Iraq-tested soldiers in New Orleans with shoot to kill orders

[ECH1969]

A detachment of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops landed in anarchic New Orleans on Thursday, with the authorization to shoot and kill "hoodlums" Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said.

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," said Blanco.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well trained, experienced, battle tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets," Blanco said.

"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will," said Blanco.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=050902015113.5lgwn2uc.php

[nodehopper]

1. oh my god.

[tinymontgomery]

2. The Killing of our own starts

[Eloriel]

52. I am very, very afraid this is going to be a disaster -- LOOK

First, I think the looting and other disorderliness has been exaggerated. Some of the cable reporters have gone out of their way today to comment on and show how docile and mannerly and patient people were being.

Second, I think the reports of all this "violence" are primarily being echoed around -- that echo chamber effect, you know? Not all, certainly, but some. I've seen not all that much PROOF or validation, and I just get the feeling things aren't so bad as SOME people are making it out to be.

Now have a look at these links:

Looters are distributing food to hungry at Superdome
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4568012
Link: http://www.kget.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=D4B8AFA3-3564-4FF8-B91D-74F18D488C69

My Phone Call with my FEMA Friend. Some info I did not know. :(
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2052957&mesg_id=2052957
Link: http://www.bushsamerica.com/index.php/2005/09/01/my_phone_call_with_my_fema_friend

I heard a chilling message on NOLA Police radio tonight
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4568184
Link: http://205.252.89.181:8000/live

[Pachamama]

166. I'm betting that the Bush Administration & GOP Congress starts trying to

get the Posse Comitatus Act repealed within the next month....

I share the same concerns as you Eloriel....I think that there are very very chilling signals that there is more at play here than meets the eye...

Wanna wager anyone? I've been betting that the discarding of the pesky Posse Comitatus Act was on their list a long time ago....Now they will use Hurricane Katrina and the inability to respond (and ofcourse to all the "lawlessness") that they will try to argue that Military troops need to be given the ability to act on US soil for our "security"....

Of course, none of this would necessary if our NATIONAL GUARD was here to do its job instead of being in Iraq...but never fear, the Bush Neo-cons have been eyeballing this opportunity for awhile...and now they will go for it...

Mark my words and bookmark this thread....they want to get rid of that "pesky" Posse Comitatus Act...:eyes:

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

4. omg is she fucking crazy?

:scared:

[Chicago Democrat]

8. guess the killing beginS! Thanks Democratic Governor!

:puke:

[Courtesy Flush]

141. She's in over her head

She was the head of the tourism commission before she was governor.

In every press conference I've seen, she seems to be at a complete loss, and completely overwhelmed.

It's quite a feather in her cap that she became governor, but she had no idea that it might be a hard job.

[ECH1969]

46. As am I

[brokensymmetry]

5. Maybe one of the reasons for Iraq?

To generate battle-hardened troops used to urban warfare?

Surely not...

[Trevelyan]

31. It is also the reason for Gitmo, Ted Rall wrote that

THE STENCH OF DAUCHAU IS OVER GUANTANAMO BAY and that Dauchau started out as torture training and to harden young men enough to torture innocents but eventually became a death camp.

Thom Hartman asked George Galloway a month or so after his Oil For Food Scandal appearance where he spoke the truth to the only two members of that shameful charade showed up because they knew the evidence against Galloway was "fixed" - about the death chambers at Gitmo and Galloway sounding very discouraged said they get away with what they want.

A few weeks ago a link to a site with some earlier torture pictures showed a dramatic photo of a noose in the foreground with a trapdoor and several men against the wall in orange jumpsuits. Someone wrote that the sick Rumsfeld was only interested in the death chambers when he went to Iraq so I guess they are executing people not just beating them to death. Start reading up on the Resistance to the Nazis.

There is a website called Resistance.

http://www.breitbart.com/index.cgi?feed=reuters&cat=breaking

http://tinyurl.com/a45ng
~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com/

~~~Corbin interviews John Conner, author of The Resistance Manifesto, a book that tackles the personalities and the agendas of the New World Order. John exposes the Luciferian plot.~~~

http://www.rinf.com/

~~~In light of what occurred in Utah last week. People should be prepared to defend their right to peacefully assemble. Those planning to attend Burning Man this month should organize to defend the festival from this kind of attack~Fintan Dunne discusses the use of propaganda in the current terror campaign and its benefits toward G8 goals and the propagation of a military state in the UK and beyond. Also discusses controversial "CIA Internet Fakes" story.

Part One & Part Two
Police State III: Total Enslavement
Conspiracy: Source

The greatest evil that mankind has ever faced is among us: a scientifically crafted global dictatorship sworn to enslave every man, woman and child. The United States government, at all levels has fallen under the control of the desperately wicked New World Order clan. The events of Sept 11th mark the initiation of the final sick push of the illuminati to consolidate their one world order and transform earth into a prison planet.

The Age of Terror: In the Name of the State
Media: Source

The film reveals the extent of American backing of the Contras in Nicaragua and the notorious 'School of the Americas'. Another aspect of terrorism is illustrated by the terrible human tragedies resulting from Argentina's Dirty War of the late 70s and 80s. In concluding, the film briefly returns to the Middle East.

Fascism Comes to the US: The Utah Rave Video

This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had licensed security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in). Oh, I suppose I should mention that they arrested all the security guards for possession.

Fascism Comes to the US: The Utah Rave Video

This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had licensed security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in).

~http://www.rinf.com/news/aug-05/78.html

~~Underground Gateway~~~~
Illuminati Zoo PsyOps: Caged Humans Are 'Animals'
HENRY MAKOW
08/29/2005 12:46:29

The talk of the UK media Friday was eight young scantily clad humans frolicking in the bear cage at London Zoo in an exhibit labeled "Humans."

"Warning: Humans in their Natural Environment" read the sign at the entrance to the exhibit.

"Seeing people in a different environment, among other animals ... teaches members of the public that the human is just another primate," London Zoo spokeswoman Polly Wills said.

Don't be deceived. This is not a frivolous publicity stunt but the kind of psy-op we are going to see more of. Psychological warfare conquers the target population by changing its self-perception.
(more)

[brooklynite]

6. Why do I have the feeling that, once again...

we're going to "win the war and lose the peace"?

[StClone]

7. No solution only Bullets from Bush...have a hammer and all

the world looks like a nail to this so-called leader

[Mike Daniels]

117. Funny, it seems like the Democratic Gov has given the shoot to kill order

Why aren't you commenting on her?

[NNN0LHI]

9. This method didn't work in Iraq. It ain't going to work here either n/t

[info being]

97. Civil War

[mb7588a]

10. that ain't legit.

no other links like it on google news.

[NNN0LHI]

16. Shoot to kill, troops told - Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/shoot-to-kill-troops-told/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html

As thousands wait to be rescued or receive aid, authorities have issued a "shoot to kill" order in a bid to stem the mounting lawlessness in the hurricane-ravaged city of New Orleans.

Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said a detachment of 300 National Guard troops, who have served in Iraq, had been authorised to shoot to kill "hoodlums" in the hurricane-ravaged city of New Orleans.

