CT: Fearful Southerners buy firearms at torrid pace (Katrina related)

[420inTN]

By Lisa Anderson, Michael Martinez and Ray Quintanilla, Tribune staff reporters. Lisa Anderson reported from Baton Rouge, Michael Martinez from Mobile, Ala., and Ray Quintanilla from Chicago

Published September 8, 2005

BATON ROUGE, La. -- Gun sales across the South boomed after the first reports surfaced of armed looters roaming the streets of New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. And images of shots being fired at relief workers only elevated fears in some communities.

Now, as hundreds of thousands of people displaced from their homes are being resettled, gun store owners say they're being flooded by a demand for guns--particularly in Southern states and others where many of the hurricane victims are being relocated.

...

Frank Pirie says his Baton Rouge store, Bowie Outfitters, is being inundated by people seeking handguns and shotguns in the storm's aftermath. "It's probably as many as we'd sell in almost a year," he said.

On Wednesday morning he sold handguns to three nurses who were working in downtown New Orleans. Pirie also gave them shooting lessons, he said. The nurses told Pirie they were "going back into a war zone," he said. "They weren't going back without protection."

more, full story here

[applegrove]

1. The "pay-off" to standing down the troops for a few days. Bush

communes with both his racist base, and his base "who fear black crime".

Tally-ho & away!

[bribri16]

15. Just think how many people are going to killed by "friendly fire."

Our love affair with the gun. Had guns not been so plentiful at Wal-Mart, the thugs would not have them to roam the streets. Reaping the whirlwind.

[420inTN]

40. Walmart doesn't sell handguns

At least, not around here.

[Jamastiene]

79. The don't here either. They do sell shotguns. The only guns they sell

here that are not long guns are like BB air pistols, not handguns.

[Jamastiene]

78. Just couple that with the fact that some states have and

Florida recently passed a shoot to kill law basically that states that a person can kill someone in self defense if they feel threatened by the person.

[DBoon]

65. Similar to Daryl Gates and the LA Riots

Kept his force away from the initial conflagration, to show the liberals what would happen if "those people" weren't controlled.

Things got out of control quickly in that case.

[MidwestTransplant]

2. People also bought guns after 911.

Pretty irrational.

[Occulus]

47. Consider the history of the two geographic areas.

This could end very tragically. As if it weren't already enough so.

It all may be about to get a whole lot worse. Given the concentration of certain mentalities even today all across the south, something truly bad may well be more likely than not.

[MisterP]

3. they don't call it the National Republican Association for nothin'!

fear, fear, and dancing on graves and rubble

[jody]

4. People now know that self-defense is a personal responsibility unless

someone is in government custody. It's sad that Katrina revealed how quickly society breaks down but that's just the ways things are.

[ender]

5. race riots... get yer red hot race riots...

does anyone else think that spreading out around 1 mllion african-americans around the enlightened states of Mississippi, Louisianna, and Alabama, and Texas, is just begging for trouble?

at least the katrina victims havent been demonized for looting and raping and murder... because that would just make things worse.

[420inTN]

6. Another snippet from the article

"They're saying this is racist, ma'am, but that's not true," said Pirie, adding that in recent days he has sold guns to both whites and blacks.

"People are just nervous. There is a certain element that was down in New Orleans that has been displaced." Among the good people, he and others fear, is a criminal element that includes drug dealers who have lost their jobs and people who steal for a living.

The FBI, which conducts criminal background checks on those wanting to buy guns, says it's too early to tell whether a surge in gun sales is taking place in Louisiana or anyplace else. In any case, there is no shortage of homeowners putting up signs that read "Looters will be shot on sight."

On the ground, there is mounting evidence to suggest firearms are a hot commodity. Take the neighborhood surrounding the Astrodome in Houston, where gun stores say they're selling at a brisk pace.

[ribrepin]

14. The media tells us that there were child rapes in the Superdome

Of course, these people are arming. What does anyone expect? I was surfing some southern blogs last night(not political), and they are already talking about greedy mayors who are stuffing Hurricane Katrina evacuees into their towns. Trouble is on the horizon.

[anotherdrew]

39. why would people stand around and do nothing? I can't believe it.

could there be so many people and not a few to stand up and say stop it, and make it stop if need be?

