Jane Fonda to Oppose Iraq War on Bus Tour

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.18558.html

Jane Fonda to Oppose Iraq War on Bus Tour

Actress and activist Jane Fonda says she intends to take a cross-country bus tour to call for an end to U.S. military operations in Iraq.

"I can't go into any detail except to say that it's going to be pretty exciting," she said.

Fonda said her anti-war tour in March will use a bus that runs on "vegetable oil." She will be joined by families of Iraq war veterans and her daughter.

<</SNIP>>

[redwitch]

1. this oughta be popular!

n/t

[bribri16]

86. She was right about Viet Nam; she is right about Iraq.

Just what would we have "won" had we been victorious in Viet Nam? What would be different now? And if different, would it be better? How? Were the lives of 58,000 Americans and untold innocent Vietnamese worth it no matter what the outcome?

[renaissanceguy]

110. "How can you ask him to be the last man

to die for a MISTAKE." If only Kerry would have the balls he did when he said that.



http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues/472476

[ElsewheresDaughter]

113. yes she was and yes she is...i support Jane Fonda

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

158. And her conversion?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/009/22.27.html

:evilgrin:

[BikeWriter]

175. I missed where she ever converted from her belief in communism.

On November 21, 1970 she told a University of Michigan audience of some two thousand students, "If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism. " Washington Times July 7, 2000 http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

[Toots]

117. She was right in her opinion about Vietnam but not her actions

I do not hold a grudge against her because I know in her heart all she wanted to do was save young men's lives and get them home. HOWEVER it was a very foolish thing to pose with a uniformed enemy of your country. VERY FOOLISH. I am sure she has realized that and will never repeat such an idiocy.

[niceypoo]

124. She blew it

I agree her heart was in the right place but when she posed sitting in an anti-aircraft gun with North Vietnamese soldiers she forever made herself the issue. Its time for someone from THIS generation to take the baton. I just hope she doesnt make appearances wearing a suicide belt or something stupid like that.

[Mr. Peanut]

159. Different this time for Jane

because in Iraq we have an all-volunteer army.

[Mixxster]

2. Talk about courage.

Considering all the abuse she's taken over the years about her anti-war stance, even after her apology, I can't believe she's going to do this.

[Strawman]

3. Coming soon to a bumper sticker near you

I respect her for doing this, but this will just be fodder. But who cares I guess. Anyone who is going to get all wound up about this was not going to be open minded on the war anyway.

[getmeouttahere]

4. Yes, courage is the first word that came to mind...

I already have a lot of her films on DVD, got the book, just love this woman. So strong in the face of so much hatred.

[Jack Rabbit]

5. I appreciate the lady's passion and commitment, but . . .

EDITED for grammar

Jane Fonda has over the years from time to time has shown a susceptibility to foot-in-mouth disease.

Having been an opponent of the US war against Vietnam, I wanted to put a paper bag over my head when Ms. Fonda declared returning POWs speaking of being tortured in North Vietnamese camps were liars. Also, many aspects of her trip to North Vietnam during the war were beyond the pale.

As a private citizen (albeit a less public personality than she), I agree on general principle with Ms. Fonda on many things. However, I would hope that she has learned by now that she should do her homework before speaking out on details.

[iamjoy]

7. She May Do More Harm Than Good

It is not just that the Neo-Cons hate her, some of them are creeps who have disdain for all peace activist. But, a lot of people still think Jane Fonda is a traitor for what she did in Vietnam. While I wouldn't necessarily go tht far, I am not sure I can blame them for the way they feel.

My dad for example is by no means a neo-con (or peace activist, either, more of a moderate) and he can't stand Jane Fonda for her heartlessness in the face of American POWs.

So, what does she hope to accomplish by this?

[Jack Rabbit]

11. Exactly

Her 1972 trip to Hanoi really did nothing to further opposition to the war. It was a little late to have much effect. The number of US troops in Vietnam by that time had been reduced from its high point; this removed the war as a major issue in the 1972 presidential election.

Ms. Fonda's trip was a public relations disaster for the anti-war movement that pains progressives to this day. Rather than focusing on lives lost and the damage US bombing was doing to the Vietnamese economy, Ms. Fonda's trip focused on an American venturing into the land of what was putatively an enemy. The focus was and remains on her and allowed the right wing attack machine (no, Karl Rove didn't invent it) to smear the anti-war movement as unpatriotic.

One of the worst ways to draw attention to a set of facts is to send a movie star out to talk about it. The question her trip should have raised was: What is happening in Vietnam? Instead, the question that was raised was: What is Jane Fonda doing in Vietnam?

[maryallen]

45. Is that you, Ed Schultz?

Mr. "I'm a progressive ... now?"
That's what he's pushing on his radio show this afternoon.

Shut-up, Ed.
If Jane wants to tour for peace, more power to her.

How I wish more "progressives" were anti-war, stand-up, unashamed, vocal Democrats. Then, there would be a difference between the two parties.
Now there isn't. What we have today is just one big party with the same objectives:

War, war, war, ...

Money, money, money ...

[dhinojosa]

115. LOL!

funny.

[IndyOp]

43. I'm interested...

Could you tell me more about what you mean by this? "Many aspects of her trip to North Vietnam during the war were beyond the pale..."

I was not around when Jane did Vietnam, but there are people in my neck of the red-woods who have "Hanoi Jane" bumper stickers on their pick up trucks.

So, I am interested in knowing what someone who is anti-Vietnam; anti-Iraq war thinks about Fonda.

My hope is that Fonda will use her 'starpower' to attract the crowds and then push Iraq Veterans and their families to the front to speak.

[Jack Rabbit]

53. Ms. Fonda herself has admitted as much

From Wikipedia

Jane Fonda

Fonda's regrets

In 1988, Fonda admitted some regret to former American POWs and their families, stating, "I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families." She stated: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless." On the Charlie Rose programme, Fonda made the distinction that her apology was limited to the photo appearance with the NVA AA-gun, and that she was "proud" of her activism against "the bombing of the dikes" . . . .

In a 60 Minutes interview on March 31, 2005, Jane Fonda says she has no regrets about her trip to North Vietnam in 1972, with one exception: her visit to a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun site. She says the incident that brought her the nickname "Hanoi Jane," was a "betrayal" of American forces and of the "country that gave me privilege." Fonda was quoted as saying "The image of Jane Fonda, `Barbarella,' Henry Fonda's daughter ... sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal ... the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine."

Read more.

[mountainvue]

77. She apologized for that and admitted she

was wrong.

[Jack Rabbit]

80. Noted. See post 53

As much as I'd like to say that's that, you and I both know it isn't. There are many who will never forgive her and use it to smear anything with which she associates herself. In the past, her opponents have been far more effective using such smear tactics than they deserve to be.

It would be better if she took a lower profile.

[BikeWriter]

136. She apologized in 1988, 16 years later, because....

she was making a movie in New England and the movie's production schedule was seriously interrupted by demonstrations from angry Vietnam Veterans.

[Rose Siding]

6. You GO Jane!

:yourock:

[madaboutharry]

8. She is a 68 year old woman with

a lot of water under her bridge. I think she is a much different person than the woman who went to North Vietnam 35 years age. I look forward to this, I believe it will bring a lot more voices out.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. Go ahead. Make Rush's day.

I appreciate that Fonda wants to work against the war, but with her history I would think she would be more effective working behind the scenes on this issue. The residual animosity over her Hanoi Jane episode is too strong, and the RW radio puppet masters will have a field day with this.

Please, Jane. Pick another way to help the cause.

[Jack Rabbit]

13. Agreed

There are amny ways she could serve the cause. The less visibale she is, the better.

[David Zephyr]

70. At least she will be visible.

Are you suggesting that she stand in line behind the thousands of prominent Democrats who are doing so very much every day to end this stupid, illegal war?

Joe Biden, Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein and hundreds like them who are visible every single day have done such an admirable job in opposing this war.

"The cause"? What does that mean? Politics or ending a war?

[Jack Rabbit]

71. Of course not

I am suggesting she stand in line with the millions of not-so-prominent citizens who have spoken out about this stupid, illegal war, but not out in front of them.

Obviously, that doesn't include the three you named. The only thing I want to hear from them and several others is mea culpa.

Jane Fonda makes a very poor lightening rod. That is exactly what she will be.

[joeunderdog]

79. The Pukes have been looking for something visible...

now, KKKarl can breathe a little easier.

The corruption involved in bringing this nation to war is the best advertisement against it. The continued exposure of the criminal extent that ShrubCo has gone to in duping this country for their own agenda deserves sole spotlight. And the media is finally coming around.