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," Blanco said.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well-trained, experienced, battle-tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets," Blanco said.
"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded.

[K-W]

19. News Google "shoot to kill" EOM

[midnight armadillo]

102. I heard the quote on NPR this morning

Really. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

[Ian David]

11. I saw those guys in a documentary on The Sundance Channel

They've gotta be pissed about the way they've been treated by Bush.

They were green, scared, poorly disciplined and under-equipped when they went to Iraq.

[Mnemosyne]

63. But it sounds as if they are being

well equiped for NO Ian.

Posse comitatus is gone.

[VegasWolf]

12. Bush seems to have a single solution for all problems doesn't he?

[mike_c]

13. same as it ever was....

The rich and powerful kill the poor and dispossessed.

[thethinker]

14. NO needs buses not bullets

The Governor needs to close all schools in Louisiana for a week and get the damn school buses down to NO to get the people out.

No one is organizing this effort. They have 30,000 people in the Superdome to move to Houston and San Antonio. A school bus holds 50 people. They need buses NOW.

She has buses. She isn't using them right.

She needs to get food and water (and baby formula) airlifted to the Superdome and the people stranded on the roads. Two infants died today in the Superdome.

[raccoon]

101. A great idea. Why doesn't she do that??? nt

[me b zola]

159. She's not stopping the buses.

DHS appearently is calling the shots.

There were *dozens* of buses lined up two blocks away from the convention center mid-day today(friday). When the convoy of NG came into the city the arial video shots by a chopper showed the buses. The journalist doing the comentary talked about them being ready to take the survivors out of the city.

The survivors have been locked in the convention center & superdome for the night. They are not allowed to leave.

People are dying every hour.

This is beyond criminal.

[iconoclastic cat]

15. Aaron Brown just reapeated it on CNN, apparently

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/1/223911/5641

[BlueEyedSon]

47. Bad link?

[Radio_Lady]

78. Link isn't working, sorry.

[Mz Pip]

17. Flame me if you wish

but those who are raping and running around shooting at people don't get much sympathy from me.

Somehow control has to be established and yes, we do have to get food and water and medical supplies in. But those things and establishing orderare not mutually exclusive.

People are holed up on roofs and they are scared. We can complain about the National Guard being stuck in Iraq and justifiably so but lets give them some support when they try to bring some order and stability to NO.

I would wish the same protection for my family if we had a disaster of such proportions here.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[MeatLoafZero]

27. I'll take the heat with you, Mz Pip

Lots of people couldn't get out due to age, infirmity, or looking after people who were old/young and infirm.

BUT...if you are able to carry a television set out of Wal Mart, you are able-bodied enough to have gotten out. Or if you adamantly refused to leave, you are able-bodied enough to be part of the solution, rather than exacerbating the problem.

What are these morons doing shooting at the people who are trying to help them?! Turning over ambulances; carjacking bus drivers; robbing and raping?

Why would helicopter pilots try and get to the Dome if they have to take fire to do it? The loss of that 'copter wouldn't exactly help the relief/rescue efforts, you know.

You don't want help? Fine. But let the teams get to those that do. If you are an obstacle, prepare to be removed. They don't have time to fool with you. Be thankful that it will be by a relatively clean shot, and that they're not dropping daisy-cutters on your dumb arse.

[midnight armadillo]

103. Are you serious?

BUT...if you are able to carry a television set out of Wal Mart, you are
able-bodied enough to have gotten out. Or if you adamantly refused to
leave, you are able-bodied enough to be part of the solution, rather than
exacerbating the problem.


And what should they have done - with no car, no bus or rail service, should they have walked 30 miles out of the city to stand outside during the storm? Do you not understand that the great majority of the people who stayed are very poor and had no resources to fall back on?

[left hand man]

155. This morning on ABC Good morning America,

The Gov of La. said that people need to take the food and water they need to survive-- this was NOT considered looting(it would have to be discarded anyway).People taking advantage of the situation are easy to spot. If you are able bodied enough to loot, you COULD BE part of the solution if you wish to be .
My .02 worth

[Celebration]

108. drug addicts

With no fix. Need we say more?

[AverageJoe]

32. Not a flame

But I have to say that many of the "looters" are people desparately looking for food, water, and other basic necessitites. These people will likely be shot dead by National Guardsmen. That is horrific.

I'm not excusing people who are just stealing to be stealing, but there are many, many "looters" who are just trying to stay alive. Now we're going to shoot them. It's unthinkable.

[MeatLoafZero]

43. You're right, Joe.

I should have qualified that. I wouldn't use the word "looting" to describe someone just trying to stay alive - I'd say "surviving."

If you have a DVD player in your hands, though...


I'd like to think that these soldiers have the same definitions.

[frictionlessO]

115. Being able to tell the difference accurately is the problem I see...

DVD player or boxes of cookies. Jewelery box or crackers?

Ya know what Im saying.... I can't imagine what the crowds will do if they accidentally shoot and kill an innocent "surviving" looter. Then they just might have to kill a whole bunch of innocents because they get so pissed...

Definitely a tragically surreal call to make anyway you look at it.

[Frederik]

119. Killing people for looting DVD players

I don't give a fuck about people looting DVD players now. It absolutely doesn't matter. It's the least important of all the problems in New Orleans right now. Screw the DVD players. What matters is to get people out of there. This "shooting hoodlums" stuff is just insanity. What the hell is going on here?

[springhill]

135. You don't kill someone stealing a DVD player.........

or anything else without being physically threatened yourself. If the police are in no danger themselves, they do NOT kill people for this. New Orleans looks like a thirld world country right now, and it seems there are some people who want them to act like one also.

[frictionlessO]

156. are you talking about me???

I hope not... because you'd be so very very wrong.

[Canadian Socialist]

160. You are wrong

N.O. does not look like a "third world country". N.O. looks like a fucking DISASTER ZONE. I have been and lived in third world countries. They are paradises compared to what is happening in N.O. Now, tell yourself, what matters most? Your life? Your family? These people need clean water, food and supplies. So what if some low-lifes take some high end electronics? At least they are not shooting at anyone (with their arms being full). Good fucking christ. Get people out of that sewer that this city has become.

[frictionlessO]

157. It is the least of the problems...

I and just about 99.9 % have no idea whats going on...

Im sorry.

[raccoon]

100. I was thinking the same thing, if somebody's just looking for

food/water or something else to drink just to stay alive...they may be shot too.

THIS IS DISGUSTING.

Also, the businesses there will be reimbursed by insurance companies for their losses. A great deal of the merchandise, too, will be unusable after the flood and weeks, possibly months, of sitting around in a flooded area with no protection from the humidity at the least, and from the elements in general if the structure of the building itself is damaged.

edited for clarity

[Trevelyan]

36. Remember the Al Gore recount Rent-a-Rioter and the rioters that the MSM

said were people in favor of Gore turned out to be staffers for Republican Congresspersons. How many innocent Iraqis have they killed. Like Fallujah they are not letting in the press or the Canadians who were ready to go with humanitarian aid.

THEY DON'T WANT ANY WITNESSES, JUST LIKE FALLUJAH.

