Two War Protesters Injured During March (subdued with taser and dog bite)

[sabra]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-protest-arrests,0,1840218.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

Two War Protesters Injured During March

By Associated Press

PITTSBURGH -- Two women protesting the war in Iraq were taken to a hospital Saturday after police broke up an unauthorized march involving about five dozen people on a busy one-way street near an Army recruiting station.

David Meieran, who helped organize the protest, accused police of "inappropriate and excessive force."

Sgt. Clint Winkler, a supervisor on duty, told The Associated Press that one woman who would not leave was subdued with a Taser. He also confirmed that a police dog bit another woman on the leg when she refused police orders to disperse.

...

"They were told to disperse, peacefully disperse, and failed to do so, so we started down the sidewalk -- officers in front, K-9's behind us, and started pushing the crowd down the sidewalk," Winkler said. He said the march broke up after the arrests.

[John Q. Citizen]

1. So much for the right to assemble.....

[John Q. Citizen]

18. the Rainbow Family of Love and Light (gatherings) have been

fighting this battle for the last 20 years.

They gather every year at a different spot on Public Lands (usually Forest Service Land) and they refuse to apply or sign a permit application, based on the first amendment right to free assembaly.

They also claim they have no leadership, so there is no one who is authorized to sigh a permit. The Rainbow Family makes all decisions by consenses.

So far they've more or less gotten away with there constitutional rights. The fact that they often get turn outs in the 15 to 20 thousand range doesn't hurt, because once it get rolling it's pretty hard to stop.

They argued a case before the supreme court about there right to assemble and the right to freedom of religion to pray for peace and harmony.

The peace movement needs to be aware of those who have gone before to not have to re-invent the wheel so to speak.

Google "Rainbow family" and you can find and read about there case and how they pull this off.

[me b zola]

30. Good info.

Do you know what happened in the SC?

[John Q. Citizen]

62. I'm not sure of this, but i think they lost. However, they still have

the gatherings annually and they still do so without a permit, or anyone authorized to sigh a permit.

Every year the USFS says they can't but they do.

Here's link to more information on them as well as their various court cases. Check it out, it's facinating what a bunch of flower children have been able to pull off for the last 33 years in a row.

http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow.html

[Why Syzygy]

118. get away with their constitutional rights

now there's an oxymoron. The Constitution GUARANTEES Rights.

Thanks for the info.

[jp4peace]

132. Great when is the next Rainbow Family Event this week

Tell us where to go and when this week

[joeunderdog]

2. Shoulda killed 'em.

Damn anti-war people. This "peace and love" shit's gotta stop.

...They'll probably be charged with Terrorism.

[jbnow]

37. You are so right. No room

for this love and peace crap here. I thought we were a Christian nation. What do those antiwar people think Jesus would have to say about spreading that crazy peace idea around. It must be stopped. The next thing you know they might start a love thy neighbor rebellion.

[Why Syzygy]

119. yeah blasphemy

what will they think of next?

Oh wait. Didn't that guy get crucified?

[AnneD]

149. All we need....

is a military compound to haul them to. I mean we have the dogs, trash bags, electricty, the Bill of Rights has been gutted...Pittsburg might go down as the new Abu Grahib.

[benburch]

3. Kent State...

It is only a matter of time.

I expect the first deaths will come in the September protests in DC.

[KyndCulture]

5. Ben, ya know I tend to agree....

it is only a matter of time.... I hate to even voice that opinion. But I'm scared every time I go to protest and read about one... all the powers willing it will NOT be at Camp Casey.

[meganmonkey]

10. I just had this conversation today

while listening to Crosby stills & Nash...

I was saying to my SO that I don't think it will be at DC - from my experience the cops there are just doing their jobs, and unless there is some hardcore disobedience they just keep an eye on things but keep their distance. I do feel tension building though, I just think it will break somewhere else - somewhere that the cops aren't as sympathetic. Somewhere like Ohio...

:scared:

[EST]

39. Not to pile on, but

the cops in charge at the protest of the criminal thugs' RNC last fall in NY were anything but simply trying to maintain order and keep the peace. They were active participants in the anti-decency, honor and human rights controversy. Numerous pitcures, recordings, anecdotes and even televised live coverage showed them clearly on the side of the criminal conspiracy. They were thugs, jackbooted, even. I saw it!

[Earth_First]

52. That was in NYC...

[hlthe2b]

20. Been listening to Ohio quite often lately.... I'm fearful, too...

I used to have to see the photos of the girl frantically leaning over the downed male student to cry. Now, all, I have to do is think about it...

[Imagevision]

78. Nazi tactics!!

[Tigress DEM]

107. Oh, yeah, on my list... remember bullet proof vest and grounding wire.

[Why Syzygy]

120. Can you give

more info about a grounding wire?

