Ohio Families Fed Up With Loss of Marines

[Judi Lynn]

Ohio Families Fed Up With Loss of Marines

Ohio Families Fed Up With Casualties From Battalion in Iraq That Lost 21 in Six Days

By JOE DANBORN Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio Aug 4, 2005 — Rosemary Palmer and her husband were making plans to attend memorial services for six Marine reservists killed earlier this week five of them from the same battalion as her son, Lance Cpl. Edward Schroeder when two uniformed servicemen came down her street.

It was her family's turn.

"We knew. They didn't even get a chance to knock," Palmer said.

For relatives of those in the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines, there has been a sudden spike in such grim visits from uniformed servicemen.
(snip/...)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1007098

[murielm99]

1. This just sickens me.

And Ohioans should be fed up with everything in their state. They should make some changes, or consider getting out the torches and pitchforks. I feel for these families and all of Ohio.

[jazzjunkysue]

85. I know. How can you even pick your nose in that state?

The nuns are corrupt. It's Soddam and Gamorra (Sorry for the spelling). Why did the devil pick Ohio for his playpen?

[Marthe48]

88. I live in Ohio I wish people would stop stereotyping the whole state

Probably 53% of us voted for Kerry anyway, but since the republicans own the voting machines, OH seems to have voted for the asshole. You'll never convince me that the exit polls in every swing state were wrong. I loathe the current state governemnt, especially turncoat Blackwell, and I wake up every day hoping that this is the day the bastards are hauled off to jail. And I'm not alone feeling this way, as a matter of fact I only know 2 people personally who voted for Bush and they're pretty much dim overall.

Next--this kind of tragedy shouldn't be 'anyone's turn' No family should have to endure the loss of their loved ones, especially when the "cause" makes about as much sense as drive-by shootings and is hyped by the same kind of thugs.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EST]

2. Although the headline says they are getting fed up,

the general tone of the article certainly suggests otherwise. It appears they are nervous, a bit unhappy, perhaps, and certainly keenly sorrowful for those closely involved, but far more resigned to the inevitible rather than fed up.
Oh how I wish they would get fed up enough to peek behind the curtain of their own ideolegical blindness and recognize the unwinnable horror the greed of the neocon imperialists has blundered into.

[ninkasi]

3. On the local news this morning

I saw an interview with a father who had just lost his son. His only consolation seemed to be that he was proud that his son stood up for justice, and we all needed to remember what happened on 9-11.

We at DU do remember what happened; the problem is that the country where this man's son was killed had nothing to do with the events of that day. As long as the grieving families can resort to falsehoods to give them comfort, what chance is there that this war will ever end?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

24. They love Bush more than their own children...

These people drank the Kool-Aid and went back for seconds. They offer up their own flesh and blood like sacrificial lambs to the most corrupt administration in U.S. History -- and that would include Grant, Harding, Nixon, and Reagan (all Republicans, gosh).

There's nothing you can do about them. Or for them. They're beyond any power of persuasion -- if they didn't get the clue when their kid came home in a body bag, it's just not going to happen.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. "They love Bush more than their own children"?? Do you ever read....

...your comments over before hitting the "Post Message" button? Do you actually believe that crap?

[Coventina]

39. I've got some bad news for you....it's probably true

I have no doubt in my mind that *some* of these militaristic parents love "Bush" or "America" or some other symbolized idea of their "country" more than their own children.

How do I know this? Because my own father is the same way.
The only difference is that instead of "America" substitute "The Church".

[roguevalley]

76. parents losing their kids this way get a pass. they get a chance for

a long emotional learning curve. they were told their kids burned to death. they get a pass.

[Barkley]

108. Coventina, you have a point.

I have a friend who quit the Marine Officer Training because their philosophy promoted placing the Marines above the family.

Its "God, the Marines and then family" if I am not mistaken.

[truth2power]

40. I don't know how anyone can come to any other conclusion.

Continuing to support Bush even after your child comes home in a body bag??

If my child was killed in Iraq, I would be on every media outlet available, CURSING the name of Bush and all of his descendants unto the 10th generation.

[OhioChick]

41. Some are verbal BUT...........

it seems they never are "heard." Who do you go to if no one wants to listen? Sad situation.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4805602/detail.html

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

43. Yes...

When you see some guy on the news who has just lost his son in Iraq, ranting about how much he supports the President, it would be difficult to come to any other conclusion.

[Felix Mala]

63. Such rants lure more children to the altar, keeps feeding the

death machinery in Iraq...

[ElectroPrincess]

92. But most important, the cannon fodder enriches The War Machine, Inc.

War profiteering anyone? Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Blackwater, CACI, and our FAV = Halliburton etc. etc.

Profits are all powerful and worth sacrificing other people's children. :sarcasm:

[jamesinca]

107. Be the first

be the first one your block to have your boy come home in a box. And its one two three, what are we fighting for, don't ask me I don't give a dam... and so the song goes.

Regardless of how they voted or the media depiction of what is happening, a human life was lost. I have never lost a child, I can only imagine what it is like.

I must say I hope that if they truly want this war, and they are of age they should go. If they are the parent of a child and they truly want this war, both the parent and child, then let them go. It is what they wanted, they got what they wanted so there should be no remorse from them. It has been 4 years since 9/11 it has been 2-1/2 since Iraq started. If they have not figured it out at this point they never will. There are those that are in the military who do not believe in this war, but have been sent. It is a tragedy when they die. Somehow when the loss of life is of a war supporter I am not as concerned. I don't know why, maybe somewhere in my head I feel they are less than human. I know they are humans, but I just don't seem to care as much. I am not celebrating their death and I don't take pleasure in it, I am just not as concerned or upset. Someday I will sort that out in my head.