Jane Fonda isn't going to "change" any minds. The RW is celebrating her arrival.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

105. At least SOMEONE will be visible

No doubt this will be controversial. But it could also really compel some people to vocalize their opposition to this war as people talk about this controversy.

I do have a concern that it will shift the conversation from the war to Jane Fonda. I guess it will be up to us to see that it doesn't at the water cooler level.

I recently listened to her book and her perspective was interesting. I can't say how diluted it was in being her perspective but I certainly appreciated learning about her motivation. There was so much in that book that I've not heard discussed such as a meeting she initiated with vets in CT. which sounds like a situation in which all parties shared their hurts and experiences and came away with greater compassion and understanding. They actually talked with one another in a meaningful way! I would love to hear if anyone has a perspective to add about that.

At any rate. I love her and appreciate the self exploration she has undertaken and shared in her book. I personally would love to see her protest the War in Iraq.

I also like that her involvement would create a powerful analogy to to the Vietnam War which is seen more clearly now with the benefit of time.

[Andromeda]

169. Yep

n/t

[Zorra]

24. Maybe so. But then again, maybe it is time we stopped cowering in fear

of the RW radio puppetmasters and their poisonous verbal vomit.

Allowing them to define our actions from their fascist sponsored bully pulpit is exactly why they have been hired as propagandists.

They are the aggressors and the killers, making the world more dangerous by the hour. We are trying to stop the aggression and the killing to make the world safer.

The conquest of Iraq will never bring peace. It will cause increased turmoil which will eventually lead to worldwide military escalation and tragic disaster.

Maybe it is possible to make them choke on their own spew.

It could be that Ms. Fonda will draw more attention to the absurdity of this invasion, because of her high profile past. This war is becoming eerily more like the Vietnam conflict every day.

She was justified in opposing the conflict in Vietnam, and she is justified in opposing the conquest of Iraq.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. Maybe, but she is a special case.

She didn't just oppose Vietnam, she took actions that were hopelessly naive and ill considered. As I said before, there is considerable animosity to this day over that. I would never suggest that she can't speak out against the war, only that I do not think she is good choice as a spokesperson. She is political poison on this issue.

We don't need to cower in fear from RW radio but we don't need to make it easy for them either. They aren't going to shut up as long as they have audiences.

[nolabels]

46. It has nothing to do with the size of the audiences

It has to do with who is paying them to say it. They draw some audiance just because they get backfed by it. Facist draw upon fear and hate to make them powerful, feeding them with the idea of payback is where they want you to be. Mostly they are all just scared little boys and girls inside with complex issuses that would take years to sort out

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

106. She was a young woman who took actions

that were "hopelessly naive and ill considered". Like so many of us have. However, the media and government were able to exploit that naivete. She did make some ill considered moves as she acknowledges, has explained and apologized for.

I think the benefit of her age and those earlier choices could make her more effective in speaking out against Iraq.

Let's model a little forgiveness for the Christian Right!

[Cha]

121. I agree with your posts.

Welcome to DU, Pretty_in_CodePink! Love your username.

[BikeWriter]

131. jane was 34 years old when she made her trip to North Vietnam.

[getmeouttahere]

37. Right on, Zorra....

too many DUers are concerning themselves with what the RW POS propogandists think...it's not like you're going to change the minds of anyone who watches Faux News anyway...

Triangulation isn't going to work this time folks...make your voices heard, be a true opposition party...that's what Jane is doing.

[misscoko34]

97. AMEN....amen....amen... THE repukes has called us so many names

that many of us are ashamed to admit our stances in fear of being labeled liberal or what ever! Go Jane Go....it's about time SOMEBODY took a stance...We should be proud of what we are not cower in fear or silent. We are just as guilty as the repukes if we dont stand up and fight them!

At least let them know we were there!

[Cookie wookie]

173. Agreed. It's time we stop letting the bullies

run roughshod over us. They are the traitors and criminals, not us. Fonda made stupid mistakes when she was a young, rash pothead. But the times were like that then, because the troops were blamed for the war as well as those who took us to war.

She's confessed her sins and shown that she truly regrets the wrongs she did.

Rush and all his criminal friends, the right wing corporate media, and all the bullies who are preaching to their fascist followers are supposed to have some link to a moral high ground, and they are awfully big on forgiving the pardoned criminals from the Nixon and Reagan administrations, going so far as to allow those criminals to be in administrative posts in our government.

They are destroying the country, not us. Not Jane Fonda.

It's about time that the 60s antiwar leaders get visible and get out there working to help us end this miserable war and this miserable fascist regime.

[RaRa]

33. True, so I'm hoping for something I normally hate

I hope she pushes her born again beliefs to counteract those RW attacks. Unlikely, I know.

[brainshrub]

101. Right-on.

Even I want to puke when I see those old photos of Hanoi Jane; I can only imagine the pain she must have caused vets.

I don't see her being much of a help in the current crisis.

[BikeWriter]

164. You're right. Her involvement will be divisive and counter productive.

[ptolle]

187. vets

Please sir or madam- qualify your expression- the pain she must have caused some vets. I, like many others I know, sincerely believe that the oath we took upon entering the military which was to the constitution that codifies her right to her opinion. Her manner of expressing that opinion you may disagree with, but I fought and would again for her right to those opinions as I would for your right to yours.

[WilliamPitt]

10. *groan*

I appreciate the sentiment and the effort, but this is red meat for the right. Might as well have Bill Clinton tour the Bible Belt to raise awareness of chastity and fidelity.

Yeesh.

[Toucano]

23. This reaction suprises me.

Are you saying we should only do things that the right approves of?

[WilliamPitt]

26. Yes, that's what I'm saying

:eyes:

Or maybe I'm saying it would be great if we had spokespeople for the movement who do not initiate an immediate, visceral reaction of dislike from millions of people.

[Mz Pip]

30. UnfortunatelyJane Fonda

comes with entirely too much baggage for this to be a good thing.

She became the poster child for everything that went wrong with the anti-Vietnam War movement. She demonized it. Was that fair ? No. But it is what happened.

Now she's back and while I seriously doubt she will be doing a video of having tea with bin Laden, she might as well be for all the polarization this will cause.

I can only imagine the glee that this will be greeted with by the RWers.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

107. Does she get any credit for being right? n/t

[BikeWriter]

126. Was she right when she called our POWs liars and hypocrites?

[ClayZ]

171. She gets credit from me!

She is used as a scapegoat! She is "free to move about the country"!

GO Jane, Go! Protest Jane, Protest!





:kick: NO MORE WAR!

[Jackpine Radical]

31. I side with the opposition to Jane sticking her nose into anything public.

Her "Barbarella Goes to War" act was bad the first time & will only be worse this time. Her presence will help marginalize the antiwar movement.

If I were Karl Rove (& not therefore preoccupied with other things like trying to stay out of jail), I would hire Jane to go to Baghdad with a camera crew.

[DemBeans]

34. I'm afraid I must ask...

The anti-war movement is no longer 'marginalized', it's the majority view - and it's a view that damned few public people are giving a voice to.

If Fonda opposes this war, conscience dictates that she try to do something about it. Or should she just shut up and wait for others to act? I don't think so.

[Jackpine Radical]

41. Fonda can do nothing helpful now.

I don't mean to suggest either that the people opposing the war are marginal...God knows I've been out on the streets myself...nor that we are some sort of small minority. However, the Fascists want nothing more than to attack our patriotism, and Jane got herself labelled, rightly or otherwise, as Hanoi Jane, the woman who sold out our POWs. Maybe it isn't fair, but it's reality. The best thing she can do for the antiwar effort is to keep out of it.

[David Zephyr]

73. Right on!

:thumbsup:

[silvermachine]

176. Have to agree...

...however noble the intention, this is not remotely helpful except to the RW machine.

[anaxarchos]

87. Once upon a time, there was a different man also named William Pitt...

... who defended BOTH the open rebellion of his nation's colonies against his own country and the RIGHT to sympathize with those in such "open rebellion".

On the Stamp Act and the inevitability of rebellion in America, he said:

"They have spoken their sentiments with freedom against this unhappy act, and that freedom has become their crime. Sorry I am to hear the liberty of speech in this house, imputed as a crime. No gentleman ought to be afraid to exercise it. It is a liberty by which the gentleman who calumniates it might have profited, and by which he ought to have profited. He ought to have desisted from this project. The gentleman tells us, America is obstinate; America is almost in open rebellion. I rejoice that America has resisted. Three million of people so dead to all feelings of liberty, as voluntarily to submit to be slaves, would have been fit instruments to make slaves of the rest."

