Senate advances bill to restrict cold medicines

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N28140868.htm

WASHINGTON, July 28 (Reuters) - The Senate judiciary committee on Thursday unanimously approved a bill that would limit access to common cold medicines containing pseudoephedrine, an ingredient that can be used to make the highly addictive drug methamphetamine.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales recently said methamphetamine had surpassed marijuana as the greatest danger to the nation's children.

The legislation, sponsored by California Democrat Sen. Diane Feinstein would move cold medicines containing pseudoephedrine, such as Sudafed, NyQuil, and Tylenol Cold, behind pharmacy counters and limit how much one person can buy to 7.5 grams a month.

[Dogmudgeon]

1. More hassles for moi

I take nearly a gram a day; it's the only decongestant that does not increase my blood pressure, although that's a fortunate ideosyncrasy. The only thing that Sen. Feinstein's bill will do is force me to get prescription pseudoephedrine at ten to twenty times the cost; then Sid Wolfe will inveigh the FDA to ban it anyway.

Ah, but I still can't get health insurance ...

--p!

[OKNancy]

6. It won't cost any more

and if it is like the law that is in Oklahoma already, you can still get gelcaps. It's the dry "crushable" stuff that goes behind the counter. You don't have to have a perscription, you just have to ask the pharmacist for it and sign a paper.

Of course, this law could be different.

[indepat]

2. Silly me thinking children, especially poor children, had greater dangers

than marijuana, like not getting proper medical care and maybe going hungry or at least not getting enough nourishing food, not enough warmth in the winter, childhood diseases et al.

[area51]

18. What indepat said.

This isn't about saving children (if they wanted to do that, they'd make sure all children have access to healthcare & make sure their parents were earning enough money to put food on the table); this is about controlling us & making megabux for pharma companies. :mad:

[Child_Of_Isis]

26. It's always about the children!

When our state wanted to pass Lottery, it became about the children. We were convinced the schools would be full of new computers. Of course they never materialized. When the state went after the deadbeat dad's, it was for the children but we found later on that the state was keeping most of the recovered money. Anytime they involve the phrase "the children", you may as well bend over.

[prole_for_peace]

3. but what if i am sick after pharmacy hours?

i am not very patient when i am sick and if i go to target at 8pm to get some damn cold medicine and they can't give it to me because the pharmacy is closed.... well, they better get a damn manager or the police cause it's going DOWN!!

[Patty Diana]

10. then you'll just have to go to the ER and sign your house over_

this bill is bullshit. I'm a RPH and know how many kids get sick after pharmacies close. 95% of them. They'll say you'll need RX's to get this next. Big Pharm has a hidden agenda here_but what.

[HockeyMom]

4. They changed the formula already in NyQuil

It used to knock you out so you COULD sleep through the night with flu symptoms. No more. It wears off after a few hours and you are up again in the middle of the night with all your "suffering".

Not worth it anymore. Save your money.

[CountAllVotes]

34. yeah its no longer 40% alcohol

so it doesn't work very good anymore (no booze anymore). :(

Tip: Get yourself a pint of brandy, one lemon, some honey and mix these items together. Add some hot water to this and drink away. Your cold and head will be clear in no time.

Don't have more than 2 though. You might get drunk and we wouldn't want that now would we? :D

:toast: btw ... :D

:kick:

[Heddi]

5. Oh.. I was affected by a similar Store--Policy just yesterday

seems I've gotten a little Summer Cold. Runny, stuffy nose, cough, just nasty.

So I go to Target and go to the "cold medicine" aisle and what do I see? Rows and rows of empty shelves with little notes about how items with pseudophederine will only be sold in Targets with a Pharmacy, and can only be purchased during pharmacy hours.

okay.

Only, my target doesn't have a pharmacy.

My choices for cold medicine:

Claritin
Benadryl

No sinus meds. No tylenol cold. No advil cold. NOT EVEN NYQUIL.

I was SO pissed. Here I am, sick, needing meds, and the closest pharmacy is about 10 miles away in the OTHER direction and it closes in 10 minutes. not enough time. Must then go next door to cheesy grocery store (which does have a pharmacy, but which does not restrict use or purchase of items with pseudophederine--they're right on the shelves)

only problem--10 tabs of Advil cold & Sinus cost $8, instead of the $4 or $5 I used to pay at Target (and would have a choice of store-brand version for even cheaper).

This is just ridiculous. I understand the danger, but do they not think that people can buy these items elsewhere, or use another "drug" to get the same effects in Meth?

