NYT: Navy Pilots Who Rescued Victims Are Reprimanded

[Carolab]

By DAVID S. CLOUD
Published: September 7, 2005

PENSACOLA, Fla., Sept. 6 - Two Navy helicopter pilots and their crews returned from New Orleans on Aug. 30 expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety.

Instead, their superiors chided the pilots, Lt. David Shand and Lt. Matt Udkow, at a meeting the next morning for rescuing civilians when their assignment that day had been to deliver food and water to military installations along the Gulf Coast.

"I felt it was a great day because we resupplied the people we needed to and we rescued people, too," Lieutenant Udkow said. But the air operations commander at Pensacola Naval Air Station "reminded us that the logistical mission needed to be our area of focus."

The episode illustrates how the rescue effort in the days immediately after Hurricane Katrina had to compete with the military's other, more mundane logistical needs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07navy.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1126072863-wH8ewn9+Jn3MhqdEDLWMXA

[Barrett808]

1. How many Navy choppers are in Iraq? n/t

[Trevelyan]

47. There is another interview on this site, where a reporter asks Scotty

about this and the reporter asks if the Naval airmen who saved lives would get a commendation from the president and Scotty said he didn' know if the president could get caught up in the military hierarchy or some inane thing. Leave a letter on this site it is really good it also links to an editorial blasting the slow response that cost tens of thousands of lives "My Pet Goat, Part 2" -

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001055403

~~By E&P Staff

Published: September 06, 2005 5:35 PM ET

NEW YORKWhite House Press Secretary Scott McClellan had not had a full-length press briefing in Washington, D.C. for weeks, and after today, may have wished he had postponed this one. With almost unprecedented vigor, the press corps attacked and probe the federal response to the hurricane disaster, the president's personal responsibility and failure to fire anyone who failed in his or her mission.

[FloridaPat]

2. What is wrong with our government! Is everyone at the fed level nuts?

[saigon68]

19. The rescued were "THROWAWAY NEGROES"

Look at the videos on FAUX, for days all they showed and implied were angry "welfare Queens" and looting gang members. That was the picture for "WHITE AMERIKA"

[chomskysright]

38. Thas right: We're mapping phenomenon: MALEVOLENT NEGLECT:

Back up from the horror of what you see. Waay back from facts like the head of FEMA was an estate planning lawyer and represenative for the Arabian Horse Association: www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/ 002458.html...; beyond the martial law imposed; beyond the knowledge about what class storm this was; back beyond the Times-Picayne documenting 9 times over the past year about the problems with the levee; back beyond N.O. being one of 3 disasters to be anticipated as a very real possibility.

Think bigger than bashing the incompetency of FEMA. There's sly purposfulness here and I believe that someone on Citizens for Legitimate Government may have stumbled on it:

"It was suggested to me by someone that it seems like the lack of assistance in New Orleans was meant to provoke people to extreme violence and chaos. It certainly looks that way to me... but what if new orleans is being used as a test case to see, in a real world setting, how easily a motivated, angry populace (and the military personnel forced to do the dirty work) could be subdued and controlled to create a working model of how to impose endless Martial Law throughout the country while keeping those who might resist under the lid... and those in the armed forces in line. It's a thought... because I find it absolutely incredible how inept the response has been... to the point of criminality on the part of the federal government." --c., CLG reader.

http://www.legitgov.org/

Redact to Stanley Milgram's experiments (no longer possible given ethical violations).

Its Stanley Milgram's experiments in vivo: how much torture will someone accept as given to another? http://www.stanleymilgram.com/milgram.php

Controversy surrounded Stanley Milgram for much of his professional life as a result of a series of experiments on obedience to authority which he conducted at Yale University in 1961-1962. He found, surprisingly, that 65% of his subjects, ordinary residents of New Haven, were willing to give apparently harmful electric shocks-up to 450 volts-to a pitifully protesting victim, simply because a scientific authority commanded them to, and in spite of the fact that the victim did not do anything to deserve such punishment.