On edit: That was some pointless rambling I just did, but I do feel better.

[LTRS]

55. Clearly right wing nuts put party before family...

their country, their values, etc.

They may not consciously think of it that way, but that's the bottom line. When you vote republican you are voting for an enormous debt for your children, trashing of the very air they breath, and in favor of wars based on lies that will eventually kill them if they are foolish enough to join the military.

I knew a republican once had a son who died of AIDS back in the 80's. He claimed to have loved his son, but denigrated gay people constantly. I finally tired of it and asked him, "how could you love your son yet vote for the people who adamantly denied funding for the research that would have kept him alive?" He had no answer.

[neuvocat]

69. I think he's right.

These people lost their children and they're using their national pride to excuse Bush for an irresponsible war.

[jazzjunkysue]

87. Who's book is it? War gives us meaning? Something like that.

[jab105]

99. War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges

absoltuely incredible book, really explains how the go get um, war-loving truly feel...I recommend it...

[jazzjunkysue]

100. Thanks!

[Mari333]

42. its more complicated then that

I marched against this war and against Bush from the beginning..I still ended up having a stepson go to Iraq, and thank god hes home now..many of the soldiers did sign up before Bush came into office..and you cannot stop a 21 yr old from going, no matter how much you beg them not to go..if anything, it radicallized my stepson, who hates Bush with a passion.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

54. I wasn't really talking about the soldiers...

I meant the parents who lose a child in this foolishness, but still support the war.

But you're right that it is more complicated. I have no personal experience, but I'm sure it would be terribly difficult to reconcile one's loss with the fact that the war itself was a boondoggle. Maybe the only thing holding one together is the (false) belief that it was a noble cause and worth dying for.

[EST]

68. People see their level of responsibility in different ways.

Enlightened people can recognize that they are responsible, and accountable, at all levels - self, family, community, country, and ultimately, society, as a whole.
Some can only see responsibility at the level of self and others get stuck at some other level. Compassion requires us to understand none is totally right, and none totally wrong. Some of us simply get stuck and cannot recognize that there may be much, much more to the story than we can see, right now.
We have the responsibility of allowing and encouraging "spiritual" growth where ever we can.

[roguevalley]

78. you have people who did all they were supposed to do, pay taxes,

work hard, educate their kids, do all the steps. Then this happens. The country they LOVE and BELIEVE IN betrayed them. Their beloved country betrayed them. Give them time. They will see it. Not today though. The shift they will eventually reach will cause them to question every notion and every belief and feeling they have for America. Parents in this position get a pass. They will conclude the truth eventually but not now. For heavens sake! They were just told their children burned to death. Give them time.

[Felix Mala]

65. Remember 9/11 and Afghanistan: We were united, men signed

up to go after bin Laden. Who knew it was going to turn into a conflict of arrogance and personality faults.

[VegasWolf]

53. Sad to say, you may be right. Quotes like, "I'm proud he died because

of 9/11" certainly make one wonder. How drunk with KoolAid
are these parents?

[jazzjunkysue]

86. Give them time. It will sink in after the shock has waned.

I believe that. They thought shrub would keep their little boy safe. It takes time for bubbles to burst, but they do.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. They "resort" to such thinking because they don't know differently,...

...and for them to think right now that their child's life was wasted would be even more devastating.

How about we do less slamming of the victims of this war, and do more about pointing the finger of blame in the direction of the NeoCons and their many enablers?

And IMHO, a good portion of that blame goes to the mainstream media for helping to create the anti-Iraqi sentiment held by so many in the U. S. As hard as it is for certain DUers to understand, a very large number of American households do not have access to the Internet and the ability to discover that the NeoCon Junta has repeatedly lied to them about the illegal and immoral invasion/occupation of Iraq.

[Pastiche423]

66. In the late 1960's/early 1970's

I did not have the internet.

Yet I knew that the war in Viet Nam was based on a lie. Ergo, the ability to discover what was really going on and not what the government was promoting was there for anyone who chose to be informed.

Using the access/non-access to the internet is a lame excuse for those who are too apathetic or too lazy to learn about the world in which we live.

[EST]

60. Some, such as ourselves, can see the truth right away,

many in advance. Some, after having their noses rubbed in it, will get it eventually. Some will simply never, ever recognize it. Those are the "dead enders" or "bitter enders" that Don Rumfilled is fond of referring to. They must be out waited, out lived, or out numbered.

[Disturbed]

4. The 5 stages of grief

The 5 stages of grief

There 5 stages of grief. Learn what to expect after a loss.

Grief is a somewhat commplicated and misunderstood emotion. Yet, grief is something that, unfortunately, we must all experience at some time or other. We will all inevitably experience loss. Whether it is a loss through death, divorce or some other loss, the stages of grieving are the same.

There are five stages of grief. If we get stuck in one stage or the other, the process of grieving is not complete, and cannot be complete. Thus there will be no healing. A person MUST go through the five stages to be well again, to heal. Not everyone goes through the stages at the same time. It is different for each person. You cannot force a person through the stages, they have to go at their own pace, and you may go one step forward then take two steps backward, but this is all part of the process, and individual to each person. But, as stressed, ALL five stages must be completed for healing to occur.