Of course, the elder Pitt may not have known that he was just "playing into the hands" of the Tories...

[WilliamPitt]

94. Whatever

Wax poetic all you like.

A bad spokesperson is a bad spokesperson.

[Toucano]

100. The same argument has been used against Howard Dean.

And Jesse Jackson.

And Hillary Clinton.

:boring:

It's funny I never see the right hesitate to trot out their most controversial spokespeople like Oliver North or Henry Kissinger or Pat Buchanan.

No, we're much more prudent and selective in our representation. We only want our message carried by the most palatable, and uncontroversial individuals. It's brought us this far, hasn't it?

[WhiteTara]

55. I think you underestimate her and

the people who support her. I think this will be very popular and will be effective.
:)

[BikeWriter]

132. I think you underestimate her enemies.

[Piperay]

60. Agree

my first thought was 'oh no, here we go again'. :-(

[K8-EEE]

88. THIS IS WHAT THE F-ING DEMS IN SENATE & CONGRESS SHOULD DO!

So no "groans" for Jane from me. She's right about everything. Pix of her laughing in No V-nam? Well she wasn't laughing at rape, torture, humiliation like what are in those pictures they won't let us see. Show me an image of Jane that's worse than those pictures.

[SlowDownFast]

91. my sentiments too...

she's fodder for the neocons AND the media - as if we didn't already have enough trouble fighting distractions that keep the media and sheeple from focusing on whats REALLY going on...

nothing personal, Jane...

[RetroLounge]

127. et tu Will?

:sigh:

RL

[BikeWriter]

137. I agree with you 100%.

[lateo]

12. Well, it certainly can't hurt her anti-war reputation...

I wish he the best though...she is a very intelligent and brave woman.

[IndianaDemocrat]

44. Anything She Says will Be Outshouted By Viet Vets

This is NOT a good thing, and it is NOTHING but harmful in the long run...

[BikeWriter]

128. I'll ask my PTSD therapy group their opinion.

[VegasWolf]

14. Get ready for all the Baghdad Jane comments now. I'm regaining some

respect for her now after I lost it all with her pathetic
apology on Vietnam. She was right about Vietnam and she is right here.

[shantipriya]

15. Fonda

Why March? Why not next month?

[Neshanic]

16. So her apology for Vietnam...maybe she could use the same..

gig when she's 80 and has a new movie coming out.

She had nothing to apologize for going to Vietnam. So it's the war-du-jour Jane going on a radical road trip with press in tow. What thing will she pose by that can be thrown back up by the RWnuts that gets another apology.

It's ALL about Jane kids. It always has been.

[Baclava]

18. Not totally true

[funkybutt]

17. Nevermind Fonda, check out what Cindy Sheehan is doing

Cindy Sheehan will be riding the "peace train" from New Orleans to D.C. for the September 24-26 protests.

more info at www.newdemocracyrising.com

[Debi]

19. I thought she was friends with the Bushs?

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/antiiraq%20war%20fonda%20impressed%20with%20the%20bushes

[WhiteTara]

57. that's not what I read in the article n/t

[NVMojo]

20. they can never say she is a coward! I love this lady and her courage!

[hopein08]

21. Now that is something to admire...

the right wing press will go on and on ad nauseum about how anti-American, horrible this is to not support the troops, and how Hollywood should stay out of poltics and all that line of whacked out thought (which I don't agree with at all!) but one thing can be said for certain...

they will get her point across one way or another!

It couldn't be better for the end the war supporters.

But I do admire how much flak she's taken (like the spitting veteran on the book tour) and she's still willing to stand up for this.

Not many people who would do it.

[0rganism]

22. A mixed blessing, at best

I mean, I appreciate her intentions, but she's going to be a polarizing figure... no, ostracizing is more like it, she's going to alienate most of the people who know about her activist background, because they heard it from Hannity and Limbaugh.

Not the publicist I would have chosen. Oh well. The biodiesel bus is a nice touch.

[Yavin4]

25. Her Presence Will Hurt The Cause Because It Will Distract From The Message

RWers will use her as a distraction. They will focus on her instead of the message, and that's a real tragedy. Face facts, too many Americans are just plain ignorant and stupid. They don't think. They react. RW radio will get them to react negatively to Jane because of her prior actions in Vietnam.

What's really tragic here is that her presence alone may prolong this war, not end it sooner. That means another son or daughter will be hurt or killed because of this dumb ass war. Just let the families go on the tour. Let their voices be heard.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

109. They won't be able to talk about her

without also mentioning the war. At least then they will be reminded that there is a war going on. Most people that I see continue their daily lives oblivious to the fact of the war. I look forward to my neighbors and acquaintances talking about Jane. That will be a wonderful entree to talk about the war and how many are dead.

[Gemini Cat]

27. I think it's great.

I respect the fact that she is speaking out and using her voice for peace. Just like any citizen can and should do if they are opposed to this war. She's Jane Fonda, but in a crowd she's one of many. There are many of us who oppose this war.

Fonda may have been wrong on some of the things she said and did 35 years ago, but I'm sure she's grown up and won't make the same mistakes again. 35 years is a long time.

As far as the Limbaughs and coulters are concerned, to hell with them. Neither Fonda or anyone should be silenced just because it may give the wing nuts fodder.

[howmad1]

74. THANK YOU, CONFOUND.

Could not agree more. Out in traffic today for about an hour and counted over 100 yellow Chinese made "Support our Troops" stickers. Not one single car had a bumper sticker (except mine) that had any thing like "Bring them home". The silent public outrage from the left is deafening. This bullshit criticism of brave souls like Jane Fonda probably come from folks who would not dare put an "Impeach Bush" sticker on their car for fear of getting it keyed. How brave of you folks criticising her on DU. Please, quit yer bellyaching about Jane. Finally, someone has the guts to show public outrage about this illegitimate war. I wish we had hundreds of Jane Fondas' out there.
Lets hope she gives the majority of her tour to families of Iraq veterans. That certainly will shut up the right-wing-nuts in la-la-land.

[Stephanie]

29. I cannot think of a worse idea

This is the last thing we need.

[staticstopper]

32. Why don't

Ms. Heinze-Kerry, Ms. Clinton, Mr. Ted Kennedy, Mike Moore, The Dixi Chicks, Sean Penn, Jesse Jackson, Susan Sarandon, etc...all join up and get on board and cause the RW to have a meltdown?
Lets get back at them for the outrage fatiuge they've caused us these past few years.

I think it's totally cool, it's not like Paris Hilton or Jennifer Aniston are gonna do it, someone has to.

[Jacobin]

35. Funny how the young posters think you can stop a

neo-con, imperialist war train by being nice and having the 'appropriate' spokespeople.

For those of you too young to remember, the late 1960's and early 1970's consisted of burning down recruitment centers, people being shot in marches, massive bugging and wiretapping, agents provocateur infiltrating the peace movement, thousands fleeing to Canada, the resignation of a sitting fucking president (LBJ didn't re-up).

Grow some 'nads out there. If you want to stop this goddamned travesty get ready for the feces to hit the fan, years and years of pushing against the war machine....

If giving Rush something to talk about freaks you out too much, just get the fuck out of the way, and let someone who cares get this train a movin'

[VegasWolf]

36. Well said! nt

[getmeouttahere]

38. Bravo, Jacobin!!!

I couldn't have said it better if I'd pondered for days!

It should be obvious that the neocons/theocrats don't give a shit what they say about us or anyone or anything. There are some areas where we simply don't need to take the high road...and even if we don't, we'll still be speaking the truth, so what the fuck!

[Jacobin]

49. The silk socking Dems are gonna ruin this party

This damned occupation will keep going as long as the public puts up with it....without massive civil disobedience and screeching from every quarter, it will be going on 10 years from now.

Hell it took 15 fucking years to get the whack jobs to leave Viet Nam

[maryallen]

48. Bravo, Jacobin!!!

Tell it like it is.

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Funny how some posters make assumptions

I suppose I should be flattered that you think I'm too young to know any better, but sorry. Been there, lived it. Are you old enough to remember it first hand? There were violent events as you said, FBI infilitration of peace groups, and many draft dodgers. The anti-war movement took hold when it left the college campuses and became a popular, peaceful movement. That only happened when too many Americans knew too many young men who were serving or who were next in line to be cannon fodder in a conflict that continued to escalate. When clergy, grannies and kids joined the peace marches, the tide turned. It wasn't a violent revolution.