[phillinweird247]

134. Grounding wire?

to stop a taiser?. more info Please.

[Skip Intro]

4. surely someone had the foresight to take a camera

protesters need cameras

on eidt: I read this on the same night as I read the thread on how Hitler treated dissidents in Nazi Germany.

A juxtaposition that has me shaking my head, once again.

[wli]

6. I've been saying that for a long time.

Where is the thing about how Hitler treated dissidents?

[Skip Intro]

9. HItler and dissidents link - "There is Such a Thing as 'Too Late'"

posted by Q

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2021407


"...Ignore. That’s what the vast majority of Germans did in the 1930s as Hitler curtailed civil liberties and launched aggressive wars. I was born in August 1939, a week before Hitler sent German tanks into Poland to start World War II. I have studied that crucial time in some detail. And during the five years I served in Germany I had occasion to ask all manner of people how it could possibly be that, highly educated and cultured as they were, the Germans for the most part could simply ignore. Why was it that the institutional churches, Catholic and Evangelical Lutheran, could not find their voice? Why was it that so few spoke out? A few did...and they provide good example for us today. Lutheran Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke out, plotted against Hitler, and was executed. Also executed was a more obscure but equally courageous professor from the University of Berlin, Albrecht Haushofer.

[Why Syzygy]

122. They were distracted

by trying to find bread to eat. Sound familiar?

[wli]

7. Where are the protests against the Gestapo tactics?

There should be boundless outrage against peaceful demonstrators being abused this way.

[Conservativesux]

34. You dont stop the Gestapo with protests.......

[wli]

38. if not, then what? n/t

[Conservativesux]

45. I am sure you are smart enough to answer that question for yourself.

[hootinholler]

68. wli ispretty smart but I'm not...

Please lay it out for me like I'm 5 years old.

-Hoot

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hootinholler]

81. Perhaps it's my admirration for Gandhi that clouds the message for me.

[Conservativesux]

96. And I'd be pretty dumb to do that for you.. Have a nice day!

[wli]

95. understood, though I don't like the answer

[eowyn_of_rohan]

63. Seems hopeless with this kind of thing going on, BUT

In the 60s as more and more people joined in protests, police began to use more and more violence, with tear gas, billy clubs, etc., then with the shootings at Kent State, public outrage over police tactics and loss of civil liberties spread like wildfire. When pressure started coming not just from hippies but from "regular people" , things began to change. Let's hope history repeats itself.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

66. I was just thinking of the Vietnam War protests

but of course they were preceded by the civil rights protests of the southern states where there were hideous examples of police brutality on a regular basis

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Selma and Birmingham Alabama,

But that was then.

[Supersedeas]

147. where is your permit, boooooy? You don't have an official permit to stand

there, missy.

[Paranoid Pessimist]

11. What was it Neil Young said, "Gotta get down to it, Soldiers are...

This just in. It's only one of several such stories I've read online in the last day or two. I hope someone is compiling a list, an online archiv, of all such incidents.

Two War Protesters Injured During March

The Associated Press
Sunday, August 21, 2005; 12:02 AM

PITTSBURGH -- Two women protesting the war in Iraq were taken to a hospital Saturday after police broke up an unauthorized march involving about five dozen people on a busy one-way street near an Army recruiting station.

David Meieran, who helped organize the protest, accused police of "inappropriate and excessive force."


Sgt. Clint Winkler, a supervisor on duty, told The Associated Press that one woman who would not leave was subdued with a Taser. He also confirmed that a police dog bit another woman on the leg when she refused police orders to disperse.

Both women and a man involved in the march were arrested, Winkler said.

"They were told to disperse, peacefully disperse, and failed to do so, so we started down the sidewalk _ officers in front, K-9's behind us, and started pushing the crowd down the sidewalk," Winkler said. He said the march broke up after the arrests.

The recruiting station was not open at the time.

[DeepModem Mom]

12. Hey, Paranoid -- you've posted an important story...

but the moderators will eventually lock it if you don't use the story headline as your subject line, in accordance with Latest Breaking News rules. Alternatively, you could repost the article with your subject line, which is a good one, in the General Discussion forum.

Sorry -- just trying to keep your post open for discussion.

:)

[Up2Late]

26. I don't think that rule applies here, PP just posted the same story

within the thread, which is correct (has the correct headline), if anything, PP might need to edit the amount of the story posted (4 paragraphs), but that's easy to fix, this story is only 6 sentiences.

Take out the unnecessary double spaces between sentience 1 & 2, between 3 & 4, and between 5 & 6, and you have it down to only 3 paragraphs.

easy.

Unless this was a combined thread, if so, never mind.

[DeepModem Mom]

57. It was combined just after I posted, Up. Didn't realize...

it was a dupe.
:)

[Whoa_Nelly]

13. Per DU rules: You need to change the subject line on your post ASAP

Or it will get locked by the mods.