The five stages of grief are:

1-Denial-"this can't be happening to me", looking for the former spouse in familia places, or if it is death, setting the table for the person or acting as if they are still in living there. No crying. Not accepting or even acknowledging the loss.

2-Anger-"why me?", feelings of wanting to fight back or get even with spouse of divorce, for death, anger at the deceased, blaming them for leaving.

3-Bargaining-bargaining often takes place before the loss. Attempting to make deals with the spouse who is leaving, or attempting to make deals with God to stop or change the loss. Begging, wishing, praying for them to come back.

4-Depression-overwhelming feelings of hopelessness, frustration, bitterness, self pity, mourning loss of person as well as the hopes, dreams and plans for the future. Feeling lack of control, feeling numb. Perhaps feeling suicidal.

5-Acceptance-there is a difference between resignation and acceptance. You have to accept the loss, not just try to bear it quietly. Realization that it takes two to make or break a marriage. Realization that the person is gone (in death) that it is not their fault, they didn't leave you on purpose. (even in cases of suicide, often the deceased person, was not in their right frame of mind) Finding the good that can come out of the pain of loss, finding comfort and healing. Our goals turn toward personal growth. Stay with fond memories of person.

Get help. You will survive. You will heal, even if you cannot believe that now, just know that it is true. To feel pain after loss is normal. It proves that we are alive, human. But we can't stop living. We have to become stronger, while not shutting off our feelings for the hope of one day being healed and finding love and/or happiness again. Helping others through something we have experienced is a wonderful way to fascilitate our healing and bring good out of something tragic.



© 2002 Pagewise

[lostnfound]

47. That photo speaks volumes. nt

[EST]

62. Of course, these stages may occur in any order and,

in some cases, occur at the same time or are telescoped such that they are not individually identifiable.

[Marthe48]

89. don't forget the story is filtered through some dumbass

who for whatever motive has to make this sacrifice appear to have a reason. A lot of times, Kool-aid doesn't come in a cup,ya know? And you can bet the people who write this tripe aren't leaving their comfort zone for a battle zone any time soon.

[EST]

101. Yup.

Worse yet, they are guaranteed to be sure they are right and righteous in the drivel they produce.

[hadrons]

5. so fed up, they keep voting for the Iraqi invasion cheerleaders ....

[rman]

19. probably not the same people... n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Yes, by all means, let's pile on to a family that has lost a member....

...of their family in Iraq. IMHO, your comments are totally inappropriate at a time like this...you should be ashamed of yourself.

I would wager that you don't have a clue what that family really thought about being in Iraq.

[truth2power]

45. MLD...if every one of the family members

of the 1800+ troops who have died in Iraq were in the media daily, opposing this war and calling Bush the monster that he is, troop withdrawals would already be taking place.

[hadrons]

57. my comments weren't directed to the specific families ...

but to half the people of Ohio

[ninkasi]

71. I would never do anything

to cause a grieving survivor more pain. When they are in such deep shock because of their recent loss, if thinking their loved one died for a noble cause, the only thing I could do is to tell them how sorry I was for that loss.

Privately, though, I would wonder how long it would take for the light to dawn on them, and if they showed signs of understanding, I would tell them the facts about the lies leading to the war, and give them as much information as I could.

I'm just puzzled, though, how otherwise normal people can look around and see the wreckage of their lives, and not realize that Bush has lied, or been wrong, about everything he has said. There is a chasm so deep and wide between us and the right-wingers and I can't understand how they can be so blind to his disastrous decisions.

[fasttense]

6. Seems the people in this story haven't

had the fact of their children's death sink in yet.

During Vietnam we saw a lot of this. First the parents are almost nonchalant about the loss of their children, then when it sinks in - watch out.

Some parents turned against the war and the government that had killed their children. They joined the peace movement and protested. Some parent became excessively patriotic and touted the war, and the government, as freedom fighters. The patriotic parents seemed to glorify the war as if this would glorify the deaths of their children.

But when the war was over and most people realized how a useless and hopeless the war was, the parents who became excessively patriotic had to deal with their grief all over again.

[devinsgram]

49. I lived through that era also,

Lost a good friend. Now I see it so differently. At first I was for the war and thought it was important that we be there, that was before I realized what the truth was. Eventually this country will wake up the what is happening and then watch out. These neo-cons that have done this to us,well, let's just say, there will be no place for them to hide.

[xchrom]

7. i feel nothing but sorrow for these people.

the best thing i can do -- or anyone can do -- is to keep fighting to bring them home NOW.

we can't count on them to bushco for what it is -- to much of that would have them see our current situation for what it is -- young, not rich folk simply being murdered to line the pockets of a few with more money.

this war is about MONEY and not politics or ideals.
these good folk and fellow citizens are not dying to protect anyone's freedom -- how bitter is that?

[Mr. Peanut]

9. Ohio - remember Kent State?

A campus protest against the Vietnam war turned deadly. The incident became a symbol and an inspiration to others to join the protest. Don't let your sons and daughters die in vain. Take your grief to the Oval Office to demand an end to this insanity.

[Skittles]

8. I used to make these notifications

not for war but they were airman deaths nonetheless.....it always occurred to me that what I wore, what I said, how I said it - they'd remember it the rest of their lives, as woould I. It is a surpremely sad, distressing moment - the kind of duty you tell yourself, "I will quit if I ever get used to this."

[Berry Cool]

11. What makes people assume that those in this article are NOT fed up?

Or that they voted for it to happen?