[iverglas]

57. but make sure you've got guns first!

Then there could have been shootouts inside the places of refuge, too.

I say "too" rhetorically, there being as yet no clear understanding of whether there was widespread criminality in those places in New Orleans, although I think it reasonable to expect that there was some. I would also expect that it occurred the way it does in normal times -- opportunistically, against individuals who were vulnerable precisely because the normal protections were absent. I really don't imagine that there were people walking around in hats saying "bad guy" and going up to parents and saying "we'm taking your child away to assault and kill now", giving the parents a chance to say "put 'em up, citizen's arrest!" No more than there are in the cases of all the children who are assaulted in ordinary times and places.

Not really a response to what you said, rather a pre-emption of the lunacy that some around here really would espouse.

[shanti]

46. well

there have been people posting on black message boards about and upcoming race riot, but who know who's REALLY doing the posting? just saying...

[Zhade]

7. Can anyone blame them?

Well, yes, if they're buying guns out of a fear-based (and quite possibly racist) reaction to all the stories of looting and whatnot.

But I must confess, I'm thinking of doing the same thing, out of the realization that I'm on my own if a catastrophe happens here.

The damage to our belief that government will help in a crisis was a psychological catastrophe of its own.

[jody]

8. You're right, you are on your on in a disaster. n/t

[iamjoy]

9. I Feel The Same Way

My government can't or won't protect me.
I must learn to defend myself.

I would want one of those smart guns though, that no one else could fire.

[420inTN]

10. Re: buying guns out of a fear-based (and quite possibly racist) reaction

If someone is looting and shooting up the place, I don't care how much melanin they may or may not have.

[iverglas]

22. what does this have to do with "government"?!

The damage to our belief that government will help in a crisis was a psychological catastrophe of its own.

Government didn't fail to protect the public -- the George W. Bush Republican government failed to protect the public.

And that might better be called non-government than government. What it does isn't govern, it's exploit.

Git yerselves some real government (I preach to the converted), not a hopeless downward spiral into vigilantism and violence.

[Zhade]

35. Well, let's be honest - our government has been rotten a long, long time.

It didn't start with b*s*.

One would hope it would END there, though.

[HeeBGBz]

27. My ex-sis-in-laws hubby was almost run off the road

By a truck who's occupants had been pacing their vehicle that was loaded with gas cans and a generator. They started to force them off the road until the hubby held up his pistol and they hauled ass.

[hedgehog]

11. I had to laugh at the fears about people looting guns

Clearly there were no guns at all in NO before the hurricane. The guns that were looted were for display purposes only. No one in NO had ever bought a gun before last week.

[420inTN]

41. Re: No one in NO had ever bought a gun before last week.

No, they just stole them.

just kidding. :-P

[Megahurtz]

12. Back in time to the Wild West!

"Yer on yer own!"

:sarcasm:

[420inTN]

42. You are. n/t

[Megahurtz]

64. Splain yerself pahdner....n/t

[420inTN]

73. You are on your own.

If you rely upon gov't or anyone else, you are surely to be disappointed.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Just imagine how scared we all would be right now

if Bush succeeded last Friday with the militarization of the response to the disaster? This is what they were hoping for and they were well on their way. There would still be murderous hordes going crazy in the Superdome. It would still be too dangerous to bring in food and water. Reports of looting and gang activity would be rising and now reports would be coming in from other parts of the country. This was the Bush plan for the US after the next attack or disaster, fortunately most people didn't take the bait and we have reached a turning point instead. People are waking up and finding out who the real looters are and most of them aren't even black.

[NashVegas]

16. I'd Have a Glock or a PPK By Now If I Were Down There

As a woman, considering some of the crap that went down in NOLA, I wanna be armed to the gills when Armaggedon comes.

[aikoaiko]

17. Fear is a great reason to purchase a gun.

In fact, in many states, if you are not in fear for your life or the lives of others, you cannot use your weapon for self-defense.

In a few states fear of losing one's property also can be used to justify lethal force legally (like Texas and Florida), but i don't know about LA.

