RAWSTORY:Investigation finds Red Cross agreed to withhold Orleans aid, ...

[CottonBear]

Investigation finds Red Cross agreed to withhold Orleans aid, operates in tandem with Homeland Security

Jennifer Van Bergen

Top Red Cross official Bush appointee, donor


New information surrounding relief efforts by the American Red Cross in New Orleans raises questions about whether the organization provided adequate relief and whether funds are actually being directed to Katrina victims, RAW STORY has found.

Previous investigations have shown that the Red Cross mishandled its 9/11 fund, attempting to divert more than half into a "war fund" before Congress intervened, and moved $10 million from a fund in 1989 for earthquake victims towards other uses. Allegations of similar holdbacks following the Oklahoma City bombing and several later disasters, coupled with the discovery that the Red Cross, mandated by its Code of Conduct to remain independent of government, is officially part of the Bush Administration's national security apparatus, led RAW STORY to dig deeply into the Red Cross and its recent disaster relief efforts.

<snip>

Hosler explained that the Red Cross was "at the table" with "Emergency Management" numerous times while conditions deteriorated in New Orleans and that a decision was reached that if the group set up shop within the city, it might encourage others to come back, creating a secondary crisis.

Hosler confirmed that authorities turned down repeated offers by the Red Cross to enter New Orleans with supplies. New Orleans, she asserted, was considered too unsafe for the Red Cross to enter.

<snip>

The Red Cross is still not distributing supplies in the city.

more...
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Investigation_finds_Red_Cross_agreed_to_withhold_New_Orleans_aid_operates_in_tandem_with_Home_0913.html
***************************************************************
Extensive story which chronicles mismanagement and corruption. :grr:
I will not be donating to the Red Cross. I'll donate to Blanco's LA fund.

edit: add link

[malaise]

1. I stopped donating to Red Cross

ages ago.

[kostya]

2. Agree. They are all about high-paid administration and hoarding money.

[Danieljay]

62. interesting...as an employee of the Red Cross...

I guess I dont get the same information as you. Thanks for updating me on what a effed up organization the Red Cross is. I would never have known. Learn your facts people.

(sarcasm)

[pitohui]

65. some of us appreciate you

thanks, daniel

i don't get the motives for tearing down the red cross at such a time when ppl are in need & they're doing good work

it isn't the first story i've had problems w. out of raw story, they can be pretty fast & loose w. the facts

[Zhade]

107. "they can be pretty fast & loose w. the facts"

Proof?

[pitohui]

114. i won't do yr homework for you

it won't take much digging into stories where YOU have certain knowledge where you will find discrepancies

they do carry some good stories

others not so good

they have to be checked aga. other sources, sorry

i am not a pro reporter, i am yr invisible friend on the internet so i won't waste both of our time chasing down old links you won't bother to read

investigate for yr self

[Zhade]

131. That's a dodge. Why not admit that you're stating opinion, not fact?

It's not like anyone would have a problem with you having an opinion.

When you state something as fact, and then use the old "look it up yourself" dodge when the burden of proof is on you, that's when people have a problem.

If you can't back up your allegation, maybe you should avoid making it in the first place.

[donheld]

171. "tearing down the red cross at such a time when ppl are in need"

When people are in need and the biggest "help" organization is effing up, yea i'll tear them a new one.

[pitohui]

257. ok i get it you're too lazy to check it out

i don't have a problem w. it

but i've learned from hard experience that when i do the homework for the lazy they are of the same opinion still

you have made up yr mind & are unwilling to get the facts

fine

i'm not asking you to change your mind

but i'm asking you to stop interfering w. me & my peeps from getting help from those who WILL do something

there is nothing wrong w. sitting on yr ass, that is yr right

there is a LOT wrong w. trying to stop those who will help from helping

how do you sleep?

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout1071]

75. Really? Then where is the aid?

Why don't you provide some facts to back up your comments?

[Danieljay]

81. Here is your aid, and it keeps adding up

Sheltering Operations

Since Hurricane Katrina made landfall, the Red Cross has housed more than 207,000 survivors providing nearly 1.94 million overnight stays in 709 shelters across 24 states and the District of Columbia.


On Sunday, Sept. 11, the Red Cross housed nearly 75,000 survivors in 445 shelters across 19 states and the District of Columbia.

Relief Workers

Nearly 74,000 Red Cross workers from all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands have responded to Katrina. During this effort, the Red Cross has trained an additional 63,000 people in specialized disaster relief skills.

Feeding Operations

The Red Cross, in coordination with the Southern Baptist Convention, has served more than 7.6 million hot meals and more than 6.6 million snacks to survivors of Hurricane Katrina.

Financial Assistance

The Red Cross is expanding its efforts to provide financial assistance to upwards of three quarters of a million survivors dispersed across the nation. Assistance is provided in a variety of ways, including client assistance cards, vouchers, checks and cash.

Survivors can register for emergency financial assistance, 24 hours a day, by calling toll-free 1-800-975-7585. Due to the large number of survivors, phone lines may be overwhelmed in the first few days.

More than 182,600 have been registered online and more than 110,000 have called the hotline.

Disaster Mental Health
To date, more than 91,000 people have received Red Cross Disaster Mental Health services.

[Scout1071]

87. I'm not saying the Red Cross isn't doing a good thing, but there is

no disputing their high admin costs. And they don't guarantee any of that money donated last week will be spent on Hurricane relief. I believe that the public at-large thinks they are donating specifically to the relief effort when that is not necessarily the case.

On a side note....you seem very combative in this thread. If you feel people are not informed with the facts, how about providing the facts instead of just snarky comments?

[Danieljay]

91. Read this my friend....

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

[OzarkDem]

106. Not enough

Charity Navigator shows only the financial outline of an organization. There's still a lot of bad programming and misappropriation of funds that can take place.

Red Cross needs a top to bottom house-cleaning. Its become nothing more than another GOP slush fund.

[Waya]

162. Try this.......

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/010905redcross.htm

[TwilightZone]

173. The problem with that article...

is that their numbers appear to be way off.

For example, they claim that the RC has distributed only $154 million of the money collected after 9/11, but they don't provide a link. The link they do provide only restates the same claim, but provides no source for the claim.

They also claim that the RC has some huge stockpile of cash. The RC spends nearly $3 billion a year on programs (see link below) and is running a budget deficit of over $100M, so I doubt that they're stockpiling cash.

In addition, according to the below web site, the working capital at RC is barely six months' worth.

I'll take that article with a grain of salt, thanks.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

[Danieljay]

233. its my understanding their IS a stockpile...see my post 232

The 9-11 "relief" is over. The money cannot legally be used for anything else. it was donated as 9-11 relief. And it literally sits. I just spoke to someone here today about it. They said it might literally take an act of congress to release the funds for anything else. Interesting. If the Red Cross was to use it for anything else, they would be breaking the law. If we don't spend it, we aren't doing anything. Either way...someone is gonna be pissed about it. We can't win here.

[TwilightZone]

238. Wow, that's nuts.

I'm a bit surprised that they agreed to earmark the money for 9/11 relief in the first place, particularly considering how much the federal government shelled out to the family members (I certainly doubt that any Katrina victims' families will be getting $6,000,000 a pop) and considering that the Red Cross handles thousands of disasters a year.

That does, in part, explain why they're being very careful now to word it as relief for "Katrina and other disasters."

Yeah, it is a no-win situation. They can't spend it because there's no need for it. So, it just sits there and they then get criticized about it. Nice.

I guess all you can do is do what you can to help and let the bureaucrats deal with the bureaucracy they helped build. :)

[anitar1]

83. Are you an excutive for the Red Cross ? Do you

you have access to highest level meetings? Please fill us in.

[Scout1071]

115. If that were the case, I should hope that he would be working on relief

efforts and not spending his days bickering with DU'ers - many of whom, like myself, have given to the Red Cross.

[Danieljay]

133. I work in youth education...

and I volunteer my off time AND rotate with paid staff supporting the efforts of our nearly 1200 local volunteers. Right now I'm supervising a phone bank, matching evacuees to local shelters, case management, taking donations, referring thousands of calls of in kind donations to the proper agencies.

In another building, we are conducting fast track trainings daily for several hundred volunteers who may be deployed in this disaster. I guess I could add "dispelling Red Cross myths" to my responsibilities.

[Scout1071]

139. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your efforts and all of those

who work for Red Cross. It is valiant work and I have the highest respect.

I don't think that it's unreasonable that we, the people who donated, question where and how that money is being spent.

Having said that, I've got a cold and I'm a little cranky so I'm going to hop off this thread.

Good luck.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

185. Right. Whatever you say.

[lovuian]

93. The Red Cross has turned into a FreeMason haven of power

able to command millions of dollars and it was used for good!!! Unfortunately its corruption has brought it down!!!

[Zhade]

94. No one's blaming YOU for anything.

If these allegations hold up - and where there's a b*s* appointee, there's corruption - that doesn't mean you're responsible.

Rupert Murdoch cuts my check (he bought my company, grrr) - I don't feel responsible for FOX News lying to people (though I do feel guilty for aiding and abetting by not being willing to starve).

[OzarkDem]

121. Its a large organization

and I'm sure you don't know everything about how it operates and, as an employee, you may not have the most objective opinion.

It used to be a good organization and probably can be again, but it needs some work.

[LostinVA]

155. The high level people get paid a HUGE amount of money

For such an organization. I have alot of problems with the Salvation Army, but I will say that most of their people live in literal poverty, and the rest not horribly high above it.

I absolutely believe you all don't see the kind of money Liddy Dole and her colleagues did....

[donheld]

168. Of course it's not the same information you get

Do you think they let every employee or volunteer know about their shame?

[Jacobin]

181. Why don't you post the salaries of the head muckety mucks

of the Red Cross.

I would love to hear your justifications

[lala_rawraw]

202. I suggest you learn

how to have an honest discourse without snide remarks. firstly, I respect your efforts and hard work at the Red Cross, which is an organization that I supported for a long time, until this administration. but to suggest that (based on several of your posts in this thread):

1).You work there, therefore you know everything
2).Because you work there, it must be all well and good in the org
3).Because you work there, you are offended that anyone would write factual information about it that you happen to disagree with

All interesting points. As I have stated, I respect your intentions and I doubt that you or other volunteers and/or other/many workers are in any way involved with handling large sums of money. I believe that most people in the organization are there to help and Red Cross does help. This article is not about you, workers/volunteers, and/or donating vs. not donating. A news article is not meant to address your specific need or give you advice on how to proceed in your decision making.

Your argument is really telling. The MSM works in the way that you suggest. They like the president because he gives them pet names and takes them out for long camping trips. So they let a few things slide here and there.

Other MSM reporters may focus, for example, on Dean's scream until there is nothing left of the man, simply because they like another candidate better.