[progressivebydesign]

74. No. It's just incredibly dangerous and volitale.

Not everything is a conspiracy. They have to restore some order NOW. The police are leaving town because (and they have been quoted) they themselves have lost everything, and they are facing such violence on the street that it is not worth losing their life being there. It is not because they think that there is some violent plan.. it's because all hell has broken lose and they are giving up to save their own lives.

[Dhalgren]

137. Just last night on NBC a reporter said (paraphrase) that he and

his crew had been down in the bowls of NO all day, roaming around at will, without any threat to them at all. He said they just saw hundreds and hundreds of people in dire straits, in grave need of rescuing. When the reporter got back to the Super Dome, he saw all of these NG and ambulances just sitting around. He asked why they weren't going into NO and saving people. The answer was that it was too dangerous. He said he couldn't understand it, because his news crew had seen no danger to anyone, but the refugees for the hours that they were deep inside NO. Something isn't right here, somewhere - is it?

[barb162]

40. no flame here. Sociopaths shooting at rescue helicopters

should be dealt with VERY harshly.

[Bo]

130. I agree. Shoot those who are killing others

Just a bunch of stupid gang bangers

[recycledindi]

162. never happened

the pilots never reported that they were shot at - it;s all propaganda.

and what's happening in the dome is a test-run for what's coming for all of us because if anything happens like an economic collapse, we'll all be those poor black people (no offense to black people)

[progressivebydesign]

73. I'm also with you on that.

They are raping, and they are shooting, and they are terrorizing the hospitals to the point of interrupting rescue efforts of patients. Something has to be done. At this point, sadly, food and water and buses are not the answer to stopping the lawlessness. The crimes need to be dealt with, as well as the basic human supplies, and evactuations. You cannot do any of those without the other. The crimes that do not include just providing basics for survival are deepening the suffering for everyone there...

I can only hope that Gov. was talking tough, cuz she scared the shit out me!

[MisterP]

139. actually, the FAA said that no shots were fired at the evac copter

whose withdrawal was blamed on a shot fired

[Qibing Zero]

75. Of course those ones doing the worst don't get much sympathy.

But the guard is many days late. They come in now with shoot to kill orders, and you don't think they're going to be shooting looters of any kind? The white house spokesman earlier made it clear that there will be no tolerance for ANYONE looting, no matter the circumstance. He condemned them to wait for aid that wasn't coming. Now we see the weapon they're using to enforce that condemnation.

[Pacifist Patriot]

105. The challenge may be distinguishing between

truly criminal behavior and survival efforts. Sometimes it will be obvious and sometimes it won't.

[CanSocDem]

138. It's hard enough, on a normal day...

...to distinguish the 'true' criminals.

[Union Thug]

146. BUT THE ORDERS INCLUDE "LOOTERS"

at least that what I heard...

Fuck 'em. If my family is starving, I'll loot from whatever abandoned shop I happen across. Property NEVER comes before humanity.

[CoffeeCat]

18. Excuse me!!

This is NOT a frickin WAR ZONE--you complete IDIOTS!!!

What is our government thinking--issuing statements like this!!

This is a disaster where people are dying! They need food, water, compassion and some hope.

This is not one of Bush's military adventures. A hurricane just happened and people are suffering.

For God's sakes, what in the f*ck is wrong with our leaders??????

Take your Apocalypse-Now-drama-queen bullshit and stuff it!

[Trevelyan]

37. The news media is printing some of the truth on just who is being targeted

http://news.yahoo.com/news?mpl=story&u=/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/hurric
ane_katrina

By ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press Writer
22 minutes ago

NEW ORLEANS - New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday, as corpses
lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out and storm survivors battled for seats on the buses that would carry them away from the chaos. The tired and hungry seethed, saying they had been forsaken. "This is a desperate
SOS," mayor Ray Nagin said.

"We are out here like pure animals," the Rev. Issac Clark said outside the New Orleans Convention Center, where he and other evacuees had been waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead.

Four days after Hurricane Katrina roared in with a devastating blow that inflicted potentially thousands of deaths, the frustration and anger mounted, despite the promise of 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting, plans for a $10 billion recovery bill in Congress and a government relief effort President Bush
called the biggest in U.S. history.

New Orleans' top emergency management official called that effort a "national disgrace" and questioned when reinforcements would actually reach the increasingly lawless city.

About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans convention center to await buses grew increasingly hostile. Police Chief Eddie Compass said he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly driven back by an angry mob.

"We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.

In hopes of defusing the situation at the convention center, Nagin gave the refugees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they could find. But the bedlam made that difficult.

"Right now we are out of resources at the convention center and don't anticipate enough buses," Nagin said in a statement.

At least seven bodies were scattered outside the convention center, a makeshift staging area for those rescued from rooftops, attics and highways. The sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement.

An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

"I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair.

"You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people," he added. "You can go overseas with the military, but you can't get them down here."

The street outside the center, above the floodwaters, smelled of urine and feces, and was choked with dirty diapers, old bottles and garbage.

"They've been teasing us with buses for four days," Edwards said. "They're telling us they're going to come get us one day, and then they don't show up."

Every so often, an armored state police vehicle cruised in front of the convention center with four or five officers in riot gear with automatic weapons. But there was no sign of help from the National Guard.

At one point the crowd began to chant "We want help! We want help!" Later, a woman, screaming, went on the front steps of the convention center and led the crowd in reciting the 23rd Psalm, "The Lord is my shepherd ..."

"We've got people dying out here — two babies have died, a woman died, a man died," said Helen Cheek. "We haven't had no food, we haven't had no water, we haven't had nothing. They just brought us here and dropped us."

At the hot and stinking Superdome, where 30,000 were being evacuated by bus to the Houston Astrodome, fistfights and fires erupted amid a seething sea of tense, suffering people who waited in a lines that stretched a half-mile to board yellow school buses.

After a traffic jam kept buses from arriving for nearly four hours, a near-riot broke out in the scramble to get on the buses that finally did show up, with a group of refugees breaking through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen.

One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.

"These are good people. These are just scared people," Demmo said.
Some of those among the mostly poor crowd had been in the dome for four days without air conditioning, working toilets or a place to bathe. An ambulance service airlifting the sick and injured out of the Superdome suspended flights as too dangerous after it was reported that a bullet was fired at a military helicopter. (One bullet someone noted on AOL)

"If they're just taking us anywhere, just anywhere, I say praise God," said refugee John Phillip. "Nothing could be worse than what we've been through." As he watched a line snaking for blocks through ankle-deep waters, New Orleans' emergency operations chief Terry Ebbert blamed the inadequate response on the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

"This is not a FEMA operation. I haven't seen a single FEMA guy," he said. He added: "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."

FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out.

A day after Nagin took 1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings — and not all the crimes were driven by greed.

When some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, "there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'"

Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence.

"I'm a Christian. I feel bad going in there," he said.

Earl Baker carried toothpaste, toothbrushes and deodorant. "Look, I'm only getting necessities," he said. "All of this is personal hygiene. I ain't getting nothing to get drunk or high with."

