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Mistwell Donating Member (553 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:31 PM
Original message
Corps Officials Say New Orleans' Flood Walls Were in Good Condition
http://www.enr.com/news/environment/archives/050901c.asp

HURRICANE RESPONSE

Corps Officials Say New Orleans' Flood Walls Were in Good Condition 9/1/2005

By Tom Ichniowski

Leaders of the Army Corps of Engineers say the city's flood walls were in excellent shape before the storm but weren't designed to handle a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude.

In a phone briefing Sept. 1, the Army's Chief of Engineers, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, addressed some of the issues that have surfaced about Corps-built structures around New Orleans. Strock said that the project that resulted in the levees along Lake Pontchartrain was designed to protect against a 200-to-300-year storm, which equates to about a Category 3 hurricane, but Katrina was more severe.

Al Naomi, senior project manager in the Corps' New Orleans District, says, "The design was not adequate for a storm of this nature." He adds that to cover a Category 5 storm, work on storm protection improvements would have had to start 20 or 25 years ago.

The levee breaches occurred in areas that were "in excellent condition" before the storm and were inspected, said Naomi. He said there was nothing the Corps could have done involving the completed floodwalls that could have prevented the breaches.

Another question concerned the allocation of national resources during a war. The war in Iraq has not had an impact on the Corps budget, said Strock. According to his analysis, Corps funding "has been fairly stable" since the early 1990s and the Corps has spent more than $300 million since 2002 on storm protection in the New Orleans area. "We were just caught by a storm of an intensity which exceeded the design of the project we have in place," he said.

Some Corps contracts in the area had been delayed, but Naomi says those contracts were not in the sections of the levees that failed.

Since the 1930s, Louisiana has lost more than 1.2 million acres of wetlands, which act as a natural buffer against storms. But Strock contends that wetlands losses "did not have a significant impact" in the case of Katrina. He says that most of the losses of wetlands and barrier islands were south and west of the city, and not in Katrina's path.

Asked about the cost of the initial repairs and the longer-term work, Strock said, "We're doing everything humanly possible to stop the flow of water and it's going to cost what it's going to cost."

Walter Baumy, chief of engineering in the New Orleans District, says that a contract is under way at the breached 17th Street Canal, where the Corps plans to drive sheet piles to close the canal where it meets Lake Pontchartrain. He says the first sheet pile has been driven and he hopes that the canal will be closed sometime Sept. 1.

At the London Ave. Canal, which parallels the 17th Street Canal, Baumy says the Corps is working with contractors to get material to the site to fill in the gap. "Once we seal those two places," he says, "we should stop water going into the city."

After that, the next task will be to pump out the remaining water that has covered large parts of New Orleans. Baumy says the Corps is working with the New Orleans Sewerage and Water Board to identify pumping stations to get into service quickly, then to get those stations dry and ready to pump. "We need to give them a dry place to work, " Baumy said, but didn't estimate how long the de-watering would take.

Strock says that as Lake Pontchartrain's level recedes, the water flows should stabilize--and should be nearly at that point now--and then become reversed.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Uh huh.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did they suffer serious burns when their pants caught fire?
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yea and I see some pigs flying overhead too
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. It was not a Cat. 5
Edited on Fri Sep-02-05 01:08 PM by KamaAina
He adds that to cover a Category 5 storm, work on storm protection improvements would have had to start 20 or 25 years ago.

It had weakened to a Cat. 4 before it hit land. Also it did not hit New Orleans directly, passing just to the east.

Also while you're at it, explain why the 17th St. Canal levee failed hours after the storm had passed.

edit: not direct hit
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. the waves and surge were that of a category 5 storm
when the storm winds weakened to cat. 4, the surge didn't weaken.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd hate to see what bad condition would bring
lying sack of shit
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bullshit. "Dear Leader did not make a mistake."
"We don't know why he gave us so much money to do flood control, we didn't need it and it wouldn't have done any good anyway."
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BlueStatesForever Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. They've heard what happens to you when you don't lie for Bush
You are fired.
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Bush told me to say that everything was "Hunky-Dory!" nt
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. They were in good condition, other than the fact the water broke through.
And drowned thousands of people, and sunk a whole city underwater. Other than that though, everything held up nicely.
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akarnitz Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Funny
that the Corps only received 1/2 the $ requested for NOLA levee system that they requested from this administration.
:rofl: :grr:
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush is reincarnated, his last job was head of Atlantis levee works! nt
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Anybody have a link to the story about the guy who got fired...
because he dared to disagree with the budget cuts to levee upgrades and maintenance?
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The White Tree Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. Then the president is a liar.
According to this guy the Army Core knew the levees couldn't withstand this storm. Where were the warnings to the population of New Orleans?

Don't you think people would have left if they were told the levees were going to break and were not made to withstand a storm such as this. Why didn't FEMA warn every body and why wasn't there a massive federal evacuation of the city given it's particular situation?

And why, oh why, did the President say that no one could have imagined the levees being breached when according to this guy they've known for years that the levees would likely be breached in the event of a storm of this magnitude?

The BS that is coming out of the woodwork to cover the utter incompetance of the government response is overwhelming. They waited and they hoped and now their reacting, but the way they are reacting is to try to confuse and coverup their inability to anticipate this.

As a matter of fact, after rereading this a 2nd time, it seems that according to what he is saying, they are lucky this wasn't even worse then it was (The bad levees didn't fail as well, the storm didn't come through the unprotected area where wetlands were lost).