That is the problem, like it or not, facts are facts. I am not happy about the Red Cross situation, but that does not mean I have to bury the story. So please feel free to disagree, but don't make sweeping statements about the credibility of a news source based on the fact that you "don't like the story."

You are more than welcome to email the editor with factual corrections and any errors identified will be corrected. Humans make mistakes. Reporters are humans. Yet what you are saying is that somehow we decided to write a politically motivated hit piece. That is absurd and frankly, insensitive to those of us who do care about relief efforts.

Feel free to provide factual corrections to the piece and they will be made. Otherwise, feel free to give your opinion, but please refrain from attacking the publication just because you work at ARC. Really!!!

[RobinA]

262. Some People Just Like

to tear things down.

I think part of the problem with the Red Cross, and most charities for that matter, the Red Cross just got caught at it, is that people think (thought)that when they give a dollar during disaster X that their dollar goes to disaster X. This has never been the case with contributions and when it came to light during 9/11 it got turned into, "The Red Cross is diverting funds."

[TwilightZone]

82. Not according to charity oversight groups

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

91% of their funds go to programs. That's about as high as it gets.

[Danieljay]

88. exactly...thats actually higher than the execs told me here

and that was at least 80%. Some people would bitch if they were hung with a new rope.

[TwilightZone]

103. Please realize that people are looking for someone to blame.

And, right now, blame is being placed on just about everyone. Everyone is under the microscope, and any hint of perceived impropriety is considered proof of guilt. Once the perception is in place, it's going to be very difficult to alter.

Don't take it personally. What you're doing is admirable, and I'm certain that the efforts will be appreciated.

[Danieljay]

112. thank you.... n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

186. The Red Cross deserves their share of the blame, do they not?

[Danieljay]

221. No. They don't. The Red Cross was ready and willing...

Federal red tape and beuacracy didn't allow us to go into New Orleans. Thats not our fault.

What about the hundreds of other shelters in the area that we DID staff? What about the nearly 2 million overnight stays in 895 shelters across 24 states and the District of Columbia? Just yesterday the Red Cross housed more than 61,600 survivors in 327 shelters.

What about the Nearly 92,000 Red Cross workers from all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands have responded to Katrina. And how bout the 74,000 people we have trained SINCE the disaster in specialized disaster relief skills?

What about the 8.4 million hot meals and more than 6.6 million snacks to survivors of Hurricane Katrina? Just on Tuesday the 13th we served more than 365,000 hot meals.

What about the financial assistance (no it is not required to be paid back) to upwards of three quarters of a million survivors dispersed across the nation in vouchers and cash?

Our local relief effort in Portland statistics as of today are as follows:

ƒÈ 125 cases opened
ƒÈ $103,000 of direct assistance provided to displaced persons
ƒÈ 1,108 new volunteers trained
ƒÈ $535,000 of in-kind donations received locally
ƒÈ $2.8m in cash and pledges received for the National Disaster Relief Fund
ƒÈ 30,000 phone calls received at the Chapter since August 29th.

[lala_rawraw]

205. I agree

I don't understand this personalized reaction. These absolutes are unnecessary because no intelligent person would actually assume absolutes and ascribe guilt absolutely and across the board, bottom to top. Blame goes top to bottom, simple. But it is the blame that is the problem really.

Yes, also I do agree that people are looking for someone to blame. That is unfortunate, why they should be looking for is:

1). Why these agencies were gutted
2). Why these agencies were stuffed with cronies
3). Where the money has gone/been assigned to in the last 5 years
4). Criminal negligence, because we are still a nation of justice and rule of law, accountability is key in that type of society.
5). Why the right is waging a full scale PR campaign (with public dollars) instead of waging a full blown rescue and clean up campaign with donated funds.
6). Why ARC and other organizations are turning away donations of food, supplies, clothing and such and requesting only funding.
7). Why the dead are being covered and the living are being shipped about and kept like criminals.

Those are the issues to discuss. Blame is a PR talking point that is not productive.

[OzarkDem]

113. It doesn't say

what the programs are, how well they are run, how many are served.

Salaries and contracts to GOP supporters can be classified as program expenses, if the work is conducted for a "program".

Theoretically, you could have a Red Cross Disaster Relief Program with hundreds of millions in payroll expenses and contracts to groups like KBR (Halliburton) and they would still show as program expenses, not overhead or administrative costs.

You could have a fleet of Lear Jets, and as long as they were used a portion of the time for disaster relief, their cost would be primarily written off to a program.

[mod mom]

169. Actually Americas 2nd Harvest has 98.1% go into programs! Just checked.

[Beaverhausen]

138. You won't attract experienced and capable people to run an org...

...without offering a good salary.

the head of the Red Cross probably makes 1/20 what other CEOs make.

I'm so sick of that argument.

[indepat]

4. Never will I ever again

[Coastie for Truth]

52. I don't get paid beans.

Disaster Assistance Captain/Mass Shelter Supervisor

[natrat]

256. overall if they don't get too in bed with politicians then seems ok

[JuniperLea]

3. they told my friend it was too dangerous to take in victims

and to just send money... they won't get any of mine!

[Bassic]

5. Disconnected fools.

They make me sick....

[Danieljay]

63. disconnected and unsubstantiated rumors are what make me sick. n/t

[bloom]

69. There have numerous news stories

That the Red Cross stayed out of New Orleans. Do you credible news stories to the contrary?

[Danieljay]

73. FEMA wouldn't allow us in. And since when did people here trust the

so called liberal media anyway?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

118. I trust Raw Story...

...and if you have solid information explaining why there was no Red Cross presence in New Orleans in the immediate wake of Katrina, let's have it.

[Zhade]

134. Since when was Raw Story part of the SCLM?

NT!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

187. Raw Story was created as an ALTERNATIVE to the crap we were.......

....getting from the MSM prior to the aftermath of the hurricane.

Try again...you're starting to get pretty humorous.

[lala_rawraw]

204. Prove it...

You challenge the credibility of the piece by shaking your ARC badge? That is really fascinating. Now for facts please, because you assume authority over this information, claiming in your various posts that the publication is not credible and that this article is a fabrication...

that is libel, given your "authority" on the subject matter.

As for donating or not, chapters are chapters and local communities are local communities. Simply put, donate or not, up to individual people. The piece is not asking you to make a choice. It is giving you facts, something that you seem very frustrated with.

Now given what I have seen in the last two weeks, from a bevy of sources ranging in ranks from top to bottom, there is not a single organization that acted ethically, appropriately, and in a timely manner during this tragedy. That includes FEMA, ARC, and Homeland Security. I suspect, however, that the reason the federal breakdown occurred is because homeland security, which swallowed FEMA, and ARC (reporting directly to and working with homeland/fema), have all been gutted.

So this article is not attacking you or other volunteers (I was a while back as well I might add). It is simply reporting fact, regardless of how beloved the organization happens to be.

[fudge stripe cookays]

6. Did anyone hear the story on Malloy yesterday?

A lady sent in a letter saying she had gone to go volunteer at a center (I think it was in Baton Rouge, but can't remember exactly...).

The woman who was supervising things there and coordinating the volunteers kept telling them about "those people" and how they were so poor and stupid, and would clog up the system and their taxes would end up paying for them or somesuch...typical freeper racist bullshit.

The woman fired off an e-mail to the head of the Red Cross and copied Malloy on it as long as he didn't use names. And this woman is supposed to be HELPING people?

FSC

[fudge stripe cookays]

11. My family had a long grudge against the Red Cross...

My parents were stationed at Aviano AFB in Italy from 1958-1961 (pre-fudge days).

My dad's dad keeled over and died from a heart attack in January of 1960, and my dad had to fly home to Chicago. Only the dipshit in charge at the Red Cross gave him the wrong date for the service.

My dad missed his father's funeral because of that screw-up, and never forgave the Red Cross.

FSC

[LifeDuringWartime]

42. that's the most appaling thing i've ever heard!

:wtf:

[fudge stripe cookays]

58. Sucks, huh?

Makes me sad just thinking of it.

FSC

[caledesi]

59. Same here ...long time grudge from my 90-yr old mother.

My father was in the Merchant Marines and was in the Persian Gulf when he had a "nervous breakdown" on the ship. They brought him to a hospital in Lebanon.

In the beginning all my mother knew was about the hospital in Lebanon.
She called the Red Cross for help to locate him and see about sending him back to the States. This was in the 50s, so it's not like one made any internatonal calls and the Merchant Mariners came back in general from ship, not air.

She got no help and my father stayed in that hospital ONE year. She will never forgive them.

[Danieljay]

66. damn the humanity of someone who made a mistake.

I guess that makes everything the Red Cross ever did worthless.

[bertha katzenengel]

89. That's not what Cookays said, is it, Danieljay?

She said that her family has a long-standing grudge. Personally, I can understand it.

We all have our reasons for patronizing or not patronizing certain organizations. I don't give to the Red Cross simply because there are other organizations that also do good work in places the Red Cross does not reach. My partner doesn't give to the Red Cross for a different reason. Others give solely to the Red Cross, and they have their reasons, too.

:shrug:

[fudge stripe cookays]

183. Thanks Bert!

You rule.

:hug:
FSC

[TheWatcher]

135. So far you haven't been able to come up with anything substantial to

refute the story.

The only thing you claim to be is a Red Cross employee, and you don't seem to have credible evidence of that either.

Instead of bloviating on about how all of this makes you sick, why not provide some proof that the story is not true.

That would help.

Words are cheap, they mean nothing.

Facts, please.

[fudge stripe cookays]

177. You'll notice I DID say...it was my dad that had this problem.

Nice putting words in my mouth; I was born in 1966. This was before I was born.

My father died in 1980. My mother never gave to the Red Cross because of the problem with his dad.

I had never had occasion to give to the Red Cross before, but after reading this article, I'm not sure I want to.

FSC

[defiant1]

68. Uhhhh....

So was this misinformation deliberate or simply an accident?

[fudge stripe cookays]

178. Probably an accident.

It was before I was born, and sorry if it makes him a bad person, but it hurt my father deeply. I can't say I blame him.

FSC

[CottonBear]

14. I heard that. It was outrageous but not surprising. n/t

[expatriot]

16. Supervisers are volunteers too.

When I went through my training last weekend they said that when you get to your assigned shelter you may be made a superviser on the spot. They are taking volunteers anywhere they can find them. Yes, they make a point to stress the Red Cross Principles but they don't make you go through a rigorous grueling examination to find out whether you are racist or not.

[LynneSin]

21. I don't think the critcism is for the volunteers but the top level mgmt.

I have volunteered for the Red Cross here in Delaware and what you said is absolutely correct. However it seems that shit always seems to float to the top. I think you'll find 99.5% of the Red Cross is an amazing organization that does good for this country but that other .5% wipes out what good the ARC does.