[triguy46]

18. In Braggs Oklahoma...

near Fort Gruber where 2000 evacuees are being housed, the sheriff has instituted a 9PM curfew for the protection of the citizenry. Don't know if that has been picked up on. In OK, its run of the mill, with most saying, "Hey, these aren't people you'd want in your house."

[slackmaster]

19. Only the Southerners who weren't adequately prepared before the storm

:argh:

[blimpie]

20. Instead of buying a gun

Why don't they send the money they are wasting on guns to disaster relief funds? Makes more sense to me than buying a gun.

[iverglas]

21. or how about

vote for someone who will do something to protect the public in the fucking first place?

From floods, from death by exposure, from people who take advantage of chaos to victimize other people ...

Just going back to some first principles. ;)

[420inTN]

43. How do you defend your wife or kids with a check book? eom

[iverglas]

50. ooooh ... don't forget the family silver

Women, children, furniture ... all the THINGS that big brave men have to defend against the bad, bad people ... and we all know who they are.

http://www.goodbyemag.com/sep/agnew.htm

<Spiro Agnew> ran <in the 1966 Maryland gubernatorial election> as a liberal Republican, opposing a white supremacist and Democrat George Mahoney. Mahoney’s slogan was “My Home is My Castle.” (Gary Wills characterized this slogan as “Up with the castle drawbridge, let the horde of advancing niggers silt up the moat.”)

We really do all know what people's fears and insecurities are being exploited in aid of.

[DBoon]

66. How will a gun keep you from dying of dehydration?

Are you supposed to shoot water out of they sky?

[slackmaster]

68. You can use it to keep someone else from stealing your water

Which you put in your emergency supplies before the disaster hit.

You do keep emergency drinking water and food in your home, don't you?

[saigon68]

52. And when the looters are kicking in your door

I'm sure the local police will be right over, as soon as they finish eating their donuts.

[iverglas]

56. ah yes

I'm sure the local police will be right over, as soon as they finish eating their donuts.

So that's where all those police in New Orleans got to.

Why didn't someone think of that? There must be a Tim Horton's somewhere in a secret spot in New Orleans where the cops congregate whenever there's a hurricane and flood ...

[Brother Buzz]

76. No way, it's 'The Big Easy'

I'm sure they were consuming beignets in the French Market.

[aikoaiko]

23. hehe, the Gungeon crowd just can't help themselves, can we?

Of course, I support anyone who can legally own a weapon doing so if they wish.

Of course, I hope all people give a little or lot to help the survivors of Katrina.

And a big of course, to voting in better political leaders who will invest heavily in domestic infrastructure.

[Paladin]

25. Find This Amusing, Do You?

n/t

[aikoaiko]

26. just a little.

-- I was just noticing how the standard gungeon responses found their way to LBN when the Gun Rights & Gun Control forum has been pretty slow.
Its almost like there has been an emergent moratorium over there because of the crisis in the gulf area.

I didn't mean any offense.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

24. most of the NRA types were the first ones to high tail it out of NO

i think I'm beginning to see a trend amongst the "cold-dead hands" types.

they're probably polishing their pistols in Montana right now pissing and moaning about looters in New Orleans and insurgents in Iraq.

[jody]

30. You might be right, OTOH most of the LA guard troops are probably

NRA types. I don't believe many of them fled.

[PylesMalfunction]

28. Does it have to be one or the other?

I own a gun. My boyfriend who lives with me owns two guns. One is a shotgun. We're making sure we have adequate shells for it. I see what the gov't has planned if there is another national emergency and I'd rather trust myself for my own personal safety. I've donated a good chunk of money to the relief efforts, volunteered my time, told everyone I know about the lies of Dubya and I plan to help in any way that I can to get an honest gov't in place that actually gives a crap about the people it's supposed to represent. I don't think owning a gun or buying one means you're a gun-slinging NRA-loving fool. This 5'1" woman believes that it's my right to own a gun. I also believe that there should be strong gun control laws and that if I don't know how to use and keep a gun safely, I don't have the "right" to keep one. If I allow a child to get a hold of my gun, I think I should be held criminally liable. I also believe that I have the right to protect myself from bodily harm with an armed weapon. I wish people would realize that there's a lot of people stuck in the gray area between gun-foes and gun-right advocates. A zealot is a zealot is a zealot. And that's all I'm saying on this subject. :)

[Redstone]

29. Oh, Christ. Just like a former friend of mine who, on 9/11

told me that the first thing he had done after hearing the news was to go out and buy more ammunition.