So, since they know all this now, presumably they knew it before the storm and I just gotta asked, why they hell did they wait until saturday to order mandatory evacuation, and why wasnt the evacuation effort spared no expense.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. Corps also says the moon is made of green cheese.
Do you believe that?

Mmmmmm! I'll have a Lunar Omelette -- or beter yet, a green cheese muffuletta. :(
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BlueStatesForever Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. Corps: Lack of funds did not contribute to flooding
I'm sure this is one of Karl's minions or someone threatened of firing if they didn't say this, given that it's contrary to what people on the ground in LA have said.

Corps: Lack of funds did not contribute to flooding

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.

In a telephone interview with reporters, corps officials said that although portions of the flood-protection levees remain incomplete, the levees near Lake Pontchartrain that gave way--inundating much of the city--were completed and in good condition before the hurricane.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/chitribts/corpslackoffundsdidnotcontributetoflooding
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. So what did?
:shrug:
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The money that was spent on that illegal war in Iraq did NOT cause
the loss of thousands of lives here at home!!! Karl Rove.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. someone's wallet is a bit heftier for that piece of propaganda
If the whole thing were not so horrific and tragic, we would be :rofl:
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Debau2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Okay Dokey...
Whatever helps them sleep at night.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Money is only important at tax cut time.
It doesn't actually help get things done otherwise. After all, how could money help build and maintain a system of levees? Everyone knows pixies and fairies do that.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Baloney
nm
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Isn't it obvious that they weren't in good condition?
If they were in "good condidiont" then we need a new definition of "good condition."

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Operation Cover Your Ass is on the march
Sorry but the historical record is the historical record and the Corps and its Commander in Chief are just on the wrong side of the ledger here.
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. If the Dutch can tame the North Sea with their resources.....
And if we can put a man on the moon... we sure as hell can build a goddam canal system to preserve a city.
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cvoogt Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. i live under sea level
in Amsterdam, and the US has robots on Mars but won't take care of its own citizens. It's serial negligent homicide at best, genocide at worst.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. The Chief Of Engineers Is Probably "Choo-Choo Charlie"
and his main qualification is a love of Good-N-Plenty.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Only problem with this story
The winds that hit NO were not in cat 4 range. There was not nearly the wind damage there as on the other side in MS and AL. There are current and former Corps Engineers, who have been very critical of the cuts in funding as well.

Its more important to me that there was poor preparation for the worst case scenario, which was undoubtedly affected by cuts in the programs and other changes to FEMA.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The winds are not the important part of it.
And the levees' failing is troublesome. It makes me wonder if they did their homework right, and if the other levees are actually as strong as they think.

A hefty post-mortem's in order when they can get folks on the ground to examine the levees in detail.

Next month.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. the storm surge stayed category 5 even though the winds
were reduced to cat 4
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Prep should have started long ago
The storm surge that was received was just about the upper limit for the Levee system. Upgrading the 0overall levee system to withstand a stronger storm could have saved NO. But such a construction can't be done in only one or two years. That would be a major upgrade to every Levee in the system.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. I see my fellow posters have marshalled their facts and keen insight
to rebutt the ACE assertions.


The figures that have been much bandied about don't lie; but they haven't spoken with enough detail to support everybody's assertions. The articles mentions all the same figures. It's what the people on the ground keep saying, apart from the obvious "If the levees fail ...". But they're fairly pointless figures, to be honest. ACE, presumably, would have access to the fine-grained figures. They won't be alone; you can be assured that dem senators will be on this, and if ACE is not telling the whole truth, we'll know in fairly short order.


The crucial bit: "However, they noted that the levees were designed for a Category 3 hurricane and could not handle the ferocious winds and raging waters from Hurricane Katrina, which was a Category 4 storm when it hit the coastline. The decision to build levees for a Category 3 hurricane was made decades ago based on a cost-benefit analysis." *That* was their target for upgrading the levees.

People got complacent because the frequency and force of hurricanes tapered off for a few decades.
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Let me see if I can clarify this..
Corp of Engineers spokesman on CSpan.....

"The levees in NO were designed to withstand a category 3... Since 2001 we have had the money necessary to maintain this level...This takes into consideration 99.5% of hurricane scenarios.... What has happened was a "300 year? incident" that could not be foreseen."
______________________

(Sounds like the 500 year flood of '93 that also happened in '65)

So what he's saying is the levees were being maintained at a level consistent with the money they had after 2001. I'm assuming the 99.5% thing was decided by the amount of money they had available.

Pre 2001 cuts, they may have been maintained at 99.5+ probability.

:shrug:
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. The tooth fairy forgot to tell him about a wall sinking 4 feet in one
place. A pig the size of an elephant just flew over my house. All my God, it was Dumbo!
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm sure they were in good condition (for a Category 3 storm)
And they were 80% on the way to being able to handle a Category 4 storm when Bush pulled the construction funding. The point is, you KNEW that the levees coudn't handle a Category 4 storm, and when the funding was pulled, nobody saw fit to come up with a backup plan!!!!

:mad:
rocknation
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cvoogt Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
36. they WERE in good condition. they sure as hell aren't now
it really doesn't matter what their reasons / excuses are. if we can preemptively strike abroad why not do so here against natural disasters? Build for a category 5 - that cost benefit analysis is not of much use now anymore.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
37. Levee to withstand Cat 3.This was forecast a Cat 5.The Levees broke.
Population should have been told they would most probably break and disaster relief should have been there already.( oops,first call Halliburton and have lawyers iron out contract )
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. Obviously not good enough condition.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-02-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. How do Republicans stand there and lie when the facts are everywhere in
black and white? It is a FACT that the levees were not completed.
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