Change the subject line to read the same as the actual headline:
Two War Protesters Injured During March


Welcome to DU, Paranoid Pessimist :hi:

[Bryan Buchan]

14. I have yet to look into this but

what exactly are our right here, what I was taught in college is you have the right to peaceful assembly and protest, protected by the first amendment. When I was working on the Kucinich Camp. I was told (for the first time in my life) to move to the "free speech" area...I know for large marches authorization is required for large cities, which would include Pittsburg....but what the hell are our rights granted by the constitution????

Makes me wonder if we are going to see a Tiananmen Square inncident in the US before I leave this wonderful world....

Bryan

[libnnc]

24. That's a very good question

Are we not guaranteed the right to peaceably assemble in small groups in public? What are our rights in regards to protests?

[NNN0LHI]

15. kick

[pinniped]

16. I'm sure if it were an authorized march it wouldn't have happened.

--police broke up an unauthorized march--

:eyes:

[don954]

17. i hate to think what the "founding fathers" would say about

requiring a permit for exercising your free speech..

[corporatemedia]

19. Exclusives Photos + LINK TO VIDEOS OF PGH, PA POLICE VIOLENCE...

http://santorumcybergate.blogspot.com/

[Up2Late]

21. Someone needs to file assault charges against the bald cop with the Tasor!

That was a completely unnecessary uses of force.

He tasored her when she was already on the ground and in control of the other officer!:mad:

That guy NEEDS to be FIRED!

[Conservativesux]

33. No charges will be filed, the officer will be found innocent of any

crimes, ect. ad nauseum...

Fired isnt good enough. He needs jail time for that act.

[Judi Lynn]

23. I've got to post this snippet from your link, corporatemedia......

During the rally at the station, a Fox News cameraman who was aggressively filming demonstrators' faces was told to leave and started a minor confrontation with protestors. He returned with police officers, claiming that either he was punched or that his camera was broken (although he continued to use his camera the rest of the day). Witnesses confirm that neither of these things happened. On this pretense, police began chasing any masked protestors they could find, arresting several and firing weapons at the crowd. Several people have confirmed that they were hit with tasers and chemical weapons.

Later, police dogs were used to chase away protestors on the sidewalk, and one woman was bitten from behind by a police dog. Some time later, after telling police she wanted to file a complaint, she was arrested and placed in a police van.
(snip/)

http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn't it remarkable that the Fox cameraman took time from his politically slanted filming to involve the cops in rough play by lying about the protestors to them?

Unforgiveable, and he got away with it. It's what you'd expect from those people. (Remember the Fox reporter who stole artifacts from the museum in Baghdad during _Bush's invasion.)

[Junkdrawer]

46. Self delete - posted wrong spot...

[hippywife]

65. OMG!

That totally made me cry! These policemen are total animals.

[NYC]

22. I thought tasers were to control a person who was a threat.

Isn't that what they keep saying?

[Up2Late]

25. That's how they are supposed to be used, this was a Criminal use

Do you think the video at the Pittsburgh Indimedia is from the Fox Cameraman?

I think it was an bystander witness.

[NYC]

28. I keep hearing how wonderful tasers are because

they save the "victim" being shot with a gun. Again the "subdue a threat" excuse. So, if protestors don't move when told, the basic plan is to shoot them with a gun, but lucky us, the police will use tasers instead.

I think they are running out of justifications for taser use.

[saigon68]

27. tasers are used to punish those the police think of as Untermenschen

Untermenschen look it up

http://www.quivis.com/mideast02.html

[NYC]

29. I don't need to look it up, and that's exactly how

they are being used. Always with the excuse of "subduing a threat". What threat?

[saigon68]

36. my comment wasn't directed at you

It was for the rest of the board who love our police and support their "EVERY MOVE"--- no matter how ridiculous.

[NYC]

104. Maybe it's the difference of living in a small town

instead of a big city. Maybe the police in small towns are less hostile?

I once read a book about a police station in a small town, Deliberate Indifference. The prisoner died. East Texas. Non-fiction.

[screembloodymurder]

56. It's electric shock therapy.

It's become police punishment for the dissident.

[SouthernDem2004]

42. Not a threat but resisitive.

[NYC]

105. So if a person says he won't get in the police car,

the police can taser him? That is hardly a non-lethal substitute for a gun. I don't think they shot people who refused to get in cars.

(I realize they kill people from time to time. We have plenty of instances in NYC, but it is not policy to shoot people for refusing such an order.)

[SouthernDem2004]

116. Actually it can be used in that instance...

Tasers are used on resistive subjects. A Officer risks injury by forcibly putting someone in a vehicle.

I do not carry a Taser myself. It is not uncommon for resistive prisoners to refuse to get into a vehicle. The results are not pretty and rather painful to the subject.