Typical American response to any problem: More guns!

Redstone

[jody]

31. "More guns"? It worked in 1776 and subsequent wars where our militia

either by volunteer or draft augmented our standing army. By law, every male between 17 and 45, with some exceptions, is a member of our militia, see 10 USC 311.

Note in Louisiana, the militia consists of all persons, with exceptions, between 17 and 64.

[Redstone]

33. Don't hand me that. These people aren't a fucking militia.

The word "Militia" implies organization and training.

I din't see anything about organization and training in that post, just peoplelooking for an excuse to have more guns.

Redstone

[jody]

34. Sorry, you're wrong so read the LA law.

QUOTE
§3. Militia

A. All able-bodied persons between the ages of seventeen and sixty-four residing in this state and who are not exempt by the laws of the United States of America or of this state constitute the militia of Louisiana and are subject to military duty.

B. The militia is divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

(1) The organized militia consists of the national guard, the Louisiana State Guard and other organized military forces which may be authorized by law.

(2) The unorganized militia consists of all other persons subject to military duty.

Acts 1974, No. 622, §1.
UNQUOTE

[Redstone]

38. So let's split legalistic hairs. The people the article discusses

did not run out and buy those guns because they want to be part of a militia, unorganized or not.

They're not doing it in support of the state in which they live.

Fucking guns. It's always "more guns" that is the answer that way too many people in this country come up with for WAY too many reasons.

Funny how so many other countries can endure all sorts of natural disasters without the population's response being "Let's buy more guns."

Redstone

[Xithras]

72. Look up the definition of militia

You'll see that it includes the following line: "The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service."

In the United States, the law defines the "eligible" group as any male between the ages of 18 and 49. Equal protection and anti-discrimination laws essentially expand that group to any citizen over the age of 18.

The debate over the Second Amendment in the US has never been about what does and doesn't constitute a militia, but over the definition of "well regulated".

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[GarySeven]

32. That's right - the ONLY reason to buy a gun is to shoot people

I can't believe I'm going to waste my 800th post like this, shooting down yet ANOTHER Yankee flame about how primitive and savage Southerners are and how we all need to be kept locked in a cage for you to stare and throw popcorn at.

Yes, you're right - the ONLY reason for anyone to have a gun is to shoot people, and the ONLY reason a Southerner would want a gun is to shoot black people. :sarcasm:

Did you know there are alligators roaming New Orleans and the Gulf Coast EATING CORPSES? That there are packs of wild dogs hunting loose livestock for food? Did you ever think that a gun may be the fastest way to protect yourself from such scavengers when there's no power and no phone lines to call "proper authorities?"

I find it endlessly irksome that some of my fellow liberals - those, that is, unfortunate enough to live up north - cannot CONCEIVE of the idea that a person can own a gun, handle one with responsibility and even, from time to time, find it necessary to use without murder or larceny in their hearts. Your limp-wristed, Beaujolais-drinking, effete and snooty reaction to such facts of life as exist outside your urban enclaves is exactly the reason why there is a disconnect with the liberals who live in Red States who might, if you thought about it, help you win elections.

The only more irksome thing to me is you folks who think that Southerners are knuckle-dragging, shoot-something-for-fun Neanderthals simply because you feed yourselves stereotypes that have no more relevance to the 21st century than they did during the 19th. Get a freaking grip and stop demonizing the South. We need to be unified to defeat Bush and his government by gangsters, and nobody - and I mean NOBODY - is going to be able to do that until you folks put down your double-grande mocha frappes and learn to deal with the guys drinking java at the truck stop with something approaching kinship and understanding. Christ almighty.

[jody]

36. Calm down GarySeven, you're not alone here on DU. Polls of DU

members consistently show the majority support the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

:hi:

[billbuckhead]

37. Polls of DUers like most Americans are for strong gun regulations

New Orleans has shown that the unlimited 2nd amendment mentality has been a disaster in emergencies.

Bet that the majority of the snipers are white supremacists protecting white power and white property just the framers meant. Remember that the Constitution only was for white property owners.