IMHO not wanting Fonda as a spokesperson is not about lack of spine. She will be a distraction. In fact, she is likely to be a major distraction. I can't think of a single person against the war who would provide a bigger distraction. The Swift boat shenanigans will pale against the Vietnam Vets against Hanoi Jane. Do you really think it's a good strategy to let her upstage the Medea Benjamins and politicians on the anti-war side? That is what is at stake.

[Jacobin]

63. Let me put it this way. I was draft age in 1968 at the height

I don't know which Viet Nam war you remember, but the one I remember was not a fucking picnic.

There were the SDS crazies (who tried to recruit me) that were bent on violence and used it to burn things down. Unless this has been wiped from our collective memories, four kids were killed at Kent State while protesting...by the national guard.

The country was absolutely coming apart at the seams. Yes there were non-violent protesters and violent ones, and those opposed who would write the paper and their congressmen, but it took the solidarity of millions of extremely upset americans to stop the madness.

Jane Fonda did her part. I don't care if it pisses people off or not. It got attention for the cause. Guess what? The vietnamese we were fighting were not some evil horde out to take over the world and presented absolutely no threat to U.S. citizens...except the ones over there fighting...for a cause of conquest.

We need to get up close and personal to the fact that we are fucking over Iraqis and our service people are doing it at the behest of the neo-con criminals.

Guess what?

That's a hard fucking pill to swallow, when its our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles.....and we 'betray' them....as the neocons would like us to believe. We aren't betraying them...our government betrayed our soldiers by sending them on a mission of conquest.....

Its painful, no?

Its hard to take, no?

We need to deal with it, and Jane Fonda will help. She did it before

[Gormy Cuss]

68. I remember 1968 too.

1968 was crazy. Vietnam was only part of it. There were still civil rights protests and the back to back assassinations of two beacons of hope. In 1968 my brother and uncle were in Vietnam. Three other uncles were serving on ships in the Pacific. I believe that qualifies as not a picnic.

The violent protests I recall were for the most part campus/college town related and the public sentiment was dismissive of the trouble making college students until Kent State. That changed everything. I do believe the SDS and other campus based radical organizations played their part, but IMO it was only when the peaceful protest movement spread out across the country and the polls show a lack of support that the polits finally realized the war had to end. That's the war I remember.

I have one close relative ready to be called up at any time. If the draft kicks there are 3 more who are prime cannon fodder. My perspective is not from aloofness or theoretical. So as it was with Vietnam, this stupid neocon war is very personal. I also am incensed that we are torturing, maiming, and killing Iraqis in the name of "democracy." I curse every person who voted for W last fall. That was our best chance to restore order in Iraq. For now we're stuck with him and his stranglehold on Congress. The tide is turning on Iraqnam support; being part of the vocal opposition is the best I can do. If anyone needs to grow 'nads it's the DLC and the sane Republican members of Congress.

I remember clearly how reviled Fonda was back then. Many people thought it was a stupid publicity stunt, some thought she was just naive. Many others were in the "Hanoi Jane" crowd. Very few people supported her. It is from this perspective that I say Jane Fonda will be more of a distraction than a benefit, just as I believe she was last time. I support her right to be vocal. It's the bus tour that I find ill advised.

[Catt03]

75. Agree...

Been there, done that too.

She will do more harm that good. If she does go thru with this, it will be in the MSM every day, every hour. They will portray Jane Fonda as representing the Democratic Pary.

This is a bad idea.

[BikeWriter]

142. jane was an avowed communist at the time...

On November 21, 1970 she told a University of Michigan audience of some two thousand students, "If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism. " Washington Times July 7, 2000 http://www.1stcavmedic.com/jane_fonda.htm

[Jacobin]

112. Good post

We can certainly agree to disagree. My point is that it takes all kinds of opposition to get the ball rolling against the stranglehold that the warmongers have on the country.

The fact that Fonda may be reviled by some (okay, many) makes headlines, and headlines about opposition get people talking about it. It may be talk like "Hate that damn Fonda commie, but dammit we need to get out of ____(pick an invasion)".

Probably the biggest turning point, other than Kent State was the thousands of Viet Nam vets coming home and marching in extreme opposition to the war....it was very difficult for the Okies from Muskogee to dismiss them.

Anyway, cheers and we shall see how this all plays out. With any luck, it won't take fifteen years to lose this one.

[PunkPop]

103. Yeah, wouldn't want to take the spotlight off Medea Benjamin

God knows she's really burning up the airwaves.

Sorry, it's just the idea that someone will be upstaging an antiwar activist (that I respect greatly by the way) who is little known outside of other antiwar activists seems kind of silly.

Same goes for all those antiwar politicians I see all over my tv.


ON EDIT: Clarified post.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

111. Distraction from what?

I don't see much mainstream talk about the consequences of the war and its realities. We don't see much on tv, it's not on the front page of my paper every day. I NEVER hear my neighbors talk about the war.

So if you mean it will be a distraction for those people watching reality shows, shopping and otherwise going about their business oblivious to the death and suffering in Iraq, I will agree. Let's distract them!

I don't think she is going to upstage Medea Benjamin and politicians on the anti-war side until they have the mainstream stage. Alas, right now they do not.

[WhiteTara]

56. Here Here

See you at the revolution!
:patriot:

[mountainvue]

84. Best post I have read today. n/t

[misscoko34]

98. THANK YOU

SAY IT AGAIN.....HOW COWARDLY HAVE WE BECOME? We are going to let these allycats repukes destroy us and our country!

Somebody has to do something....

[gtar100]

114. Yes!!! On Point!!!!

[youngdem]

119. Well said!

As a young adult with no first hand knowledge ( just what has been told to me) I congratulate you on putting into words what so many of us "youngsters" fail to understand.

[Cha]

122. Another poster I agree

with!

[dolstein]

39. Could she PLEASE join the Republican Party?

After all, Jane Fonda and her ilk have already destroyed the Democratic Party once. What's the point of doing it again?

[Jacobin]

50. Hmm. I don't think her politics are right wing

I welcome every voice in opposition to the occupation, because it is going to take every single person who has the gumption to stand up to these thieves to get us out.

Sorry you don't feel the cause is worth fighting for. We could use your voice.

[tavalon]

104. Jane Fonda?

Al From perhaps, Joe Lieberman, yeah, but Jane Fonda. She's a movie star who made a bad choice once.

[Cha]

123. Great post! n/t

[RetroLounge]

129. "already destroyed the Democratic Party once"

Yeah, right. You want to please list her "ilk" so I can research how they destroyed the party?

Maybe you should look to the DLC if you want to see how the party is being destroyed.

So much power given to an actress...

RL

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

134. No the article is about Jane Fonda not Al From and Bruce Reed

[DanCa]

40. The bus runs on vegetable oil Has Barberella flashback (nt)

[Miss Chybil]

42. She doesn't make for a good poster girl... nt

[Rebellious Republican]

47. Please Jane, don't do this to our cause! YOU WILL ONLY HURT US!

:banghead:

[maryallen]

51. What is your cause? War???

Jane said she plans an anti-war bus tour.

[Rebellious Republican]

61. No maryallen, my cause is peace!

I have been opposed to this immoral, illegal, unjustified, unprovoked war since day one!

If you did not notice, I am a veteran, I know what the horrors of war look like.

I have seen death and destruction, pain and suffering up close and personal.

I was in Beirut in "83", thats what the top ribbon was for (Naval Expeditionary Forces Medal).

I have a very good idea about all of the pain and sorrow that create a ripple effect like a stone being tossed into the water.

Just one death or one amputee has consequences like a domino.

I also understand what will happen when the media gets hold of this. It will become a circus, a feeding frenzy if you will.

That will only divert attention away from the real story.

If you recall what happened when John Kerry ran in "04", the focus was taken off the real issues because of his his (justifiable) protests of the vietnam war upon his return from there.

He was at least a war Hero, not some young idealistic movie star.

I never said I did not like her, I simply stated what is going to happen.

What do believe the GOP propaganda machine will do with this, it is a gift they could never have dreamed of being given.

Before you attack someone, you may want to check out what other vets here will have to say about this.

I think you will find that most will agree with me.

I also know veterans and their families that will not be happy or excited about Jane taking center stage and giving the GOP just what they need to take the focus off of their misdeeds.

Mark my words, it will not help the cause of peace.

Here are some words for you to ponder the next time you choose to attack some one posting here at DU.