Holy shit--why not just stop selling lighters & matches (can make fire, you know), airplane glue and aerosols (Can be huffed, you know) and toilet paper rolls (can be made into impromptu marijuana pipes).


"Save the children"--of course, unless they're sick and need meds with pseudophederine in them, then they're fucked.

[prole_for_peace]

7. i get tired of everyone getting "punished" for what some are doing.

i can understand restricting this stuff so that a person can only get so much but damn.. i am buying one freaking box. now if i was getting a case...

and i am sure that anyone who really wants to make meth, will find some kind of substitute ingredient.

[Heddi]

12. Exactly. I get maybe 3 colds a year

And they're of differing varieties.

One may be more sinus
One may be more conjestion
One may be more respiratory
One may be stomach and sinus

etc.

So when I buy cold medicine (again, no more than 3 times in a year), I buy ONE box, with anywhere from 10-20 tabs. THAT'S IT.

Strange how benadryl leaves me feeling like I took a lortab--tired, goofy, TOTALLY unable to drive. If I take benadryl or store-brand equivalent, I have to stay in the house. My husband, however, can take the same dose and function as normal.

I'd think that taking benadryl is more dangerous (re: side effects) than the POSSIBILITY that I MAY just PERHAPS buy a box of Advil Sinus & Cold and go home and POSSIBLY MAYBE ONE DAY make some meth out of it.

Why not just restrict how much people can buy at once? I don't necessarily even agree with that (we buy a case of benadryl 1x a year at Costco b/c of our allergies, and we get the 3 pack of Nyquil at Costco during the wintertime for colds, etc). But come on.

It was fucking ridiculous. Here I am in the store, a fucking snot monster sneezing and honking and coughing and dripping all over the fucking place, and I had my choice of antihistamine or antihistamine to treat myself with.

Fuck
that
shit.

Again--ban fucking aerosols. NO MORE AQUANET---kids can huff it. I did, and so did most of my friends.

Outlaw the cardboard rolls in Toilet Paper & Paper Towels. I've used them MANY times to make impromptu reefer pipes. OH! The Children! Won't SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDRENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[alarimer]

50. And I am not sure they buy it off the shelf anyway

fortunately I can still find ClaritinD on the the shelf. it had pseudoepehdrine in it but it is mixed with loratidine so maybe they don steal that one.

[prole_for_peace]

56. they probably buy cases at sam's

or online. i doubt they are buying a few boxes at a time.

[alarimer]

59. Actually I was wrong

I have to buy Claritin D from the pharmacist. The regular versions is available but I have a lot of congestion with my allergies. I may try find something else that may work instead of going through the hassle. I sure as hell don't want to sign anything. What is that about? And what do they do with the list? Hand it over to the police if they are investigating? An allergy sufferers registry?? It seems vaguely sinister to me.

[Patty Diana]

19. Now they can justify tripling the price_they'll cite the added paperwork

[Bonhomme Richard]

8. Can't buy NyQuil but can still buy bullets.

Are we crazy or what?

[City Lights]

24. We aren't crazy.

They are. :-)

[slay]

9. Republicans are the "greatest danger to the nation's children"

not marijuana Gonzales, you idiot. Republicans are liars, thieves, criminals, mean, and all around hateful people. I'm not saying meth isn't a problem - it is. Maybe if the Republican assholes who run the country would actually help create better opportunities for people instead of letting us slug it out for the latest crappy wal-mart job, people wouldn't feel the need to sell or use drugs. Happy, secure, financially stable people don't usually mess around with hard core drugs. Period.

[Megahurtz]

13. Right on to that, Dude!

:thumbsup:

[Horse with no Name]

11. What's that I hear?

It's the sound of a new black market opening up for Sudafed...
This will just force the meth addicts to supply their own 7.5 grams/monthly of Sudafed allotments to their meth cooks.
Their truly isn't a good way out of this one.
What is truly great...and unique...about Sudafed is that it is CHEAP and EFFECTIVE. Anyone that suffers from sinus problems knows this and understands that a great burden has just been placed of folks like us.
In order to get it completely off the streets...then it will have to revert to prescription usage. There goes the cheap part. Drug may be cheap but MD office visit isn't.
Looks like more sinus headaches are in the future for me.:(

[Heddi]

14. Yep. I have HORRID sinus problems

When I get a sinus-related cold, Sudafed is what I use because IT WORKS. But nope--Target doesn't carry Sudafed (or anything else besides Claritin and Benadryl) on their cold-remedy shelves because it's DANGEROUS and you can only buy it if the store has a pharmacy--which mine didn't.