[NYC]

143. Then tasers are not being used as a substitute for a gun.

That is what I most frequently hear.

[magellan]

31. I just showed the video of the woman being tasered to my husband

He's British. His reaction? A very quiet and shocked, "We're living in a police state, aren't we."

This from a middle-aged man who is NOT a political activist here or in the UK, votes across party lines (as many Brits do), and spent 27 years in the military.

I relate this because I think it's important to convey what the NATURAL HUMAN RESPONSE to this sort of police abuse is. This isn't about politics; this is just one more example of how certain members of law enforcement are OUT OF CONTROL.

[Conservativesux]

32. Your husband is right on the money but no one wants to believe that we

in the US are indeed living in a police state in progress, and soon people will have to see what is staring them right in the face.

It will only be a matter of time until violence breaks out at that point, if American history hold true, sad to say.

[EST]

40. You are, unfortunately, spot on.

As much as I hate to acknowledge it, there will probably have to be, and there will be, several nasty cases of police brutality and, no doubt, murder of protesters, to get a more rapid reawakening of the hypnotized sheeple.

Hopefully. the growl of the awakening will get the attention that this, as yet, unacknowleged war on humanity.

[rodeodance]

35. taser--a new toy --a dangerous new toy!!

[Surya Gayatri]

43. Your husband is so right--and tasers can and do kill...

I fear, as do many others here, that another 'Kent State' isn't far off. The illegitimate neo-con cabal has everything to lose if their 'mandate' disappears, and they will not cede power without a deadly struggle. They will fight first through their corporate-controlled media, but when that stonewall begins to crumble (as is only beginning to happen), the fight will go the streets. There will be martyrs...

[Why Syzygy]

123. Hasn't Florida been

under martial law since 2000? Police state indeed. A trial balloon.

[spinbaby]

41. This was the first thing I saw this morning

Flipped on the local news and there were protesters getting tasered, a German shepherd set on a crowd, a child who'd been hit by tear gas. The video was just shocking but Channel 4 treated it like a minor story and never repeated it.

[SouthernDem2004]

44. Sorry but you can not do anything you want anywhere you want.

You can not block a busy street. You can not march without a permit. You can not obstruct a sidewalk. You can not obstruct a business. You can not resist arrest. You can not fail to comply to the lawful order of a Police Officer.

You may not agree with the above but they are reality.

[Gay Green]

48. So do a singlefile round-the-block march, one block perimeter long.

Even without a permit, the tasering, the biting and the teargassing were totally unjustified. :mad:

[SouthernDem2004]

50. Never said that. Each incident would have to be considered.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

64. We have a Constitutional right to peacefully assemble

on public property. I hear what you are saying about blocking a piublic street, but is an Army recruiter office public property? I am not sure, but I know a sidewalk is, and that guy who was merely sitting on a curb of a sidewalk was not doing ANYTHING that I could see that gave the cops justification to force him to leave. Am I missing something here?

[SouthernDem2004]

67. Actually...

You have the right to assemble but there are restrictions.

You can not obstruct a sidewalk in most jurisdictions. You can not hindering or impeding the flow of traffic. It also could be considered disorderly conduct by obstructing a business.

In my jurisdiction I would have charged the person on the sidewalk with Resisting, Failure to Comply, and one or two Disorderly charges.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

73. Sounds like BS to me

The guy was harming Nobody, and he was not in the center of the sidewalk so as to impede any flow.

[SouthernDem2004]

115. Hey, All I am saying is what the law is... /nt

[Why Syzygy]

124. And since you're so handy

giving out the indictments, that means you're the law? Please clarify your position.

[SouthernDem2004]

129. Odd I have done no such thing.

I merely stated which laws were violated. The protesters were arrested for breaking laws. I fail to see how you do not understand this. The fact they were arrested should be proof enough. The fact that permits are required for marches and protest should be fact enough.

Lol, never said I was the law. Funny that some DUers get hostile when they hear something they do not like. You may not like the fact the protesters were arrested. You may want the arrest to be Unconstitutional or illegal. That does not make it so. Attack the messenger if it makes you feel better. Live in bliss if you choose not to listen to the message.

If you wish to go on believing that the Constitution was violated and the Police's actions were illegal then have at it. Far be it for anyone to disagree with you and bring up facts. If you wish to remain blind as to how the law currently works then that is your choice also.

Peace

[High Plains]

148. "The fact that they were arrested should be proof enough."

Maybe in your universe. How about an actual conviction?

[LisaL]

71. A 68 year old woman was actually bitten by a police dog.

Is that an acceptable procedure?
:eyes:

[SouthernDem2004]

112. Nope.

[jp4peace]

133. How is she doing now? Has anyone taken her picture yet?

Who is she. This women is a great America Hero and I want to know her name.