The following is from a corpsman ("Doc") in Beirut who wishes to remain anonymous:

I was thinking...The way Ive learned to deal with Beruit is through my poetry. I've been told by friends that I should get them published, however the poems are my pain on paper... things I couldn't share with strangers. Now as I sit thinking about it all, I think Id like to share it with my brothers who were there. Is there a place on your board for this type of expression?


Coming Home

Change will come,
Change is here.
Love fades out,
Then reappears.
Now my water has turned
to wine and these
thoughts I have I now claim
as mine..
I'm coming home.

Change has been,
change will be,
time will tell,
Then time will ease.

My curtain has been drawn
and my heart can go to where
my heart does belong
I'm going home.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will have to be braver now,
than I have ever been.
And I will have to be stronger now,
Than I ever was before.
And I will have to be more loyal now,
Than I have ever been.

A warriors heart will never change...
Only its direction..
Only its focus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could see the man
I was yet to become..
And the man that was not to be..

But only with the eyes
of the man who
is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some things are better
left unsaid,

But they turn me inside
out,
And I can barely speak
of them,
Their only recourse,
Is to visit me...While I sleep.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd give anything to silence those sounds...
the crying out,
the screams,
the choppers,
I hear it as if its happening
now..

Today I woke to the sound of a chopper in flight__
and I was back,
in Beirut again.
All the sounds mixed in...
Then I heard a man crying for his mother
and I started my day
sobbing.

I wonder if he ever made it home to his mother.
I sometimes wonder if anybody got home..
Anybody?
Am I alone?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw J.P today hitchhiking...
(Like he ever would have!)
(was he going home?)
Yet there he was, for a fraction of a second..
(asking?)
No smile, no frown, no recognition..
no eye contact.
(like a stranger, which he was)
I wonder if he knew I did all I could?
(I wonder if I did?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was like a god...
I could do anything.
I could keep a man alive...
(Or so I thought.)
I was the corpsman...
I had to.
And now...
What compares?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only ones for who the war is over,
are those who died fighting it.
For the rest of us it will always be,
just a nightmare away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man should live everyday,
as if it were a preflight check.
He has to ask himself every morning
"am I ready for liftoff?"
And if not...
Find the strength to go
anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can another know...?
The storys, untold by me?
How could another understand...?
The chaos? The terror?
The destruction of ourselves?
I should not have had to be there.
I should not be the one to explain...
I am the one who is owed an explaination...
And that will never happen.

http://www.beirut-memorial.org/theatre/docpoems.html


Here is some history if you care to read...
http://www.beirut-memorial.org/history/index.html

[SlowDownFast]

92. Right on, RR.

If there's any one who knows if Jane is helpful or hurtful to our cause, it's gonna be the vets...

Hey Jane, why can't you just use all that money you and Ted have to quietly fund Veterans For Peace or some other similar group(s)?

[Rebellious Republican]

96. Thanks utopiansecretagent! N/T

[RetroLounge]

130. So why aren't you going on the bus tour with her?

RL

[Rebellious Republican]

144. "Why would I" is a better question?

She is persona non grata to many, even to those that would be considered the most hard core opposition to BUSH and the War.

At least in my part of the world that is.

She is not going to draw attention to the anti-war movement in a positive constructive manner.

There are many who would oppose the war that still have a bad taste in their mouth from her youthful follies.

The only thing the corporate media whores will focus on and present to the majority of their viewers will be old news from thirty years ago.

You forget who owns the Media!

I would not start salivating over how much attention she will draw to this illegal, immoral, unjustified, unprovoked war.

Just calling it like I see it. But like I said in another reply to Dragonfly, I may be wrong about public perception of Jane.

We will just have to see what happens, I wish her well, I hope I am wrong, I just really believe this is not a good thing.
RR

:shrug:

[Dragonfly]

161. Just about every sentient member of our

struggling species can go deep inside (if they have the courage) to hone in on errant actions that they've taken that need to be addressed, whether in personal or community theaters of life. I wrestle with a few biggies of my own on occasion.

I just finished reading Ms. Fonda's autobiography. From my viewpoint, I believe in her sincere expressions of remorse, clearly and profoundly articulated in her book. Moreover, I "hope you are wrong," too, about the wider "public perception of Jane." Veterans of the Iraq war will be riding along with her and, although they are too young to have witnessed the tumultuous 60's-'70's, perhaps they are well-read and have friends and relatives who steered them toward discovery of that era's transparent truth re America's role in Vietnam.

Since this bus tour isn't to take place until March, we have at least 6 months lead time to see how it develops.

RR: It's a good sign that we can be civil during our robust discourse about this topic. Most baby-boomers have strong notions of those heart-wrenching times; so many of us were specifically touched by the '65-'75 decade. Whatever one's beliefs are 30 years after the fact, to deny anyone's desire to help wake up a brainwashed general populace "on our watch" seems very counterproductive, IMO.

Oh, BTW, your statement: "She is not going to draw attention to the anti-war movement in a positive constructive manner" is a bold one. Let's just see how this plays out, sending our best healing sentiments to a generation still wounded by that abominable carnage, so that our "collective elder wisdom" may add to knowledgeable decision-making by those now in their teens and twenties.

Peace...

[BikeWriter]

143. I'm a Viet vet who agrees. hanoi jane will hamper the anti-war

movement.

[Rebellious Republican]

146. Thanks BW, people just do not understand the hostile feelings

that Jane invokes in many.

:toast:

[BikeWriter]

147. I could never forgive her for the vicious lies...

she's told about our POWs, much less the lies about their treatment at the hands of her old comrades, the North Vietnamese. We'd be much better off if she'd confine her self-serving book tour to selling books.

[Dragonfly]

66. I told myself that the next time I

posted on DU it would be to support a kindred cybersoul standing up for the right of another to speak out against this growing war madness. (Sorta reminds me of the highly emotive feeling evoked by that CSNY tune "Long Time Comin'.")

Jane Fonda's unique arc-of-a-life depicts a quite intense human experience, which has provided a multitude of lessons for me (and probably many others) from the Sixties-on. The one that I am reminded of today is about accepting sincere forgiveness and allowing a passionate heart to become better acquainted with his/her head after the deep refection which can evolve into very productive healing time. Certainly, I have made my own share of blunders at the baby-boomer age of 56 plus. I want to give more of my self toward allied actions and that has meant continually sculpting personal rough edges with sharp and honest tools. In other words, I'm aware of my own faults and remember my largest mistakes, but still love life and want to contribute to a better neighborhood/planet via slow-but-steady "psyche-balancing."

I welcome Ms. Fonda's re-emergence into the profound debate revolving around the soul-eroding prospect of permanent global war and all that it is destroying, here and abroad. I think if one talks to some members of Veterans for Peace or IVAW (Iraq Veterans Against the War), you will hear more of the current cutting-edge rationale for why "x" segment of returning female/male combat veterans look forward to her voice collaboratively joined with other caring Americans for this increasingly timely national discussion.

It'll be instructive for all of us to see how this unfolds; who knows, perhaps the latest surge of big media's questioning of the administration on actual vital issues, related to disturbingly wayward governance, will also include battalions of transformed peace-oriented voices coming back into the democratic fray in a fair and enlightening manner?

I was inspired by the affirmative theme and succinct content of your post.

[Rebellious Republican]

67. I can appreciate that Dragonfly....

I also wish that the masses of the world and more specifically this country, could become more enlightened.

I understand what Jane wants to do is honorable and that she has very good intentions.

I believe that her feelings on this war are truly from the heart, that she believes that she has something to contribute.

Consider this for a moment if you will, that the majority of Americans are not like our esoteric group of like minded thinkers.

Maybe the majority of Americans are living vicariously through the eyes and ears of Corporate Media.

Corporate America has learned how to control their thoughts, and tell them what they should believe and not believe, think or not think.

We need to fight them on their terms, they own the battlefield on which we have to wage this war of enlightenment.

Therefore we need to choose our soldiers in this war of enlightenment carefully.

I have not said that Jane would not be beneficial to our cause, maybe her talents, skills, and know how could be used in more productive ways.

She has enormous connections to media, big business and many people with celebrity status from all areas of fame.

She could easily assemble all these assets to become a force to be reckoned with.

She could do this without putting her controversial persona in the spotlight.

She could be a huge benefit without being a huge liability.

I welcome Jane's help, I would just ask for her to do it in such a manner that may be more insightful and helpful.

Peace, RR :hi:

[Dragonfly]

81. It was good to read your communicative post,

(a) 'cause you have perceived that J.F.'s efforts can be helpful; and, (b)you nderstand that a large segment of the population has lost touch with what "democracy" really means thru very bum info from the alleged "powers-that-be.".