That was bullshit. Jesus. So now, not only do pharmacists have the right to hold my fucking BC prescription hostage, but they can decide whether or not I look like the type that has a cold, and whether or not I'm "allowed" to buy fucking sudafed.

Hhere's a fucking clue--I'm a 29 year old fucking adult fucking woman. I KNOW WHAT FUCKING MEDICINE I NEED...I shouldn't have to drive around my fucking town all night not only looking for a store that's open, but a store WITH a pharmacy THAT is open and THAT will sell me fucking sudafed.

[ihaveaquestion]

20. Dexatrim and the other OTC diet pills used to be made of

pseudophedrine (Sudafed), because it temporarily suppresses the appetite. If you can't find Sudafed, you might see if they carry these things.

[Heddi]

22. I thought of that

I'm a nursing student so I know that some products can be used for off-label purposes. (benadryl is an excellent sleep aide that doesn't cause dependence like Sleep-medicines do).

They don't have ANYTHING with pseudophederine OR alcohol in it (although they have a large beer/wine aisle :eyes: )

Benadryl and Claritin and store brands of each were the ONLY things on the cold-remedy aisles. It was creepy, like in a movie, because the shelves were just EMPTY.

bastids.

[ihaveaquestion]

30. Sorry.

Empty shelves? That does sound bizarre. I'll have to try to ask my pharmacist friend what she's hearing.

[Heddi]

32. yeah. it was freaky, like during a hurricane

and the shelves are empty. NOTHING there but Ben & Clar.

I don't know how long this has been in effect b/c we haven't gone to buy cold medicine in many months--so it could have just happened on Tuesday, or could have been that way since January. I don't know, but it was creepy.

[prole_for_peace]

57. the target near me has no more of this stuff on the shelves.

they have little hanging tags that you take to the pharm to get your "fix" (that's what "they" act like)

[Megahurtz]

15. Looks like they want EVERYTHING to be under prescription!

BIG$$$$$$$ BIG$$$$$$$$$$ favors for the Pharmaceutical Corporations!!!

[Heddi]

21. Yep. Not just Pharm co's but Insurance as well

Let's see--

In the "past" (read: 2 years ago), if I had a cold, I could go to the store, cruise the aisles, and get whatever I thought could help me, OTC, and get either brand name or in 99% of cases, store brand.

I paid no more than $6 for name-brand cold medicine.

Fast forward to Today:

I've got a cold

I call my Dr. to get an Rx for pseudophedrine-containing medicine.

Dr. needs to see me first.

Get an appointment for next week.

Pay $10 copay (for my insurance)

Waste 2-3 hours between drive there, wait, drive home, wait at pharmacy.

Get to pharmacy, must show proof of ID that I'm an old enough person to buy such heavy meds.

Pay $20 for 10 tabs of pseudophedrine-containing medicine.

So, instead of paying at MOST $6 for cold medicine, and spending no more than 30 minutes driving to the store, getting item, paying for item, and driving home, I:

Pay $30 for a $6 medicine
Wait 1 week for Dr's appt
Waste around 3 hours getting seen & medicine.

Yeah. That's efficient.

See---I KNOW when I have a cold. I KNOW When I have allergies. if benadryl could do it, I'd take fucking benadryl. I have a prefrontal cortex. i can make these decisions on my own.

I don't need my Dr to look at me and say "well, looks like you've got a sinus-related cold". DUH. I've had them all my life. Nothing new.

We have become a nation of fucking babies.

[Megahurtz]

37. Yeah, it's the new "Ask Your Doctor" brainwash.

Don't ever think for yourself, ask your doctor!!!

How many times have you seen this on TV? (well it's either that or car commercials for big oil$$$$$$)

Just a money scam for the "big corporations!"

I can't afford to keep "asking my doctor" and I wouldn't want to depend on one for everything anyway!

Fucking slaves is what we are! I just can't stand this country anymore.

[HuckleB]

49. Why would insurance companies care about this bill?

Now, in Oregon, they fought a bill requiring people to get prescriptions in order to get pseudoephedrine products. They don't want to pay for more physician visits. Oh, yeah. And the Pharms fought the prescription bill too.

[HuckleB]

47. No. Pharms fought the prescription bill in Oregon tooth and nail.

They lost. They won't sell as much of the medications, and they will lose money compared to the current system.