This women is someone worth standing up for, just as we are standing of for our Brave American Men and Women in Iraq.

Please tell us more.

Thank you for sharing.

[durutti]

94. True, BUT...

1. The tasered woman obviously was complying with police orders, as were others who were arrested.

2. Even if they were breaking the law, the cops' violent reaction wasn't at all justified. Dogs and tasers were completely unnecessary.

[SouthernDem2004]

113. Well...

We do not know what the women was doing. The video was cut so we do not see most of her arrest.

Also, If you disobey the law you get arrested. I watched the video of the guy sitting and they gave him every chance to move. He did not so they arrested him. Thats how it works.

No idea about the whole dog thing. The dog should not have been allowed to bite in most cases.

[Why Syzygy]

125. Re: post #47

"failure to disperse"? That's a CRIME? This pisses me off no END.

Meanwhile George W. Bush and his devil minions are bombing and fucking up the world BUT it's okay to give an innocent protester a dog bite and electro shock? Oh but. Then there's Gitmo and Ira*q. Anything goes.

What a bunch of suck. Power to the People.

[SouthernDem2004]

130. Were you outraged when these laws and opinions were being

pronounced??????

It was easy to see coming. Sad things is that Liberals are to a large part to blame.

[Why Syzygy]

140. Absolutely outraged ..

you betcha! I don't know about "Liberals" being held to blame. Our so-called "leaders" certainly are.

[Junkdrawer]

47. Post-Gazette (local paper) story with photo...

Pittsburgh police arrested three people yesterday morning during an anti-war protest outside an Army recruiting station in Oakland.

The protest involved about 30 to 50 people who marched from the Carnegie Museum of Natural History to the recruiting post near Forbes Avenue and Atwood Street.

Police Sgt. Clint Winkler said he ordered officers to move in on the protestors after one of the marchers grabbed a TV camera and damaged it and protesters then attacked an officer who tried to intervene.

As police dispersed the group, they used a Taser and pepper spray on one woman and charged her with disorderly conduct, failure to disperse and resisting arrest, Winkler said. Another woman, Carol Wiedmann, 68, of Sewickley, was taken to Presbyterian University Hospital after being bitten in the thigh by a police dog, and was to be charged with disorderly conduct and failure to disperse. A teenager also was cited and released.

...

Tom Boney, a visitor from Graham, N.C., who was helping enroll a child at Carnegie Mellon University, said he could not see any provocation by protestors, but said police did use the police dog to force the protesters to move. Boney also said he did not see Wiedmann do anything to provoke the dog into biting her.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05233/557445.stm

[mod mom]

49. This is why we need people to bring camcorders to events for documentation

We had an independent film producer do a work shop on filming events during our election reform teach-in.

[Junkdrawer]

51. Video here:

http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/19803.php

[theHandpuppet]

108. Yes, but that's only video of the attack by the cops

The whole protest should be recorded, including what was going on preceding the attack. That's the only way to press charges against the police dept. If the recording is only of the attack itself, it becomes a "he said, she said" argument with regards to what led up to the confrontation and that's one argument the cops will always win.

[GasolineBoycott]

137. Dog Bites Protester

That's why i keep pitbulls around, to deal with wayward police German Sheperds.

[Junkdrawer]

53. IndyNews Comment: "fox news" clarification

by a witness Saturday, Aug. 20, 2005 at 11:50 PM

For clarification -- the camerman in question was wearing a "fox news" shirt, but was not directly working for him. Other TV crews identified him as a freelancer for Fox. His camera was not a pro camera like the other crews (DVCAM), but was a consumer-grade miniDV camera.

He also was aggressive and hostile towards the protestors from the beginning. I think it is likely that he wanted to provoke protestors so that he could give the cops an excuse to react violently.


http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/19793_comment.php#19808

The recruitment station was shut down, so the protest was anticipated. Looks to me like a case of planned provocation prior to a police show of force.

[Junkdrawer]

76. I suspected Freepers, and sure enough...

The cameraman wasn't a professional cameraman - just a guy with a videocamera and a "Fox News" tshirt. So I went to freeperville and found these....

To: LM_Guy
Well, since we know their protest route, I guess pelting them with tomatoes and eggs will be all the easier?

6 posted on 08/18/2005 8:15:56 AM PDT by HamiltonJay

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1465898/posts

just thought freepers would like to know what the enemy is up to. (And remember -- the left supports the troops!)
Their site was down yesterday, but looks to be up at the moment. I've saved a screen shot of this page just in case.