<<We need to fight them on their terms, they own the battlefield on which we have to wage this war of enlightenment>>

"They" don't own any sphere of engagement that means anything substantive to me. My sense is that a spiritual-political globalization runs along at a concurrent pace, gaining connectedness and visibility as each day passes. Too many smart and big-hearted people with an eye for history and uplifting surprise are playing roles inconceivable to tunnel-visioned PNAC operatives.

I hope that folks can suspend judgement on Ms. Fonda and friends' bus tour for now. Once the parameters and theme becomes spelled out, then embarked upon, I'll voice my opinion on the merits of the certain-to-be-collective enterprise.

In the meantime, I can get up with a spring in my step these days because I believe that the best of America, viewed internally and beyond, leaves a lot of room for healing and enlightenment missions to succeed in tangibly miraculous ways. Faith can be invested in both secular and sacred mending endeavors, methinks.

Thanks for well-thought-out and candid input.

[Rebellious Republican]

83. I hope you are right Dragonfly, I think all us are feeling drained...

Maybe I am wrong about public perception of Jane, we can always hope for the best.

We will have to wait and see I suppose, you are right about that.

I feel as if we are like Gollum in the Tolkien trilogy, slowly being consumed and drained by evil energy. Sapping the very life out of all of us.

Thanks for your kind words, this is what healthy debate is supposed to be like!

Gotta catch some zzz's, work comes early in the morning.

:hi:

[maryallen]

78. No attack, Repub, just a question.

And spare me your chauvinistic, military pablum.

I am an Army brat. My father was a career man -- 33 years, including WWII and Vietnam. Nam ended up killing him, though not in country. At 54, with severe hypertension, persistent malaria, and undiagnosed PTSD, he had a massive stroke and died.
My son just returned from Kirkuk, Iraq. He was going to make the Air Force a career, just like his Grandfather did. They put him on guard duty and the bombs and missiles hit the armory depot he was protecting, nearly killing him in the process. Today he is back home and will return to college in a neighboring town -- thank God.

Like Jacobin and others, I lived through Vietnam and KNOW that we will not get out of Iraq without a lot of protesting, civil disobedience, and generally, raising hell about the state of our country and our shameful participation in an unwarranted and unjustifiable war.

So, again I say,
"You go, Jane. Call it like you see it, and know that others are supporting your right to protest this awful war."

[Rebellious Republican]

82. Oh I see the problem now????

Spare me your insipid feminist "all men are scum" drivel.

Well I suppose we can go on all night with one upsmanship, I have a brother in law, a niece and a godson in the Air force, one godson in the Army reserves preparing to depart for parts unknown. I have a soon to be nephew in law sitting on a river patrol boat in Baghdad as we speak. My father died in 1965. The VA paid for his burial!

I lived through Vietnam as well, I was getting extremely close to draft age when the war finally ended.

Where in my post did I say anything about "not getting out of Iraq without a lot of protesting, civil disobedience, and generally, raising hell about the state of our country".

See my reply to Dragonfly

Your tone in the subject line was definitely hostile. How is it that you came directly to me with your flame with extra question marks???

I counted 46 other posts prior to mine! A good many of them were extremely inflammatory about Jane Fonda, yet you chose mine to flame a reply to.

I think I understand the problem now, it is not what I said in the first post, it simply boils down to this, "No attack,Repub, just a question.".

Most people around here typically use RR when conversing with me.

You know my pseudonym is like a lightning rod for trolls around here, it really chaps there ass that a FORMER republican speaks out against them, and has left their lockstep fold.

I also noticed that you have your profile disabled, whats with that?

I have questions as well Al?

On Edit: As far as Jacobin and his posts, I have a great deal of respect for his posts, they are almost always insightful and informative. I have been around here for a few years and have not always agreed with his point of view, but I do like his style.

[silvermachine]

178. Um, what is the question?

Very disingenuous to say "no attack" then follow up immediately with this: "And spare me your chauvinistic, military pablum."

Quite the class act. Not.

[Rebellious Republican]

193. Thanks silvermachine, I would also call it an oxymoron. N/T

:toast:

[silvermachine]

196. You got it...

EOM

[K8-EEE]

90. Balloney!!

This demon-ization of Jane Fonda is just RWer drivel.

[Rebellious Republican]

95. "RWer drivel" Whatcha saying K8-EEE? N/T

[ElectroPrincess]

99. No, resentment for Jane Fonda is *very real* and can't be denied ...

For those of you who are younger than 45 years old and, perhaps NOT from a working or middle class family, you may NOT imagine the *intense hatred* that perseveres over the actions of Jane Fonda when traveling over to Vietnam. These resentments have NOT faded in the hearts and minds of many Vietnam Vets and their families.

My older brother and his combat veteran buddies(former 101st Airborne Corps Sgt) literally seethes with disgust at the mere mention of the name "Jane Fonda." And NO! He is far from unusual with such a reaction among many Vietnam Combat Veterans subjected to the draft.

No, please to not support this arrogant, spoiled NOW geriatric woman? The only thing that saved Jane Fonda after the 60s, both figuratively and (very real hate for her still in many combat vet circles) perhaps physically, is that she WAS A KID back during those times.

I did NOT support the Vietnam War, but I continue to love and support my older brother and deeply respect the other combat veterans that fought beside him.

Therefore, it is with sincerity to help put an end to the USA present "adventures" that I state with 100% confidence = JANE FONDA will be the worst thing to happen to both the Democratic Party and the Anti-War movement. :(

As a human being, I don't feel the intense resentment that many combat vets STILL hold out for her. However, Jane Fonda, seriously needs to "catch a clue" that many liberals in their late 40s and beyond are *DISGUSTED* with this present bout of Jane's egocentric bullshit in attention seeking behavior.

IMO, her presence disgraces the good character of most of us who are both openly and genuinely working for JUSTICE.

Go Away Jane! Don't go away mad, sad or lonely ... but for all the true good that is NOW possible, consider for ONCE in your selfish and spoiled life actually serving the greater good by bowing out?

... Just Please Ms. Jane Fonda = fade from the political spotlight and GO YOUR OWN SPECIAL WAY!

[BikeWriter]

155. Thank you very much. That self-serving #### will hurt us again!

[BikeWriter]

156. Not so! I'm no right winger, and I say she betrayed our POWs.

[CTyankee]

52. If the righties want to bash her, ask them where they were

during the Vietnam War. If they got their deferments then they should be asked why they didn't step up and fight for what they say they believed in. Then tell them that they don't have the right to criticize her and they should shut up.

[BikeWriter]

160. I'm a lefty, a VietNam Vet, and I hate the ####!

[gatorboy]

58. Sorry, but it strikes me as publicity.

The Iraq war has been going on for several years now and she now just decides to come out against the war on her book tour? Sounds like opportunism....Or low book sales.

[Jacobin]

65. Hey, MOST of the people who came out against the Viet Nam war

were initially in favor of it.....most notably our erstwhile presidential nominee for the democratic party, Senator Kerry.

[Neshanic]

76. Ding Ding! We have a winner! You are correct sir.

[BikeWriter]

125. Exactly.

[bunny planet]

59. Please don't Jane. This will be just the distraction they need right now.

Donate money towards anti-war efforts instead. We don't need the divisivness that your presence will bring right now, the country is on the verge of a Civil War (our country) as it is. Just IMHO.

It does take courage to do what she is doing considering what a polarizing figure she is, it's just that I think she will inadvertently do more harm than good.

[Fluffdaddy]

108. Word

[lynne]

62. Well, that should get the knickers of the -

- Swift Boat Vets and all the "Hanoi Jane'ers" into quite a twist.

No doubt in my mind that this will just serve to align, activate and invigorate those groups.

[bassman79]

64. a bus that runs on "vegetable oil"...

Is this article real or is it off The Onion?

This sounds like a scene out of Team America!

I'm sure it'll be real effective...

[K8-EEE]

89. DOH!! Yes there are vehicles that run on straight vegetable oil

and one of the best ways to combat terrorism is to have more and more of this kind of energy....why don't we have tractors, buses, trains that can run on oil or bio-deisel? Because Bush's kissin' cousins in the disgusting Saudi royal family would be mad. Excuse me! They ARE the terrorists!!

Phase out the oil money, that is fighting terrorism.