If this article is true then maybe ARC needs to boot out the people running it and get some fresh blood in there to take charge.

[expatriot]

26. "he woman who was supervising things there"

the criticism here is directed at shelter supervisor, who are volunteers.

There are over 640 Red Cross shelters being ran in the area with 120,000 shelter guests.

[fudge stripe cookays]

32. I don't remember all the details.

Call Malloy.

I wasn't criticizing; I was relating a story I heard about someone who worked with her. Not the same.

FSC

[Coastie for Truth]

60. I am a supervisor - and a liberal

I am also a Democratic Precinct Worker, a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, grew up in a solid AFL-CIO household, belonged to (and worked for) Progressive Democrat Clubs in every community where I have lived.

I have been a mass shelter supervisor where an entire city block apartment complex was burned out by an unthinking meth cooker -- the newly homeless were non-English speaking/ESL, and many were on Section VIII.

I have been a Disaster Assistance Captain numerous times for Non-English Speaking/ESL people were burned or flooded out of Section VIII housing. (People who can afford Tenants insurance usually don't need our assistance)

Some of the elitist crap on this thread by self hating "lefties" (in the "Leftie versus Liberal" dichotomy sense - I am a 65 year old "Liberal", not a 20 something "Leftie")

[Zhade]

104. So you're not a racist. Great!

What does that have to do with the post you replied to?

And how exactly are you determining that some "lefties" (if that term is even accurate) here are "self-hating" (I assume you, like everyone else, possess no ability to read minds)?

[fudge stripe cookays]

180. And I didn't say a damned thing about you.

I mentioned a single incident that happened, that someone wrote into Mike Malloy about. It had nothing to do with you. I am a leftie, and actually really love myself.

You can put away your venom now.
FSC

[Helga Scow Stern]

7. NPR said this AM they were all fixed and transparent now, since 9/11

But I don't feel like giving them a fucking cent.

[hardrainfallin]

8. My partner naively donated quite a bit to Red Cross

any idea whether we could theoretically call the credit card company and contest the charge with the argument that they are not providing the services we paid for?

We could then send this donation elsewhere (I wish he'd ASKED ME before he did that, but alas.... ) He's a black man who was really torn apart by the events, yaknow?

[LiberalinNC]

15. He did what he thought was best!

I think it would be horrible to call the credit card company and refuse the transaction. Let it go this time, he learned his lesson, hopefully his money will go to help the needy.

[hardrainfallin]

45. yeah....you're right....now i'm feeling like a schmuck

for even having said anything.... to him

[LiberalinNC]

123. Don't feel like a schmuck! You were only concerned about him

so just let it go! Like I said, hopefully his money went to help the Katrina Survivors - at least we can think it did. :)

[hardrainfallin]

130. yeah, but that's why I feel like a schmuck...

for making him doubt it in the first place....

I sent him a "comforting" URL....

[Megahurtz]

22. It's called a "chargeback".

I would definitely call the credit card company.

[pitohui]

30. don't charge it back

this "raw story" piece is not credible

[Zhade]

110. What's your evidence that it's not credible? Because you say so?

Try harder, like, you know, proof.

I'm not saying this IS true, but you are saying it's not, so you need to provide something to back up your allegation.

[pitohui]

119. investigate a story or two where YOU have certain knowledge of events

i can't spoonfeed you my experience

i'm not a reporter that is not my job

investigate for yrself

you are going to be embarrassed that you defended this distorted story

but i can't convince you

do yr own homework, that's the only way to learn

[Zhade]

127. So, it's your OPINION that this is not credible, not fact.

Since the burden of proof is upon you, the one who made the allegation that it is not credible, and you can't offer up anything to defend your opinion, then it remains your opinion and not fact.

I'm not defending the story, by the way - just reminding you that the burden of proof is on you. "I can't do your homework" dodges notwithstanding.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

192. Admit it....you have nothing to back up your claims.

[Danieljay]

102. an informative link...perhaps it will ease your discomfort

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

[hardrainfallin]

128. thanks for that. I sent it to him....

we have a hell of a lot more serious problems on our hands (globally, nationally and locally) than worrying about what is a substantial donation, but in the greater scheme of things, ultimately CHUMP CHANGE....

Besides, most of our contributions go *directtly* to the people

[lala_rawraw]

203. How So?

Do tell, given that I know a great deal of sourcing on this article. I am curious how this single link is so informative. Do explain to us, less single source enlightened. Looking forward to your expose.

[expatriot]

9. Red Cross are "second responders" they can only move when

authorities give them the okay. They do not respond on their own initiative, they respond at the request of the first responders and the governmental authorities.

"...with the discovery that the Red Cross, mandated by its Code of Conduct to remain independent of government, is officially part of the Bush Administration's national security apparatus."

that's Bullshit, of course Red Cross is "at the table" with FEMA. It does not provide it's own security, it moves into an area at the rewest of the authorities. Now the incompetency of the "authorities" in this instance may demand a revision of that protocol for humanitarian reasons but to think that this makes it cronies of the Bush administration is just wrong. Yes, it's establishment. Yes, it's a huge bureacratic institution with all the normal problems of institutionalism but to demonize them when there are so many more deserving targets of demonization is just wrong-headed in my opinion.

as for funding. yes, if the red cross gets tons of donations for a high profile event and the indicident does not warrant all that money spent, then they will move funds raised during that crisis and move it into a general reserve.

[KoKo]

17. The Red Cross should have been allowed into those shelters with Food

Water and Porta Potties should have been airlifted in. Lots of people were getting in and out of NO's it turns out..yet those people were trapped there without any extra help.

[expatriot]

24. it is criminal that relief was not shipped into the city.

the only error the Red Cross is guilty of is having a protocol in which they act in participation with authorities on the ground. they move IN SUPPORT of the first resonders, they do not have the capability to serve as first responders and it is not in their statements of understanding with the authorities. Blame FEMA and the feds for not LETTING them in.

Did any other official relief organization set up a shelter in N.O.?

[pitohui]

47. expatriot has the right answer

the red cross is not its own army & its own security

it could not hack its way into the city contrary to fema & armed nat'l guards

[NYC]

85. And THAT is unfortunate.

Now that we know that Homeland Security's FEMA is in no rush to help people who are dehydrating, what good is the Red Cross if Homeland Security's FEMA prevents them from helping the people in need?

When the next disaster arises, should a person give to the Red Cross, or make the assumption that once again the federal government will sideline the Red Cross, and the victims will go without?

It makes donating your money to the Red Cross almost no better than donating your money to Homeland Security's FEMA, since Homeland Security's FEMA calls the shots.

[pitohui]

124. why are you deliberately distorting this?

red cross IS helping ppl, they are helping ppl right now

no, they can't get into areas aga. the will of fema & the nat'l guard

but in areas where they CAN help

they ARE helping

what are you doing?

one tiny example, red cross is providing housing for a friend of mine this very night thru their hotel program

i don't recall jesus saying that if you couldn't help everybody, you shouldn't help anybody

if you just don't want to give, FINE, DON'T GIVE

but don't sit here & try to convince other ppl not to give

red cross is not perfect but they're doing more than the damn naysayers are

[NYC]

149. You've made a lot of assumptions based on what little I've said.

Did I say the Red Cross was not helping people outside New Orleans? The people inside New Orleans desperately needed help. Homeland Security's FEMA prevented that help. It is Homeland Security that must be removed from this equation.

I would not convince people to give or not give. That is their choice. Most people make their own decisions. I hope they make those decisions based on their own experiences, rather than on the advice of others.

I realize you are desperately defending the Red Cross. That doesn't change the fact that Homeland Security's FEMA prevented them from helping the people inside New Orleans.

[WHAT]

193. right...

being in sync is equivalent to being irrelevant...as far as being effective goes.

Why?

I'm thinking the RC is a cash cow...

I wouldn't give to them...

[LiberalinNC]

10. This is why I stopped giving to the Red Cross!!!

After 9/11 and the mix up w/ them, I decided NOT to give to them any more.

[KoKo]

12. Thank God! Finally, someone is exposing the Red Cross!

I didn't want to say anything here, because so many people needed to do something, and there are many volunteers for the Red Cross who are decent, honorable people. But, After the Liddy Dole scandal with it and the way they acted on 9/11, I just couldn't give them money. I gave to a local group and will give more when I find organizations that really will give my puny money directly to the people in need.

[LisaM]

53. Tell me! What's the Liddy Dole scandal?

I don't like her and figured she turned the Red Cross into a crony type of operation, but details would be helpful. About four years ago a friend (well, an EX-friend) told me how Liddy "did a hell of a job with the Red Cross" which didn't sound the least bit credible, but I didn't have any details to fight back.

[pitohui]

259. it's like oh 1989

who cares what the liddy dole scandal is, it's decades gone

they are using it as an excuse because god forbid a brown person might get help

i am disgusted

[lateo]

13. No..no...no...Blanco turned them away didn't you hear?

(snark)

[expatriot]

18. Did anyone else set up a shelter in N.O.?

Salvation Army, Second Harvest, any other group that was on the scene?

[lateo]

27. Dunno...

[Megahurtz]

19. I knew this shit was going to happen.

:mad:

[wurzel]

20. Red Cross was once run by Elizibeth Dole. Told me all I needed to know.

[malaise]

37. Ditto

and it's no different in many other countries. After major floods in Guyana last year, people sent me email and told me to send money directly to alumni associations since the Red Cross was handing out donations to the party in power's supporters. Of course the Red Cross was headed by a party hack.

Too many civil society institutions have been captured by political interests. I don't give any of them my money.

[Coastie for Truth]

86. That could be misinterpreted - ARC was founded by the UU Church

That's the Unitarian Universalist Church - back during the Civil War. Your comment could be misinterpreted as akin to ""Red Cross was founded and once run by the Unitarians. Told me all I needed to know."

[OneBlueSky]

23. notice that all Red Cross ads ask you to donate . . .

"for Hurricane Katrina and other disasters" . . . they have no intention of using the hundreds of millions they're accumulating solely for Katrina . . . much like 9/11, they'll bankroll a lot of it for "later use" . . . and for paying their executives exorbitant salaries . . .

[expatriot]

31. do you know the breakdown of expenses?

The CEO of the Red Cross makes 450,000 a year as the CEO of an organization with an annnual revenue of 3.1 billion.

The CEO of Second Harvest gets 325,000 as the CEO of an organization with an annual revenue of 490 million.

Only 5% of Red Cross's budget is spent on "administrative expenses" and 4% on fundraising with the rest going to program expenses.