[DELUSIONAL]

33. one doctor said that the adult dose on OTC Sudafed is the pediatric dose

and when I get congested ears I have to up the dose.

Also I'm an asthmatic -- and I can beat an asthmatic episode IF I take a decongestant at the very earliest of symptoms. And when I get a cold it takes me much longer to get over the cold --

I expect that this new "do good" law -- will make the pharm industry richer AND many people will die because they couldn't get enough decongestant or they were too poor to go to a doctor.

[HuckleB]

51. Oregonians will soon know the prescription rule all too well.

Our legislature has already passed a plan to force people to get prescriptions for pseudoephedrine meds. The governor says he is glad to sign it. Funny enough, word on the street is that meth supplies from Mexico have already taken up the slack for those lost to the original over the counter plan. Why wouldn't they make up for the Rx plan and keep everything on par for meth users but out of whack for people with cold and sinus troubles?

Ugh. Prohibition doesn't work.

[hopein08]

55. Crap, then Wal-Mart will probably go with it too...

that's where I get my cheap generic Equate brand of sinus medicine. Anybody know any good herbal remedies for sinus problems?

This country isn't going to hell in a handbasket, it's being taking there by the government, including the Democrats.

[SmokingJacket]

58. you said it: CHEAP and EFFECTIVE

Cheap and effective medicine is going to be obsolete, just like the 50 cent paper back novel.

I don't have prescription coverage, and, lucky for me, the only thing I have is a chronic sinus condition that keeps me buying sudafed.

I'm going to start buying up the stuff now... of course, the feds will be knocking at my door, but it's worth it.

[dxdem]

16. Good to know

that we're focused on the real issues at hand.

[Patiod]

17. I need this stuff at least once a year for my annual sinus infection

and when I need it, I consume A LOT of it, but I'm willing to deal with the inconvenience and restrictions because of the virulence of the meth problem in this country. I don't know if these restrictions will help, but I don't feel my rights are being curtailed (not to imply that any of the other posters on this thread do either - and I do understand that this stuff can be a godsend when your eyes are streaming and your face is actually swollen with infection).

Had a discussion with a doctor I was interviewing for work recently - we were both laughing at the effort and money spent against marijuana (a drug where the main problem docs have with dope is finding some for cancer patients who want it) when there's such a galloping problem with meth (a drug that docs abhor because they see the ravages)

Why is this country spending a PENNY on marijuana control when meth is decimating families and communities, upping the rates of STDs (including AIDS) and maybe helping create super-bugs?

Every single fucking cent of "war on drug" money spent on dope should be re-directed to doing whatever needs to be done to curtail the meth epidemic.

Sorry for the rant, but the "war on drugs" is just about as well-run as the "war on terror"

[wli]

23. chronic sinusitis here

The bill is pure bullshit. Time to move out of the country to where I can live without severe chronic sinusitis.

[Megahurtz]

39. Yeah this country stinks.

Maybe that's the problem.

:sarcasm:

[wli]

41. but it's serious

If local regulations about OTC medicines are negatively affecting my health, moving to where they are not in effect is reasonable.

[Megahurtz]

42. I'm right there with you,

and if you put it that way you really have no choice!
Moving to another country would also have other benefits too. Like cleaner air in some countries.
And better government.

I just think things here are only going to get worse, so, why not move to a better place?

I'd like to start packing myself......

[OKNancy]

25. Some people are over reacting

As I posted up thread, you just have to ask the pharmacist for the stuff and sign a paper. If you can't live without Sudafed make sure you have some on hand if you need it a night time. It isn't a life or death drug ( of course it is a death drug in the wrong hands)

You can also get the gelcaps still over the counter. The program has been very successful here in Oklahoma and it's also had dramatic effects on the meth makers.

It's not a Republican vs Democrat issue. ( Although our Democratic governor and legislature passed it here)

[Heddi]

28. I hate to disagree, but it's not that simple

Tuesday night I went to my local Target at 8:30pm.

The ONLY MEDICINE in the Cold Remedy aisle were:

Benadryl (and store equivalent)

Claritin (and store equivalent)

There were no geltabs. There was NOTHING besides Benadryl and Claritin.

The Target in my town has NO pharmacy. The note on the store shelves said 'Sorry for the inconvenience, but Target has decided to only sell medicines with pseudophederine in stores WITH PHARMACIES. We regret any inconvenience this has caused you"

Well it caused a fuck of an inconvenience.