While floodwaters in the city appeared to stabilize, efforts continued to plug threebreaches that had opened up in the levee system that protects this below-sea-level city.

Helicopters dropped sandbags into the breach and pilings were being pounded into the mouth of the canal Thursday to close its connection to Lake Pontchartrain, state Transportation Secretary Johnny Bradberry said. He said contractors had completed building a rock road to let heavy equipment roll to the area by midnight.

The next step called for using about 250 concrete road barriers to seal the gap. In Washington, the White House said Bush will tour the devastated Gulf Coast region on Friday and has asked his father, former President George H.W. Bush, and former President Clinton to lead a private fund-raising campaign for victims.

The president urged a crackdown on the lawlessness. (Bush talking about lawlessness, THE NERVE) "I think there ought to be zero tolerance of people breaking the law during an emergency such as this — whether it be looting, or price gouging at the gasoline pump, or taking advantage of charitable giving or insurance fraud," Bush said. "And I've made that clear to our attorney general. (Gonzales, the Torturer) The citizens ought to be working together."

Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.

"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"

[MisterP]

142. working link here:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20050901-1853-katrina-neworleans.html
Think Heston'll arrive in Baton and yell "Live in fear and buy Wesson!" before babbling about chimps?

[Occulus]

54. For the record, I have no problem with her using soldiers.

However, I definitely have a problem with using 300 men who just got back from Iraq. These people should be being slloowwllyy decompressed, away from the rest of society, for at least a couple months. I'm talking paid R&R, a complete vacation in every sense of the word.

Make them safe for everyone to be around again, then send them "home". But for CHRIST'S SAKE, dont send them back into what counts to them as a 'battle' situation on our own damn soil! It's almost a criminally negligent thing to do!!

[ninkasi]

64. I am north of Houston...

I am watching channel 13 news, the ABC affiliate. The Astrodome is full. They are sending buses away, some to Dallas, a man said. The reporter said there are babies on the buses, coughing and with fevers. He said it's heartbreaking.

People have shown up at the Astrodome with prepared food, and being turned away! Those people are at the breaking point. After waiting 4 days in New Orleans to leave, now authorities are saying between 5-7 thousand in the dome, and reporters are wondering why Houston offered to accept 25,000, if there is no room.

This is the biggest government fuckup I've ever seen. Those poor, poor people. Many looters in NO are trying to get food, water, diapers, etc. How have we come to this, that essentials to live are being denied people. So someone, a parent trying to keep a child alive, could very well pay with their life. Disgusting.

[deadparrot]

20. God help us all.

:cry:

[VegasWolf]

21. What is Bush's fascination with looting! Who gives a damn if someone

steals a fucking TV set while thousands are DYING. Bush is fucking insane!

[AverageJoe]

35. Agreed

and many "looters" are just looking for food, water, or medicine.

[SweetLeftFoot]

83. Shame

Bush didn't have same concern about looting in the initial days of Baghdad's occupation.

[DisgustedTX]

22. Locked and loaded? SEIG HEIL!

Who is this moron - Benny Blanco from the Bronx?

[jwirr]

23. Hopefully these soldiers will remember they

are dealing with fellow Americans here and distinguish the difference between a gang with guns out to do harm and the kid who is looting the store for food and water. They do need to restore order down there so rescue work can continue. Every large vehicle from trucks to buses should be used to get people out.

[Az_lefty]

24. Good Lord!

this is the making of another disaster.

[radar]

25. What proof do they have to return to base with???

Showing they followed orders - scalps or fingers?

[VegasWolf]

26. Teenager running down the street with a TV! Shoot him! nt

[Conservativesux]

85. Be all you can be: Shoot Walmart looters and get a college degree.

[bribri16]

28. Civil war at home and in Iraq. this is amazing! n/t

[chomskysright]

29. Stand back and look: this is experiment to see if US can cope w/ martial .

...law.

Back up from the horror of what you see. Waay back from facts like the head of FEMA was an estate planning lawyer and represenative for the Arabian Horse Association: www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/ 002458.html...; beyond the martial law imposed; beyond the knowledge about what class storm this was; back beyond the Times-Picayne documenting 9 times over the past year about the problems with the levee; back beyond N.O. being one of 3 disasters to be anticipated as a very real possibility.

Think bigger than bashing the incompetency of FEMA. There's sly purposfulness here and I believe that someone on Citizens for Legitimate Government may have stumbled on it:

"It was suggested to me by someone that it seems like the lack of assistance in New Orleans was meant to provoke people to extreme violence and chaos. It certainly looks that way to me... but what if new orleans is being used as a test case to see, in a real world setting, how easily a motivated, angry populace (and the military personnel forced to do the dirty work) could be subdued and controlled to create a working model of how to impose endless Martial Law throughout the country while keeping those who might resist under the lid... and those in the armed forces in line. It's a thought... because I find it absolutely incredible how inept the response has been... to the point of criminality on the part of the federal government." --c., CLG reader.

http://www.legitgov.org/

Redact to Stanley Milgram's experiments (no longer possible given ethical violations).

Its Stanley Milgram's experiments in vivo: how much torture will someone accept as given to another? http://www.stanleymilgram.com/milgram.php

Controversy surrounded Stanley Milgram for much of his professional life as a result of a series of experiments on obedience to authority which he conducted at Yale University in 1961-1962. He found, surprisingly, that 65% of his subjects, ordinary residents of New Haven, were willing to give apparently harmful electric shocks-up to 450 volts-to a pitifully protesting victim, simply because a scientific authority commanded them to, and in spite of the fact that the victim did not do anything to deserve such punishment.



Its Kitty Genovese: 'I didn't hear nothin'.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

Catherine Genovese ( 1935 - March 13, 1964), commonly known as Kitty Genovese, was a New York City woman who was stabbed to death near her home in the Kew Gardens section of Queens, New York. The circumstances of her murder and the apparent action (or inaction) of her neighbors were sensationalized by a newspaper article published two weeks later and prompted investigation into the psychological phenomenon that became known as the bystander effect or Genovese syndrome....Later investigation revealed that at least 38 individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack,



Its PsyOps whose intention is to 'convince' and 'persuade.'

http://www.psywarrior.com/

"Capture their minds
and their hearts and souls
will follow"

[chomskysright]

30. "Malevolent Neglect" social psychology experiment

There's a phenomenon going on here re: lack of federal assistance in N.O. and what took place prior to 9-11. I'm using the phrase (as psychologists are prone to assign something a descriptor as a kind of short-hand) "Malevolent Neglect."

We now have 2 BIG instances of Malevolent Neglect: 9-11 and New Orleans.

Both are associated with information voluminously parlayed to Bush's administration prior to the event. This is established.

Back up: get away from the smoke: what do you see: 2 events with massive warning, should've-been-planning, finger pointing during which nothing goes into the US Cabinet and little impact on the U.S. Congress.

I keep thinking back to Stanley Milgram's experiments; to Zimbardo's prison experiment. There are big archetypal forces being examined in all of these settings: sadism and torture.