Its Kitty Genovese: 'I didn't hear nothin'.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

Catherine Genovese ( 1935 - March 13, 1964), commonly known as Kitty Genovese, was a New York City woman who was stabbed to death near her home in the Kew Gardens section of Queens, New York. The circumstances of her murder and the apparent action (or inaction) of her neighbors were sensationalized by a newspaper article published two weeks later and prompted investigation into the psychological phenomenon that became known as the bystander effect or Genovese syndrome....Later investigation revealed that at least 38 individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack,



Its PsyOps whose intention is to 'convince' and 'persuade.'

http://www.psywarrior.com/

"Capture their minds
and their hearts and souls
will follow"

[saigon68]

45. They certainly got their moneys worth on the feed back

even if they didn't plan it that way.

[Erika]

3. So let the civilians die?

This military is so FU'd under W.

[aquart]

4. Were they dying of dehydration at the military installations?

Perhaps our military, as well as our nation, needs to reorder its priorities.

WHY are we a nation? WHAT is the purpose of the United States of America?

[Trevelyan]

48. Even the police in NOLA had to "loot" to get water and food.

The PsyOps page was very good. Their are several sites on brainwashing maybe we could convince a few wavering FReepers or those confused, not believing MSM but unaware of the alternate media on the Internet by posting a few paragraphs and links to truthsites on neutral sites like AOL Messageboards about what the Corporate owned and State sponsored media has been doing to the truth for the past 5 years at least.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. If our country is ever to be strong again, it will take many, many

brave people breaking rules that don't make sense, to do right by the public.

[burythehatchet]

23. Civil disobedience

The lessons of Gandhi are eternally relevant.

[Rose Siding]

6. They busted a pilot to kennel duty for SAVING LIVES?

That is messed up. It's not the Lt's fault -his commander should have called for all the other helicopters in the HEMISPHERE!

They really hate it when you think for yourself. Ingenuity was once regarded as an asset.

[ridgerunner]

32. True story

One day my CPO told me to change the light bulbs in our shop at 1100 after I had finished with another job. I finished the other job around 1030 so I went ahead and changed out the bulbs. The CPO came into the shop about 1105 and asked me why I wasn't changing the bulbs. I told him that I had finished the other job early and had taken the initiative and started the next one early.

So what did he do? Congratulate me for showing initiative? Nope, he yelled at me and the 3rd Class for not following orders properly. The military is full of idiots, cause not many folks with any common sense stay in due to all the bullshit.

[Obamanaut]

35. Another true story

I was Command Master Chief in my squadron, and was interviewing a young man getting close to end of enlistment. He said he didn't want to reenlist. I suggested to him that since there were only about 2 million people on active duty in all the services, and many millions more in the civilian sector that he SHOULD get out, I was sure he could find work among all those millions. I explained that I liked it in the Navy, but not everyone did, and he should find something that HE likes. Also recommended going to school when he got home.

He obviously told my CO about our discussion, because I was chastised later for not trying to convince the man to stay in, thus not advancing the unit reenlistment rate.

So I agree, many times the military did seem to be lacking in common sense.

[Nostradammit]

7. " - compete with the military's other, more mundane logistical needs"?!!

J.F.C.!!!

Like the need to defend the citizens of this country??!!


Lieutenants Shand & Udkow didn't get the memo, did they?



I'm getting an ulcer.

[crispini]

8. grr

:grr:

[NYC]

9. They ARE lifesavers.

...expecting to be greeted as lifesavers after ferrying more than 100 hurricane victims to safety...

Unlike Bush & Co., these are people who should be able to sleep nights with a clear conscience. They did the right thing.

[glugglug]

12. Bushco can sleep nights.

With a clear conscience. Clear as a vacuum.

[NYC]

16. How true.

He has no conscience at all. I chose my words poorly when I made that post.

[bpilgrim]

10. patriotic americans doing the RIGHT THING

:toast:


peace

[Cassius23]

11. I just sent an e-mail to Lt David Shand

Here it is below. I found his e-mail through Google. I'll give it out if he oks it.