As I said above, the CLOSEST PHARMACY to to Target was over 10 miles away, and they close at 9:00. I guess I made the mistake of doing other shopping before I looked for cold medicine because I had NO time to purchase the other items I needed desperately AND get in the car AND drive 10 miles AND get there by 9:00. It was PHYSICALLY impossible.

To say "well, just have some on hand" is a great platitude, but many of us don't know we're going to get sick a week ahead of time, and we don't know whether we're going to have a stomach flu, a sinus cold, an upper respiratory cold, a general 'cold' cold, the aches and pains of the flu.

They didn't even have fucking THERAFLU and that has NO pseudophedereine in it.

It is a MAJOR inconveinence. I live in the sticks of Washington--nearly 200 miles from Seattle. There isn't a pharmacy on every corner, and things are spread out from one part of town to another.

Is sudafed a life or death drug? Absolutely not. But people should not have to suffer in misery if they cannot get a medicine when they need it. PSUEDOPHEDEREINE IS NOT METH. Once we ban this, what's next? do you think that NO OTHER DRUG INGREDIENTS could be used?

Luckily, I was able to go to a store next to Target that doesn't have such prohibitive views of a legally-available over the counter drug. Unforunately, I had to pay 2x's as much for the medicine than I would have if I had gotten it at an actual "drug-store".

Not everyone has that convenience. Yakima is a very economically depressed town. Many migrant and immigrant workers. Not everyone has a car. The busses stop running at 5:45pm. There is no "quick way" to get medicine at 9pm if your child is sick.

it's bad enough that people don't have adequate access to licensed medical professionals and preventative health care or emergency health care without selling their soul to the hospial to pay the bill. NOW, we can't even get LEGALLY AVAILABLE OTC DRUGS without having to jump through hoops, figure out 2 weeks early that you're going to get sick, AND get to the store in enough time to ensure that the pharmacy is open AND they'll be willing to sell you pseudophederine-added drugs.

I'm sorry. THis is unneeded and unnecessary.

Kids and adults huff (inhale) a variety of products in aerosol containers: Hairspray, WD40, spray paint. Why not ban THOSE? Huffing is JUST as much of a problem as Meth is, especially among children who are looking for a 'cheap high' that they can get without any ID or age-requirements. Let's ban THOSE. Let's ban airplane glue. Let's ban ANYTHING that ANYONE can use to MAYBE get a little bit of a buzz once in a while.

I'd say that Alcohol use is more of a problem than methamfetamine. However, the Target that wouldn't sell pseudophederine had a very large and all-encompassing aisle full of beer, malt liquor, wine, etc.

But hey! Let's just inconvenience people who get a cold at 6pm and can't get to the store til 8. Hey, it's okay. Just prepare to be sick.

Oh, and I'm sure you know that all drugs, including OTC ones, have expiration dates, and that it's not reccomended that you take drugs that have passed their expiration date.

That's why I only buy 10 tabs at once. That's all I need, and that gets me through the illness du jour. I'm sure I could go out and buy 1 box of every cold medicine in the aisle, but all colds aren't the same, they don't have the same symptoms, they don't require the same treatment. SO not only am I out $50 bucks to "prepare" for sickness that may or may not occur, I'm wasting money on drugs that will, no doubt, go bad before I ever get the chance to use them.

[Patty Diana]

40. The expiration date in pseudoephedrine is at the least 5 years

from date of manufacture

[HuckleB]

48. I don't necessarily have a problem with this bill.

We've lived under a bill copied from Oklahoma for a while now. Strangely, the price for generic Sudafed actually went down.

But now Oregon is going to force people to go to the physician to get a prescription in order to get Sudafed. I do have problems with that, as I don't see the benefits of either program. Local supplies may have been cut short for a while, but out of country suppliers quickly fill the gap. Further, short supply means increased prices, which traditionally means increased crime. I just don't see this as a real solution. It has "feel good" written all over it.

[ElectroPrincess]

27. Just another stop gap attempt ... treating the symptoms (supply)

and not the disease (demand for meth).

These horse's asses are both lazy and stingy. The money would be much better spent on quality "Drug Recovery Programs." So we get to pay for our Representatives' incompetence by having to ask for what should be considered SIMPLE medications. Why not just have a limit of one or two boxes IF you must try that route?

[IA_Seth]

29. One reason this sucks....

Iowa has a current law that is a little more strict than the federal law being discussed, which would be nullified if this passes.

