US equates war on terror with major world conflicts

[maddezmom]

23 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (AFP) - The administration of US President George W. Bush unveiled a new vision of its war on terror, casting it as a "war of ideas" comparable to the fight against Nazism and Communism rather than a hunt for a network of radical "evil doers."

The analysis delivered by national security adviser Stephen Hadley and Frances Fragos Townsend, the top presidential homeland security aide, followed a series of new bombing attempts in London, which produced no victims but set the British capital further on edge.

The incidents echoed the attack on three subway stations and a London bus two weeks ago that claimed at least 56 lives.

Writing in The New York Times, Hadley and Townsend said the London attacks had made it clear that radical Islamists were "determined to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule."

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050723/pl_afp/usattacksideology_050723183646

[RPM]

1. ass

:eyes:

[maddezmom]

2. looks like the last throes are going to last a long, long time

~snip~

Distancing themselves from previous statements about winning the war on terror, the officials acknowledged that the "ideological contest" at hand "can be a long and difficult one" because, as they put it, "even bankrupt ideas have attracted followers for a time."

~snip~

The assessment contrasted with earlier portrayals of the war on terror by President Bush and other members of his administration, who had insisted terrorist attacks were being perpetrated by "evil doers" hiding in caves in Afghanistan and other parts of the Muslim world.

It suggested acknowledgement that Osama bin Laden and other radical Islamic leaders had a much broader base of support than Washington had thus far been willing to let on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[RPM]

6. yup

some times i cant tell whether they are liars or incredibly incompetent.

but they are one or the other - neither of which is good.

but at least gays cant marry and there is no oral sex in the oval office :eyes:

[MadisonProgressive]

56. When is oral sex not 'all good'?

We lost the republic over a fucking blowjob!

[54anickel]

14. Oh BS, they didn't have that "broader base" until we decided to f'ing

"liberate" Iraq from it's resources. :eyes:

If they are going to bring up Nazism, it looks even applicable to the Neo-cons. Look in a mirror, fascist morans!

[mike_c]

3. omfg, those pea-brained pissants will corrupt ANYTHING...

...in their quest for legitimacy.

[bluestateguy]

4. World War II analogies are a common neoconservative tactic of argument

World War II analogies

In foreign policy neoconservatives have a tendency to view the world in 1939 terms, comparing adversaries as diverse as the Soviet Union, Osama bin Laden, and China to Nazi Germany, while American leaders such as Reagan and Bush stand in for Winston Churchill. There is also a tendency to accuse leftists, and others who oppose them as being appeasers and/or Anti-American. The fullest account of this is Donald and Frederick Kagan's While America Sleeps, the entirety of which is dedicated to these comparisons.

In addition, neoconservatives have a very strong belief in the ability to install democracy by conquest - comparisons with denazification in Germany and Japan starting in 1945 are often made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States#World_War_II_analogies


If they want to live the 1940's over again, bring it on! Raise taxes through the roof! Bring back the draft! Ration food, gasoline, rubber, metal, aluminum! No production of luxury good--all factories should be converted into defense plants, under strict government supervision! Young children collecting aluminum cans and tin cups for war materials!

[RPM]

7. Amen - real war means real sacrifice

if they want a real war bring back the 50% marginal rate.

besides we could all learn to do some gardening with peak oil right around the corner

[madrchsod]

5. visions based on delusional madmen

the real hidden terror in this world is the untold millions that die or injured by wars and chemical pollution but in the delusional world of the madmen these are "expectable losses". if 10 or 20% of the worlds population is dead then it`s just culling the herd to them. but this method is not real tidy....just wait till the genetic wars start

[madaboutharry]

8. No one is listening anymore

This is so old and tired.

[rodeodance]

24. but people will listen you can be sure of that.

[CJCRANE]

9. Crap.

So far there are only a handful of confirmed bombers (in UK). Even if there are up to 200 active al-Qaeda members in UK (or US) I don't think they are going to "to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule".

It takes a little bit more than a few nutters to do that.

[Frederik]

12. I know of some other people

who are far more likely to "destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule". Some of them are dangerously close to the White House.

[soulcore]

31. off topic, i know

but what exactly is the pic in your sig line from, and where might a find a higher rez version or a poster to purchase.

says it all IMHO.

[Frederik]

42. Found it at

www.sanderhicks.com

I think you can order the poster from the site.

[burrowowl]

44. And in

the WH!

[Zorra]

10. This "New Vision" of theirs was obviously seen through a recently drained

bottle of 101 proof Wild Turkey.

Next they will have visions of Elvis crossing the Potomac on a pink elephant.

Who are the people that swallow this ridiculous crap? And where are they?

