3 men should be able to immobilise one man within about 5 seconds, but it would only take him a couple of seconds to detonate a bomb on him, if he had one. That's how they'd be thinking by that stage.

[daleo]

195. Yesterday a terrorist under direct surveillance with a suicide bomb belt

Today, a Brazilian (Jean Charles de Menezes, 27) with no bomb.

Possibly he was a tourist, possibly he couldn't speak English. Probably he was terrified by plainclothes police yelling and pointing guns at him - he wouldn't know they were police because they were in plainclothes.

He hadn't just left a den of terrorists, but rather a block of flats. His unseasonable choice of clothes was probably because warm London weather is like cool Brazilian weather.

I know most of this is speculation, but so was everything the police said yesterday.

[muriel_volestrangler]

207. He could speak good English

Mr Alves said his cousin had lived in London legally for three years and was heading to his job when he was killed. Mr Menezes was an electrician, he said.

Mr Menezes was from the Brazilian southeastern state of Minas Gerais.

Another cousin, Aleide de Menezes, said Jean Charles de Menezes spoke English very well and would have understood police instructions, CBN radio reported.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16032151-23109,00.html

[Henny Penny]

213. If this report is correct then we have to ask...

why did this happen??

Was a warning really given?
Was the guy.... deaf?
Mentally ill?
Guilty of something completely different?
Spooked (no pun intended..) into behaving the way he seems to have done.

(I have only heard witness accounts of the coup de grace and not of the beginning of the chase)

[muriel_volestrangler]

222. Challenged in the foyer of the station, it seems

But one of the those leads seems to have been terribly, tragically wrong. At 9am on Friday morning, Brazilian Joao Alves Menezes, 26, walked out of one of the addresses under surveillance and headed to a south London bus stop. Undercover armed police raced to underground stations along the bus route. At about 10am, he walked into Stockwell tube station and was told to stop by police. Instead of raising his hands, he made a run for it, vaulting over the ticket barrier and racing down the escalator. Armed police were just feet behind him as he sprang through the doors of a waiting train on one of the platforms.

http://www.sundayherald.com/50938

[jmc777]

226. They thought he might be a suicide bomber, and yet......

Brazilian Joao Alves Menezes, 26, walked out of one of the addresses under surveillance and headed to a south London bus stop.



......they let him get on a bus even though there has been one successful, and one failed, bus bombing over the past couple of weeks.

[daleo]

228. That is a good point

It isn't 100 pct clear from the passage that he did ride the bus (to me anyway), but it certainly seems to imply that. If so, it doesn't jibe with their purported fear that he might detonate a bomb.

[jmc777]

229. I've heard it said more than once today....

....in interviews on the news, that he did get on a bus.

Here's some proof.


http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1190065,00.html

He caught a bus to Stockwell Tube where he was challenged by officers, who told him to stop. The man then bolted down an escalator, according to witnesses.

[daleo]

230. Proof noted.

There seems to be no doubt that the police allowed him to board a bus without interference.

[daleo]

223. If he was a legal immigrant and fluent in English

And probably not a Muslim (having a hispanic name and being from Brazil would make me think so), then the whole event becomes stranger yet.

I suppose he might have just panicked, like people sometimes do when confronted by authority figures. Or, the police version of events may be lacking in some important details.

On edit - Police accounts sometimes do leave out important details, which are revealed in trials or inquests. That is why due process is essential. I certainly hope their is a full inquest, including legal testimony, in this case.

[mbperrin]

208. I'm thinking from reading all the "Stop when anyone, even someone

in plain clothes carrying guns yells, Police, stop!" that a dandy way to commit armed robbery would be to pull the gun out into plain view, wearing regular clothes, yell Stop, Police! and take every dime they've got!

Sweet!

There actually are reasons dating far far back why uniforms and official attire are really good ideas....

And I am sure that when anyone who supports this sort of action finds themselves (to their surprise) shot five times till thoroughly dead, that they will be thankful it was neat and clean and will have instructed their families that all is well, that the STATE is safe.

Right?

[muriel_volestrangler]

218. If someone yelled at me "stop, I'm an armed robber"

I'd stop too. The difference might be how quickly bystanders realised it was a robbery.