[ptolle]

189. diesels & oil

Not meaning to step on anyone's posts, but, if you check the history of the diesel engine ole rudolph specifically designed it to run on vegetable oils and other low grade fuels. I believe peanut oil was rudolph's lipid of choice. I also believe that currently Willie Nelson, among others, is pretty heavily involved in the biodiesel movement.The frightwingshriekers are going to pillory anyone who opposes their imperial fantasies so I say let her have her say if nothing else the nature of the calumny that comes down against her will serve to further reveal the mean-spirited nature of the war-lover party in this country.

[David Zephyr]

69. Jane's doing what very, very few Democrats in Congress dare do.

Kudos for Jane.

[ElectroPrincess]

85. Jane is on the "big vacation" ... the sooner she

mercifully allows her dried up old bag of bones to fade into celebrity obscurity, the better. I've lost what little respect that I once had for her when she did all that whining and apologizing earlier this year.

Gosh, I wish she'd just GO AWAY instead of being the attention craven shrew that is now her natural role. :puke:

[Im_Your_Huckleberry]

72. you go girl.

[anaxarchos]

93. Before the history of the Vietnam War got "revised"...

... there might have been some context for all this.

After dropping more bombs on Vietnam than all of the tonnage that was dropped in World War 2 and after killing maybe 1 million people, good old LBJ got replaced by Nixon. At least LBJ had maintained a few restraints. He had expressly forbidden bombing the dikes in the North, for example, because that would be "genocide". Nixon immediately began to bomb the dikes. By the time, Jane was photographed in the Anti-Aircraft pit, B52 strategic bombers were carpet bombing the cities of the North.

Jane wasn't the only one to have started to sympathize with those on the receiving end of those bombs. Everyone I knew did. I'm sorry she's sorry.

One more personal note... When I saw the film of Fonda, I looked past her at the faces of the Vietnamese gunners. It struck me at the time that they looked even younger than me (I was draft age then). Years later I learned that by that point in the war, manpower shortages in the North were so severe that the anti-aircraft gunners were mostly just kids. Also by that point in the war, they were a priority target. Entire squadrons of US aircraft had no other purpose than to hunt down and destroy those sites. Casualties were very high. I wonder how many of those in Jane's video actually made it through the war alive?

Swift Boat Veterans my ass...

[meganmonkey]

102. Good for her, good for peace, IMHO

Who gives a flying f*** what the RW talking heads think of this? Everything peace activists do or don't do is fodder for them.

At the very least, she will get a little press for the cause. And for herself, yes, but that's what celebrities do, whether it is Tim Robbins or Michael Moore or Bono.

I think she'll rally the faithful, get people out in public protesting. That cannot be considered a bad thing. As others have pointed out, the anti-war left is pretty damn quiet. Embarrassingly so.

She is a grown woman who has lived a long life - there are things about her past that she may have done differently, knowing what she does now. So she's doing it differently this time.

Good for her.

:patriot:

[lonestarnot]

116. Can we go? LOL

[DelawareValleyDem]

118. Should keep her occupied

That way she can't make another movie with J. Lo.

[Matilda]

120. Welcome back to the fight Jane!

Long time no see.

[geek tragedy]

133. Maybe Ward Churchill and Baghdad Bob can join her just to make it

as counter-productive as possible.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. YOU GO JANE!!! I'LL RIDE THAT BUS WITH YA!!!!

[RetroLounge]

151. You can't do that!

That would be actual action!

Instead, you need to sit behind your keyboard typing nasty invective about a 35 year old resentment...

:hi:

RL

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

162. Jane Fonda is a true American Hero..she deserves her own holiday

[BikeWriter]

163. Perhaps you choose to forgive your enemies...

and turn the other cheek. That's your perogative. I choose to remember them and get even, if possible.

[RetroLounge]

172. Good for you!

I don't need to forgive Jane Fonda because she did nothing to me.

But your spite, resentment and hate is most attractive...

RL

[BikeWriter]

174. She called our POWs, my Brothers in arms, liars and hypocrites.

I consider it my patriotic duty to despise her, thank you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

180. What would you all Lt WIlliam Calley? A boy scout?

[BikeWriter]

181. This thread is about Jane Fonda, not Calley...

Calley is not joining the peace movement. Do you see how disruptive a discussion of her is here? How helpful can she be to the anti-war movement? As a number of other people have also pointed out she will be counter-productive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

182. She isn't disruptive. She's just doing what she's doing and a bunch

of alleged liberal keyboard commandos are reacting. Can you imagine the courage it takes to be as hated as Jane Fonda and still follow your conscience and speak out? More Americans should be like her.

[BikeWriter]

184. "liberal keyboard commandos" Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

My vet's therapy group and my forum will love that one! fonda is hated for a reason. She fucked up when she embraced the North VietNamese and treated our POWs as the enemy, they were not.

[RetroLounge]

190. Yes, Patriotism = Hate

nice...

RL

[BikeWriter]

194. jane attacked and lied about my fellow troops...

I'm supporting them. Call it what you will.

[RetroLounge]

198. and I am sure there are millions of troops out there

that are just tickled about your 35 year old hatred in their honor.

enjoy it, I'm done with this...

RL

[BikeWriter]

199. Fine, walk away.

[RetroLounge]

200. Fine, whatever...

:hi:

RL

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

179. Oh please Jane Fonda protested that war and got us out

She helped our troops more than she hurt. I didn't agree with everything she did...but she was right to protest that war and she's right to protest this one.

[BikeWriter]

183. Sources please? It is your opinion she helped us...

Our opinion may vary from that. I have a veteran's forum here http://forums.delphiforums.com/veteransrights/start where she is a frequent topic of discussion. I am a member of the Veterans of Foriegn Wars, the American Legion, and VietNam Veterans of America. Some have forgiven her for her mistreatment of our returning POWs, most have not.
I see no chance of her being anything except a disruptive influence in the peace movement today.

[mountainvue]

201. Do you want peace?

Forgiveness offers it.

[BikeWriter]

202. I wasn't taught to forgive the enemy.

[LibDemAlways]

138. Thus far the corporate whores have paid scant

attention to those speaking out in opposition to the Iraq War, at least partly because there is no well known face out front. The whores gravitate to celebrity. I wish Martin Sheen would take on the task. But neither he, Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn or anybody else has been in the forefront on this one. If Jane wants to spend part of her "third act," as she calls it in her book, being a feisty, outspoken anti-war senior citizen on a tour with families of Iraq war veterans who will have personal experiences to share, I'm all for it.

Anyone still critical of her actions in Vietnam ought to read her blow by blow description of the 1972 trip in her biography. It may not change many minds, but it does shed light on her motives.

[ElectroPrincess]

139. But you don't get this on an emotional scale ...

Many people, especially those who lost loved ones in Vietnam are not only critical of Jane Fonda, but on a true "GUT LEVEL" despise the hell out of her.

Hello intellectuals!?! Jane Fonda consorted with *the enemy.* On a family oriented and emotional level it doesn't matter that, in war, both sides are the terrorists.

What does matter to many Combat Vietnam Veterans and family members is that they saw unspeakable horrors and lost their buddies (brothers in arms) during that war.

Please, for one moment: try to pause and FEEL the pain ebb in of the thought of losing your most treasured loved one to enemy fire? NOW, think about Jane Fonda visiting NORTH VIETNAM and conversing with ENEMY FORCES? Remember, you are on pins and needles, sick with worry and fear that your precious son, brother or husband is lying dead on the battlefield.

A person's character is more than a sum of their intellectual pursuits. Further, I contend that it is NATURAL for people who have lost loved ones in Vietnam to NOT EVER forgive Jane Fonda.

I know that it's going to piss off a lot of *fans* who love to flock around celebrity, but NO - these people have every right to continue to dislike her WITHOUT being degraded in any way, shape or form.

I too must personally struggle NOT to hate her for her borderline Treasonous actions. No, it is alright for many of us left-of-center Democrats to protest Jane Fonda's "front and center" support.

These wounds run deep and the do NOT ever fully heal. Intellectualize all you wish, but logic will not make people *feel* any differently about her character.

IMO, IF Jane Fonda truly cares about assisting the anti-war movement, she will opt to stay in the background.

[GoldenOldie]

140. Fonda Young and Naive visits North Viet Nam while George W. Bush

with the help of daddy gets to jump the list for the TANG and then after millions of dollars have been spent in his pilot's training jumps ship and goes AWOL and Desertion.

Georgie goes on to not only become POTUS but Commander-in-Chief who has the power to sent our troops into a WAR while Jane Fonda is still the brunt of the CON's attacks for her visits to North Vietnam.