--- James Jones <SPAMPROTECATyahoo.com> wrote:

> First, I found your e-mail address by digging a bit
> on
> the internet(if you aren't the Lt. David Shand from
> Pensacola that helped save citizens of New Orleans
> mentioned in a recent article in the New York Times,
> please kindly disregard this e-mail with my
> apologies). I apologize for intruding upon your
> privacy but I felt in light of the article I read in
> the New York Times that at least someone should say
> something.
>
> As someone who spent many a summer in New Orleans
> and lived in Birmingham, Alabama for many years I wanted
> to say thank you. Sometimes in our lives we make
> tough choices as far as what we think is right and
> sometimes our leaders don't agree with them. This,
> however, doesn't make those decisions any less
> right.
>
> And what you did was good, honorable and did both
> you,
> the Navy, and your country proud.
>
> Thank you,
>
> James Jones
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

[Dogmudgeon]

13. Cmdr. Holdener needs to hear from his employers

And it is WE who are his employers.

I suggest registering our concerns with the Commander. While looking for his .MIL address, I did find some information on him, and he appears to be a straight arrow. He's been involved in search and rescue for some time, and NAS (Naval Air Station) Pensacola appears to be a major hurricane relief base. His nickname is "Krusty", by the way.

It does not appear that Holdener brought the hammer down on the lieutenants, and as the son of a long-time Navy sailor turned Army infantryman, I understand the importance of "running a tight ship" to the military. Perhaps a brief note or five will allow Cmdr. Holdener to encourage enhancement of the humanitarian missions of his crew members.

If you do write to Cmdr. Holdener, I can't stress enough that you should take a polite, but not kiss-ass, approach. He does not seem to be a hard case, and he may have pressures of his own. Express your gratitude for his service, and without becoming preachy, let him know that from the civilians' point of view, Lts. Shand and Udkow should receive commendations for their humanitarian efforts and initiative.

As for the Commander's address, I was unable to find it, but I did find what appears to be the base communication officer's address. It is [e-mail] -- and remember, as with Cmdr. Holdener, politeness counts!

--p!

[Hekate]

15. kick

What a screwy world.

Hekate

#Why won't the Chickenhawk cross the road?#
#Why won't the Chickenhawk be waitin' on the levee?#

:kick:

[Trevelyan]

51. Thank you for the link. Here is my email. I hope it is polite enough:

I used the spell check!

Dear Cmdr. Holdener;

I was both proud of the actions of Lt. Shand and his fellow officers in saving lives and dismayed that they were reprimanded for saving
lives in NOLA which should be the first consideration, Always.

I realize that the commands coming from Bush are, how you say, not humanitarian oriented but the American citizens have spoken loud and clear that they are upset, to put it mildly, by the incredible loss of life by bad decisions made at the top of the Chain of Command.

The President of the United States is a public servant to the American people, not a monarch, a fact which this Administration seems to have forgotten. But it looks like the Mainstream Media, having been almost replaced as a source of truth by the Alternate media as seen by ratings and plunging circulation numbers of the major newspapers, is FINALLY back in its stride and according to one of the interviews printed on

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article

with Scott McCLELLAN the journalist who asked Mr. McClellan about these officers who were reprimanded for saving lives, the journalist also asked if the President would give these officers a commendation. (In view of the extreme anger of the Americanpeople at their fellow citizens not receiving even water and ice for daysc ausing the deaths of tens of thousands of our fellow citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.)

I will be writing to this President and ask him to get involved in the hierarchy which Mr. McClellan claimed the Commander in Chief could not interfere with and request that since so many, many died under our Commander in Chief's watch that every saved person of NOLA is dear to the American people still watching the bodies being retrieved of our fellow citizens who most certainly could have been saved if their were any real leadership at the top of the Chain of Command.

I realize that you have served your country for many years and that it must be near impossible to retain a clear conscience with some of the orders coming from the very top but I understand that Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and his 3 Grand Juries which have been investigating for two years the actions of this Commander in Chief which have not been in the best interests of the National Security of the American people and that we may be having new and I hope adequate leadership in the highest office in the land very soon.