It is a HUGE pain to deal with (try buying sinus medicine in the middle of the night when the pharmacy is closed at most stores), but to me it is well worth it.

Meth is THE worst drug out there.

[pitohui]

35. you noticed how these laws have cut the supply of meth

oh wait

all laws like this do is guarantee that meth on the street is made from garbage precursors rather than clean precursors

meth from the 70s didn't make teeth and hair fall out

chemistry is still taught in the high schools, meth and crack will always be cooked, do you want them cooked from clean stuff or dirty

meth does not have to be the worse drug

it has been around for decades and did little harm until the war on precursors got going strong

[IA_Seth]

60. Yes, as a matter of fact....

I have noticed a decrease in meth use in my community. Our law enforcement in Iowa is also heavy on treatment, something that HAS to be coupled with strict pre-cursor laws.

Ya know, I know some meth-heads, and I know that the crap just gets dirtier and dirtier. I guess if people are going to poison themselves to the point their teeth and hair fall out, their skin ruptures and cracks, their minds break and their fingernails fall out then we have to do SOMETHING to stop it from being made and to stop it from being used.

What would you suggest, other than prevention and removal of precursors?

[MadHound]

31. You know what is funny, in a pathetic sort of way?

That is that such a bill is going to do nothing to stop the spread of meth. Absolutely nothing. We started this BS in Missouri a few weeks ago, and the reporters and police are already stating that there is an upturn in the amount of Mexican meth coming into the state.

In addition, the meth cookers will simply turn to other ingredients. Law enforcement forgets that meth is itself a response to the crackdown on amphetemines during the late seventies-early eightie. Prescriptions became much more difficult to get, so the speed freaks starting cooking up their own, and gee, look at the hell it unleashed. Now that pseudoephedrine isn't going to be easily available, these people will simply start using another recepie to cook up their shit. There are a number of different ways to get the desired drug, without using cold medicines. But it will mean that these meth labs are going to be even more dangerous and toxic, and the final product will destroy people at a faster rate and to a greater degree.

What we need to do is simply legalize it all, make it available to the public much like we do with alcohol. And you know what? After an initial "euphoric peak", the rate of drug use and abuse will go down, the secondary crime wave brought about by the illegal drug market will go away, we will have happy productive tax paying citizens, political and law enforcement corruption will go down, and we will have another tax stream to use.

It is amply apparent that the War on Drugs solves nothing, and insteads creates ever more, and ever increasing problems in our society. It is time to throw it away, now.

[pitohui]

36. you are a smart cookie

We started this BS in Missouri a few weeks ago, and the reporters and police are already stating that there is an upturn in the amount of Mexican meth coming into the state.



so we're enriching foreign chemists at the expense of locals

what a triumph of the law, giving price support to mexican drug dealers

[MadHound]

38. And what is really sad is

That Mexicans have been forced into becoming illegal chemists due to NAFTA and other trade policies have absolutely devestated the agriculture sector there. There are literally millions of farmers out of work in Mexico because we're flooding their food market with cheap US food, so with jobs scarce, they turn to backyard chemistry.

Gotta love "free" trade:eyes:

[Jackpine Radical]

43. I did three forensic psych eval interviews his morning.

2 of the 3 were meth cases.

Meth isn't like other drugs. I actually wish those kids had been using cocaine or heroin instead. Among its other side effects, meth burns out the pleasure circuitry of the brain. This results in long-term anhedonia and a pervasive dysthymia. We don't know whether the dopamine receptor destruction is permanent, so we don't know if these kids are ever going to experience much pleasure in life again.

I oppose most drug legislation, but if keeping pseudoephedrine behind the counter makes it harder for meth labs to operate, I'm for it.

[pitohui]

44. they should keep the story straight

used to be cocaine was the drug burned out the dopamine receptors

used to be heroin caused a mother to forget her child

meth was for the working man or the trucker who needed some overtime

now meth is the bad guy and you say better to use cocaine or heroin than meth

this is why people get skeptical

some of us actually have a long-term memory

[cookiebird]

45. Keep it state-level

We really don't need the federal nanny for this one. The states can effectively mandate OTC status for these kinds of medications. If you get a federal law, there will be paperwork and reporting to some federal agency on your buying habits. Caution, I advise.

[Robb]

46. Sorry for the inconvenience, folks, but too bad.

This is NOT a casual drug problem that can be compared to other drugs.