1 posted on 08/18/2005 6:59:57 AM PDT by 68skylark

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1465856/posts

Now, I wonder if any of the cops happen to belong to FreeRepublic. :shrug:

[bribri16]

54. Tasers on peacefully gathered war protesters? Fascism at work! n/t

[crikkett]

80. Look what I stumbled across!

http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9125.html
snipped from
Self-Defense Forums: For A Fighting Chance > Practical Unarmed Combat > Police Defensive Tactics > Taser
(more good stuff there)
----------------------

10-13-2004, 08:33 AM
One thing about electricity and the human body. Your blood vessels will often serve as a "highway" for the current. It's the path of least resistance. You can see this especially in people that have been hit with high-voltage like powerlines and lightning strikes. The veins will often show through the skin where the current traveled. Your skin, like Ken says is a rather poor electrical conductor. The "wetter" tissues underneath work somewhat better as a conductor, mostly due to the blood suffusing the tissue and the resulting higher salinity. Tasers simply don't have enough current to affect any of the deeper structures in the body. Be they muscles or internal organs. It does hit and affect the peripheral muscles, but how much it will affect any given person is, as has been mentioned time and time again, is never certain. Physiological differences and probably to a greater extent psychological differences all contribute to making tasers and other electrical weapons unreliable at best, useless at worst. Don't bet your life on one.

The knife in your hand doesn't give a shit what the skels physiological differences are, when it "singers" in and out of his chest cavity. The bullet from your .45 is indifferent to the skels state of mind as it punches his heart out through his spine. Mr. Stick pretty much don't give a shit about the conductive qualities of the human body when it slams into the skels temple.
Use what works, discard the rest. Simple as that.
sames
--------------------
10-13-2004, 10:32 AM
it will run right down the wire, hit skin, and take that shortest and least resistant route to the other barb.

I heard once that skin is more electrically resistant than say blood or "wet" meat. So if you get the barbs into muscle they'll probably travel muscle and not skin.

Some friends and I took the biggest, baddest stun gun we could lay hands on quickly and soldered needle points onto the probes. We then proceded to jab said device into our thighs and push the button (and hold it for 30 seconds to let it really warm up). In the end we all agreed that getting poked with needles was worse than the actual zapping and that being sub-dermal didn't really add anything to the experience.

I've been pondering a good way to widen the probes to get a larger area of affect... however our current belief is that this will actually diminish the effect since there will just be more resistance (surface area) for the limited amps to push through.

Thoughts? ('course if I could lay hands on a LEO issue only Taser then all of these little tests could be put to rest :cool: )

-steve

[Junkdrawer]

55. Just checked the major local TV News websites...Nothing..

on the story. The local paper had it and the local NPR news has it.

Was it on the local news last night? :shrug:

[spinbaby]

58. Channel 4 had it on about 6:15 this morning

But then it never came up again that I saw. Had to cover the Steelers, you know. :grr:

[Junkdrawer]

59. Looking more and more to me like this was a message to the protesters...

as for the rest of us...move along, nothing to see here.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. ok that video was totally disturbing

:wtf:

We are in deep trouble in this country.

[go freedom]

61. ...after police broke up an unauthorized march...

...after police broke up an unauthorized march...

...the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. -- Ammendment I, United States Constitution.

Unauthorized my @ss! I've got their permit right here.

[SouthernDem2004]

69. There are restrictions...

We need a permit etc.

[go freedom]

72. Can you point out

those restrictions, in the Constitution, for me?

And could you also point out where the Constitution authorizes the government to place restrictions on rights?

I can't find it.

[SouthernDem2004]

74. The Constitution does not restrict alot of things that are currently

restricted. It is a framework. Unfortunately people can not go around doing whatever they want whenever they want.

Permits are required. Laws can not be broken. These are facts. These laws have been ruled Constitutional repeatedly. You may not like it but that does not change the fact that it is so.

[Diogenes2]

75. Who was doing "whatever they want"?

You seem to suggest some kind of wild, out-of-control activity was taking place, whereas these people were PEACEFULLY assembled. Your definition makes no distinction between chaotic, dangerous actions & actions that were a THREAT TO NO ONE.

[SouthernDem2004]

82. If they want to assemble they have to follow the laws. /nt

[libnnc]

85. they were following the laws

a media poser "played up to the ref" and claimed he was attacked. What are you not understanding about that incident? No one was doing anything outside the law -- except for the lying camera guy who started the whole ruckus.

[SouthernDem2004]

87. There was the lack of permit, obstructing a roadway, obstructing a

sidewalk, failure to comply with the lawful order and resisting arrest. What about those?

[libnnc]

83. exactly

these people were well within their rights and were PROVOKED by a freeptard in a FOX News shirt holding a mini video camera. I'm all about law and order but come on!

At least we know what to expect from now on -- freepers or undercover folks posing as either media or rabble rousers, trying to stir shit up so the cops and swoop in and do their thing.

I'm watching history unfold and it scares the hell outta me.

[SouthernDem2004]

89. They broke numerous laws. /nt

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

84. You are entitled to your opinion. I can only give you facts...

The fact is you can not assemble without permits in most cases. You must obey the laws. The government is not disobeying any laws by restricting protest nor is it violating the Constitution.