You know, *I* for one am getting REALLY fed up...with non-Ohioans on this forum assuming that ALL Ohioans voted red--then reading a story like this and saying things along the lines of "Well, it's high time these people realize what they voted for. They made their bed, now they can lie in it."

Especially about Brook Park, close to one of the bluest areas of the state.

You don't know how these people voted. And you don't know their vote was counted fairly.

Please. I'm really, really sick of everyone blaming "how Ohio voted" for what is going on now. I'm not so sure we KNOW how Ohio REALLY voted.

[HamdenRice]

13. Sorry -- not all Ohioans, but military families

I think the assumption is that military famlies tend to be big supporters of the shrub, and when they say things like they are proud that their son did something about 9/11 (as in the OP), then it's safe to assume that they have drunk the cool aid.

[Tesha]

14. The odds are that people who say "Remember 9/11!" are Bush voters (NT)

[Dogmudgeon]

15. Bravo!

I like Ohio quite a lot. (I'm from Pennsylvania.) There's nothing quite like a sunrise in Ohio -- the dew is all perfectly clean and glistening, and when it snows, even the snow there is just better.

I suspect Ohio's political color is going to undergo a major "Blue Shift" next election. Half the population just saw their vote get stolen (again), and a lot of their Marines are being sent overseas to die in a meat grinder of a war that was started because of lies made to the public by our supposedly simon-pure Maximum Leader.

There's really only one consolation about the Marines. They'll be buried in Ohio soil. Whatever monument you choose to honor them with, they will forever remind the world of the value of freedom -- and the price of imperial deceit.

With a heartfelt Semper Fidelis for those you have lost,

--p!

[HughBeaumont]

18. Don't count on it.

I don't know what will wake rural and southern Ohioans (where the most Repuke votes occur) up. Years of Taft running the state into the ground didn't do it. Four years of a do-nothing pretzeldent didn't do it. A shoddy scam of an election didn't do it.

It's sad that the state about to become third in Vietraq losses is probably going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. But these are HEADstrong bastards we're talking about here.

21 of the guys lost in 2 days were from my two friend's Brookpark unit. I breathed a sigh of relief when their names didn't come up on the list. But they could be next. And until I see them on American soil in November, I'll always be thinking and worried about them.

[theHandpuppet]

91. Respectfully, you are misinformed

You stated, "I don't know what will wake rural and southern Ohioans (where the most Repuke votes occur) up."

This is a common misperception about voting trends in Ohio. The most recent election in the 2nd District is an example; it was the four rural counties which voted for Hackett by substantial margins, whilst the urban counties (Greater Cincy) voted for Schmidt.

A more accurate description of voting trends would fall on an East/West line, not a North/South one, and though some urban areas such as Cleveland may be blue, others such as Cincinnati are very red. Also, if you will refer to the Ohio county map at http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/index.html where 2004 election results are indicated, you will see that many counties in the rural SE trended blue whereas counties in the western part of the state were strongly for Bush.

So please do not continue to circulate what is such a common misperception about Ohio voting; all you have to do is draw an East/West line down the middle of the state to see where the problem truly lies.

Edited to add: Here's a map of the 2000 Presidential vote from Ohio, county by county, which also supports the East/West divide between the Dem and GOP voters.

[HughBeaumont]

93. Handpuppet, NEED I point out ONCE again how wrong you are?

PLEASE don't make me dig out the 2004 "election" map of Ohio counties where the red and blue lay. Other than Franklin, Montgomery, Monroe, Belmont and Athens, that whole southern/far western area of Ohio is a sea of red. 5 counties out of 46(?) in the southern part of the state that went blue, and 1 barely at that. And yes, I've given the props to the eastern/southeastern part of the state who went for Kerry. When I say "rural", I'm talking about the western, central and southwestern wasteland counties of Ohio.

I'm sorry if you live in this part of the state and are trying SO hard on behalf of the Democrats to wake a bunch of sleeping dumbshits out of their comfort zone, but more and more it just seems like it's a losing battle. It's not so much that some of them like Republicans, it's that they really, REALLY HATE Democrats. That's unfortunately the fault of the media that allows the "Democrats = Moral Terpitude = Mawnica = who cares about their accomplishments" horseshit to proliferate and those people eat it up like mad. Not much can be done about that, lest one of us becomes a billionaire and starts a channel.

[theHandpuppet]

94. You don't have to dig it out...

Since I provided you with a link. And anyone with decent eyesight can see that when you simply write off "Southern Ohio" as the problematic "sea of red" you are WRONG. Bush's strongest support comes from WESTERN Ohio, from NW to SW, as maps for both the 2000 and 2004 elections clearly show.

I see you have now changed your original description from simply "Southern Ohio" to "Southern/far western area of Ohio" Well make up your mind. Which is it? Let's compare county numbers, shall we, and see where Bush's strength truly lies. How can you deny that comparatively speaking, Bush was weak in SE Ohio, especially in those counties along the Ohio? SE and SW Ohio are VERY different in many, many ways, as different as Cleveland and Cincinnati. The results of the most recent election (Hackett/Schmidt) only illustrates that point for me.

It doesn't take rocket science to see that you could split Ohio in half in eastern and western portions and get a truer picture of where the Republican heartland truly lies.

[theHandpuppet]

95. By the way...

I think you might find these statistics of interest -- they explain a lot.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/OH/P/00/epolls.0.html

[madmom]

17. Thank- you n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. Now you're beginning to understand why so many Southern DUers....

...are no longer willing to accept blanket statements made by posters on this board about voters in the South and how "they're getting what they voted for".