There is a social psychology experiment being played out here---either consciously or unconsciously. I think some of both, more conscious than not, with the related parties, particularly Rove I think, working the pieces onto the board and then whistling as he walks away into the dark of the night, knowing that sometime/ somewhere the levee will break, the terrorists will take over the planes, the London Muslims scrambling in their back-packs because they all of a sudden figured out what was up.

[VegasWolf]

33. Well said! If I did not know better, I would think that somehow I had

been transported directly into the middle of a B grade Hollywood
horror movie!

[BrklynLiberal]

38. EXCELLENT!!!!

[countmyvote4real]

53. This explains the reported shootings against “Medivac” copters.

If the accounts are indeed real, it’s no different than the insurgency we’ve seen in Iraq ever since the * administration invaded and presumed to take control. People will fight back when they are ultimately threatened. (Sadly, that explains the entire * era. Something scared them so much that they had to dismantle our democracy and economy.)

If the accounts are false, they are planted to spin and propagandize the thought that “evil doers” will be punished and all resistance is futile. (I guess that's a subset of the same plan.)

We cannot trust these people. Period.

[BiggJawn]

92. No "Experiment" it's the "Catalyst"

Once the shooting starts, that's all SHRUBCO needs to declare a National "State of Emergency" and suspend the Constitution.

It's NOT the MO of the BFEE to field test things. The Ne-Cons figure it all out on old "Stratego" game boards then they roll it out, like they did in Iraq.

How fast and severely they slam the lid down on us will depend on what kind of reception Il Douche gets in NOLA today. If it's especially hostile, he'll declare national Martial Law before AF-1 breaks ground getting the fuck out of Dodge.

I'm afraid people will die today because they "Threatened" Il Douche.

[raccoon]

106. Ding, ding!! We have a winner! nt

[Nothing Without Hope]

124. EXACTLY. See my post # 121. The pieces are coming together.

[MisterP]

34. quick, smother the blaze with gasoline!

confirmed by AP and a tough-but-audibly-orgasmic CNN report
pumping up the "criminal element" to well past 3,000 PSI

[ECH1969]

39. I am sure the freepers are overjoyed

[President Kerry]

41. Sorry folks, but this is law enforcement.

There's a world of difference between people taking the necessities, which the police has allowed, and criminal scumbags looting for jewelry, guns, and electronics, leeching on a disastrous situation. They take advantage of a tragedy, and I have no compassion for them. They should be put in jail, and if they shoot at the police, they should be dealt with as any other suspect in that situation, with the use of force.

[atreides1]

44. So are you a Compassionate Conservative like George?

May I remind you that the oil companies are also taking advantage of this tragedy, along with some hotels that have doubled or tripled their prices.

How about we send the National Guard to those places as well, with instructions to arrest the management should they try to gouge people.

Or is it different when a business takes advantage of a tragedy, after all their just trying to earn a living, right?

People are right about one thing, the true person comes out in times like these.

[President Kerry]

50. Gouging is looting.. and yes gougers should be arrested as well

It's a different form of the same crime. What you said being right doesn't make my statement wrong. Most poor people are not looters, and most looters are criminals who probably were involved in criminal acts before the hurricane. They should be off the streets.

[shance]

57. These people aren't looting and you are promoting militarization.

Is that what you prefer?

[President Kerry]

58. what the hell is your definition of looting then??

again, i'm not talking about food and medicine, and essentials.. I'm talking about armed thugs, bulldozing windows, and taking everything within sight! That's pure lawlessness. What I promote is law enforcement. Not for the guy with the gun to take it all.

[shance]

65. What is your definition of humanitarian aid.

Where are all the armed thugs you are talking about?

Where are they?

[President Kerry]

86. There is no f-ing humanitarian aid! This bungled so bad, nobody's

ever seen anything like it. And a big part of the problem is that nobody's there to stop murderers and rapists and other sorts of criminals, including the type I described above. Another poster referred to them as roving gangs of maurauders. Those should be shot if they offer any resistance to law enforcement officials. Period.

THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A TRAGEDY. It's as deplorable as the awful response of the government. Although it's comparing apples and oranges.

[FlaGranny]

120. Ask the folks at the convention center about it.

The reporters did. The stories are horrible. The thugs come in at night and rob the refugees and rape the young girls. The woman being interviewed said everyone was scared and to please send security AND food and water. Face it - societal controls have broken down and more and more people are going to die until it is controlled. Anyone coming in with a bus to help these people is in eminent danger of losing his or her life. If I were there and I had a weopon, I would not hesitate to use it if threatened. It is survival mode. If the military does not go in and go in with weapons drawn AND tons of food and water, the situation is hopeless.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. The forklift was used against a drugstore/convenience store

and the people took ice water food personal hygene supplies medicine - the stuff they needed to survive. Did somebody take a dvd player? I don't know and I don't care it doesn't fucking matter.

You "shoot the looters" folks here have fallen for the propaganda headlong. Is there some crime going on? Sure. Is that the problem in New Orleans? NO! The problem in New Orleans is that this is Friday and people are still trapped in that city and are now dying of famine, disease, and dehydration. The problem is that our big powerful government, lord and master of the planet, is unable to restore order and deliver food and water to a small flood-stricken city in its homeland.

Fuck every last one of you who are propagating the government's hateful excuse for the crime that is being perpetrated in front of your eyes. Go over to FR where you belong.

[Dhalgren]

140. Thank you! I was just stunned that people here were advocating

that the military go in and kill people in NO! I can't fucking believe it! Restore order - yes! distribute food and water and survival supplies - yes, yes! But go in and let privates and sergeants fresh back from Iraq pick and choose who to kill and who not? That is fucking insane! This is becoming the worse possible outcome of this disaster - and everyone is just letting it happen; some are even supporting it...

[NorthernSpy]

158. I just want to say...

Fuck every last one of you who are propagating the government's hateful excuse for the crime that is being perpetrated in front of your eyes. Go over to FR where you belong.

A-freakin-men! Anyone who thinks that the shoplifting is the "real horror" in this situation ought to go take a bath with a toaster.

[shance]

59. Law enforcement by whom? Those who created this tragedy?

n/t

[President Kerry]

87. and who exactly DID create this tragedy? looters may not have

created it but they sure made it worse

[Frederik]

122. The least of the problems in New Orleans

is looting of electronics and jewelries. What matters is to get people out of there. Sending in combat-hardened troops to "shoot hoodlums" is just not what is needed right now.

[lynne]

42. And not a moment too soon -

- When looters have begun to shoot at relief workers and are hampering and endangering the rescue efforts, the victims and the rescuers, it's time to take lethal action. Obviously they are not interested in a conversation or singing around the campfire to resolve the situation. They are also not interested in being rescued if they are shooting at those trying to help them.

No one likes it and I hate to see it happen but they have brought it upon themselves. Ultimately lives will be saved when rescue efforts can go forward without being shot at.

[Straight Shooter]

45. Good God! Can we ratchet up the rhetoric any higher, Ms. Blanco?

Are your biceps popping through your sleeves yet? Chest puffed out from here to Sunday? Is it not possible amidst this devastation to issue a commanding order without sounding like The Terminator?

:wtf:

[countmyvote4real]

48. X dead in damned NO.

Apologies to Neil Young, but I suspect a new anthem will rise from the handling of this tragedy.