Advocating violence is uncalled for. I am done.

Peace

[libnnc]

86. who is advocating violence? wtf are talking about?

[SouthernDem2004]

88. Referring to the "hang them" comment. Please read before posting./nt

[libnnc]

90. whatever...just stay on the porch no one needs your voice anyway.n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

91. Lol, hit the little ignore button. Choose to silence those that may

say things you do not like.

Note: I never stated what my views on the protest were. I merely stated what the laws were. You can choose to ignore the actual laws and facts if you choose. You can shoot the messenger. <shrug> Live a blissful life if you wish.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

93. Lol another assumption.

Post something people do not agree with and your a freeper etc.

I merely stated the law. Never commented on the protest. You can choose to lead a blissgful life. That is your choice. The reality is you can not assemble anywhere you want any time you want to. Sorry but that is a fact. You may not like it but that does not change things.

Have a blissful day.

[Diogenes2]

97. Get real, man...

You know how this works! The police issue the order to disperse, then attack you before you can even move!

[SouthernDem2004]

99. Watch the video link. That is not what occurred. /nt

[go freedom]

98. OK

<i>You can choose to lead a blissgful life.</i>

OK

[sintax]

114. Laws are put in place by the powerful to control the people and

to modify behavior. Have you ever read "Perils of obedience"?

Just because it is the law, no matter how many times you say it, does not make it right.

Ignorance of what is just is no excuse for obeying the law.

Sounds like sheep being led to the slaughter is okay as long as it is codified in Latin by the Supreme Court.

[SouthernDem2004]

117. I merely stated what the current laws allow. People were under

the misconception that certain actions were Unconstitutional or illegal when they were not. People should know what the actual laws are. Seems like some DUers think their opinions are actually law. I merely give them information. They can use it or deny it.

[Why Syzygy]

127. The "government" is not breaking any laws?

#1 . the "government" is the PEOPLE! Not the bow ties.

#2 . The bow ties have and do and are breaking laws with every breath you take.

Okay?

[SouthernDem2004]

131. Sorry but that made no sense.

We are a nation of laws. The people pass these laws. The people interpret these laws.

I fail to see what laws you think are being broken. Can you give me the statute numbers please.

[Why Syzygy]

141. No

Your posts seem to be the only ones who purport to know statutes.

However. Illegal wars comes to mind immediately. What is that statute number?

Destroying the US economy and world ecosystem are on the list. Statute?

[SouthernDem2004]

146. Completely off topic.

I am done.

[Why Syzygy]

126. Amen brotha!

The Constitution has been abridged. Or is that hijacked.

Nevertheless. I stick with the original. Guarantee of Freedom.

I'll be damned before I change that state of mind.

[methinks2]

79. the burg police have never been known for their nice

behaviour. My husband was hospitalized my them (before I know him) many years ago.

[Conservativesux]

100. He talked back to the police, did he? Yeap, they dont like that too much

the cowards, with thier badges and thier guns, hiding behind the color of law.

[spuddonna]

150. Yeah, their idea of a 'warning' ...

is a 'light' blow to the head with a metal police flashlight. Happened to my brother at a U2 concert. He said he gave it a 6 out of 10, 10 being 'I think I'm dead now'...

[designforce]

101. Some photos here...

First Link: http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/19784.php

Second Link: http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050820155608986

Why is the cop pointing her weapon right at an unarmed protesters head?

[go freedom]

128. 'Cause she's praying...

for an excuse to bust a cap in his skull.

[Scout1071]

102. That video is unfucking believable. That cop should be fired immediately.

There was absolutely no need to take it there. I hope she sues the shit out of that police dept.

[Conservativesux]

111. Not just fired, jailed. It' out of control yokels like this that give cops

a bad rap.

Jail the creep !!!

[daleo]

103. A taser to subdue policy there, a shoot to kill policy in London

If someone hated us for our freedoms, he won't have to hate us much longer.

[Junkdrawer]

106. I talked with some of the protesters and just posted a report in GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4416370

[defiant1]

109. Wow....

That's messed up.

[Julius Civitatus]

110. Tasers are basically replacing handcuffs!!!

The main rationale for supporters of the use of Taser is that "is a great replacement for guns in situations of danger." Fine, I can buy that: using tasers instead of deadly force in situations that truly required the use of deadly force.

Unfortunately many cops have become "taser gun happy" and started replacing their batons for tasers. Now it feels liek they are even using the taser in situations that only require handcuffs!!!!

There are over 160 deaths realted to this nilly-willy use of tasers. These devices need to be strongly regulated ASAP!!!!

These pictures from Pittsburg are the FACE OF FASCISM! Face, people: this is what people get for peacefully exercising their right to free speech in Bush's America: one step short of the "Abu Grahib treatment."