I'm an EMS worker. Aside from the horrible effects of meth use, which you can read about anywhere, let me tell you what we come across that NOBODY came across before with other drugs:

Meth labs produce waste byproducts that meth cookers (because they are also addicts) don't dispose of properly. About every month one of the poor SOB's picking up trash along the side of the highway (usually volunteers, often elderly) grabs a poorly closed plastic trash sack and gets an exposure that puts them in the hospital for three days.

The chemicals involved cannot be metabolized by the body. So the body excretes them, typically through the skin causing horrible, terrifying sores.

Ambulance drivers and EMTs I work with tell stories about responding to fires in the past two years in rural communities, double-wides on 35 acres in the sticks. Kids so exposed they're going to be in the health care system forever.

A good friend in law enforcement showed up on a call when the mom called the ambulance because her 3 year-old daughter wasn't breathing ... cop buddy stepped on nails from a buried plank. EMT rolled through similar with the stretcher. Sheriff's office later described the WHOLE LOT booby-trapped, broken glass, needles, even a bomb. To say nothing of the chemicals that took a week to clean up with everyone dressed up like Teletubbies from Mars.

All this for a product where you spend $200 on ingredients to earn $800 IF you sell the whole batch, which you usually don't.

This is a drug for the poor, the desperate, and ultimately the paranoid. Most stores in Colorado restrict the number of ingredients you can purchase at once. Smaller producers are being driven out of business because they can't afford to hire the 11 year-old "runners" to head out to different stores all over town. It kills off the little meth labs, which are the ones who have no FUCKING IDEA what they're doing.

So production moves off-shore? Pardon my insensitivity, but great. It means two things: the cost of the drug will increase, which means fewer poor people will be able to afford it, and maybe the problem will move into the class of people who may actually take some action about it; and secondly, I won't have to carry the goddamn biohazard crap every time I head out on a call.

Passing the problem on? Better believe it. :grr:

[Jackpine Radical]

53. I'm the chief Community Corrections psychologist

for a sparsely populated 16-county region of NW WI. This region, with maybe 7% of the state's population, has 58% of all meth criminal cases in the state.

I never bought into the coke or heroin mythology, have always thought the drug laws are stupid & counterproductive, & figure that, by and large, (tobacco) cigs & alcohol are far more destructive to society than all the illegal stuff put together.

Meth scares the crap out of me. Their teeth crumble, their eyes sink, they go into severe depressions on withdrawal & sometimes they go into florid psychotic episodes. I don't know this from reading some gubbmint scare literature. I learned it by watching them. I've responded to urgent calls from jails who wanted psych evals of flipped-out, psychotic inmates. I interviewed a guy who fled the cops & holed himself up at home with an arsenal of deer rifles, shotguns & large-caliber pistols, prepared to shoot it out with the cops who had him surrounded. Turned out the "black & whites" in that case were the neighbor's Holstein cattle. Meth cases.

Robb knows what he's talking about.

[Heddi]

52. The Other ingredients of Meth that are freely available:

http://www.totse.com/en/drugs/speedy_drugs/165183.html


Psuedoephedrine (regulated at many pharmacies and stores. People can only buy limited quantites, buy directly from the pharmacist, or are prevented from buying alltogether depending on store policy)

Iodine crystals
Iodine is watched by the goverment and they will take your ID and put you on the list if you buy it from a chemical supplier. So the safest way to get it is to go to a pharmacy and ask for Iodine Tincture. If they ask what it is for say that it is for your horse. It is used on horses for a problem with there hooves. The probaly wont ask though. It is sold in 1oz. bottles and you can usually get about a gram of pure iodine crystals from one bottle. The problem with this is that you will need to go to many pharmacies and just buy a few bottles at each one. That way they dont get suspicious. I made up a synthesis on converting iodine tincture. It is on the main page. {{New Info!!-- You can purchase iodine tincture in gallon and 1/2 gallon sizes at any Quality Farm & Fleet. But don't buy to many of them. I would recomend only buying a gallon at a time. It is about $12.00 for a gallon. Just take it up to a cashier that is young and stupid. They shouldn't ask any questions. This way is much easier than going around to a hundred different pharmacies and buying it in 1oz. bottles. A lot cheaper too!!}}

Red Phosphorus (RP)

RP is made from the strike pad on a match book.


Crystal Meth Ingredients
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There are only 3 main ingredients to making crystal meth. This are how to get them...