All this according to Charity Navigator, charitynavigator.org

Of course they are not going to gaurantee that every dollar raised in a certain time period is going to go to as certain event. But the more money they raise in a certain time period will allow them to spend more money in support of the immediate disaster while allowing them to be prepared for the next one.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

188. Right. LOL!!

[kostya]

216. Quit harping this point about CEO salaries, it's blatantly fallacious

and makes you look a fool. We could do the same thing with the pay of the janitor at their respective main offices and it wouldn't mean a thing. Charity Navigator is just reporting what is fed to them, they are not auditors. Anyone can cook the books to say what they want. The proof is in the pudding folks. ARC is spending a fraction of what they take in on the actual people needing help. - K

[anitar1]

92. Exactly right. And sickening. n/t

[Danieljay]

150. that is such crap...

You dont know what you are talking about.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

189. You've offered nothing in reply but empty responses.

[TwilightZone]

153. Yeah, hoarding money. That must be why they're running a $100M deficit.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

And paying exorbitant salaries. That must be why their admin expenses are so "high" at 5.4%. (Anything below 15% is good, according to the link above).

Would you prefer that they spend everything in their bankroll on Katrina and have nothing available for any other disaster?

They handle 70,000 disasters a year. I think it would be rather difficult to separately track funding for each of the 70,000.

[merwin]

25. Link?

[Lochloosa]

29. Here you go

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Investigation_finds_Red_Cross_agreed_to_withhold_New_Orleans_aid_operates_in_tandem_with_Home_0913.html

[ShockediSay]

28. My favorite reliable charity was always the Salvation Army.

When they gave back a considerable chunk of change to its donor on the basis of moral reservations (he won a ton in the power ball lottery) I got the feeling these are not people who will siphon funds, or misappropriate, or go gunning for pork.

Plus they always seemed to be giving true aid and assistance to those in dire straights in those urban areas I've lived.

This is not a pitch. Maybe the point here is know your donee charity.

[fudge stripe cookays]

33. Yeah...

forget that whole "we hate gays" thing. Not important at all.

FSC

[malaise]

40. The Salvation Army is the only religious

institution that gets money from me.

[Zhade]

120. You give money to a homophobic religious charity?

Surely there's got to be a religious charity out there that doesn't mix in misinterpreted scripture that allows people to hate GLBT folk with their charity work!

I mean, there are many liberal Christians who embrace GLBTers as part of their "family of humanity" and understand that people are born as they are, so there MUST be non-homophobic religious charities out there that these liberal Christians donate to in place of a group like the SA, right?

I'm hoping so, anyway.

[malaise]

158. The truth is

that I don't know anything about them except that they do look after people during disasters. Now I'll have to do some homework.
Edit - sp.

[Zhade]

174. An imminently reasonable approach.

Let us know what you find!

[Lindacooks]

56. They're too homophobic. I avoid them, because if that's their

policy on gays, they're rotten.

[gauguin57]

34. Donate to the Mennonite Disaster Service instead. They do good work,

and they don't force their religion on anyone. They feel it is their duty as Christians to help people and touch their lives.

All my friends donate to disaster relief through them (tsunami, etc.) They had already done their assessment of the Katrina region and had teams set up to go there before FEMA could even find New Orleans on a map, I think.

Here's their Web site.

http://www.mds.mennonite.net/

And there's always Habitat for Humanity.

[Mist]

35. Ever since I found out years ago that over 90% of their funds

were devoted to "administrative costs," I've refused to give them one fucking dime.

[expatriot]

39. No... that is bullshit. only 5% go to "administrative"

4% to fundraising, 91% to program services.

the CEO is only paid 450K per year

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

Why spread lies?

[progressivebydesign]

48. Oh. the CEO ONLY makes 450k per year. Poor little CEO.

How can he/she feed their families on that pittance? Oh.. the humanity!!!

[expatriot]

176. It's not about how much she is paid, it is about getting someone with

the skills to run a major non-profit with 3.1 billion in annual revenue. Now before you bring up Dole, she was never the CEO of the American Red Cross, only the President (a figure head PR role)

[Mist]

182. Heard it over 20 years ago from boyfriend who's father served

on the board of Red Cross in NY. Also from a sociology professor who had done research on charities. Maybe they've improved since then, but I've still never felt like giving them any money. Huge CEO salaries seem inappropriate for a charity.

[caledesi]

61. And the "head" of the RC (like Liddy Dole) are paid $500,000!

For a charity????

[Danieljay]

71. that is crap. Period. Not true. I work for the Red Cross. n/t

[TheWatcher]

140. So you say.

You don't seem to be able to say much of anything else.

Like FACTS that REFUTE this story.

[Zhade]

143. You do realize your say-so is not worth much, right?

It's not that I'm calling you a liar - I'm not - but your anecdotal evidence doesn't really do a thing to discount the story.

Linking to the site you have been is an example of evidence. Saying "I work there" - even if true! - does nothing to establish your case.

[TwilightZone]

147. Frankly, his "say-so" is worth as much as anyone else's.

And, if he is who he say he is, his "say-so" is worth more than the other self-appointed experts in this thread.

There are plenty of other people in this thread who are - without a doubt - spouting completely false "facts" that they "heard" somewhere, yet the person being attacked with the most vehemence is someone who very well could be working for the RC.

Nice.

[Zhade]

154. That's just it, though - all we have is his say-so.

That's not evidence, anymore than someone saying "the Red Cross steals from babies" would be evidence - unless they actually presented something concrete aside from anecdotal evidence.

His say-so is no more credible than anyone else's. Evidence is what matters in this case, and anecdotal claims are not evidence.

That's all I'm saying.

[TwilightZone]

159. If you read other postings by the same person elsewhere in this thread,

it's pretty obvious that he works for the RC.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1777255&mesg_id=1777847

What do you want? A photo ID?

If you're going to question the postings of everyone on this board who hasn't supplied ironclad credentials backing up what they claim to be, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. Good luck with that.

[Zhade]

160. Well, that post does lend credibility to his claim.

So it may be that he works for them - as I said elsewhere, I am not and was not calling him a liar.

But even so, anecdotal evidence that "my company does ____" can really be accepted only as corroborating evidence, not primary evidence.

At any rate, he is not top-level, clearly, and so would not necessarily have information of possible corruption - which I again stress I do not know has happened.

My point was about anecdotal evidence. I think it's been made.

[TwilightZone]

80. Sorry, but that's grossly inaccurate. 91% of the funds go to programs

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

[Rainscents]

36. Can someone please get hold of Top managements email address?

We need to flame away with emails!!!

[democrank]

38. If Red Cross management

was so loving and giving, they`d work for much less so that more funds could go directly to people in need. Just another example of Golden Bloat.

[expatriot]

43. It has annual revenue of 3.1 bil and the CEO makes 450K

compare that to a private company with an annual revenue of 3.1 billion.
about 0.01% of revenue.

The CEO of Second Harvest, with an annual revenue of 400 million makes 325K, 0.06% of revenue


back your charges up with facts.


charitynavigator.org

[WHAT]

194. so, a ceo of a "charity" should get a "cut"?...

like a telephone hustler?...

as an added incentive...maybe someone can ring the bell at 1 billion?...or a front page headline?!

this feels degrading to the good people who actively chose to help.

such a diversion of good intentions is nothing but wrong...

and the direct intervention of caring people was thwarted, and by consensus/action, condoned by the RC...

sorry, sorry...

[kostya]

215. Your argument is a non-sequitur. It says nothing about

the total administrative costs. You can't just cite the salary of the CEO, you need to look at all the costs. Anyway, it's enough for me that the ARC and other organizations simply use disasters to fill their coffers for other so-called "programs" and mislead donors into thinking their money is going directly to the current relief effort.

- K

[catmandu57]

41. Go directly to the source

http://Katrina.louisiana.gov/donate.htm It made more sense going here.

[Roland99]

44. I see no one bothered to reply to the comment I posted there:

This part is key, imo:

"The Associated Press reported Sept. 8 that Col. Jay Mayeaux, deputy director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security asked the Red Cross not to enter the city at least for the first 24 hours after the storm in order to have to time to "set up a feeding station to feed a large number of people."


Did Col. Mayeaux act of his own accord or was he under orders or recommendations from FEMA?

There are still some unknowns in this situation.

[progressivebydesign]

49. Did they ever set up a feeding station? n/t

[Roland99]

51. Not sure. Doesn't matter. The point being, Col. Mayeaux gave the order.

Why? Did he get an order from the Feds? An order from the Gov.? Acting on his own?

[Coastie for Truth]

67. Doesn't matter

Red Cross and Salvation Army are not "First Responders" -- they have less rights and power and "protections" then even Volunteer Fire Department "Traffic Police"

If a state official says "Don't go in" - you are a trespasser, and you void your "Disaster Workers' Insurance" (Like Worker's Comp and Life Insurance" for injury or death "while acting within the scope of authority") and are subject to arrest for Defiant Trespass/Criminal Trespass.

You are a "Humanitarian Guest" of the sovereign Period.

[Roland99]

72. It does matter who gave the order, though.

Whoever kept the Red Cross out is responsible for the deaths of hundreds.

Was it Col. Mayeaux? Gov. Blanco? FEMA?

[Coastie for Truth]

78. That's so far above my level.

I just sit and wait -- like I did last Wednesday for the plane load that never came.

[Career Prole]

46. They did their level best

to get NASDAQ back up and running as soon as possible!

[krkaufman]

148. What the hell is a non-profit like the Red Cross doing...

... opening up the NASDAQ?!?!

[Danieljay]

161. interesting question..however...perhaps being honored for mobilizing the

largest Red Cross disaster response in history.

[krkaufman]

164. Ah, true.

I didn't check the date in the photo caption. Thanks.

[Career Prole]

165. Some might call it an honor.

On September 8th perhaps her ass belonged in the driver's seat at the ARC instead of being "honored", however.
If, as some would have it, it is indeed impossible to "play the blame game" and effect a proper recovery at the same time then maybe the "honors" should wait, eh? :eyes:

[Danieljay]

172. hmmm, well, then perhaps they were being honored for

Their contribution to the Tsunami effort or one of the other hundreds of disasters we respond to here and abroad.

[Zhade]

175. I think CP's point may be...

...that the immediate needs of the trapped and starving people of NO should have taken precedence over NASDAQ, honors or no.

If that wasn't CP's point, it sure as heck is mine.

[Danieljay]

223. we weren't ALLOWED into NO...lets not forget about the 375 shelters

That ARE in the area, or the 2 million overnight for Katrina victims in the 865 shelters that we DID set up.

I understand your point, I really do. That being said, its not the directors job to set up those shelters. The Red Cross is more than just the director. She no more represents the entire Red Cross than BUSH does the entire country.

[Zhade]

226. Which is why I said, for example, that no one is blaming you.

I'm glad you understand my point - I find it quite odd that time was wasted on NASDAQ when people were drowning and starving to death.

The time could have been better spent trying to get into NO any way the RC could.