I really want to know, because I need to sell some copies of my new diet book.

It's called "Zorra's Guide To Losing Pounds By Not Eating Anything At All". (Only $59.99, and I'll even pay the tax!)

This diet is guaranteed to work, and there is a double your money back guarantee if it doesn't.

[Scurrilous]

15. "Who are the people that swallow this ridiculous crap?"

"And where are they?"

Psssssssst...over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x96468

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

26. Yes. Our way is right. Manifest Destiny. The Homeland must prevail.

We need oil. The US must conquer the world and establish a worldwide empire to make the world safe and free. Western corporations must have free reign to control all governments worldwide.

So, ok, we have established the legitimacy of our position.

Now, what we need to figure out is:

"Why, exactly, are Middle Eastern terrorists attacking western nations?

Do they hate us for our freedom?
:shrug:
"Our ideas must win for the sake of the world"

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enraged_Ape]

33. "An intolerant fascist?'

If the shoe fits, wear it.

Just in case you weren't paying attention, Iraq DIDN'T attack us. We up and attacked them, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on even years later, since the Bush administration keeps changing them on almost a daily basis, because they know they are 100% full of it.

And if you think we really have a liberal democracy in this country, you're still reading at the first-grade level.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w13rd0]

45. I'm looking over...

...your posts in various threads, and I'm sensing at the very least, a bit of Joementum...

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. And looking at his profile now, I'm sensing

an ex-disruptor, that has ceased to be. Your analysis looks good.

[Zorra]

46. All wars are wars of ideas. And there is always one primary idea behind

war, and it has been this way since Grok first clubbed Pog over the head:

Primary idea:

You have something that I want, and I am going to take it from you even if I have to kill you for it.

Secondary idea:

I am going to protect what I have from those that are trying to take it from me.

Isn't it way past time that we evolved beyond this republican like, basic elementary level of existence?

[davekriss]

48. Well what do you (forever free) make of this, then?

You know who George Kennan is, right? You understand his influence? Then what do you make of this:

The US has about 50% of the world’s wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming, and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives.

We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism and world benefaction. We should cease talks about such vague and unreal objectives as human rights and raising of living standards and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.
-- George Kennan, PPS 23, 1948

USG foreign policy is in major part about punishing those that show signs of opting out of neo-liberal arrangements that benefit our owning class (this the legacy of Nitze, Kennan, et alia). We don't invade Panama, escort a leader out of Haiti at gunpoint, mine the harbors of Nicaragua, nor illegally and immorally attack Iraq because anyone perceives them, in themselves, to be a geniune threat. It's all about crushing the example of alternate models. The capitalist says Greed is Good in one breath and whispers apathy is better in the next -- all the more easy to exploit the rascal multitudes when they have no hope for a better future!

Yehoshaphat Harkabi, the former head of Israeli military intelligence, is quoted in a 2002 Chomsky article to say: "To offer an honourable solution to the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination: that is the solution of the problem of terrorism." He goes on: "When the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes." I assert this applies to the problem of terrorism in general.

Chomsky goes further to say that President Eisenhower asked the "Why do they hate us?" question 44 years ago (refering to the people in the region). The answer (from Eisenhower's NSC) was because the USG supports corrupt and oppressive governments around the oil spigot and stands clearly opposed to political or economic progress in favor of stability (a stability that advances the interests of the owning class, of course -- the rest of us are just so much cannon fodder). Can you tell me what's changed?

What have we done to drain the swamps? So there are these mosquitoes. And you drink the koolaid about vanguarding Democracy around the globe. Have you read the fine print in the NSS (the formal announcement of the Bush Doctrine available at whitehouse gov)? It implies that we will send our sons and daughters to war to ensure low marginal tax rates!!

The word is "i m p e r i a l i s m" and the call to spread democracy is just this century's version of the White Man's Burden. In the case of the Bush regime, the emperor wears no clothes -- they're just not very good at disguising their intent.

[pinkpops]

19. I don't know --- how many pages is it?

[Zorra]

22. It's all easy to follow pictures, and there are very few pages.

Written instructions are available for an additional $29.95.

Working on the DVD idea.

[Frederik]

11. War of Ideas

How fucking Orwellian is that? What does this war encompass? Is Iraq a part of the War of Ideas? Where else is it fought? With what means? Is America a nation at war? Or not? Or just when it is convenient to say it is? (we shouldn't criticize the president in wartime...) How do we know when the war is over? How do we know who won?

[CJCRANE]

13. Yeah,

that's what worries me when people like Blair and Condi Rice say that we have to replace their ideology with our ideology. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought that democracy wasn't an ideology but a system of representation...