IMHO, DU posters do not support the NeoCons in any way and have repeatedly voted against Herr Busch and any candidates supporting the NeoCons.

The only exceptions to the above are those DU posters who are former and/or current GOPers that voted for Herr Busch in 2000 and/or 2004 who are now opposed to the fascist regime of the NeoCons.

[Dogmudgeon]

73. I'm among their number

And I'm a Yankee. (Actually, part of my family is from the South -- but not a big part of it.)

I've always hated that phony redneck crap, where people imitate (in writing) a "typical Southerner". I've know a lot of extremely intelligent Southerners, and most of them have been liberal / progressive. I have two cousins from Florida who are NASA engineers; a great-great uncle of mine from WV invented a train hitch method that became the standard throughout the world; etc.

Southerners are NOT "getting what they voted for". They're getting screwed like the rest of us.

--p!

[HamdenRice]

12. That is amazing, compassionate service nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. That is a terrible duty to have had to perform. IMHO, your approach....

...to the performance of that duty is highly commended.

I will never forget the scene in the movie, "We Were Soldiers Once and Young", when the battalion commander's wife took over the duties of notifying the families of the fallen from an elderly cab driver who wanted to be anywhere else instead of having to deliver such terrible news.

[HamdenRice]

10. RW families of slain soldiers experience "Cognitive Dissonance"

It's very tragic for these families. Unfortunately, it probably will not be a learning experience because of cognitive dissonance. They were "patriotic" and committed to the war. Rather than realize that their sons and daughters were sacrificed for oil, greed, treason and shrub's oedipal complex, because of the tremendous price they paid they may elevate the war cause even higher and become more patriotic -- at least at first. This is what some of their reactions sound like.

Tom Cruise, back when he was a real actor, portrayed this brilliantly in Oliver Stone's "Born on the Fourth of July."

[Dogmudgeon]

16. I think you're being too pessimistic

I understand it, but coming from a military family, I can vouch for the fact that the pro-Republican slant is a mile wide and an inch deep.

We're all patriotic, and we all know the military very well. Even those of us who have been anti-war since we've been able to watch TV understand the difference between military service and fealty to the Republican party. The military itself does not monger war; they are deployed cynically (most often) or wisely (very rare), and for the most part, bust their asses to be as humane as they can to those under their control.

Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are aberrations in a corrupt leader's playtime war. But under a corrupt leader, aberrations always become easy. For every day Lynndie England does in the brig, Bush and his staff should do a year.

There are very few out-and-out conservatives in my family. We were more conservative until the 1950s, but even before the social changes of the 1960s, a couple of our members took major screwings-over from the Right.

For example, my father, a chief warrant officer in the Army, was Jewish, and was not blind to the remnants of anti-Semitism he occasionally encountered. He also had a black buddy who was blamed for the malfeasance of a white superior officer; he saw a lot of other politically-centered bullshit, too. He never lost his patriotism, but he stopped complaining about the protesters and changed his registration from R to D. And his children all became anti-war but remained pro-soldier.

I have met a lot of people who have similar stories.

The Right will eventually destroy itself, and probably soon, since they are now on the political equivalent of a cocaine bender. There are a lot of patriotic, "conservative", and often "Christian" folks who used to say "Freedom Isn't Free" who now say "The Price of a Lie is Too Much to Pay".

--p!

[Seabiscuit]

44. "The Price of a Lie is Too Much to Pay" - I like that. If only the Ohio

people who voted for Shrub had thought about that before voting for Shrub last November they might not be grieving today.

[atreides1]

52. Not only Ohio

If all the people of this country that voted for Bush had thought about that before voting. This isn't only Ohio, 49 other states had Bush voters as well.

I am truly sorry that these men were led to their deaths by lies and decpetion, and I will say a prayer for the families, even those that
continue to support Bush and his war.

Semper Fi Marines, it's just too bad that your CinC wasn't as faithful to you as you were to him.

[frictionlessO]

64. Yep similar story here Pigwidgeon.

Wish many many more would realize that.

[maxrandb]

20. Fed Up Enough to do What???

Vote more neo-cons into office???

I'm a Buckeye, and I am military, and I feel nothing but deep sorrow for these families.

"Ohio. I'm looking at death and destruction at your door. I'm looking at corruption in the Ohio Republican Party so deep, that it will take a generation to fix. I'm looking at your state legislature being 60-30 Repuke over Dems. I'm looking at a state that at one time stood for independence and individual freedom, that is now a "one-party", "my way or the highway" run piece of shit." I don't recognize my once great state anymore."

You'd "effing" elect Saddam if he ran as a Republican. You get what you "effing" sew.

What are you prepared to do in 2006 or 2008? What are you prepared to do, so that you are no longer "fed-up". When are you going to look your Republican masters in the face and tell them "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore".

[madmom]

46. Yep Ohio is totally...

dumbed down. I think it started at Kent St. when repuke gov. James Rhodes' no go guardsmens killed american students that had pelted them with marshmellows(these guys were deployed without provisions)and tried to put flowers in there gun barrels.Fuck Ohio I'm leaving as soon as possible.There is no hope for these dickheads.

[maxrandb]

48. I May Have Been a Bit "Over the Top"

but watching an entire community grieve over young people that were "blown to bits", tends to make us all a little emotional.

There is NOT "no hope for these dickheads". Hacketts campaign showed us that. However, like the alcoholic or drug addict, sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you find the courage, fortitude, and determination to pull yourself back up.