I'm sick to my stomach.

:grr:

[Roland99]

121. WTF? "Unauthorized march"?!?!

[jp4peace]

135. This is not what the Peace Movement should look like

NO one should be wearing anything over there head.

Are you sure this is not the right wing, pretending to be the left?

This looks like a set up to me.

I would like to see this 68 year old woman who was bite by a dog.

I would not put it past the right wing to stage this whole thing.

[jp4peace]

136. Looks like the right wing pretending to be the left

this is how they won in texas, this is how they gain control in this country.

the right wing pretends to be the left to enrage the middle.

Prove me wrong.

show me the 68 year old woman.

why are they wearing something on their head.

that should never be needed.

peace loving people have nothing to hide.

[jp4peace]

145. Peace movement walks in the light of love for all to see

Any effective peace movement never needs to hide anything
it does not hide, it need not offend.

But rather it should be praised by all.

When we walk in Divine love and light AND PEACE we
honor those we wish to bring home

BRING THEM HOME NOW

[spuddonna]

152. Actually I went to school in Oakland...

I remember people chaining themselves to buildings, lots of protests and this was back in the late 80's... Oakland is a big university area, lot of college students peacefully and not so peacefully protesting almost always there...

I'm guessing that the masks may have been two-fold. One, to protect their id. Many of these people often work, live and protest in the same area, and are fearful of losing their jobs. Two, I've heard tell it helps when they launch the tear gas...

Now, am I verifying this story? No. But I can tell you from personal experience that I wouldn't be surprised if this group was peaceful, but did have masks/bandanas on their faces...

Edited because I forgot to say Welcome! :hi:

[RamboLiberal]

138. This story is gaining legs in Pittsburgh

WTAE did broadcast a more extensive video again last night (Sunday night). I think they realize there's a story here.

There was video from the cameraman that seemed to show at least his camera was smacked hard. Not clear if intentional or accidental since there seemed to be some jostling. He was filming a sign on the door of the recruiting office and what you see is his camera's view.

Some of the protestors in the video WTAE showed did seem to be fighting the police arrests. But the girl that was tasered was not. Wish WTAE would post their video - it's a bit more extensive than what was on the websites I saw yesterday.

Lynn Cullen talked about the video today on her show on WPTT 1360 AM Pittsburgh. Only one caller (wife of a cop) was on the cops side alone.

A protest organizer and someone at the protest called in. Both thought the cops were out of control.

Story in the local paper today.

City police used excessive force when they used stun guns and pepper spray to break up an anti-war demonstration in Oakland on Saturday, members of the protesting group charged yesterday.

"Right now we're demanding an investigation," said David Meieran, a member of the Pittsburgh Organizing Group, which protested outside an Army recruiting station Saturday morning. About 30 to 50 people marched from the Carnegie Museum of Natural History to the recruiting post near Forbes Avenue and Atwood Street.

<snip>

Police used a Taser, or stun gun, on two people and pepper spray on others, including a 4-year-old girl, and "toppled a man with multiple sclerosis in his motorized wheelchair," according to the group's statement.

Others were clubbed with retracting metal batons, and a 68-year-old grandmother was bitten in the thigh by a police dog, the statement said.

The group hopes to show a video of the police actions, perhaps as early as today.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05234/557881.stm

[dchill]

139. Oh...well...if it's unauthorized...

Taser them! Send in the dogs!

[RandiFan1290]

142. 3 different protests come to mind

1. Terry Schiavo protest at the front doors of a Hospice. Several death threats and a bomb threat. Daily arrests for trespassing. Treated with kid gloves by police. Permits?

2. Elian Gonzales protest. Several death threats and daily threats of violence. No arrests until the riots began but the police were still criticized by the media and politicians. Permits?

3. Miami vote recount protest. Trespassing and threats of violence. They were inside the building pounding on the doors and glass. No arrests. Permits?

It all depends which side you are on.

[neuvocat]

144. Someone correct me on the Gahndi quote...

but isn't it something like:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they beat you, then you win."

The real heroes of this age are protestors like this who are putting their personal safety on the line for the troops.

[Duer 157099]

151. Compare and contrast:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9005395/

"TEL AVIV, Israel — As the Alamo-like scenes of final resistance played out live on Israeli TV over the past week, many Israelis — as well as this reporter — felt like they were re-living history.

"I saw a surreal “split-screen.” On one side, images of about 150 settlers and protestors were holding their ground on the roof of the Kfar Darom synagogue, throwing oil, sand, eggs, acetone, and paint-filled light bulbs at unarmed Israeli SWAT teams, who, in turn, struggled to climb slippery ladders or dismount metal cages in full riot gear."

Funny, I also saw a split-screen, only it was comparing this to how our police treat us.