[Canuckistanian]

49. Mike Malloy just mentioned this

But even he thought it was too incredible. Some listeners sent him some links from Agence Presse France.

[ECH1969]

51. I can see fathers tellings their sons

about their war stories about the battle of Fallujah, Ramedi, and New Orleans.

[brentspeak]

55. Shoot roving gangs of maurauders, yes; looters, no

There are gangs of thugs roaming the streets like refugees from "Dawn of the Dead", threatening everyone and everything around them.

But they're different from ordinary people who are grabbing stuff just to keep themselves alive. Let's hope the NG and the cops can tell the difference.

[President Kerry]

61. exactly right.. and those surviving shouldn't be called looters,

it's a bad misnomer.

[JoFerret]

161. And you of , course, are there

.

[Tzimisce]

56. You know...

up until I saw the reactions from the right regarding looters, I considered myself a conservative. I'm an independent when it comes to voting, but I never really knew how down-and-out dirty some of my fellows could be, until this came along.

I've read, in the last 72 hours, people advocating a bullet in the back for a mother stealing water to give to her children. And that's just morally repugnant, to me. Stealing a TV is being an opportunistic leech. Stealing water or food or baby formula is doing what you -must- do to provide for your family in a crisis situation.

Sure, it's illegal, but legality goes out the window when the floodwater hits your house and turns it into an aquarium. The fact that some of my (now former) fellows could blithely advocate death for those struggling to survive has opened my eyes and made me question just who and what I stand for. I still consider myself a conservative, but when it comes to the rights of others, I'm liberal all the way, after this. I'm glad I was given the opportunity to search my heart and come to this conclusion, but I'm sorry that so many of my fellow Americans had to suffer for me to have that opportunity at last.

[MisterP]

60. I'd rather have twenty boats go to zombie inhuman thugs or whatever

than another fifty infants perish at their mothers' breasts: there is no excuse for thousands dying

[Mnemosyne]

67. Welcome Tzimisce.

So glad to see you here. We need people like yourself that are waking up to the nightmare so many of us have been watching grow.
Things will get much worse I'm afraid and I'm not talking just NO.
V

[NYC]

88. Welcome to DU.

Those same people who advocate shooting a mother in the back for getting baby formula would change their minds if they were in the same circumstances.

[Dhalgren]

143. Welcome, Tzimisce. I guess I am what you would call a

hardcore leftist, but right now we need to all be Americans for a change. We need to join together and stand up for our country, regardless of our politics. We are the citizens of New Orleans, now, and we have a real fight on our hands. I am glad you are here.

[applegrove]

62. They need to ratchet to rhetoric up. That is what has been missing.

They left a vacuum for the criminal minds. Now they go in..and blast scary rhetoric at the criminals..and send them packing and getting out of town asap. It worked with the Taliban. Taliban offered to give OBL to Bush as the war machine revved up.

Finally - you have to put the criminals on the defensive. Then they go in and there is no shooting. And the creeps have dropped their guns. Who cares if it is only 100 criminals. They won't be out raping anyone come sun-up. And that is all that matters.

I doubt they actually will shoot to kill - unless first shot at - when they have a right to shoot to kill anyway.

We need to stop people from being physically violated or killed or beaten.

Should have happened on night one.

This is not directed at the looters. And really - nobody should be looting anything because it is too dangerous. So maybe they will stay home and then can be rescued tomorrow & the next day when the troops are finally there in big numbers.

Not one more person should be raped. Not one person should be killed. Not one more.

[Child_Of_Isis]

81. I doubt they actually will shoot to kill

I have a feeling it is going to be a blood bath. Like the holocaust but without the furnaces. It wouldn't surprise me if they mowed the entire bunch down with bullets. Mothers, children and the elderly. Anyone left behind will be shot. Dead folks tell no tales.

[daninthemoon]

131. I was thinking that the crowd in the convention center looks

ripe for just such a mass execution. Why else are they there with no food or water, or police protection. I'm terrified by the priorities that have been at work here.

[oldgrowth]

66. Not in my name!!!!

[oldgrowth]

69. The buses are coming with no water or food!!!!

[applegrove]

76. Psychologically dominating the enemy and turning predators into

little boys is a common tool of the military.

It is a tool the Pentagon had at hand, and just like the troops, decided not to send any in ..in any effective numbers.

The number of people who are dying because of lawlessness and lack of rescue, the number of people being shot or raped or not medevaced out has got to stop. The troops cannot get there till tomorrow and the next day. You send the message out before you arrive - creating fear in the 100 true criminals - so they ditch their guns and try to fit in.

When the forces finally arrive.. you don't tell them to leave their trucks or guns at home. Why would you tell them to leave their "psychological tricks" at home.

The order to shoot to kills is meant to put the predators on the defensive and turn them into puppies for all the anxiety by morn. They know the message is meant for them. Let's home some people actually get saved today.

[krkaufman]

68. Anderson Cooper and the rest of the journalists better watch their mouths!

[ngGale]

70. I do believe you are correct...

:scared:

[Child_Of_Isis]

82. It will surprise me if he gets out alive.

Of course they will blame it on 'the thugs'. Reports have already started about CNN reporters being shot at.

[Stil]

71. If they would

have responded immediately instead of *'s vacation time. The could have dropped in guard. If nothing else set a patrol up a few floors up in buildings. Spread them around the area, knock out windows, and watch. If they saw looting (not for survival stuff like food, etc.) but of tv's, guns, etc or violence. Just place a round at the ground by the perps feet as warning. They probably could have headed it off. Even if they weren't able to get massive amounts in right away they could command a large area.

[progressivebydesign]

72. I know they need to stop the lawlessness, but that is frightening. n/t

[applegrove]

77. It is psy-ops. In Hotel Rwanda they showed one UN general yelling

and screaming at a mob of machete wielding Hutus. He used the power of his scream, is body language & his hand gun to dominate them all and turn them into putty in a few minutes. It is a tool. One that should have been used on Monday to get psychological control of the city..not because of looters but because of serious criminal elements who congregated and would have been committing crimes even if there had not been a hurricane. For now - those criminal elements have stopped the evacuation of thousands and thousands will be dead.

The first few days they found people on roofs. They still have to find people in attics and people in collapsed homes. They need dogs and they need to evacuate the hospitals which stopped because of the lawlessness.

Some of the fears of the rescuers may be unfounded. Some say that the gunshots were just signaling amongst thieves. We know a few have been shot or raped or victimized. But psychologically it took a huge toll and stopped all the work. Police abandoned their posts and left town.

They have to get control psychologically. Turn the predators into boys afraid for their lives and get them to drop their guns and try and blend in so that the rescue work can continue.

[Giant Robot]

79. Have a question for you guys...

My brother used to be in the Guard. In fact I think a heart condition is the only thing keeping him from being pulled back in now. But he was deployed for security during the Atlanta Olympics. In talking with him, I remember him saying that it was pointless for him to be there, since he was not allowed to turn a weapon on a US citizen. It seemed to me he was referring to that being illegal. Can someone clarify this a little better? Any Guard or lawyers out there? Of course its also 4am right now and my brain is fuzzy.