I am sure that there are many Vietnam vets who detest Jane Fonda's youthful activities yet, I have worked beside the active duty military and the veterans for 35-years during the Vietnam war and following and I have never heard one of them mention Jane Fonda.

The CON's with the help of the Swiftboat Liars attacked John Kerry, they viciously attacked Max Clelland a Vietnam amputee in order to get the traitor George W. Bush in power. I would say that Jane Fonda now in her senior years, finds herself in very good company.

[ElectroPrincess]

141. Your experiences are different than mine ...

There's not been a day in my entire life that I have not had "The US Military" associated with my person. My father, Ret. US Army was battlefield commissioned during WWII; my brother served as a SGT, 101st Airborne, Vietnam ...
I served in US Army for four years, then GS employee Psychologist for an Infantry Battalion in the Country of Panama.

Oh! And I'm also married to a retired Marine. :-)

I don't know what circles you have traveled "GoldenOne" but I have heard Jane Fonda degraded, time and time again, for her actions during the Vietnam Conflict, i.e., Army, Marine Corps - Active Duty, Veteran and their Family Members.

IMO, it was admirable to passionately protest war, but Jane Fonda burned all her *goodwill bridges* with the United States Military when she traveled to NORTH Vietnam.

Whether that is intellectually sound or not, if you allow Jane Fonda to lead this effort, you WILL LOSE many combat veterans and their family members at your rallies.

But hell, we always do what is pure and right from an intellectual standpoint. To hell with those un-pure liberals who grieve for those whose names are posted on the wall of the Vietnam Memorial. :sarcasm:

Jane Fonda needs to FADE. <--- I hope and pray.

[GoldenOldie]

148. My Circles of Military travel

My father was WWII Vet, he was 35 and had 4-children when he was called up.....this is a whole other story.

When my father returned home he immediately went to work for the Army Tank Command and became a government civilian responsible for the function of Military Tanks and the transportation of them throughout the States and more importantly to Korea....he worked and recreated along side his military parterners. When my eldest sister graduated she also went to work at the same military installation and she also worked and recreated with her military work partners.

When my father was transferred to Fort Huachuca I went along and went to work as a government employee and worked within the US Army Military hospital for 15-years this was during the Vietnam War where I worked with military medical personnel, doctors, nurses, medics, COL's down to Pfc's. One of my very close friends during this time was an Administrative Major who was a Vietnam double amputee, who had received special dispensation to remain in the Military. I along with my civilian counterparts worked and played with these medical military who had seen the horrors of war. I also worked with active duty military, NG, Reserves who were injured in accidents as they were traveling through Arizona and the Military assigned to Fort Huachuca. My job also required that I travel to DOD test sites such as Ft Hood, Panama Canal, Pentagon, Ft Bliss, and Ft Sam Houston to attend meetings with my counterparts which consisted of civilians and military.

I worked for 4-years with the US Army Communications Command as a Program Analyst. My job consisted of working with the Military Communications personnel to determine their budget requirement for such items as statelite systems and the HUMVEE...... which is now another story in itself.

My father at the age of 60 was sent to Vietnam for a 6-month period.
At that time, the military were having a lot of problems with their big guns misfiring and their tanks breaking down. Although my father was in a completely different assignment at the time, because of his expertise and the problems they were having in Nam, he was given a mandatory order to go or be forced to retire. He went and spent his 6-months in the field with the troops and actually had the camps he was staying in overrun by the Viet Cong. He lost 50-lbs from this tour and came home with a whole different perspective on the US involvement in Nam.

Yes my "circle of Military," have been extensive and I have loved, partied and cried with my military friends and shared moments that I shall never forget.

[ElectroPrincess]

149. Thank you

Sincere thanks for you detailed description of your experiences with the military.

Cool! I attended Intelligence Officers' Basic Course at Fort We-Got-Cha (Huachuca). We have something in common.

However, our point of contention was specifically that the Military and their family members did not take much notice of Jane Fonda. Now that's where our experiences are vastly different.

I don't want you to take the following in a negative way (please don't?), just that this is different = My years of Active Duty service provides a little more insight than a family member or a government employee. Often soldiers do not "speak freely" in front of civilians like they will among fellow troops. Perhaps the forgoing theory is inaccurate ... that the soldiers you associated with were more "mature" and "forgiving" of Jane Fonda, than mine or those Infantrymen within my husband's Jarhead (Marine Corps) Community.

Good people can differ and still appreciate an alternate perspective.
Best, EP

[BikeWriter]

152. My circles of military travel include VietNam, Class of '67 & '68...

various VA hospitals, psychiatric clinics, veterans groups and forums. I have few words of description for hanoi jane fit for polite discussion and hear the same from my friends.

[BikeWriter]

150. The young and naive excuse don't cut it with me. She was 34 years old.

[Burried News]

145. Hey, we kinda left the field open for her didn't we.

If we were in the streets would she be?
I would prefer she didn't do this. Ultimately it's her call.

If we were in the streets would the DLC be there?
If they were, would they look like leaders or just cunning opportunists hoping no one would realize that they want to rule but not Lead?

[digno dave]

153. would she please go awayyy

[liberaliraqvet26]

154. Stay home Jane...

can someone with credibility please take her place.

[BikeWriter]

157. Thank you for your post and for your service. Welcome home!

[hexola]

165. Who's Jane Fonda? (nt)

[GoldenOldie]

166. How easy it was for the CON's to use John Kerry and Jane Fonda

to cover over the AWOL/Desertion status of one George W. Bush.

John Kerry had every right to come home and tell of his experiences and those of his comrades.

Upon my Fathers departure from Vietnam, he had to personally meet with General Westmoreland and give him an exit report. The General was none to happy with my Father's report on the field conditions of the troops equipment and their lack of training. My father not only had to check the condition of the equipment but he felt compelled to also train the troops in order for them to survive. General Westmoreland ordered my Father to re-write his report to show more favorable conditions and my Father who as a civilian and extremely ethical refused the good Generals order and told him that if he wanted it changed he could do it himself, but his name/signature would not be attached to it. My father came home very upset that the Military leaders were not in fact supporting their very own troops and did not hesitate to report it to his superiors and to those who questioned him about his tour of duty in Nam. Did this make him a traitor, I think not.

[BikeWriter]

167. Your Father was an honorable man. I respect that...

Colonel David Hackworth was the first active duty senior officer to do that.

[Catherine Vincent]

168. This thread is past due for the archives.

Fonda haters should give it a rest!

[BikeWriter]

170. Give it a rest, why? Do you forgive people...

who say your best friends are liars and hypocrites about matters of their own life and death? jane is choosing to bring it all back up.

[jonnyblitz]

177. all you Fonda haters sound just like...OH NEVERMIND.

:eyes:

[BikeWriter]

185. Would you care to clarify what you're insinuating?

Perhaps you'd like to defend hanoi jane?

[Gormy Cuss]

186. Oh the insinuation is clear if you look at this related thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4202760

Apparently, if we aren't cheerleading Fonda because we believe her choice to be a public spokesperson against the war will do more harm than good, we're not lefties. We may be trolls or troll feeders. We are also apparently spineless because we recognize that the RW media can use her efforts to deflect attention from important issues (like ending the effing Iraq occupation without cutting and running, or dealing with the fallout of bad economic or environmental policies, for example.)

This thread needs to die soon because it's an embarassment. There are a number of people who have made clear that their views are influenced by living through the Vietnam war era. Some see the bus tour as a bad idea, some don't. No one has said she's wrong for objecting to this war.

[BikeWriter]

188. I could never tolerate her for what she's done...

She's still a selfish brat.

[Gormy Cuss]

191. IMHO, you've earned the right to never tolerate her.

A Tet ribbon qualifies you.

I would love to meet Vietnam combat vets who have no animosity towards Fonda. The ones I know are at best willing to let sleeping dogs lie. Most share your sentiments.

[BikeWriter]

192. There is at least one vet on DU I recall who has forgiven her...

None on my own Vet's forum have. The way I see it, I can't forgive her for harm she did to my Brothers and Sisters in arms.

[DemsUnite]

195. Good intentions, but

let's be honest, she can say the wrong thing...

[NNN0LHI]

197. Thank you for helping to bring an end to the draft in 1973 Jane

Chances are I would have been drafted not long after my 18th birthday in 1973 and been sent to the other side of the world to either be killed or kill some poor bastard that only wanted me out of his country. FUCK THAT!

Let history never forget that the war was wrong and Jane was right.

Don

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

204. Not LBN

This is no longer breaking news.