I would like to commend Lt. Shand and his fellow officers for saving lives and I hope the military will as well.

Thank you.

My Name

[DELUSIONAL]

14. These men did what was right --

and their children will be proud that their dads are heros!

In the end that is what counts -- what these men think of themselves and the example they are setting for their children.

And FUCK the Navy commander.

[ShockediSay]

17. Is Bushco's mission the killing of innocents?

They're doing a great job of it.

[texpatriot2004]

18. Wow! That's scary. Those soldiers are heros. n/t

[moof]

20. Navy personal saving people stranded in high water ?

Isn't there something about leaving people in distress in the water in the Navy's mandate/bylaws/policy ?

[Shipwack]

21. Another angle to this...

First off, let me say, these guys were trying to do the right thing. But...

In military operations, you have to follow the plan. By delaying their return, and using excess fuel, they might have put the planned rescue mission behind, or maybe those copters were slated to ferry critically ill people to hospitals, and now someone's life was in even greater danger.

Even if that wasn't the case this time, it might be the case the next time someone decided to go off on their own. That's why their superiors had to let it be known that orders were orders, by "chiding" them next the morning at their daily meeting.

Notice the word "chiding"? If they were in serious trouble, the phrase would be "Brought up on charges for failure to obey a lawful order", or at least "berated". What probably happened is that they had a closed door meeting with the "old man". Maybe he chuckled at their audacity. Maybe he threw a chair. Who knows? In any event, the CO had to make a choice about whether to allow a breach of good order and discipline to go unnoticed (starting a slippery slope), or to let people know that there are consequences to disobeying orders. The fact that they were "chided", to me, shows how much trouble they really are in.

BTW, yes, it would break my heart too to see people stranded on roof tops as I fly by. However, no one here truly knows enough about this particular situation. Were they on the verge of death? Could they have held out another day? What were the copters and men scheduled to do when they got back? Too many unknowns... but I am glad those people were rescued.

On edit:
OK. I did what I should have done the first time, and read the article, though it hasn't change my mind much. Since they were unable to establish communications with their base, they did the right thing by answering the Coast Guard call request for assistance. However, they tied up the only two transport helicopters that the unit had, so I stand by the rest of my post.

As for the pilot being assigned to kennel duty, it sounds like it was done due to vocal -public- disagreements with superior officers, and not from the rescue he did. Again, order and discipline must be enforced, and if they were really upset, he'd be up on formal charges.

[progdonkey]

33. whole-heartedly agree

chide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (chd)
v. chid·ed, or chid (chd) chid·ed, or chid or chid·den (chdn) chid·ing, chides
v. tr.
To scold mildly so as to correct or improve; reprimand: chided the boy for his sloppiness.

It's doubtful these pilots came back and their commander said, "How dare you save people's lives?!" It was most likely to the effect of "what you did was very noble, but you should've established contact first and requested permission or at least notified me of your intentions. I need to know where my pilots are."

There's a difference between disobeying an unlawful order and being assigned kennel duty for it and going off on a tangential mission with no authorization and without even notifying your superiors, getting back, bitching that you shouldn't be "mildly scolded" for going of on an un-authorized tangential mission, and getting assigned to kennel duty. It seems the great majority of posters here don't seem to get (or are willfully ignoring) the difference. They see "saved 110 hurricane victims," "supposed to deliver water to military," and "chided and assigned to kennel duty" without thinking from the viewpoint of the commander or even about the particular events.

We need to reserve our disgust for when pilots are court martialed for refusing to bomb civilians, not for when pilots are mildly scolded for failing to show up when they're supposed to (no matter how noble what they were doing in the meantime is), and not for when an officer is given kennel duty for being "especially vocal" about his displeasure at being so chided.

The only disagreement I would have with your post is saying they did the right thing in responding to the Coast Guard because they were unable to establish communication with their base. Since they were simply out of range and not in for instance a combat situation where it could be assumed contact was being blocked or broken, I think they should have continued as per their orders until the got just within range, and radioed the situation to their base for permission or to simply inform them where they are. Of course, if they only had enough fuel to immediately respond to the Coast Guard or not at all, that would be a large mitigating circumstance.

It sounds like the Commander considered it all a wash in the end, as the only direct punishment was the public chiding (which was actually probably more for the other men in the unit than to humiliate the officers in any way). The kennel duty was just for the pilot who vocally disagreed with this mild rebuke.

[Trevelyan]

52. They just found 100 people drowned in a warehouse, the number of people

How many have been found dead in nursing homes and hospitals now and waiting for more.

The military's objective as defined by the Bush Regime was to kill as many people as possible to steal the property of New Orleans.

Many nursing homes and hospitals who sent out SOS were ignored and citizens who tried to save them who were familiar with the waterways of Louisiana since teenagers were not allowed to go in and save people and they were particularly concerned about a hospital and the patients that had sent out an SOS before the military started jamming communications coming out of the Concentration Camp that the Bush Regime had turned New Orleans into - See WayneMadsen.com.

Bellacio has a timeline of all the help that was refused, near and far and the obstruction of this help and the refusal to issue orders to military personnel who were prepared with water, food and medical supplies but the order from the Commander in Thief never came.

Good timeline of evidence of the premeditated mass murder of tens of thousands of our fellow citizens by the Bush Nazis.

[0007]

22. This is America? Not the one I use to know.

and transplanting NO folks thousands of miles away is another thing I don't get!

[Trevelyan]

54. They want to steal the land for the rich. That is why there are polls on

MSNBC if the remaining people in NO in areas that were not flooded, where the ones who were should have been taken and there were closer dry places outside NO than Houston, TX.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. Dissipate the voting power of a blue city. nt

[philosophie_en_rose]

24. How dare they protect Americans?

:eyes:


Seriously, we need a FUGWB smilie to save time. :grr:

[UrbScotty]

25. "Pro-life," my @$$ !

:mad:

[Coventina]

27. It's the "Culture of Life" dontcha know?

:eyes:

[SillyGoose]

26. What is wrong with our gov't when people are chided for saving lives?

These pilots should get a commendation, not flack for their actions. They resupplied the units like they were supposed to AND managed to save 100 lives.

What have we, as a nation, become when the priorities of the bureaucracy are so flawed?

[Bassic]

28. That fucking commander needs to be stripped of rank

and then tarred and feathered!!

[Trevelyan]

53. Read Commander in Thief - focus on Bushco

It must be almost impossible to be in the military now. Send a polite letter to the Commander at the address above and he may join the ranks of a plethora of military officers not only angry at bush but possibly willing to arrest him for treason.

Go to Antiwar.com and see what is written about the irony of some of the press releases from the Generals in Iraq about "breaking the best fighting force in the world" by bad decision as opposed to bush regimes we will be there for another 9 years at least. The irony of the Pentagon joining the peace movement.

[FightingIrish]

29. That brings back a very sad memory

In Vietnam my crew had the chance to medevac a wounded soldier from a coastal island when the weather was too bad for the choppers. Our ops officer was acting CO at the time and would not allow us to carry out what would have been the only worthwhile mission of our depoyment.

[anotherdrew]

30. we need a million people in DC now to TEAR bush physically from office

there has got to be a major price paid for this endless list off bullshit he is respobnsible for.

[Karenina]

41. Three million would be better!

And 10 million even better still.

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. A new million man march --

this time ON Washington, instead of IN Washington.

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. Preventing Freelancing & Preserving the Chain

This appears more about Preventing Freelancing & Preserving the Chain of Command.

[0rganism]

34. The New & Improved USSA, where no good deed goes unpunished

You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the USSA

[bloom]

36. This sums up

as much as anything - where/what the military were doing during this time.

Kudos to the Navy pilots who did what was right.



Everlasting shame to those who did the reprimanding and those who set this policy.

[Supersedeas]

37. so goes the focus of the mission lead by our Frat Boy in Chief

[savemefromdumbya]

39. Was the government ordering not to save people?

It sounds like the government wanted people to die? What were they up to?

[stickdog]

40. Can't take it upon yourself to save your fellow citizens because

you never know when your boss's boss's orders are to let them die and rot on the street.

[Sugarbleus]

42. Thank You Rescuers and Civil/military Servants....!!

Thanks to ALL the rescuers and aid givers that WERE ON SITE FIRST and all those who were FINALLY allowed to come in later to help people.

The chopper pilots of every branch, the swimmers from the navy, the police who fought as hard as they could--plus the folks who came in to relieve them, the firefighters from all over, the doctors and nurses, the NG and everyone else that did a POSITIVE thing for OUR people. Not exactly crazy bout the gun toting militia though..but that's another thread.

THANK YOU AMERICA FOR YOUR HOSPITALITY AND THANK YOU CIVIL/MILITARY SERVANTS FOR YOUR BRAVERY AND HELP... I witnessed a fine use of your skills and I love you for it. You are HEROS. It could be me in need next time. :grouphug:

SCREW THE BOSSES THOUGH: BUSHCO INC.

[MADem]

43. What bullshit--law of the sea applies

...especially when the damn sea is three quarters of the damn city.

The LT who spoke up has reached his terminal rank, he will leave the USN at the end of his service obligation and get a great job flying life flights. He will see his family every day and not have to put up with bullshit from idiot superiors.

That AirOps boss at P-Cola is a FUCKING ASS (pardon my French). I hope he feels some backlash, and as a consequence, has reached HIS terminal rank as well.

I'd love to sit the miserable bastard's selection board...I'd tank him in the tank, first thing out of the gate!! With GUSTO!!!

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

44. Those pilots can stand tall.

They did the right thing, and that will never be taken away from them.

I salute them. Well done!

[Mairead]

46. Although it's hard to find their email address, how about sending a card?

Can you imagine hundreds of 'thank you' cards pouring into the base postoffice?

[Trevelyan]

49. Very good idea. I will read the whole article and see if I can find an

address. I'm internet challenged so if anyone else has better skills please try and post the address.

:kick: nominate

[Mairead]

50. Here's a plausible address

Lt. David Shand (or) Lt. Matt Udkow
Helicopter Operations
Naval Air Station Pensacola
190 Radford Blvd
Pensacola, FL 32508

[BenUdkow]

55. Lt. Udkow is my cousin

This has been pretty interesting for me, I can't imagine what it's been like for Matt. I run the family website (www.Udkow.com) and have been getting dozens of e-mails from reporters and producers from ABC, CNN, local news, etc, as well as individual supports of his actions and the actions of Lt. David Shand. 100% of the responses and questions have shown complete support for their actions.

As far as I know, Matt's flying again, isn't in trouble, and actually did a hell of a job in the Kennel and truly didn't see it as punishment (how can taking care of dogs truly be punishment?).

I've been trying to track the coverage of this thing, and it's been amazing. MSNBC named their CO the third stupidest person of the day (though I think he should have been #1), and there's a clip of it on www.Udkow.com.

I don't speak for Matt, but all the positive comments are much appreciated by our family, and if not for the NY Times story, I think that Matt and David might have been in big trouble for doing their job of saving lives.

[Mairead]

56. Thanks for letting us know, Ben! It's great that support has been 100%

And welcome to DU.

[TahitiNut]

59. The difference in performance, particularly at the command level, ...

... between the Navy and the Coast Guard is truly remarkable. The Coast Guard, with an order of magnitude fewer resources, rescued an order of magnitude more people and deliverd as much more aid in the first week. Even more noteworthy is the demonstrated difference in the quality of the military chain of command. The Navy should feel humiliated that their tiny cousin outperformed them to such a remarkable degree.

[BenUdkow]

60. They made the front page of CNN.com

There's a video on CNN.com about what they did. Has an interview with a pretty pissed-off Donny Rumsfeld commenting on their actions. Here's a link to the video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/partners/clickability/index.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/08/mcintyre.navy.rescues.affl