I unfortunately don't see this as a black and white issue. I mean, I think it is so very dangerous to set this as a precedent for how to handle disasters, it's scary! And I think it may be more helpful to dispense food, water, and other much needed supplies. I suspect that would be a way to kill the violence and looting with kindness. Of course I'm a bleeding heart social worker. What do I know. On the other hand, I think some authority and control over the situation needs to be seen. And quite frankly, if you are out there raping and killing and looting(well TVs and stuff) right now, I think there is a nice warm cozy spot in Hell waiting just for you. I don't know. It is a horrible situation and there may not be a good answer for these things. It may just have to be the best answer we can come up with, not a good answer.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. I don't think the restriction applies to the NG.

See Kent State. See Jackson State (oh we forgot about that one didn't we?) See the Watts riots. The Posse Comitatus restriction applies to the regular army. I believe that the state national guard units are exempt. I could be wrong.

[Stockholm]

80. Shock and Awe! n/t

[Conservativesux]

84. Blanco doesnt know anything about how it works in the hood, does she?

300 Iraq soldiers with M-16's.

No big deal in NO.

[Flagg]

89. "more than willing to do so"

fuck them

I hope people will fight back.

[liberaliraqvet26]

90. They need to shoot the bastards...

that looted guns and are hindering relief efforts. Comon people. Shooting at relief workers in this situation doesn't warrant kid gloves.

These wackos are terrorizing innocent people trying desperatly to survive this disaster. They deserve whatever they get. Gov Blanco is right in this situation.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. Which bastards would those be?

The bastards taking food and water? Or just the one's taking dvd players? Should the counter insurgency forces sent into NO inspect bags, or just shoot first and ask questions later? Odd that we are trucking in 30,000 troops but we can't truck out 30,000 people. Where are those troop trucks?

Starving people go a little nuts while they are dying. We can shoot them or feed them. Our choice.

[RPM_BU]

95. Seems to me it was made pretty clear

"that looted guns and are hindering relief efforts."

[Warren Stupidity]

98. I believe that this is a crock of shit.

I also think that a simple calm orderly disciplined armed presence of the NG in a PEACEKEEPING role, as should have been done MONDAY, would end any thuggery. Instead NOTHING has been done. The city was ABANDONED. Those trapped inside are desperate and VERY ANGRY. They are dying as we speak, and not from 'looters', from dehydration, from famine, from disease. And you and your misguided, deceived peers are advocating that we shoot a lot more of the victims of this disaster.

Shame on you.

[RPM_BU]

109. Let's see here now

On Monday as the storm rolled in, you would like to have seen the N.G. roll into town. Guess you don't understand what an evacuation is. That means EVERYONE get out.

However, after the storm moved away, it seemed N.O. was not going to be in any danger and had in fact weathered the storm fairly well. It wasn't until late Monday night, early Tuesday morning that the water starting spilling out of the canal and into the city. Beginnig on Tuesday was when the N.G. starting sending people down there to help with getting people oput of the flood waters. Now is when the looting and mayhem begin.

The first N.G. troops intothe city went unarmed, as they should have. Who in their right mind would expect that the people getting rescued would begin shooting at the rescuers ?

These are the people that need to be eliminated. Do you really expect that the N.G troops should just sit there and be fired upon ? Should they not be allowed to return fire ? Does this situation give anyone the right to bear arms against the people trying to save people's lives ? What part of the "if fired upon they have authority to return fire" do you not agree with ?

[liberaliraqvet26]

151. VICTIMS ARE NOT TOTING ASSAULT RIFLES...

and terrorizing people. Wake up

[liberaliraqvet26]

150. did you read my post...

there are groups of armed nuts with assault rifles running around the city terrorizing people, what is the guard supposed to do?? This goes well beyond looting for survival.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. Welcome to Nawlinsbad. Let's hope nobody gets killed for a....

...bottle of water and/or something to eat.

[MarkTwain]

99. GOOD for Ms. Blanco! .....

.... there is absolutely no excuse for those murderers firing upon Coast Guard helicopters attempting to rescue people.

To repeat from the other thread on this topic:

Further, there is absolutely no excuse for those thieves who steal televisions, jewelery, and all the other items we have seen carried and floated away that are non-essential to the support of life - no matter how much false, contrived, and phony "logic" and misplaced sympathy we see on this board which impotently attempts to explain away these acts of predation.

Without equivocation, the rule of law must be established before any meaningful, consistent, and true help and support can be given to this tragic situation and to the people who suffer it.

These looters and those who attempted murder upon the pilots of the choppers are but a scant three or four decimals places to the right in terms of the percentage of the souls who are suffering this overwhelming fuck up by the federal and state governments. The vast majority do not need their ilk making a horrendous situation even worse by their criminal acts.

Ready. Aim. Fire. It's the first strong statement of governance which I have yet to see from these fuck-ups "managing" this tragedy.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkTwain]

112. " So first the dying people ....

....stranded in New Orleans must behave themselves.. "

Yes. I don't believe that it's really all that much to ask that "the dying people stranded in New Orleans" must not shoot to kill the brave pilots of the choppers who are attempting to rescue them from their horrendous plight.

Sounds kind of right to me, at least.

Moreover, one might suggest that they not waste their time nor exhaust their efforts on the theft of items for which they have no immediate life-saving need - and instead, concentrate on helping themselves and those around them survive this colossal fuck up by the federal and state governments - and, not make matters worse.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkTwain]

114. Prior to making such a "kind" suggestion...

... you might have wanted to check my DU profile and note my city.

I lived through Hurricane Andrew and was at Ground Zero for that "event." Therefore, I do have a modicum of understanding - albeit not to the severity that the poor souls in NO are suffering - as to the overwhelming circumstances they are withstanding. I lost a home, a job, and had to relocate myself as a result of that Cat 5 storm.

And you, too, have a nice day with my gratitude for your "thoughtful" debate.

[Frederik]

123. Who cares about the fucking jewelry

I'm so sick of people who see looting jewelry and DVD players as a capital crime and the biggest fuvcking problem in the world. Of course there's going to be looting and people taking advantage of the situation. That is the LEAST of the problems in New Orleans now. There is NO EXCUSE for shooting looters, unless they are aiming a waepon at you or somebody else. Any National Guardsman who does will be a murderer.

[MarkTwain]

129. It's called "the rule of law" ....

... a concept - and a necessary predicate to establishing order and thus saving the tragic souls suffering this event - that is becoming increasingly foreign to a growing number of my fellow progressives.

Pity.

[daninthemoon]

132. No way. Human life is all that matters today! The rest can wait.

[MarkTwain]

134. Agreed. Including the lives....

... of the helicopter pilots who are being shot at. The bus drivers who are being hijacked.

You can not protect "human life" until there is an effective command and control established and the rule of law re-instituted.

Such is a basic primer of civilization for the last six thousand years. It's Sad that so many here fail to recognize this elemental rule of human conduct in the face of their emotional hysteria.