Ohio is teetering on the brink of "rock bottom".

My only hope is that the rest of our country wakes up, before we hit "rock bottom".

As it is right now, it's going to take several generations of Americans to dig us out of the hole these "________ers" put us in, in just 4.5 short years.

And they asked; "How Much Damage Could He Do"???

[mtnester]

21. Lima Company alone since Mid May has lost

it is either 22 or 23 soldiers to DEATH (clarification on numbers will come this afternoon)

Another 60+ have been lost to trauma and injury. Lima Company has been decimated, and they are based straight out of the center of our state.

The Brook Park company is suffering just as hard.

When will we wake up to the simple fact that with the best military money can buy, we cannot win this "war against extremism" or whatever word spin they they have for it now....not to mention if we cannot win/control/contain it with the best trained and equipped forces on the planet, how in the HELL are we going to train Iraqi troops to do something WE cannot even do? And BTW, a lot of these "insurgents" are doing EXACTLY what we would be doing if the situations were reversed. Do you think you would throw a flaming cocktail at some group of people who had slaughtered one of your family members or friends last week/month/year if we were living in a country occupied by the unwelcome?

Such a no-win situation...we need to bring these sons and daughters home now, let the Iraqis sort it out (cause they will whether we are there or not) and GO.

Of course, that would leave the oil fields controlled by Iraqis. What to do if you were Georgie. I think we have THAT answer. He would rather continue to sacrifice our children than give up one drop of that oil.

May God bless and hold close in comfort all families who have lost loved ones to this conflict.

[seriousstan]

22. The REAL headline is....Ohio Families Feel Loss of Marines in Iraq

I believe it is LBN rules to use the actual headline.

[Mari333]

29. Original headline was "Ohio Families Fed UP with Loss"

it was changed, per the Bush talking points people alerting the MSM to follow orders

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-08,GGLD:en&q=ohio+families+fed+up

[wildwww2]

23. And the Ohioans just voted in a pro war crime pol that Schmidt is.

The total lack of logic dumbfounds me.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Barkley]

110. OH. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

"If we do not deal with terrorists and others who constitute a threat to our national security, overseas, we will be fighting them here on our own soil.

In his speech on June 28, 2005 to the American people, President Bush outlined the accomplishments we have seen in Iraq and his vision for the completion of that work.

We are sewing the seeds of Democracy in a place where many said it could never exist and we know from our own history that this process takes time."

- Jean Schmidt
http://www.jeanschmidt.com/JeanOnTheIssuesgroup.htm

This is why I sent $20.00 to Paul Hackett's campaign

[wrlwnd]

25. Why did you use a fake headline? n/t

[Mari333]

27. check this out, the headline seems to have been changed by the MSM

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-08,GGLD:en&q=ohio+families+fed+up

and not by anyone at DU, but by the MSM

[hayu_lol]

31. Much of the blame for all this...

is the American media's total failure to bring the news showing the daily carnage to the public as the media did in Nam. When the public observes, on a daily basis, their sons and fathers...and now sisters and mothers getting blown away, the reality of this illegal war will finally hit home.

I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for those whose families have suffered such grevious losses. These people, our neighbors, have been lied to.

[Mr. Peanut]

74. Amen ...

hayu_lol for laying the blame at the feet of the media for not taking the pols to task for their blunders and lies. They'd rather hash and re-hash Rafael Palmeiro.

[PunkPop]

35. Amazing. The Magical Contorting Lapdog Media

performing right before our eyes.

[The Night Owl]

50. Wow! That is creepy.

[kath]

61. Yeppers, Karl Rove must have gotten on the phone to the newspapers and

said "Change that headline, or else!"

[The Night Owl]

67. Even worse... I doubt Rove has to call anyone to get headlines changed...

My guess is that owners of news agencies are so fearful of being branded as liberal that they lean on editors to soften the work of journalists and reporters.

Let's face it... Trained animals need little direction. The MSM sits and rolls over on its own at this point.

[Judi Lynn]

70. I've never used a fake headline. What would be the point? n/t

[wrlwnd]

102. It looks like it was changed....

that explains it then :hi:

[bushisanidiot]

32. Didn't ABC get the memo from AWOL? they're supposed to report on the Aruba

girl.. or michael jackson.. or the london bombings.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

58. They "deserve what they got?"

I find it hard to believe you're a Democrat. You don't sound like one.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ambrose]

36. Ohio: Bush 51%, Kerry 49%. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Correction: Diebold/Bush 51% - Kerry 49%.

[wrlwnd]

104. And that's relevant because?

:shrug:

[xxqqqzme]

51. '...Donald Morgan, 21,

of Parma Heights, another Cleveland suburb,...is planning to re-enlist. He had yet to serve in Iraq but said going was "not a problem."

"All Marines are brothers," he said,... "I only took a moment to reflect on it. We all have a job to do." ...'

That's some mighty powerful kool-aid they be servin' in Ohio.

[recovering democrat]

56. One family's perspective

Reading many of these posts, I see and understand the conflicting opinions about today's military service. This is only one family's perspective.

We have a son in the military. We are Democrats, our family voted for Kerry and we have HUGE problems with Bush. Most recently, these Marines were killed on the day Bush started his most recent lengthy vacation and had the nerve to comment on this "sad event" while he avoids any responsibility for what has already happened or staying on the job to try to keep it from happening again! They were in an unprotected vehicle like too many others in Iraq.