[rodeodance]

25. this speech IS different --see below.

....The White House officials also vowed to overcome what they called "America's mixed record on supporting freedom in the Middle East" when a succession of US governments promoted stability in the region at the expense of democracy.

The assessment contrasted with earlier portrayals of the war on terror by
President Bush and other members of his administration, who had insisted terrorist attacks were being perpetrated by "evil doers" hiding in caves in
Afghanistan and other parts of the Muslim world.

It suggested acknowledgement that
Osama bin Laden and other radical Islamic leaders had a much broader base of support than Washington had thus far been willing to let on.

Hadley and Townsend urged Americans and their allies to "bring all of the tools of statecraft, economic influence and private enterprise to bear in this war."

[davekriss]

49. that is interesting

"The White House officials also vowed to overcome what they called 'America's mixed record on supporting freedom in the Middle East' when a succession of US governments promoted stability in the region at the expense of democracy"

See this in the context of my post above (#48). They are drawing the same conclusion as Eisenhower's NSC in 1958. Lil' slow they are, huh?

One of the first things I'd recommend to Hadley and Townsend, if they indeed were signaling a just and fair turn in policy, is to then stop calling it a "war". I think what underlies their message is a change in tactics, not objectives -- which continue to be to secure and continue the advantage of the transnational owning class at any public cost.

...same as it ever was...

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. "War" is to Bush what "jihad" is to bin Laden

An attempt to use language to make themselves the leader in a situation they both claim demands special power, ignoring 'civilised' behaviour towards the 'enemy', and quashing dissent on their own sides.

Bush called himself a 'war president' - because he's such a pathetic leader that he needs a situation in which the American opposition needs to shut up. I don't think he'll ever give up the word. I'm afraid that whichever Republican gets the 2008 nomination will run on 'war' too. I hope the American public will see through the deception by then.

I might believe Hadly and Townsend are well-meaning if they get the Bush regime to stop treating Hugo Chavez as if he's a dictator, when he has a better claim to being a democrat than Bush does.

[phiddle]

16. If it IS a war of ideas,

then why are we fighting it with guns?
And why are we destroying our inteeligence capabilities?

[pinkpops]

17. Consult a bloney (bologna) detector

http://creationsafaris.com/crevbd.htm

Scroll down to the definitions.

Alexander the Great was a great general. Great generals are forewarned. Forewarned is forearmed. Four is an even number. Four is certainly an odd number of arms for a man to have. The only number that is both even and odd is infinity. Therefore, Alexander the Great had an infinite number of arms.

[HereSince1628]

18. I believe the proper word is "conflate"

[rodeodance]

20. these descriptions sould like a bush cabal to me.

........Writing in The New York Times, Hadley and Townsend said the London attacks had made it clear that radical Islamists were "determined to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule."

They said this vision was reminiscent of Nazi and Communist totalitarian systems, in which a radical few subjugated the helpless many.

"At its root, the struggle is an ideological contest, a war of ideas that engages all of us, public servant and private citizen, regardless of nationality," the Bush advisers went on to say.

[rodeodance]

23. "The terrorist hard-core is beyond appeal and must be hunted, captured or

Killled"------

....."At its root, the struggle is an ideological contest, a war of ideas that engages all of us, public servant and private citizen, regardless of nationality," the Bush advisers went on to say.

Distancing themselves from previous statements about winning the war on terror, the officials acknowledged that the "ideological contest" at hand "can be a long and difficult one" because, as they put it, "even bankrupt ideas have attracted followers for a time."

They insisted a successful war on terror will require force of arms as well as strong allies in the Muslim world.

"The terrorist hard-core is beyond appeal and must be hunted, captured or killed," wrote Hadley and Townsend. "The sanctuary provided by sympathetic governments willing to look the other way when terrorist training camps are set up within their borders can be denied through military action."

[54anickel]

37. Ewwww, Pakistan on deck?

"The sanctuary provided by sympathetic governments willing to look the other way when terrorist training camps are set up within their borders can be denied through military action."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1647273

Terrorist camps thriving
Operating under new names and with the implicit approval of the Pakistani military, schools that train jihadists are an open secret

July 22, 2005

PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- As President Pervez Musharraf renews his crackdown on Muslim militant factions after this month's terrorist bombings in London, new evidence has emerged that Pakistan has continued to let such groups run military-style camps to train guerrilla fighters.

For years, the camps have been only half a secret.

"Everybody has known they were there, but no one would officially admit it," said a Pakistani official who was interviewed recently and requested anonymity. "And they were kept hidden; no ordinary people could go there."