[Danieljay]

230. I was just talking to a 14 year veteran disaster responder over lunch

who is training volunteers to go to the disaster area and he said flat out "when the guys with guns say you can't go in, you don't go in". He said that FEMA is totally responsible for this.

[Zhade]

231. So they could have spent their time lobbying frenetically to get in...

...rather than wasting precious arm-twisting time on NASDAQ.

I'm not criticizing the rank-and-file, but the top-levelers of the ARC shouldn't have even thought about NASDAQ, IMHO.

[Danieljay]

236. and whose donated funds do you want to use to pay political lobbyists

for the Red Cross? Again, that gets into the mission of trying to remain neutral politically. I completely get ya...but can you not see the bind we are in here, politically? while staying true to our mission of neutrality?

We run completely on individual and corporate donations. Period. When the guys with guns tell us we can't go in, we don't go in. I can assure you, this is literally what happened. We were there, ready.

[Zhade]

239. You misunderstand me.

When I say "lobby", I'm not talking about hiring political lobbyists. I'm talking about spending all day on the phone, calling press conferences to call attention to FEMA not letting people in, doing whatever it takes to convince the administration to let the ARC do their job.

Dealing with NASDAQ while people are dying just doesn't sit well with me.

[Career Prole]

241. I thank you.

You are correct.
The proper position for the director would have been "Sorry, I've got a critical relief organization to run and too much time has already been wasted. Perhaps another time."

[Zhade]

242. Glad I didn't misunderstand you.

Clearly, we agree!

[Career Prole]

166. Rescuing the only thing that really matters to the * administration. n/t

[Columbia]

265. It's called fundraising.

[Kweli4Real]

50. Don't judge too quickly...

I've been in touch with a friend living just on the outskirts of New Orleans. She has lost everything. But she has told me that the Red Cross was the only organization helping out. It has brought her food and water on a daily basis since the day after the hurricane.

[defiant1]

54. Screw the Red Cross....

:puke:

[Double T]

55. politics and greed as usual.......

I guess there isn't anything that has not been contaminated by the neocons, including the red cross

[Danieljay]

57. knee jerkers beware of myths and stories..

I work for the American Red Cross and there is so much BS here and people have no idea of the real facts.

[lala_rawraw]

206. Again

Libel, given your "authority" on the subject matter. I suggest you provide factual corrections or simply post your comments as opinions, not as an "expert." You realize the difference do you not?

So, please feel free to email the editor with factual corrections and feel free to post them also where you want to. The rest is simply your opinion and misdirected defensiveness.

You are not being attacked. You are also not in the position, unless we can assume you are the head of FEMA or in that upper sphere, to provide burden of proof. Your one link acts as a single source that does not account for specifics. Your one link also does not account for the many and multiple sources on this story.

Facts please or an apology. Nothing more needs to be said. I must say that what you do is admirable and I have no issue with you. But your attacks on the writer, the publication, and the story are extremely simple, vague, and overly authoritative. Doing something admirable does not make one an expert and it does not give one license to smear others, also doing admirable work.

[Coastie for Truth]

64. "Left versus Liberal" Dichotomy

There is so much "Self Hating, Question Everything, Anarcho-Left" versus "Geriatric Liberal" bull crap in this thread -- that I am about to throw up.

All of you critics --- what the diddly have you done?????????/

I am a Geriatric Liberal -- not a Self Hating, Question Everything, Anarcho-Leftie.

[Zhade]

136. Again, how are you determining this mythological self-hatred?

And where's the Anarcho-left? I haven't seen a single post from such a group.

[redqueen]

228. That's the second time I've seen the term

"Self-hating leftie"

Makes me suspicious... I've never heard that term before I read this thread.

Are you familiar with that, or any of the other terms used in the post you responded to?

[Zhade]

243. I'm not suspicious, I just think the poster is a bit self-righteous.

S/he's a "liberal", not a "leftie" - apparently being on the left (which liberals are, of course) is a bad thing to that poster.

[Eurobabe]

70. I donated to the Unitarian Relief Fund

no United Way or Red Cross here, sorry.

[Coastie for Truth]

77. The American Red Cross was

founded by the Unitarian Church ---- and the local Unitarian Universalist Church collects for the Red Cross ---- and much of the local volunteer leadership of the Red Cross is Unitarian Universalist Community.

Who do you think gave me my first copy of Forrest Church's books?

[Coastie for Truth]

74. ALL OF YOU WELL MEANING LEFTIES

OKAY!

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET PAST THE STATE POLICE AND THE NATIONAL GUARD -- WITH A "I AM A LEFTIE" T-SHIRT AND AN "IMPEACH W" BUMPER STICKER TO YOU GET.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO USE FOR THE MASS FEEDING --- THE SALVATION ARMY (EVANGELICALS) OR THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST BROTHERHOOD KITCHEN TRAILERS (MORE EVANGELICAL THEN THE SALVATION ARMY)

AND THE MASS HOUSING -- YOUR OWN TIMBERLAKES SLEEPING BAG?

AND RELOCATING -- YOUR PAD?

AND THE DEBIT CARD -- HOW ABOUT YOUR CREDIT CARD?

GET FRIGGIN' REAL.

PLUS THE RED CROSS PEOPLE ARE NOT COPS OR FIRE FIGHTERS OR EMS OR NATIONAL GUARD -- THEY ARE NOT EVEN VOLUNTEER FIRE FIGHTERS OR VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE CORPS MEMBERS ---- THEY ARE INVITED HUMANITARIAN GUEST OF THE SOVEREIGN.

GET IT -- INVITED HUMANITARIAN GUESTS OF THE SOVEREIGN

[K-W]

76. Can you stop taking this as an opportunity to smear 'lefties'

Why dont you address the people critisizing the Red Cross instead of calling them lefties for whatever reason you were inspired to jump to that conclusion.

[pitohui]

79. thank you coastie for truth

don't these naysayers have anything more useful to do

those who never do anything...never make any mistakes

[bertha katzenengel]

95. Stop shouting. And stop smearing Southern Baptists.

"Southern Baptist" does not automatically equal "listen to my sermon, THEN you can have a sandwich." :eyes:

[Coastie for Truth]

108. I know - I have worked with them.

At least I have worked with them at mass disasters.

[OzarkDem]

98. Passing the buck?

So who do you blame for not getting needed assistanc to these people?

[Coastie for Truth]

109. Bush, Chertoff, Brown. N/T

[WHAT]

196. Are you being facetious or manipulative...

in invoking the sovereign? wrt FEMA?

Is it the PRIVILEGE of the "sovereign" to obfuscate or manipulate?

I don't get your point...

[Coastie for Truth]

197. Listen

FLAME ON
I have been out there with Non English speaking and ESL families at 2 AM when the dude down the hall cooking meth or coke started a fire - and these innocent people are suddenly homeless. I have been out there in the friggin rain on a cell phone getting them three days of housing --- and getting a Red Cross debit card "activated."

I have been in a Mass Shelter with a bunch of Non English speaking and ESL families because their landlord - getting rich on Section VIII money - didn't have a friggin smoke detector system working -- and the sprinklers were screwed up -- and 80 innocent and confused and bewildered families are now suddenly homeless.

I have been out there at 2 AM when some wise butt kid threw friggin cherry bombs under the cars in a car port - and a gas tank exploded -- and three families suddenly found themselves homeless. And, I have been out there in the friggin cold rain on a cell phone getting them three days of housing --- and getting a Red Cross debit card "activated."

So don't you call me "facetious or manipulative".

The sovereign - as a cop or a national guardsman or a mayor or a governor or a FEMA director can say "Don't cross this line" - and if you do you are "Trespasser" - most likely "Defiant Trespass" ("Criminal Trespass").

---The man with the badge calls the shots and makes the arrests.---

---So what is a well meaning, idealistic volunteer to do?

You asked "Is it the PRIVILEGE of the "sovereign" to obfuscate or manipulate?" -- well I usually don't have an American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer with me - and the Red Cross volunteers in Jefferson Parish LA on the Orleans Parish line didn't have any American Civil Liberties Union Lawyers with them --- so under those circumstances it is the PRIVILEGE of the "sovereign" to "obfuscate and manipulate." What the devil do you think George Bush and Dick Cheney and Karl Rove and Michael Brown have been doing - leveling? They have been "obfuscating" and "manipulating."

And if anyone sincerely believes that it was a Red Cross decision to stay out of Orleans Parish -- then they have been "manipulated" like the people in Thomas Frank's book (What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America) just like the Red Cross was ordered to stay out of Orleans Parish by "The Man."

I don't who or which "Man" it was. That is irrelevant. It will come out in the "hot debrief".

That's the way it is on the street when you don't have your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer with you.

My point is very simple. And if you don't get it let me spell it out for you.

1. The policeman, sheriff, deputy sheriff, state trooper, national guardsman, or soldier on the street in front of, blocking your entry, is "The Man."

2. "The Man" speaks for an on behalf of the Sovereign (Mayor, County Supervisor, Governor, FEMA Director, or President).

3. And if you cross the line, "The Man" will throw you in jail.

4. Maybe your your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer will get you out tomorrow or next day or next week -- but you haven't delivered any aid or assistance.

5. Maybe you are morally, legally, ethically, and spiritually right. But you are in jail until your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer gets you out.

(I am not mocking the ACLU - I have been a dues paying member for 37 years).

FLAME OFF

[WHAT]

200. I was reacting to a perceived "mincing of words", not you...

personally.

I apologize if I have affronted you. I don't know you, but from the preceding post, I think you have good intentions and you try to act accordingly.

I am just dismayed at the flummoxed New Orleans effort where there are so many ernest efforts of help derailed by incompetence? or something.

I do perceive the RC as one of the "gamers" but not the ernest people who subscribe to that in order to help.

I do think if one person is in jail unjustly, we all are.

This is so immensely wrong, I don't know what to make of it...

[Coastie for Truth]

210. Grow up

I do perceive the RC as one of the "gamers" but not the ernest people who subscribe to that in order to help.

Everybody is a "gamer" - you have to be a "gamer" to survive and you even have to be a "gamer" to accomplish good.

[WHAT]

218. gaming WAS the problem in NOLA...

it interfered with organization and execution of aid. It resulted in hundreds of people suffering and then dying.

I think there is a type of art to governance that allows for "gaming" of disparate or harmonious groups in order to achieve an humanitarian end. This didn't happen in New Orleans...too many ineffectual people with no one asserting responsibility and leadership...leading to more "gaming".

New Orleans was ugly!

[bear425]

84. I wish I'd know this before I donated $50

Where is the best place to donate further? Any suggestion? TIA

[Danieljay]

90. here's a suggestion...dont believe everything you read....look here

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3277.htm

[bear425]

96. Ok, thanks for the informative link

The snarky way it was delivered I could have done without. :)

[Danieljay]

99. my apologies if that seemed "smarky", I'm simply tired of those who don't

know what they are talking about constantly bashing the Red Cross on these boards. Had it not been for Red Cross, this situation would have been a lot more effed up than it was.