1. Psuedoephedrine (E)

This is the active ingredient in Sudafed. I would recomend getting the generic brand. They are about $8.00 for 96 pills. You can get these at any Pharmacy. Of course they are over the counter. In the methhead synthesis he goes about extracting it in a different way. The easiest way is to crush the pills and let them soak in denatured alcohol for 4 to 8 hours. You can get denatured alcohol at any hardware store. It is by the paint thinner and mineral spirits. Then filter and take the liquid and slowly boil it on the stove until it gets down to the bottom. You will want to finish the drying with a hair dryer so you dont burn the psuedo. Now take the powder and mix it with distilled water. Let it settle and set it in the freezer for 1/2 an hour. Now take the semi-frozen liquid and filter again. Take the psueo water and slowly boil it again. Take out the hair dryer and finish drying it. Now its powdered....and you have pure psuedo.

2.Iodine crystals (I2)

Iodine is watched by the goverment and they will take your ID and put you on the list if you buy it from a chemical supplier. So the safest way to get it is to go to a pharmacy and ask for Iodine Tincture. If they ask what it is for say that it is for your horse. It is used on horses for a problem with there hooves. The probaly wont ask though. It is sold in 1oz. bottles and you can usually get about a gram of pure iodine crystals from one bottle. The problem with this is that you will need to go to many pharmacies and just buy a few bottles at each one. That way they dont get suspicious. I made up a synthesis on converting iodine tincture. It is on the main page. {{New Info!!-- You can purchase iodine tincture in gallon and 1/2 gallon sizes at any Quality Farm & Fleet. But don't buy to many of them. I would recomend only buying a gallon at a time. It is about $12.00 for a gallon. Just take it up to a cashier that is young and stupid. They shouldn't ask any questions. This way is much easier than going around to a hundred different pharmacies and buying it in 1oz. bottles. A lot cheaper too!!}}

3.Red Phosphorus (RP)

RP is made from the strike pad on a match book. NOT the matches themselves but the pad it is striked on. If there is a Spartan store around your area go to it and buy some boxes of match books. I recomend the Spartan brand cause it comes off easy and is cheap. The match books should have a light brown or reddish striler on them. Not the stripped or dotted kind. The smooth light brown striker is what you want. There is also a sythesis that i wrote up on how to get the RP off the match books on the main page.

Ok, next i will list some of the other shit you will need and where to get it....

1.Colemans Fuel----sporting goods store, K-mart or Walmart

2.Muriatic Acid (HCl)---any hardware store. also near the paint thinners.

3.Acetone---any hardware store

4.Methanol---dont recomend it. use denatured alcohol instead. also near the paint thinners.

5.Tubing & PVC connectors---any hardware store

6.Flask---hobby store, chem supplier

7.Red Devil Lye---In a lot of K-mart or Walmart type stores. Or maybe even in your local grocerie store. It is by the drain cleaners in a little white bottles with a red top. It is a very strong drain cleaner. Just look in a bunch of different stores and you will find it.

8.PH strips---hobby store or you can make your own with red cabbage.

9.Vision Ware Bowl---K-Mart or someplace like that. It has to withstand high temps. and be able to go from the stove right into ice water. Look in kitchen stores also. My buddy had a very hard time finding one of these cause he lives in a little town. Just go somewhere that has a lot of pots and pans and stuff.

---
ALLLLL except for TWO ingredients of meth are somewhat regulated---psuedophederine and iodine.

If meth is such a problem (which I do NOT state that it is not. As a student nurse, I've seen my share of damage done by meth and it is NOT acceptable), WHY aren't ALL the ingredients of meth regulated like pseudophederine is?

Why can Muriatic Acid, Acetone, Methanol, and Lye be sold without ANY need for government regulation, but pseudophederine is now the subject of control?

If you're for the crackdown on meth, and if one of your concerns is the toxicity of methamphetamine, WHY then aren't there more controls on the actual TOXIC SUBSTANCES that make meth toxic? It seems that the pseudophederine is the LEAST dangerous thing of the chemical makeup of meth.

[eShirl]

54. Will herbal ephedra (ma huang) still be available at health food stores?

I seem to remember a tea for colds using the herb ephedra.

[Moosepoop]

61. Ephedra is already illegal

Ephedra (ma huang) was banned awhile back. It is no longer allowed on any store shelves. Had to do with causing heart attacks and strokes due to people taking high dosages, and the manufacturers not reporting or covering up reports of these deaths and near-deaths.
So it was banned altogether.