[bamacrat]

104. Wow, so it begins.

They just needed something huge to start the dictatorship. Too bad peoples suffering is their something. Fucking pukes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

110. I wonder if I would have stolen a gun and ammunition.

Knowing the situation was likely to be inflammatory. As a woman with children I'm not sure I wouldn't have tried to get a gun to protect myself and my kids. Or had my husband get his hands on one if he were with me. No I wouldn't be firing at rescue helicopters but I'm also wondering about that.

We're not on the ground but I'm seeing an awful lot of assumptions about motivation. Is it possible that some people stole guns out of fear and self-protection rather than to go on a crime spree? Is it possible some people are firing into the air to get the attention of rescue helicopters and are not firing AT the helicopter?

Imagine a news camera from a helicopter filming a person shooting another person who was lying down. The entire country would be up in arms over a senseless execution-style murder. But what if the "victim" was the murderer's brother and he was begging to be put out of his misery because he knew he was going to die painfully before help could arrive?

I don't know.

I just know I haven't a clue what is going on in anyone's mind there right now. About the only thing I have zero zero zero tolerance for is rape. There is absolutely no excuse for that. Everything else is blurry. Could be heinous, could be tragic.

[slackmaster]

133. If you think you might want a gun, buy it before disaster strikes

Get safety training and learn to shoot. Practice safe storage. Do it when you have options. If you have a gun you don't have to use it. If you don't have one and need it you are up the shit creek.

[tonekat]

111. At this point, theres prob no food left to steal

That would have been the first thing to go, along with the water, and in that fetid climate, what food is left is likely inedible, unless it's canned.
Anyone else have a look at the freeper threads on this subject? The more extreme statements expressed there indicate a strong interest in "playing army" than establishing law and order.
But on the other hand, the paranoia I see here with it's assumptions of wholesale executions of citizens is just as extreme.

[alarcojon]

116. Given what the London cops did to Mr. de Menezes

I fear for what 600 itchy-trigger-finger troops fresh from getting shot at in Iraq will do. I understand the need to restore order, but people are going to be shot for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and of the wrong color.

[Nothing Without Hope]

121. So they think they've brainwashed the Guard so that they can be part of

their dreamed-of fascist Pentagon-directed military domestic "police" force.

Read this thread and see the bigger picture:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4519574
Thread title: DU- Think about the implications of this: Nat'l Guard in Iraq, NorthCom HERE.

Read the whole thread. This is part of the truth they are hiding, and it will chill you. NorthCom is a MAJOR piece. It was initially headed by the same general who was the NORAD chief who oversaw the amazing string of "coincidences" by which interceptor fighter jets were called off during the very long flights of the hijacked planes on 9/11. Read about the horror of NorthCom here in an article written by a Canadian:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411C.html

Don't be put off by the title. Read the NorthCom article and that thread and you will understand more.

Guess I was partly wrong - I thought they sent the Guard to Iraq to use them up and destroy them so that NorthCom could take over as they work toward martial law in the US. As the Chinese discovered during the student protests in Beijing some years ago, local troops just don't want to shoot their familiar fellow citizens. So the Chinese imported troops from thousands of miles away, people who had a totally different cultural background. It worked. The protest was most brutally crushed by hardened soldiers without any compunction.

Looks like turning OUR National Guard into hardened soldiers without any compunction was part of the goal after all. Besides, they don't want to unveil NorthCom as a military domestic enforcer cadre until they have to.

I suspect the drowning of New Orleans and the Administration abandonment without relief of the hurricane-devastated areas of the South WERE DELIBERATE steps toward this. Bush wanted a military domestic police force, and he's getting it. I call what happened to New Orleans LIWOP - let it worsen on purpose. To read why I think so, work through this thread and see how the pieces fit together:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523783
Thread title: CNN/New Orleans:"Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breeches" and that's {only the beginning}:

Orwell would understand. And we need to ask: Dick Cheney is still on "vacation." What's he REALLY doing?

[indepat]

125. Bringing in troops to shoot to kill before sufficient water and food are

brought in says it all.

[superconnected]

126. I read this on Yahoo news about 20 minutes ago.

Yep. Thanks George you put the k in money. You Monkey.

[tuckessee]

127. Support the Troops!!!!!

Remember they're only doing their duty when they slaughter desperate victims of a natural disaster.

[liberaliraqvet26]

153. VICTIMS TERRORIZING PEOPLE WITH AK-47's???

are those "victims" to you???

[KansDem]

128. This will make Kent State look like a game of "Red Rover..."

All we need is a large crowd of hungry, thirsty, tired civilians who may look like "hoodlums" to well-armed soldiers and we'll have a blood bath the likes that will be felt by this country for decades to come.

[liberaliraqvet26]

152. Kent State protesters were not toting AK-47's...

People what would you suggest doing to groups of nuts terrorizing surviviors and shooting at rescue convoys????

[Voltaire99]

136. Can these troops be trusted?

What a volatile mixture: a population that knows it has been left to die in abject squalor and military forces who have been deceived, ill-used, and introduced to massacre. We will be lucky if there are no further catastrophes.

New Orleans is not a military situation; it is an epic humanitarian crisis created by indifference, greed, and racism. Troops returned from the hell of Iraq belong under supervision and care--and not with their weapons trained on fellow Americans.

[Union Thug]

147. Absolutely not. The orders aren't to help, they are to kill

...there's no fine line here. The context is set. Let the shooting gallery begin!

[liberaliraqvet26]

154. Thats a disgusting thing to say.

most soldiers in the guard join to help people.

[aikoaiko]

144. During the EVAC for Hurrican Floyd, there were military or LEO at every

.... major interesection and it really did help keep people in line and cooler heads prevailed. This was in the Ssavannah area.

Of course, the situation is much much more extreme in NOLA, but a heavy LEO/military presence really can help the effort.

[Union Thug]

145. Outrageous... Dangerously close to "He killed his own people"

So, I heard that shoot to kill was a policy to keep people from 'looting'

So the painful truth is manifest... Property before humanity.

This adminstration makes me sick. If it were me, and my family were starving, you know I'd take food and supplies from WHEREEVER I could find it to keep them alive

Inexcusable. I hate these people.

[MisterP]

149. and not a peep about evacuees or aid trucks, whick the Astroturf

gives as an excuse?

[valerief]

165. It is stil beyond my comprehension as to why these soldiers

Would actually shoot. Can't any of them see themselves in eyes of the victims? They must be robosoldiers, or something. They can't be human.

[DemVet]

148. Sad, but necessary...

...it's just too damned bad Bush let it get this bad that it had to come to this though. Absolutely shameful.

[ignatius 2]

163. If they want to shoot and kill looters, what about Enron and

Halliburton execs, they are looting billions of taxpayers dollars.

It seems as if the rule of law is dying along with democracy in our country.

[valerief]

164. TIME FOR SOMEONE TO PULL A ROBERTSON

It's wonderful that all these other countries are donating relief items and money, but, if they really want to help the US, one of them should pull a Robertson. We know who the targets should be.

[Solly Mack]

167. When soldiers went in after Andrew, were they given a shoot to kill order?

And soldiers DID deploy to Florida after Andrew but I don't recall a shoot to kill order.


This "shoot to kill" mentality is sickening.