[bear425]

111. apology accepted. I understand your frustration. My comment

was merely acknowledging information that the OP provided. And, I asked for other suggestions for further donation.

Actually, when this first happened, I tried to donate through my local news station because they promised that 100% would go to Katrina relief. Unfortunately, I could never get through. I gave up and decided to go with the Red Cross.

[OzarkDem]

100. Charity Navigator doesn't tell everything

They're a good tool for seeing how funds are raised and distributed, but they're not an auditing firm, and they'll be the first to tell you.

It also doesn't show detail of how programs are constructed, operated, etc. A badly run program that doesn't provide needed benefits to those needing help doesn't show up in a report like this.

Red Cross needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom. Its just another multibillion dollar agency that is used as a GOP slush fund.

[TheWatcher]

145. And that is the problem

Simply linking to a Site like this and screaming "See?!!! See?!!!!" is silly. Without providing the further details you describe is useless and it proves nothing.

Try again Danieljay.

[Coastie for Truth]

105. Jennifer Van Bergen has an interesting world view

Jennifer Van Bergen (the author of the article) has an interesting world view, an interesting paper trail, and an interesting biography.

1. The Twilight of Democracy: The Bush Plan for America
2. The Patriot Act and US Constitution
3. America's Parallel Legal Systems

To consider oneself a "Liberal" (vice a "Leftie" in the "Liberal versus Left Dichotomy" sense) one should know the difference between reporting and editorializing, between an advocacy position and statements of fact, and how to analyze positions.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

125. I am a life long Dem

only voted GOP once -against an anti-transit Dem.
I have held Precinct level Dem party office, belonged to Progressive Dem Clubs every place I lived, and managed a Dem Assembly man's local "constituent service" office.

Who elected you keeper of the Dem Party Conscience and chair of the Credentials Committee.

[Zhade]

142. So now you're attacking the messenger instead of the message?

And you think this will increase your credibility HOW?

I thought only conservatives attacked the messenger - at least, that's what I see from them every day.

I'm guessing you'd prefer not to be associated with conservatives, so I suggest you stop adopting their tactics.

[Coastie for Truth]

146. No - I said read critically

analyze sources, contrast and compare, look for biases and prejudices, know the differences between fact and opinion -- just like my World History 101 Professor taught me.

I don't even read a scientific journal on electrocatalysis without thinking "where is the writing coming from, what are the writer's biases and prejudices?" --- and that's in physical chemistry.

By the way, Congratulations, I understand that Dr. Dean named you Chairman of the Democratic Party Credentials Committee

[Zhade]

152. Yeah, it's a great honor!

No, seriously, you were attacking the messenger.

[Coastie for Truth]

199. No-

I was just asking the messenger to prove their credibility.

I have sat on juries - and witnesses are always cross-examined to prove their credibility.

And I don't believe everything I read unless it's corroborated or subject to corroboration.

[Zhade]

208. Your last line makes sense.

Next time, go with that, instead of questioning the integrity of the messenger. If the messenger is wrong, you'll know soon enough, and if s/he is right, you won't have needlessy hinted darkly about the credentials of a known progressive source.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

209. Bravo!

I too have asked them to provide evidence that Raw Story is lacking credibility.

So far, they have offered nothing but transparent dodges and laughably weak smear attempts.

I salute your work, and that of your fellows.

[Coastie for Truth]

211. I am quite capable of handling complexity

I write for several technical journals, including "Chemical Engineering Progress" and "Transactions of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. You will find an occasional column (energy issues, transit issues) in the San Francisco Chronicle and the San Jose Mercury.

And I am appalled at your criticism for advocacy of the traditional LIBERAL position of

"To consider oneself a "Liberal" (vice a "Leftie" in the "Liberal versus Left Dichotomy" sense) one should know the difference between reporting and editorializing, between an advocacy position and statements of fact, and how to analyze positions."

[lala_rawraw]

213. wow, my post was deleted for some reason...

Even though your original post was not. Odd

As for the above, seems to me you are confusing what I wrote with what you wrote and given that my original post is missing, this conversation is now a bit off kilter.

[Coastie for Truth]

217. I went to the trouble of reading some of your appends on various fora

and you have a grasp of things -- but many here are missing the really big story. Rove is using and abusing the Red Cross to divert attention from his own nefarious work.

First, listen to Ed Schultz on Jones Network (Carried with AAR) and Ray Taliafero on San Francisco's KGO-810 (audio streaming on the web). There is another scandal, much bigger then this scandal, that is breaking with the politicization of FEMA --

These newly homeless people are being moved by FEMA to specific cities and Congressional Districts like chess pieces. This is to enhance Republican control of Congress to fix the 2008 electon and to re-elect GOP Governors in Battle Ground states. It is as blatant as DeLay's gerrymandering in Texas.

And the Rove controlled FEMA is going to try to blame everybody

-the Red Cross
-the cities that were supposed to receive them,
-the Orleans Parish and Louisiana State governments.

Everybody gets blames but Rove and the latest Rove plan - to cement political hegemony by moving people to Districts where they can't upset the GOP control in Congress or the GOP Electoral College Vote - or Gubernatorial vote.

Ed Schultz and Ray Taliafero and San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsome blew the whistle on this scam and have been on it for a week.

-- but it's still going on.

Blaming the Red Cross?

Read "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America" by Thomas Frank.

This is the Rove Big Lie - Red Cross, Max Cleland, Swift Boat Veterans, Paul O'Neill, Valerie Plame, .........

This political manipulation of relocation destinations has been going on since 9/7 --- and only Ed Schultz and Ray Taliafero and SF Mayor Gavin Newsome and the San Francisco Bay Area political junkies and policy wonks see it.

This whole thread shows Rove's success.

[lala_rawraw]

220. I see your point, but while it is possible

It is not what I am finding. Yes, there is a big story here, but it is not Rove, who cannot spin this no matter what he does. In a chess game, the error made here was fatal, there is no reclaiming control of the center nor is there any way to move forward - the error simply leaves them to spin until one by one the pieces fall, those left that is.

Actually, this whole thread shows in part the bigger story of this whole thing, which I am still looking into (in between jaunts to the ER). I tend to agree when i see the fingerprints of the fat-frat thug and Nixon fluff-boy, but in this case, the thread pulled is unraveling the entire sweater.

So while I see your logic, I respectfully disagree in terms of strategy and tactics. I have studied Rove for years and like any good strategist, he is a chess fan. If you study him, then create a profile, you can predict his moves with almost absolute clarity because his game has not changed in thirty years. It is not that he is a good player, he simply has no opponent and the board is stacked to his advantage. But if you remove those barriers, you will see a tepid thinker with an astonishing memory and absolute lack of emotional discipline.

This is not Rove's agenda, in fact, this should be what Rove deflects to the local level from - if I were on their strategy team.

Glad you approve of my grasp of things. DU is my venting xanadu, but if happens that I sometimes post rational comments here, well even better. I just like kicking up my font with my pals here:)

[bertha katzenengel]

97. "Raw Story has found" -- as much as I appreciate what the internet

has done for reporting not hampered by the restraints placed on MSM, I think I will wait for a different source or seventeen.

[pitohui]

126. thank you another voice for sanity EOM

.

[lala_rawraw]

207. Good idea...

multiple sources of information are important.

[Nashvilliberal]

101. THANK YOU RED CROSS AND THOSE WHO GAVE!!!!

Six members of my family (including three seniors) evacuated the New Orleans area on Sunday, Aug 28th, and have been living with me here in Nashville since then. My Dad is self employed in New Orleans, and probably will not have work for three to four months. We spent several hundred dollars on gas last week to drive home for three days to check the damage to their home (which was, thankfully, minimal). My sister-in-law works for Plaquemines Parish (half of which was washed away...there's nothing left to rebuild), and didn't receive her last paycheck, and had very few of my nine year old niece's clothes (she's enrolled in school for the time being here in Nashville and had to buy new clothes since she wears uniforms in New Orleans).

We were able to go to the Red Cross on Saturday, and within two hours they were given $320 per person in a debit card which was activated within a few hours. The Red Cross center was organized, provided snacks and drinks, air conditioned tents, and treated everyone kindly and respectfully. I've probably spent fifteen frustrating hours on the phone trying to nurse my parent's FEMA application through the system (the $2000 displacement grant). My family has been very fortunate never to have had to ask for assistance before, and we are very grateful that the volunteers of the Red Cross were there to help.

Thanks to all of you who gave. It does reach those who need it, and it's appreciated more than you know.

[pitohui]

129. good to hear & i'll second that thank you

i have peeps being helped by red cross also

they really are doing a huge, huge, huge job

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

190. Well, I'm glad you got help....

...lots of people got nothing but a watery grave.

[jilln]

117. Could it be they have a point?

That going in at first would have kept people from leaving?

How come they were not allowed in, but celebreties like Harry Connick and Matthew McConaughey were, and were rescuing people themselves...

When the first refugees started arriving in my city, I went to the arena (their Web site and phone messages were useless). Once there, I was told to go to ANOTHER office across town to fill out an application, then TAKE A CLASS and undergo a criminal background check.

Wtf? I just wanted to help sort clothes or food for a few days...

I think it is clear though that they are doing a good job of taking care of people outside the affected areas.

[mistertrickster]

122. If the Red Cross is not supposed be "politicized," why was Elizabeth

Dole (wife of Bush shill Bob Dole) the director?

I think they do a lot of good, but some of the top management decisions have been questionable, as this article shows.

[applegrove]

132. There is some sort of institutional change in expectations. Organizations

such as the red cross have always made money when humanitarian crisis erupts and then used what was left over to other programs. By forcing them to spend every last cent on Katrina there will indeed be some waste.

This seems to be like a tax revolt. Where people get outraged at how their money is spent - not on exactly the humanitarian cause they sent the money in for 5% of the time. Seems to me to be like practice for people who want their taxes cut.

The moral outrage that your pennies are not being used for exactly what you said. It is hypocritical. Cause nobody voted for Halliburton to get money.

[americanstranger]

137. I did a benefit for the Station Family Fund a couple of years ago.

For the people who died in the Station club fire in Warwick, RI.

The guy who runs the Family Fund told me that thr Red Cross raised 2 million bucks - and then kept half of it, claiming 'administrative costs.'

I'll find another charity to donate to. I did hear about a fund where musicians can donate instruments for NOLA musicians who lost theirs in the flood. I'm doing that.

-as

[kostya]

214. americanstranger: thanks for some real-life corroboration

about how the ARC operates. - K

[superconnected]

141. On tv right now some guy is being interviewed

nope this isn't the euthanization nursing home.

[AbbyR]

144. I stopped giving to the Red Cross

after reading Robert Massie's book about his son, who had hemophilia. The Red Cross treated the family very badly, requiring them to do blood drives and be on hand for photo ops before they would provide blood, which was not, by the way, provided at no cost to the family.

I had my impression confirmed not too long ago when the Red Cross held blood drives at a small town I know for a local hospital. The hospital eventually changed to another company because of the rudeness and lack of cooperation of the Red Cross.

Also, they would not send representatives to a local Katrina victims' shelter, requiring the victims, many of whom had no cars, to travel 100 miles round trip to sign up for help.

Having said all of that, I have a family member who has worked for the Red Cross as a dedicated volunteer for many years, and I know how much she cares and how hard she has worked.

So I'm torn, but I'd rather give my donations when I can see how they are used.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

151. And to think I waited till everyone from Howard Dean to Kerry to

Kennedy to Wes Clark said the Red Cross was good.

I only waited about a day, but this is disgusting.

How much worse does it get?

Much worse, if the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth comes to light regarding this band of rethuglicans.

Fortunately for the rest of my contribution, I gave to a non Red Cross affiliated donation center with clothing and other things the Katrina survivors here were said to be in need of.

[jbnow]

156. So maybe they were kept from going in

to affected areas...I don't know how, who, why food and water were not provided. The Red Cross isn't to blame. I know there re many hard and dedicated workers.

But I feel let down that they didn't talk loudly about being kept out, that they had food and water and needed it taken to the people who couldn't get out. Perhaps the outcry in response would have sped up the response. They aren't to blame if kept out, but it hurt that they weren't there, that no one was.

I give now to a local place that is setting up homes for evacuees here. Obviously money is still going to the Red Cross from millions of people. That's good. They are doing so much to help people in some places and there is so much to do. It is not just the poor trapped people we saw. You didn't have to be rich to have a car and the funds to get out, the middle class sure needs help without their home or jobs.

I just can't get over the people left without food and water.

btw, I don't think they should have to spend all the money they get on one crisis when there are mass donations. Katrina relief will go on and on and take up much money. But 9/11 was shorter lived...and so much money was given. Should they make up things to spend it on? Let some surplus sit gaining interest for a good cause...

[Danieljay]

224. the fact they didn't talk loudly about being kept out is keeping with the

mission of the Red Cross.

Thank you for the kind words and understanding of the difficulty of the Red Cross to fulfill its mission when facing government obstacles while trying to maintain accountability of funds and services in disasters.

We as employees are constantly being asked to keep our political opinions to ourselves, both on the left and the right. Its VERY hard to do sometimes. Its very important, as you can see by the accusations made about the Red Cross here, that we appear to be neutral and not engage in political battles that would prevent us from fulfilling our mission.

The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies.

The American Red Cross functions independently of the government but works closely with government agencies, such as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), during times of major crises. It is responsible for giving aid to members of the U.S. Armed Forces and to disaster victims at home and abroad. It does this through services that are consistent with its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement allowing the Red Cross to stay neutral and impartial.

[CAcyclist]

157. RawStory Ought To Check The Humane Society, Too nt

[damntexdem]

163. NO too unsafe for the Red Cross to enter.

Too politically unsafe, that is.

I'll donate to the Red Cross, all right, because they take blood donations. And that's just what type of donation they'll get from me.

No oil, though. ;-)

[donheld]

167. How much angrier can a man get?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[calico1]

170. I learned my lesson with 9/11. I am glad

I did not donate this time to them. Its too bad that they were "the" place to donate to for a lot of groups raising money.

[pitohui]

258. what a hero

you are so glad you did not donate

what a heart

some of us have lost everything

my friend lost his life

but what is more important -- that you have found a justification so you don't have to give a penny

for shame

how do you sleep

[Carolab]

179. This is why I did NOT give to the Red Cross. n/t

[WCGreen]

195. United Way, in many cities, is just as bad....

part of the corpotate elite....

Withholding support for newer less established charitble causes....

Large salaries for executives.....

[ladylibertee]

198. darn.. I wish I knew this before I donated. I thought they were the "ONLY"

organization I could trust.So,Blanco's LA Fund you say? I will start giving to them.Now, can we trust Blanco? I sure hope so.

[Supersedeas]

212. Too unsafe...yet this Admin gets high marks for security?

[SomewhereOutThere424]

219. God WTF is wrong with DUers today?

"OMG we should do absolutely nothing because we heard a story about mishandling funds!"

That's the bush mentality for not helping NO for christ's sake, 'they're just black looters who do bad things let's not help them!'.

I don't donate money to the red cross, and personally, I'm sure there are volunteer red cross workers who would agree not to. However: to knock the orginiziation as a whole knocks not just the corporate CEOs of the red cross but the volunteers as well and it's just SICK that people would think to do that at a time like this.

Wallowing in your own paranoia...and making volunteers and animals suffer for it. The purpose of DU is lost.

[Danieljay]

222. Thank you...Here are few things we HAVE done since the disaster...

What about the hundreds of other shelters in the area that we DID staff? What about the nearly 2 million overnight stays in 895 shelters across 24 states and the District of Columbia? Just yesterday the Red Cross housed more than 61,600 survivors in 327 shelters.

What about the Nearly 92,000 Red Cross workers (staff and volunteers) from all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands have responded to Katrina. And how bout the 74,000 people we have trained SINCE the disaster in specialized disaster relief skills?

What about the 8.4 million hot meals and more than 6.6 million snacks to survivors of Hurricane Katrina? Just yesterday (tuesday the 13th, we served more than 365,000 meals.

What about the financial assistance (no it is not required to be paid back) to upwards of three quarters of a million survivors dispersed across the nation in vouchers and cash?

Our local relief effort in Portland Oregon statistics as of today are as follows:


125 cases opened
$103,000 of direct assistance provided to displaced persons
1,108 new volunteers trained
$535,000 of in-kind donations received locally
$2.8m in cash and pledges received for the National Disaster Relief Fund
30,000 phone calls received at the Chapter since August 29th.

For all those bitching about the Red Cross, what have YOU done to help in the relief effort? If you haven't donated or volunteered to any relief organizations, offered housing, or sheltered anyone..I challenge you to look deep inside and ask yourself why you are so critical of those who have.

I can look inside and honestly say that I have, both as an employee with the Red Cross and a volunteer in my off hours. Those sitting back and bitching about the efforts of a not so perfect organization are no better than a Sunday afternoon armchair quarterback. Just my personal opinion.

[HoosierClarkie]

225. Today I turned in my canisters at the Red Cross...

and I was not sure what I was going to see or feel because of the stories I have been hearing. My family and I decided right after the Hurricane to donate all of our Garage Sale proceeds to the Red Cross. Last week we had the sale and made a lot of money. Today I turned in the canisters we used and I brought my kids with me. Right when I walked in there were signs everywhere directing people where to go. A huge Salvation Army sign was right by the front desk along with designated areas for evacuees. The volunteers there were so friendly and appreciative toward me and my children. The building was full of people who needed help and people who were there to help. I left with a feeling of people are inherently good. Our canisters had "hurricane relief" written on them and I believe that is where my money is going.

imho

[TOOLZ]

227. It's been on the Red Cross website that they weren't in NO...

..but for the record, I did donate to the Gov's LA fund, because the Red Cross doesn't build houses or infrastructure. And to give her a hope of independence from Bush.

[Annamaria]

234. It's still on the website

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

(*Their typo, not mine.)*Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

[earth mom]

229. I didn't trust the Red Cross before I read this article.

I remember hearing complaints about them in the past. It's just too easy for them to do what they want with the money by wasting it on salaries or putting the money towards other projects instead of what should have been done to immediately help the hurricane survivors.

[Danieljay]

232. Perhaps I can clear up a little of this up...

I work for the Red Cross and I have been approaching the top dogs about these things. The excess money collected from 9-11 is locked up. We are not allowed to touch it. The problem is that we couldn't spend all the money and still can't. It was donated to 9-11 relief. That being said, the money is not allowed to be spent for anything else. I was talking to someone about this who knows today, and he told me that the money will sit there and it would literally take an act of congress to release that money for anything else.

What people need to understand when donating to the Red Cross is this: There are four options for funds.

Katrina relief
American Red Cross Disaster fund
Local American Red Cross Chapter
Use my money as needed

Here is the problem. If people give a donation and say "Katrina relief" we HAVE to use the money for Katrina relief. If, like 9-11, we have excess, it cant be spent on anything else and sits locked up. If you donate to the Disaster relief fund, it can go to this disaster or any other disaster that might strike across the country. It could be money you donated that provides relief for the tornado that blows your house away next spring. Most people insist their money goes to the immediate need, creating all sorts of headaches on how it should be spent once the disaster relief has taken place. Unfortunately, what happens, is that the local chapter of the Red Cross that responds as ours does to an emergency every 32 hours, is short funded because people tend to only donate to the disaster on hand.

The Red Cross mission is to prevent, PREPARE for, and respond to emergencies. We live in a society who loves to respond but dedicates very few resources to preventing or preparing for. The supplies for this relief effort were purchased in the past and thats why we can respond so quickly. If everyone donates only to the Katrina relief effort, that money HAS to go for that, whats left is locked and legally we can't use it. So, the money sits there, as it is with the extra 9-11 funds. It wasn't squandered.

If I have any issue with the Red Cross it would be this: We need, during these emergencies, to explain this scenario to the person donating to help them understand that donating ONLY to the immediate relief is great, but if they donate to the disaster releif fund, it will be used in future disasters, perhaps in their own city or part of the country.

[TexasBushwhacker]

235. Excellent post DJ

It's my understanding that some on the Red Cross BOD wanted to spend some of the 9/11 funds on freezers for all of the blood banks across the country. Extending the shelf life of donated blood would certainly help with our disaster preparedness. But their hands (and $$$) are tied.

[Danieljay]

237. My last post on this topic. Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

Believe it? Its your choice.

Acess to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city.

The Red Cross has been meeting the needs of thousands of New Orleans residents in some 90 shelters throughout the state of Louisiana and elsewhere since before landfall. All told, the Red Cross is today operating 149 shelters for almost 93,000 residents.

The Red Cross shares the nation’s anguish over the worsening situation inside the city. We will continue to work under the direction of the military, state and local authorities and to focus all our efforts on our lifesaving mission of feeding and sheltering.

The Red Cross does not conduct search and rescue operations. We are an organization of civilian volunteers and cannot get relief aid into any location until the local authorities say it is safe and provide us with security and access.

The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.

As the remaining people are evacuated from New Orleans, the most appropriate role for the Red Cross is to provide a safe place for people to stay and to see that their emergency needs are met. We are fully staffed and equipped to handle these individuals once they are evacuated.