Inconveniently for the government, the camps have gotten a bit more public in recent weeks, in Pakistan's press and a U.S. courtroom. (There has been no suggestion that the London bombers attended any such camp.)

[54anickel]

34. This is probably a stretch, but, is this somehow to come up with yet

another justification for Shrub's Iraq Adventure? Could it be that the Fitzgerald investigation and the DSM have got them "thinking" ahead a bit again. (Nevermind that there were no terrorists in Iraq before we "liberated" them.)

I think they are getting desperate enough to try such a ploy. This could become the justification of all current and future misadventures while trying to dispell the notion that the London bombings were related to the UK's involvement in Iraq. :shrug:

[flaminbats]

35. uhgg..ideas don't fight wars, people do!

I have an idea..let's put jews into concentration camps, starve them, rape them, and mass murder them!! Only snotty, rich Republicans could view this as a war of ideas..war is nothing more than murder, and genuine intelligence has no part in bloodshed.

[davekriss]

51. And not usually the sons and daughters of the country club set

People rarely win wars, governments rarely lose them. People get killed. Governments molt and regroup, hydra-headed. They first use flags to shrink-wrap peoples' minds and suffocate real thought, and then as ceremonial shrouds to cloak the mangled corpses of the willing dead.
-- Arundhati Roy

[davekriss]

50. Do Hadley and Townsend really think...

...that Islamist intent is to install Ayatollehs in Kansas?

[bvar22]

27. OK Lets equate the bush* War with WWII

Who is pre-emptively attacking and occupying other countries that pose NO REAL THREAT?


Which country has LIED in World Forums, and broken long standing Treaties?

Which country has turned its back on World opinion, and launched aggressive Wars of Occupation?

[MisterP]

28. yeah, just like WWII: the Allies Canada, Russia, China, and France vs.

the Axis Italy, Thailand, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and Japan--wait, that's the arrangement for the Invasion of Iraq!

[Mr_Spock]

30. They have a funny mental disorder.

I wish I could think of the name of it - but it relates to small penises and wanting to make a compensating mark on the world. These people are dangerous because their emotional center is off kilter - they do not use reason to make their decisions. DANGER! DANGER! DANGER! Watch these people and whatever you do don't let them achieve any sort of power!!

[Glenda]

39. "pennis microscopitis?"

:D

[Solly Mack]

32. hmmmm...same shit, different words

"determined to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule."

that's just a long winded version of "they hate us for our freedoms"

Speaking of "dictatorial and theocratic rule", in regards to the "war of ideas", is just another way of saying "cultural war" (it's the language he uses in his cultural war he is waging on Americans) and "crusade"....it's Bush Inc's idea of dictatorial and theocratic rule (white, male and Christian) pitted against anyone else who happens to be handy.......

by "radical Islamists", they just mean evil doers

It's still the same old bullshit

[54anickel]

38. Nice analysis...n/t

[trapper914]

58. If That's The Case, They've Already Won

"determined to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule."

Lessee...

Patriot Act
Gay Marriage debate
Terri Schiavo debate featuring Jeb, James Dobson, and Randall Terry
"People need to watch what they say"
Nuclear Option
Government funded studies altered to reflect the administration line
Government money for propaganda disguised as news reports
Government money for furthering agendas through radio hosts


Yep...we don't want any of that!

[Solly Mack]

59. He hasn't won yet. But he has packed a powerful punch

[leesa]

40. Except that they ARE the Nazis. It's an arms sale like the War Against

Communism or the War Against Drugs. Strictly a false concept that allows them to loot, murder and steal from countries of their choosing and sell tons of arms which will be used in future wars. Same old con job.

[mbperrin]

41. Uh-oh! If this is a war of IDEAS,

these jokers have been out of ammo for a long time....


Luckily, they have virtually unlimited numbers of bullets and bombs!

IDEAS? We don't need no stinkin' ideas!

[Rex]

43. That is what these corporate pirates want!

Another unending war that will drain the public coffers (and place the money into the hands of defense contractors). Bush & crew are the biggest terrorists on the planet!

[daleo]

47. They don't care about the west, as long as we leave them alone.

Sure they wouldn't mind it if everyone converted to their version of Islam, but the same can be said of Christians who wish the entire world would embrace Christianity. This is a nonsensical comparison.

[truthisfreedom]

53. ideas, he says? since when has he used his brain? and i don't mean rove.

lil' g has no brain. no ideas. he's a meanie, and he simply f***s with people.

[MadisonProgressive]

55. So we are at war with an 'idea'???

:wtf:

[tanyev]

57. Let's just change one word:

radical Christians were "determined to destroy our way of life and substitute for it a fanatical vision of dictatorial and theocratic rule."

so-called, self-described Christians, that is.