What would I do if I had to face the grief of these families? Ask yourself that question. My answer is: I do not know. I do not want to ever know. I know I would still blame George Bush as the lying chickenhawk SOB that he is, no doubt about that. BUT, these soldiers believe they serve and protect this country and each other and perform an honorable job, and many of them I am sure share my opinion of George Bush. Don't expect the grieving parents of these Marines to do anything that changes how they feel about their children. Mostly, that is what we are hearing from them. They have that right.

[EST]

72. Although the immediate loss and grief has ghosted past

most of us this last week and the most poignant sorrow has visited that unfortunate few, the rest of us, our millions, are grieving mightily.
We are angry, horrified, enormously saddened, and not so quietly seething. Emotions are very near the surface and we are each likely to say something we may regret later. The sordid combination of incompetent, immature leadership and a difficult to stop enemy who might, in our imaginations, pop up anywhere has most of the country jumpy. I suppose the most powerful and useful thing we can do is try to present a calm, unified front and continue to point out the criminal miscalculations of a leadership that tries to lead by some sort of faith, rather than intelligence, wisdom and compassion. Firmness and muscle flexing will show up as needed.

[The_Casual_Observer]

90. "You invade with the Army you have, not the one you want"

So there, Rumsfeld didn't want you anyway.

[BiggJawn]

59. They got what they voted for.

Yeah, I know, 49% of them got fucked, just like the 49% of the rest of us in this country.

[goforit]

75. OK Ohio families...when are ya gonna kick those Repugs out of D.C.?

[Berry Cool]

79. I cannot believe some of the insensitive ignorant crap I'm reading here.

Some of you need to read this:

http://www.cleveland.com/schultz/index.ssf?/base/living/112314795736070.xml&coll=2

Perhaps it will disavow some of you smugfaced folks of your opinion that all of us in Ohio are just a bunch of cornpone idiots who put Bush over the top.

Or that even all the soldiers in Iraq come from "military families" who back the war. Plenty of them don't. Plenty of them are the children of parents who didn't want them to go, thought it was a bad idea, thought the war was wrong...but their kids were adults and they could not stop them.

This just in: 53% of Ohioans in an APRIL poll disappoved of Bush's Iraq policy. APRIL. This didn't just happen.

Again, I point out: by implying that all the families who lost these soldiers are Bush voters, you are not only showing great insensitivity to people's loss, but assuming way too much a) about how these people voted (especially given the part of the state some of them are from) and b) whether or not the vote in Ohio was even legitimate.

Sure, you will find quotes from families who think their kids were fighting for American freedom...and you will find just as many who feel their child's death was a horrible and unnecessary thing.

People who stereotype all the residents of a state should be ashamed of themselves. This is no better than that angry garbage that came out right after the election about how all the blue states should segregate and leave the "rest" of us with nothing but our cows and chickens.

[Fluffdaddy]

Thank you. Shocking what some people here think of our troops and families

[BikeWriter]

82. No shit. I haven't seen such stupidity since VietNam.

Thank goodness it is limited to a few buttheads.

[Fluffdaddy]

81. Thank you. Shocking what some people here think of our troops and families

[maxrandb]

96. So We're Just Supposed to Ignore that Ohio

has become the "People's Republic of Repuklistan"? We're supposed to ignore the fact that not one single Democrat holds any state-wide office? We're supposed to ignore the fact that "mega-churches", (you know, the ones that worship at the Republican Altar) have cropped up all over Ohio to help ensure continued Republican dominance? We're supposed to ignore the fact that Republicans (who I believe supported the pResident "lock, stock, and barrel") hold a 70-30 advantage in the state legislature? We're supposed to ignore the fact that the Ohio Republican Party is immersed in scandals and thievery so deep it will take 2-3 generations of our children (and BILLIONS of their dollars) to fix this state and put it right? We're supposed to ignore that Ohio was one of the "battleground" states that felt it necessary to put an "anti-gay" referendum on the ballot (conveniently the same ballot that the national election was on), so that they could appeal to people's prejudice and fear? We're supposed to ignore the fact that an Iraqi War Veteran is labled as a "tax and spend liberal, hiding behind a military uniform", and that is all it takes to elect a "rubber stamping, ethically challenged Bushbot" to the United States Congress?

I don't know when "calling a spade, a spade" became so terrible. I'm a Buckeye, and an active duty military member, and I am DISGUSTED BY WHAT MY ONCE GREAT STATE HAS BECOME!!!

I think pointing out what it is that the voters of Ohio need to do if they are really "FED-UP!", is perfectly fine.

I grieve for Ohioan's, I AM AN OHIOAN!!! and all I'm asking is:

- WHAT ARE OHIOANS PREPARED TO DO TO STOP THE CARNAGE??
- WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STAND UP TO THE REPUBLICAN MASTERS AND TELL THEM "WE'RE MAD AS HELL AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE???"

and I don't think it is crass, or disgusting, or demeaning, or un-patriotic, to point out to people that

- If they supported this pResident, and this Republican Congress, and this Republican State Legislature, and this compassionate conservative stacking of our Judiciary...then don't come crying when your sons and daughters come home in a box.

What the Hell else did you expect?

<RANT OFF>

[niallmac]

103. EFing Great Rant Friend!

[kick_them_hard]

106. Well change the word Ohio for the word America

and what youve got is a failure to communicate all over the map, not just Ohio. Stop blaming Ohio Democrats. If we are going to fix this problem, we need strong leadership. Someone like Hackett. Someone who knows how to talk the talk and walk the walk.