[Coastie for Truth]

240. Another DU Link

, and bobbieinok is not my sock puppet.

[natrat]

244. so where's my friggin 200 bucks going then

fuck you red cross

[Maddy McCall]

246. Thank you for your donation. I am sure that it helped feed my family...

for the past two weeks. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Please don't regret your donation. Red Cross has been extremely helpful to us hurricane victims.

Again, thank you for your donation. I can't begin to tell you how many people in Southwest/South Central Mississippi would also thank you. I've seen the numbers of people fed by Red Cross.

Do not regret your donation.

:hug:

[natrat]

255. cool

i found a few other orginizations that are also helping out as well as friends who have taken people in in shreeveport that need help

[Maddy McCall]

245. Red Cross was the ONLY organization here the day after the storm.

Remember, MANY communities and small towns outside of Louisiana were destroyed by Katrina, mine included.

Red Cross showed up the day after the storm with hot meals, ice, and water.

I've been telling everyone who asked what they could do for us to just make a donation to the Red Cross.

Even though many people here are getting their power back on, many are still without power and water. The Red Cross has been very visible and helpful during this whole terrible situation.

I'll tell you one thing...the Salvation Army only had one van here, and all they served was bologna sandwiches and chips. The Red Cross brought in hot meals--jambalaya and beef stew. Many of would not have had a hot meal, were it not for the Red Cross.

Y'all can believe Raw Story. I'll believe what I saw with my own eyes. Red Cross staffers were very nice and sincerely concerned, and they helped us through the roughest time--and they are still here.

God bless 'em.

[Coastie for Truth]

247. For your information

There is another DU Forum:
which I think presents a less emotional, and probably more factual discussion.

[Coastie for Truth]

248. To appenders who are attacking the ARC because Marti Evans

is a Republican ---

that is the same kind of reasoning on the other side of spectrum that got us such distinguished loyalists as Michael Brown, Patrick Rhode, Treasury Secretary John Snow, and the whole office load of Heritage Foundation Loyalists and American Enterprise Institute Loyalists and Federalist Society Loyalists and the same personal Loyalist mentality that outed Paul O'Neill and Valerie Plame.

[melody]

249. Can this administration sink any lower?

I don't think I want to know.

[rateyes]

250. Damn. Should I call my credit card company and dispute

the charge on the donation I made to Red Cross hurricane relief fund, and give it elsewhere..or will it be too much of a hassle?

[Maddy McCall]

252. No. Do NOT do that. Please read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4783914&mesg_id=4783914

[rateyes]

253. Thanks, that makes me feel better...

I won't. And, I'll go and give blood again next week. I know a guy whose niece was caught in that storm in Ocean City (I believe is the name of the town) near Biloxi. He knew she was staying at a Lutheran Church during the storm, and her husband, Navy man was at the base. After the storm, no communication, so this guy gets his brother, another uncle, and loads up a truck full of water (he's in the water business here in GA, he's from Barnesville, goes to a friend who owns a grocery store who donates a bunch of food, goes to another friend who gives him 2 55 gallon drums of diesel fuel to get home on and a pump to pump it with, and he heads out on his own to go get his niece and take supplies to the people in that Church.

He calls FEMA first to tell them what he's doing...they tell him not to go, that he will be stopped....he said, "I'm not asking, I'm telling you what I'm doing." He leaves and finds the church. A lady comes out and asks what they are doing there---he tells them he's looking for his niece, who is a nurse, and her two kids. The lady runs in the church and tells the niece two "angels" have arrived. The niece runs out and is flabbergasted to see her uncles.

They, up to that point, had NO SUPPLIES. Now, it's a gathering point in the community for help---whole place is filled up with supplies. The uncles tell their niece to get the children and come to GA to stay as long as they want. The niece says, "I'm a nurse. I can't leave these folk. They need me. She sends her kids with her uncles and she stays.

The uncles come back and start collecting donations for a second truckload and go back. They are now collecting another truckload of supplies, tools for clean up, etc. and going back---I'm part of a group getting word out in the community. At the same time, our group has furnished a 2-bedroom apartment in the "projects" for a family that had been displaced here to GA. To see people like that open their hearts and hands to the hurting---taking charge to get help to those people, the government rules be damned is great.

[Maddy McCall]

251. ***********MY KATRINA/RED-CROSS STORY. PLEASE READ ***********

Please read my personal story. I was in the path of Katrina. My hometown was devastated. Red Cross was the first organization here, and it's still here, feeding people and helping where needed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4783914&mesg_id=4783914

[justiceischeap]

254. My problem with the Red Cross and why I'll never donate-HIV vs. profits

Goes back further than 9/11. When HIV was new and reports from the CDC were starting to point to blood supply, the Red Cross wouldn't screen the blood because it would cut into their profit margin.

Read the book, "And the band played on" or see the movie of the same name.

[Coastie for Truth]

260. Stay well--

Stay well and may whoever or whatever bless you and protect you.

[riverwalker]

261. they are a fraud

and will never get another dime from me, not after NOLA. We saw babies dying of thirst and Americans generously donated, thinking the Red Cross surely would assist them. Nope. A 38 cent bottle of electrolyte solution would have saved those three dead babies at the Convention Center. We saw valiant physicians and nurses desperately begging for assistance at hospitals FOR TWO WEEKS, and the Red Cross had TEAMS of people who COULD have helped, but nope. Yeah, now they operate shelters and cook meals, this can be done by any organisation. "Disaster Relief" does not mean a survivor must swim or crawl to a "safe" place and maybe, just maybe, will find relief, if you fill out the right forms, in triplicate.
Red Cross founder Clara Barton trudged through the blood soaked battle fields of the Civil War for gawd sakes, dressing wounds with cornhusks. Now we have suburban ladies who are afraid to enter an American city, because it was too "dangerous" and they may get their shoes muddy.
The American Red Cross is a disgrace.

[Coastie for Truth]

263. Oh Mary's oldest boy!!! And Texas cow pattie!!!

FLAME ON:



I lived in New Orleans - St Charles Avenue between Sixth and Conery (that's around the corner from "Commander's Palace").

When I was a Coast Guard officer in New Orleans I actually bagged bodies after the 1/1/68 plane crash in Lake Ponchartrain. ("By Direction" of Willard J. Smith, James Craik, Ross P. Bullard, and Win Barrow --- google them,)

With the Red Cross, I have been a mass shelter supervisor where an entire city block apartment complex was burned out by an unthinking meth cooker -- the newly homeless were non-English speaking/ESL, and many were on Section VIII.

I have been a Disaster Assistance Captain numerous times for Non-English Speaking/ESL people were burned or flooded out of Section VIII housing. (People who can afford Tenants insurance usually don't need our assistance)

I have been in a Mass Shelter with a bunch of Non English speaking and ESL families because their landlord - getting rich on Section VIII money - didn't have a friggin smoke detector system working -- and the sprinklers were screwed up -- and 80 innocent and confused and bewildered families are now suddenly homeless.

I have been out there at 2 AM when some wise butt kid threw friggin cherry bombs under the cars in a car port - and a gas tank exploded -- and three families suddenly found themselves homeless. And, I have been out there in the friggin cold rain on a cell phone getting them three days of housing --- and getting a Red Cross debit card "activated."


Now, somebody - I don't know if it was Michael Brown or the Governor ot the Adjutant General of Louisiana, or the Mayor or the Chief of Police said "Don't cross this line - not the Red Cross, not the Salvation Army, not the Southern Baptist Brotherhood, not ARRL-Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service - don't cross this line or I will not so gently place your buttocks and anus in jail."

The sovereign - as a cop or a national guardsman or a mayor or a governor or a FEMA director can say "Don't cross this line" - and if you do you are "Trespasser" - most likely "Defiant Trespass" ("Criminal Trespass").

---The man with the badge calls the shots and makes the arrests.---
---So what is a well meaning, idealistic volunteer to do?

Well I may be a dues paying member of the American Civil Liberties Union, but I usually don't have an American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer with me - and the Red Cross volunteers in Jefferson Parish LA on the Orleans Parish line didn't have any American Civil Liberties Union Lawyers with them --- so under those circumstances it is the pure power of the badge to say "Don't cross this line - or I will put your butt in jail."

What is so hard to understand about badges and "Don't cross this line - or I will put your butt in jail."

What the devil do you think George Bush and Dick Cheney and Karl Rove and Michael Brown have been doing - leveling?

And if anyone sincerely believes that it was a Red Cross decision to stay out of Orleans Parish -- then they have been "manipulated" like the people in Thomas Frank's book (What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America) just like the Red Cross was ordered to stay out of Orleans Parish by "The Man."

I don't who or which "Man" it was. That is irrelevant. It will come out in the "hot debrief".

That's the way it is on the street when you don't have your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer with you.

My point is very simple. And if you don't get it let me spell it out for you.

"Don't cross this line - or I will put your butt in jail."

Alternatively,

1. The policeman, sheriff, deputy sheriff, state trooper, national guardsman, or soldier on the street in front of, blocking your entry, is "The Man."

2. "The Man" speaks for an on behalf of the Sovereign (Mayor, County Supervisor, Governor, FEMA Director, or President).

3. And if you cross the line, "The Man" will throw you in jail.

4. Maybe your your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer will get you out tomorrow or next day or next week -- but you haven't delivered any aid or assistance.

5. Maybe you are morally, legally, ethically, and spiritually right. But you are in jail until your American Civil Liberties Union Lawyer gets you out.


(I am not mocking the ACLU - I have been a dues paying member for 37 years).

"We saw valiant physicians and nurses desperately begging for assistance at hospitals FOR TWO WEEKS,"

They were al;ready in New Orleans - different from trying to get in

"The Red Cross had TEAMS of people who COULD have helped, but nope."

Not from jail - I spent two days waiting for my airplane ticket to LA that never came.

Yeah, now they operate shelters and cook meals, this can be done by any organization.

Be my guest - I'll send a check to Lithos or Skinner to send to you for your airplane ticket. Just PM me

"Disaster Relief" does not mean a survivor must swim or crawl to a "safe" place and maybe, just maybe, will find relief, if you fill out the right forms, in triplicate.

Have you ever worked in a shelter? - No

Red Cross founder Clara Barton trudged through the blood soaked battle fields of the Civil War for gawd sakes, dressing wounds with cornhusks. Now we have suburban ladies who are afraid to enter an American city, because it was too "dangerous" and they may get their shoes muddy.

The police line was as tight as Sharon's apartheid fence.

FLAME OFF:

[Maddy McCall]

266. If I could nominate a post, this would be it.

Amen, Coastie. Amen. :thumbsup:

[Columbia]

264. Some Red Cross got pretty close to New Orleans

[Moderator]

267. locking

No longer LBN