[mbperrin]

231. And then the robber could pump five bullets into you...

not really sure this is a great survival tactic, but maybe in your area, you never had anyone impersonating a policeman who was really a rapist?

[muriel_volestrangler]

244. Well, I haven't heard of any robber impersonating an armed policeman

in my country, no. But do you think that a robber is more likely to shoot someone cooperating, or someone who's running away? I'd say the latter.

If someone said they were the police, and pointed a gun at me, in the middle of the day, in London, I'd believe them automatically. If you gave me a minute to think about it, I might start to doubt it.

[mbperrin]

261. Here's some:

http://sec-global.com/services/ctp/vsg/news/030915.html

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-710.ZO.html

and 5,010 more when you Google "cop impersonator commits crime."

[muriel_volestrangler]

287. But not in my country

I live in the UK.

[fedsron2us]

200. Another victim of the war on terror

and another hopeless failure by the British security services. First, they completely failed to spot the original attacks coming and now. when they have some decent leads, they can not seem to identify the potential terrorists from the rest of the population. Since this poor sods address was under surveillance you would have thought they might have applied some more sophisticated technology to find out who was in the property and what they were doing. I wonder whether the victim is part of the population of Brazilian illegal immigrants who work in Londons hotel and catering trades. If he was then he may not have had that great a grasp of the English language and he may have run from the police because he was afraid of deportation. As a Briton it would be comforting to think that this was a tragic event that just arose out of the confusion and paranoia following the recent terrorist incidents. Unfortunately, the Metropolitan police have made a bit of a habit of gunning down innocent members of the public in recent years even when their is no security alert in operation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3965207.stm

This is just a huge propaganda gift to those who organised the recent bomb attacks.

At the moment the terrorists are winning hands down.


On edit - I see my assumption about his immigration status was wrong It appears that he was a legally in the country and spoke passable English. Why he ran from the police on the street into the Underground is a puzzle. Trying to make a get away on the Tube was a fatal mistake because that probably convinced the cops that he was a suicide bomber about to attack the trains. In those circumstances it seems that their instructions are to shoot first and ask questions later. Indeed, it seems that the police were so jumpy that they even held a gun to the head of the driver of the tube train as he tried to escape the station

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1669482005

Given that this poor man was legally resident and employed the authorities should have known all about him. This makes the intelligence failure and the subsequent killing even worse.

[WinkyDink]

234. "Londoners", yes

But the police victim was Brazilian.

ETA: Yeah, I GET it already. Better safe than sorry. Kill before they do. Let God sort them out.
I'd add "totalitarian".

[Warren Stupidity]

235. Hey Tony

Tell me again how this is a war of the civil against the uncivil?

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fedsron2us]

247. Of course there is no such thing as American racist paranoia

[newyorican]

245. Seconds to decide if suspect is suicide threat

Special armed squad first to use tactics developed with Israeli aid

A senior Metropolitan police source with knowledge of firearms procedures said of the shooting at Stockwell: "This was an intelligence led operation, within the parameters of Kratos." Officially the Met will not talk about Kratos, but the tactics have been in place for a year and were developed after British officers learnt from their Israeli counterparts how best to tackle suicide bombers.

-snip-

On top of this, police know they cannot be seen to be heavy-handed with people from Muslim communities - not just because of civil rights, but because investigators believe the communities must be reassured that the police are on their side, so they will pass on any information on terrorism that may come their way. The shooting yesterday showed the dynamic at work. The moderate Muslim Council of Britain was deeply concerned. Its spokesman, Inayat Bunglawala, said: "From his press conference Ian Blair seemed to imply that the man shot dead was not one of the four attempted suicide bombers. That increases the urgency of the question of why this man was shot dead as opposed to being disabled or arrested. There may be good reason, but the police need to explain what their reasons are. There has been a marked increase of nervousness among Muslims today"

Massoud Shadjareh of the Islamic Human Rights Commission said: "We have raised concerns about the Met sending officers to learn from the Israelis about suicide bombers. They have a policy of assassinating people - why should our police learn these tactics and these values?"

read more...
------------------------------------------

Gee, where do we send the Thank You note?

[moondust]

249. The gamble.

In this climate I don't think police can afford to gamble that somebody who exhibits behavior consistent with that of a suicide bomber on a mission is not just that. They'd be gambling not just with their own lives but with the public's as well. The public may need to be educated on this.

[MisterP]

251. so they couldn't let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud, in effect...

[bassman79]

252. I hope you don't ever wind up on a subway with an overcoat

You might get thrown to the ground and exectued military-style with five taps to the head. Of course, that would be perfectly alright and reasonable given the drastic circumstances we face...

[moondust]

254. If I jumped a turnstile

and ran after some people in black coats identifying themselves as POLICE! yelled clearly in my direction to FREEZE! I would expect to be shot dead and later receive a Darwin award.

[Warren Stupidity]

255. What we do know

is that this poor fellow was pinned down on the floor and shot in the head. He was executed. Keep defending that. Keep coming up with reasons why it is ok for the police to summarily execute prisoners, keep rationalizing what was displayed in that iconic photo of the street execution of a viet cong suspect in saigon so many years ago. Keep telling yourself that we do not live in a fascist police state. By all means invent lots of reasons why it was ok for this to happen. Sleep well xap.

[bassman79]

256. I think we should just give up or freedom and turn in our guns

Hate to do it, but we gotta fight dem A-rab terrorists....

[Name removed]

259. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

260. Really? You would expect to be executed on the spot for failure

to obey a police order? What country do you live in? Does it have a functioning criminal justice system?

[LisaL]

275. So, wearing a coat should make anyone a target?

What behavior is consistent with being a suicide bomber? Coat? Backpack? Being non-white?
Well, the police could be shooting many people I ride on the bus with, if that is the case.

[wolvesslasher]

266. Maybe this is part of the Suicide Bombers plan

Maybe this guy was a part of their group and instead of him killing himself with a bomb he agreed to make himself as suspiciuos as possible so that the police would shoot him. Then when it turns out he doesn't have a bomb, the public turns on the police. So next time someone with a
BOMB does the same thing the police will be less likely to shoot so BLAAMM!!! The person detonates the bomb.

[LisaL]

269. This guy was from Brazil. Police says he wasn't connected, get it?

His only crime was wearing a coat. I didn't know that wearing a coat was a death penalty offense.

[mbperrin]

271. Cause if it is, bunch a Londoners are in for it.

Go to the webcam here and check out the 24 time lapse version. Bunches of people wearing coats, jackets, sweaters, and some in short sleeves. I mean, 1/2 or more of these people are wearing some kind of protection from chill.

http://www.earthcam.com/uk/england/london/archive.php

Back home in Texas, we call what that Brazilian got "running while brown" (or "running while black" on the Gulf Coast). Except that even there, five in the back would be quite notable.....

[LisaL]

277. Obviously. And the guy is from Brazil, so I imagine

London weather seemed cold to him.
There is a bunch of students here taking a bus with me. They are non-white, have back packs and wear coats. Police can have a field day!

[wolvesslasher]

272. He wasn't one of the suspected bombers from Thursday

That doesn't mean he wasn't a part of the group planning the bombings.
There could be hundreds of people in the group. He just wasn't one of the attempted suicide bombers from Thursday's failed bombings. How do the police know who is a part of their group, and how many people are in the group?
Wearing a heavy jacket isn't a crime, but running from the police is.

[mbperrin]

273. If you knew they were police, that might be one thing.

Armed men in street clothes with weapons, shouting at you, inclines me to pick up the pace!

But, what do I know? There were half a dozen murders within 2 hours drive of here committed by people disguised as police.....

[rooboy]

284. Running from the police is not a crime punishable by death.

Even if you are a Brazilian electrician NOT carrying a bomb.

[Matilda]

290. And one shot at close range is enough to kill.

It's about the FIVE shots - panic, anger, frustration, paranoia -
who knows? But when it's highly trained cops over-reacting, that
is a very big worry for innocent civilians.

Police are not supposed to panic.

[daleo]

289. How do we know you aren't part of the plan as well

I mean, 9 posts, including one that seems too absurd to believe - maybe your theory is somehow involved as well.

[classics]

270. 187

Plain and simple.

Now we get to see if the UK will follow the US into its militaristic police force madness. If they let the cops go, its all over for you people in the UK, get used to a police state for you and your children.

[Moderator]

291. Lock

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