[420inTN]

45. Re: Bet that the majority of the snipers are white supremacists

I seriously doubt that.

[slackmaster]

69. How much are you willing to bet on that, billbuckhead?

Bet that the majority of the snipers are white supremacists protecting white power and white property just the framers meant.

I'll bet they were just crazies.

Remember that the Constitution only was for white property owners.

Makes no sense because most of the white property owners appear to have managed to get out of New Orleans before the storm hit. But then, your contributions on this subject have never been very objective anyway.

[420inTN]

44. Yankees Suck!!!!

Oh, I'm sorry. Could someone please direct me to the sports forum?

p.s. Go Red Sox!

[kineneb]

48. hang on there dude

I am a Californio, a liberal, and a gun owner. I practice Bach on the pipe organ and like Brie. I also am a really good shot with rifles and handguns. I simply don't trust government of any type.

[GarySeven]

49. Yes, but you're obviously out West

far away - and specifically isolated - by the "liberal leadership," or those who think they determine the bona fides for being a liberal, who all seem to live in the northeast.

[kineneb]

62. The northeast does not represent me, either...

They don't get the vast distances and isolation of the West. Also, liberal in CA is different than liberal in NY, just by virtue of size, not population.

Ever wondered why so many out here mutter about being our own country?

[iverglas]

51. the thing is

I am a ... liberal ... .
I simply don't trust government of any type.

Those statements really are mutually exclusive.

Loonytarianism does not equate to "liberalism", as the term is used in the U.S.

You may well be a NEO-liberal, but that simply is not what people at DU and places like it mean when they say "liberal".

[kineneb]

61. There is liberal and then then there is liberal

I want rights for all, including rights to health care, reproductive rights, etc. I also wish the right to just be left alone.

I also do not assume that governments will be honest and upright. They must be closely watched and controlled by the people (not corporations) whom they govern. We cannot assume that a government will do anything that is in the best interests of its people unless the people have some power over it.

There must a delicate balance between individual rights and the rights of the commons. Tipping the scales either direction leads to disaster. The problem in the US is that corporations were ruled to be persons. They want the power tipped to the "individual" so they can do as they please. In the process, the commons, along with the rights of the common people, are destroyed.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. ...somehow, we stopped watching...

[slackmaster]

70. I like brie too

And live in California.

I simply don't trust government of any type.

10-4 brother.

:toast:

[saigon68]

54. Some of us progressives in Northern Wisconsin have guns

They are useful tools.

The military didn't teach me to shoot. I could have taught the "Range Instructors" who taught everyone else. This was when I was 18.

Everyone near me has multiple guns. Our crime rate for break-ins and burglarys is zilch.

I get irritated at times to be lumped with the notion that all gun owners are Knuckle dragging morans.

[iverglas]

55. yeah ... and WAY up north here in Canada ...

Did you know there are alligators roaming New Orleans and the Gulf Coast EATING CORPSES? That there are packs of wild dogs hunting loose livestock for food? Did you ever think that a gun may be the fastest way to protect yourself from such scavengers when there's no power and no phone lines to call "proper authorities?"

... and in the rest of the liberal democracies of the world ... we actually think that no members of our societies should be left to the mercy of alligators and wild dogs when we had the capacity to remove them from that danger. I gather that a whole lot of people in the US actually cling to this idea too.

The notion that people living the central areas of large cities should need firearms to protect themselves against alligators (well, black bears) and wild dogs pretty much sounds like the theme of a doomsday science fiction movie to us, as I'm sure it does to all those limp-wristed, Beaujolais-drinking, effete and snooty northeastern liberals to whom you refer with the full force of that southern charm.

The claim that anyone living in a major city in the US needs to keep firearms because one day the social order will break down to the point that s/he needs to defend him/herself against wild animals (and please, really, don't let's forget looters, eh?) after a natural disaster that no one has rescued him/her from ... and that could to large extent would have been prevented had the society actually behaved like a liberal democracy and elected governments that perform the function of government in a liberal democracy ... is simply an admission that the society in question is not a liberal democracy, and a cessation of commitment to that notion.

Say it and have done with it.