[Barkley]

109. OH. Yeah!

maxrandb you're on the money. OH. lost so many good jobs between 2001 and 2004 I thought for sure the state would go to Kerry.

I grew up in Cincinnati but now live in L.A. I spend the summers in Cincinnati with my parents teaching economics at a local college.

Maybe its me, but I don't remember growing up in the 60s and 70s the state and the city being so very conservative.

[AlCzervik]

80. I saw Rosemary and her husband on Hardball, they were well spoken

and intelligent people.

[Pirate Smile]

83. Ohio Families Reel After 9 Killed in Iraq

Ohio Families Reel After 9 Killed in Iraq

By DAN SEWELL
The Associated Press
Thursday, August 4, 2005; 10:35 PM

EVENDALE, Ohio -- John Dyer went home and prayed after hearing on the radio that Marines from his 19-year-old son's battalion had been killed in Iraq. Then the doorbell rang.

-snip-
Pat Kreuter, mother of Cpl. David K. Kreuter, 26, waited six hours Wednesday without hearing a thing. She drove to her daughter-in-law's house in Cincinnati about 5:30 p.m. and found a Marine inside.

"I knew immediately that David was dead," Pat Kreuter said in her nearby Miami Township home. "It's your worst reality. Your nightmare come true."

David Kreuter's wife, Chrystina, gave birth in June to their son, Christian.

"It bothers me a great deal that he will never be able to hold his son," Pat Kreuter said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/04/AR2005080400231.html?nav=hcmodule

Very sad article.

[NuttyFluffers]

84. *sigh* Rest In Peace, Soldiers...

It is now our, the civilians' turn to bear the cross and bring justice and accountability to this government. In memory of your sacrifice we will -- even if some are not ready. No more needless deaths for lies and theft.

[freedomfries]

97. KICK

[tuckessee]

98. The war was great

when the "Hometown Heroes" were thugging & killing Iraqis with relative impunity but when the Iraqis bite back the Americans start whining. How typical!

[Algorem]

111. Family considers Marine son's death to be 'senseless slaughter'

http://www.woio.com/Global/story.asp?S=3680188&nav=0rd1cx0n

CLEVELAND - ...

19 Action News reporter Wendy Gillette spoke to Schroeder's parents, who believe our troops went to Iraq under false pretenses...

"This is a Republican war. It's a Bush administration war, so the president, the secretary of state, the secretary of defense, all the people behind it are responsible for this," he said...

Now that he's gone, his mother said his death must make a difference.

"What we are doing there is not working, and if we get out, it would stop the senseless slaughter of our kids," Palmer said. "Bring them home."

[Algorem]

112. Cleveland TV station's compilation page of stories

http://www.wkyc.com/news/special/iraq/

Father of slain Marine visits Brook Park center, questions war


"...Then, there is the father of Schroeder. He isn't shy about saying the cost of the war has been too high for him.


"Americans have been silent too long," he said. "And I'm asking all Americans to really question where we are today." "

[Algorem]

113. parents of dead Marines + Dennis Kucinich on ABC's This Week Sunday

Guest Lineup for the Sunday TV News Shows

By The Associated Press

August 5, 2005, 6:12 PM EDT


Guest lineup for the Sunday TV news shows:

ABC's "This Week" -- Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio; Ohio residents Jim Boskovitch and Rosemary Palmer, parents of Marines who were killed in Iraq;


http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/wire/sns-ap-news-shows,0,7073768.story?coll=sns-ap-tv-headlines



BROOK PARK MARINES
Nation joins Ohio in mourning loss of slain reservists; community service set for Monday

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050805/NEWS28/508050469/0/NEWS10

BROOK PARK, Ohio-...

"The biggest message I've heard is, 'We want them to come home. This has to end,'" Mayor Elliott said.

"They shouldn't be there. President Bush should pull them out and declare the war over," said Gretchen Fullard of West Park, Ohio, who stopped to drop off flowers while lugging her sleeping 17-month-old daughter on her shoulder.

"It's too many. We've lost too many kids," said Mike Liegl of Cleveland as he wiped away tears. "The hardest number for me was when the total there went over 1,000 . It just becomes numbing."

A couple of miles from the Marine Corps center, in the basement of American Legion Post 610, Paul Joyce, a Korean War vet, sipped a beer and shook his head...

http://toimages.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=TO&Date=20050805&Category=NEWS28&ArtNo=508050469&Ref=H7&MaxW=240

[norml]

114. Mass casualties push war sentiments back to forefront

Posted on Sat, Aug. 06, 2005

Mass casualties push war sentiments back to forefront

JOE MILICIA

Associated Press


BROOK PARK, Ohio - Casimiro Zayas stood unflinchingly, his right hand held to his brow saluting Ohio's fallen Marines as the national anthem was sung at a prayer vigil.

His firm posture reflects his stance on the war in Iraq, which has grown only more resolute as the nation's casualties mount.

"In the beginning, I was totally against it," said Zayas, whose son is in the Army in Iraq. "But now that we're there, we're making a difference and we should stick it out. We've lost too many lives."

The loss of 16 Marine reservists from Ohio has pushed the more than 2-year-old war back into the forefront of daily life back home. Many people are shedding tears, but they're also discussing the war on radio talk shows and Internet message boards and at memorials for the Marines.

One caller to public radio station WCPN-AM on Friday said the Bush administration misled the public and provoked a war. The next caller said that Saddam Hussein, his sons and "Chemical Ali" were themselves weapons of mass destruction and that ending their rule was enough reason to go to war.


snip


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/12320800.htm