In 1996:
http://www.endgunviolence.com/vertical/Sites/%7BAAEC109F-616F-49FC-8E4C-EDEA9EDD71E9%7D/uploads/%7BE1DF2416-4EAC-491E-8141-224E6F2F3A27%7D.DOC
(quick, footnoted reference)

... the retail value of all firearms sold in U.S. was about $9 billion ... .

Good fucking dog almighty. Nine billion dollars on firearms in a single year (10 years ago). Imagine if the Democratic Party had had a fraction of that money to organize. Imagine the school library books it would have bought. Imagine the uses that individuals could have put that money to that would actually have benefited their families and communities. And that's just legitimate sales, I assume, not all the money circulating in the black market in firearms and taken away from families and communities in that way.

A society in which people living in cities have to arm themselves against the possibility of marauding wild and domestic animals (and let's not forget those ... armed ... looters, eh?) is a society that may as well throw in the towel. And someone who advances the widespread possession of firearms in cities as an appropriate response to the failure of government to do the job of government in a liberal democracy -- protect society and all its members equally -- appears to have done just that.

[aikoaiko]

58. any government can fail its people (e.g., Ipperwash).

and the people should have some ability to protect themselves with firearms.

[iverglas]

59. what the hell does Ipperwash have to do with govt failing people?

Ipperwash was a conflict between government and people. Perhaps you can see the difference.

And what any particular government does in any particular situation is entirely different from what a people chooses to define as its government's job and expect it to do -- and give it the resources to do.

And what individuals "should have" the ability to do is always a matter of opinion, and what they will be allowed to have the ability to do is always a matter of public policy.

All individuals "should have" the ability to attend a post-secondary educational institution. Whether they will be allowed to have the ability to attend a post-secondary educational institution -- e.g. to be able to afford to study and not work -- will be determined by the resources that the society decides to allocate (or allow them to allocate) for that purpose, based on ALL of the interests that the society must take into account, and not just any individual's interest.

And the recognition of the legitimate interests of society as a whole and all of its members, and the willingness to forego certain actions in the pursuit of one's own interests when doing so unfairly disadvantages or creates risks of harm for other people, and the willingness to put one's efforts into enhancing collective security rather than merely making arrangements to protect one's self, are the mark of the "liberal", and are what plainly distinguishes yer average liberal from some members of the rkba-head fraternity.

[MisterP]

71. heck, if we "weak urbanites who'll all die if it weren't for Red Dawn guys

in the boondocks" complained every time someone slighted us, there'd be nothing else on this board. I'm a "Western" person, but according to Dan Quayle and his ilk, I'm not a "real American" since I don't farm

[Jamastiene]

80. Chill. Having a gun for self defense can be the difference between

life and death if looting is going on, and if there are ravenous animals bigger than you are, but buying a gun in a fit of panic isn't a good idea. Remember, even Andy Taylor didn't let Braney Fife have a bullet in his guns all the time because he overreacted. The one time he was allowed to put the bullet in the gun, he shot himself in the foot. I don't think we are talking second amendment challenge here, just good common sense when handling a gun. Carrying one in the middle of a panic attack is the issue, not general second amendment rights. Not many on DU are against the second amendment from what I have seen.

[ladylibertee]

53. Why get all smart after the fact? I mean...

is there anyone out there who does things preemptively? I'm not talking about going to someone else's country and killing. i'm only speaking as it relates to this tragedy. Why go back with guns when we now have all these soldiers? .....Can you say, stupid?:sarcasm:

[Gyre]

60. Hard to imagine nurses who've had one gun lesson

not getting tooled w/ their own weapon if their assailant is more than 12 years old. #1 lesson is you have to be really ready to kill when you pull your weapon. If you're using it as a threat it'll get taken away from you and then you're likely screwed.

Gyre

[currents]

63. Guns are fun

I love my Sigs!

[420inTN]

74. Which do you have

I just have the P239.

[Barkley]

67. More guns = more deaths: Some Americans fear and hate black people

And a lot deaths will come from family members killing each other.

[420inTN]

75. I predict a 100% death rate for every person in the country

And in the world as well.

[Julius Civitatus]

77. Never underestimate white America's fear of black people

This is an outrage. Katrina has removed the veil of what we call "modern America", revealing the racist, classicist, 19th century mess that our "civilized" society has become.

:cry: