NYT: Vatican to Check U.S. Seminaries on Gay Presence

[DeepModem Mom]

Vatican to Check U.S. Seminaries on Gay Presence
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: September 15, 2005


Investigators appointed by the Vatican have been instructed to review each of the 229 Roman Catholic seminaries in the United States for "evidence of homosexuality" and for faculty members who dissent from church teaching, according to a document prepared to guide the process.

The Vatican document, given to The New York Times yesterday by a priest, surfaces as Catholics await a Vatican ruling on whether homosexuals should be barred from the priesthood.

In a possible indication of the ruling's contents, the American archbishop who is supervising the seminary review said last week that "anyone who has engaged in homosexual activity or has strong homosexual inclinations," should not be admitted to a seminary.

Edwin O'Brien, archbishop for the United States military, told The National Catholic Register that the restriction should apply even to those who have not been sexually active for a decade or more.

American seminaries are under Vatican review as a result of the sexual abuse scandal that swept the priesthood in 2002. Church officials in the United States and Rome agreed that they wanted to take a closer look at how seminary candidates were screened for admission, and whether they were being prepared for lives of chastity and celibacy....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/15/national/15seminary.html?hp&ex=1126843200&en=08921d1dc50130e0&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[saigon68]

1. THE SHEEP WON'T OPEN THEIR WALLETS

UNLESS THIS "SCOURAGE" IS STAMPED OUT.

[Kailassa]

2. confused old bigots

The Vatican never did understand the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Who cares how much the priests like each other so long as they leave the children alone.

[AlCzervik]

3. shouldn't they be looking for child molestors instead?

[Kailassa]

4. let him who is without sin ...

First they'd need an investigating committee who had not molested the people they were investigating.

[LostinVA]

26. Didn't you know? Some in the Vatican equate the two

Gay=Child Molester. Forget t6eh fact that the HUGE majority of pedophiles identify as straight males.

[sonicx]

5. "evidence of homosexuality"

are they gonna look at their music collection or something?

[bleedingheart]

20. yeah...no Judy Garland or Bette Midler better be in there...only ACDC

hahahahaha

[LostinVA]

27. And no clothes from Structure

[applegrove]

6. That still leaves all the pedophiles. Don't you think they should start

with that?

[applegrove]

7. Too bad. They will loose may great priests.

[ladylibertee]

12. Isn't there a difference between gay pedophiles and strait ones ?

[applegrove]

13. Who cares? They are peadophiles.

[kineneb]

8. Hmmm, may as well close down the priesthood...

I have always thought that the priesthood and monistaries were the perfect cover for closeted gay Catholics, and not just a few pediphiles, as well. There was no other place for them in "regular" life as Catholics.

If one looks at historical literature, one seems to find this trend. I am thinking specifically about such works as The Inferno(Dante) and the Decameron (Boccacio). The 14th and 15th centuries saw a low point in Church public relations. Indulgences, anyone? Seems they haven't learned much since the Reformation/Counter-Reformation. And they had such good music until the end of the 16th century (Vivaldi excepted). Sigh.

[applegrove]

10. There are some truly great religious folk in the world. Gay, straight,

mostly just spiritual. Now that the Vatican is an arm of the WH, I don't know what it would be like for the devout.

[kineneb]

14. I am surely not saying that there are not great religious people...

just that the priesthood has been, in the past, a refuge for the people who did not fit into the mould of the "ideal" Catholic family. There has been a long tradition of having one member of the large families "allocated" to go into the church, whether or not it was their calling. Whether that traditional pressure continues, I have no idea. Certainly I wish that anyone who joins any spiritual community is doing it for the right reasons and not out of social pressure or desire to run away from themselves.

[applegrove]

15. I think today it is the religious who join the church. Certainly a convent

was a safe place for some. In Canada religion is still pretty much a personal choice - something you would want to expose your kids to - to give them that choice later in life. I'm sorry for the USA.

And yes - bad people will show up in all walks of life. That should be the first order of business for the Catholic Church - as for all helping professions. And it doesn't happen enough. I'm sure they try to vet - but why the hell aren't they speaking out on it over and over again instead of attacking gays.

They will loose some of the best priests ever?

I hate stupidity, hate, and bad information.

[Justice]

18. That is an insult.

Not all priests are gay.

[moggie]

19. Insult, hmm?

Why should implying that someone is gay be an insult?

[Justice]

22. Reacting to Phrasing of original question

that suggesting that priests are not able to be regular catholics. In responding, I was reacting b/c a family member is a priest - and I didn't like the comment suggesting that all men who become priests are hiding something.

I apologize for using the word insult, or saying/implying that it is insulting to say someone is gay.

[LostinVA]

28. You are wrong on at least two counts

1.) Being called gay is not an insult. You have just personally offended me, as well as many gay DUers.

2.) When I still made believe I was Catholic, I worked alot in our local parish, and did alot of outreach and education work. Over the years, I came to know about 25 priests well, and of those 25, all but three were gay. They were from all over the country and all walks of life.

[Justice]

29. Okay,

I already responded by apologizing for using the word insult - I was reacting to the suggestion that all priests are hiding something.

My own personal experience interacting with many, many (100 or so) priests over the years, as a Catholic and in all sorts of ways, is different than yours.

[Stuckinthebush]

56. According to a gay priest I know

many are...but that isn't an insult.

[OneBlueSky]

9. guess they'll have to give them the hard on test . . .

flash some sexy gay photos at them and see if their willies wiggle . . . the younger the better, of course . . .

[OKthatsIT]

36. DO YOU CONFESS??!!!

wouldnt surprise me...but this gesture is just simply BS. The Roman Church was founded by gay men.

And Priests were allowed to marry and have families until around 1200 AD. The only reason they changed the marriage rule was for money...they didnt want the financial responsibility of the entire family.

[ladylibertee]

11. "anyone who has engaged in homosexual activity or has strong homosexual in

So, I guess that means the end of the American Catholic Church right?:shrug:

[gratuitous]

38. What are "strong homosexual inclinations" anyway?

Does the Pope mean a fondness for long, flowing robes over manly blue jeans? A predilection for flamboyant hats? A capella singing?

Uh oh.

[bee]

52. show tunes...

sure sign. everybody knows that. :sarcasm:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Nah.

Lack of interest in the opposite sex. That's the litmus test.

Uh oh II, the sequel.

[Kailassa]

16. the new Pope showing his true colours

And if they find any, will they go back to the traditions of the witch-burning days which left homosexuals with the sick apellation of faggot in memory of all those who were used as such to make the fires evil enough to burn witches? I would think the memory of such evil-doing would be seared deep into the conscienses of the Catholic hierarchy. But it seems that the more harm A does to B, the more A hates B in response.

[moobu2]

17. Preparations for the inquisition

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. Why doesn't this Satanist

go stick his bigoted prejudiced head up where the sun don't shine?

Doesn't he have better things to do if he was truly Christ's representative on earth? I don't recall homosexuality being a big issue in the gospels?

[MaineDem]

23. I'm so sorry to hear this

During my twelve years in Catholic schools I knew many priests. I never knew for sure but I would think that some of the better ones were probably gay. They never hurt anyone and were better at their jobs than others.

I've learned since that some of the ones that we always considerd "odd" were guilty of some forms of abuse. It's funny how that gut instinct works, even in kids.

[LostinVA]

24. There goes over half the US priest population

And that percentage may be conservative. I know of what I speak....

[radwriter0555]

25. Sooo they're going to look under their mattresses for gay porn

or what?

I wonder what method they'll use to DETECT homosexuals?

[Sin]

32. They will do this

First you have to weigh them and if they are = in weight to a duck then they are consequently make of wood that means there gay and can be burned at the stake.

wonder if this document they are passing out looks like the Malleus Maleficarum :) hehe ahh those cooky cooky RCs guess its kinda hard to learn when thats frowned upon.

[Kailassa]

33. backs to the wall, it's the inquisition

They will ask them what sign God gave to Noah, and if the priest mentions a rainbow ...

[AnnieBW]

59. A Gaydar Detector!

N/T

[plasticsundance]

30. Catholic probe to look at gays in seminaries: NY Times

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Catholic Church investigators tasked by the Vatican to review U.S. seminaries will be looking for "evidence of homosexuality" and for professors who dissent from Church teaching, the New York Times reported on Thursday.

The newspaper said a Vatican document prepared to guide the process and given to The New York Times by a priest, surfaces as Catholics await a Vatican ruling on whether homosexuals should be barred from the priesthood.

American seminaries are under review as a result of the sexual abuse scandal that swept the priesthood in 2002, the year the probe which is now starting was announced.

Catholic probe to look at gays in seminaries: NY Times

[Callalily]

31. I don't have a problem

with gays in the seminaries. But I DO have a problem with pedophiles. Suspect there really isn't a valid screening process for these sick predators though. Too bad.

[ReadTomPaine]

35. They already know who the pedophiles are..

Thus the movements from parish to parish over the years to hide and enable them. Seems being gay is a more serious offense than raping a child to some.

[Totally Committed]

34. Now that Bennie's in the house...

let the witch-hunts begin! :crazy:

Will someone please tell The Church that homosexuality is not the problem in the abuse scandals... it's the PEDOPHELIA. Not just boys were abused by priests. Their crackdown smacks of the old idiocy of "every homosexual is a pedophile" bullshit that the RW wants society to believe. Shame on them!

On a personal note (my opinion only), I also have one more thing to say about today's Church: They need to allow priests to be married and/or female. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that priests should be celibate OR MALE. The Church's priests should reflect society more if they are to make any real contribution to it.

TC

[xchrom]

37. having dated on the dl -- more than a few priests

through the years -- there could be a lot of job openings happening vey soon.

i'm actually so outraged by this i don't have words to express -- but i've said it before and i'll say it again there are reasons for gays{and all kinds of other liberals, progressives, socialists, etc} to take protests directly to the doors of churches.

if several hundred pro-equal rights folk{anti-war folk, womens right folk} start showing up outside chuches on sundays and turn up the truth heat -- you might start getting a different reation from churches.

churches and their ''goers'' believe they are ''safe'' on sunday in their halls of sacred hate -- take that away from them.

[Bragi]

41. That's a really good idea

There should be protests against hateful, bigoted religions, and Sunday mornings outside these churches would be a fine time to do this.

Perhaps protests of this sort would finally convince any thoughtful church-goers to seek out alternatives that meet their spiritual needs, but that aren't hateful, bigoted and idiotic, like the contemporary Catholic Church.

I wonder why this hasn't already happened.

- B

[xchrom]

42. i'ld love to see that happen.

there's a whole range of topics, that in the 21st century, churches have become positvely reactionary and threatening too other peple about.

[CatholicEdHead]

54. That is actually what they want

This thread from Catholic World News shows some proof of it. CWN are the extreme "dittoheads" to the Vatican Hierarchy line. This thread was one I was floored when reading it. They WANT this to happen so they can get rid of the "Lavender Mafia" (that term is used ALOT on that web site) and they want only a few selected churches per dioceses with only one to at few priests so everyone is there focused on the "Orthodox" ceremony (preferably in Latin).

http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=2773

This thread will also floor everyone here.

Edit: here are the options:

"Plan A. The Status Quo: Priestly formation -- and parish life generally -- continues as it has been and is presently.

Plan B. The Nuclear Option: After the holocaust, only one priest remains per diocese. For the next fifteen years (i.e., until the effects of the reform kick in), you have to drive 35 miles every Sunday and Holy Day to an outdoor football stadium, where you have a bad view of a valid and licit Mass served by unbuggered altar boys, and hear a scarcely audible but orthodox homily, delivered by an ancient priest in a nearly unintelligible Vietnamese accent."

[Bragi]

39. Why is any caring person still Catholic?

This inquisition just shows how twisted and fucked up the church is.

First they demand that priests live unnaturally by surpressing their natural sexual urges, the consequnces of which have been catastropic for most priests, and for the Church.

Now Pope Ratfucker wants to out and ban priests who have actually obeyed the idiotic command to suppress their natural sexual urges, if these un-acted-upon urges theoretically run in the direction of homosexuality. Huh?

As a totally lapsed Catholic, I have to say this: I do not understand, or feel sympathetic, to any intelligent and caring person who continues to be a Catholic.

The fact is that there are plenty of churches and religious groupings out there whose spiritual and religious beliefs are tolerant, caring and not all that different to those of the Church, minus that which is bizarrely idiotic, hateful and dysfunctional.

You have a choice. Why not make it?

- B

[Coventina]

40. And for our next act: WITCH BURNING!!!!!!

Goddess help us!

:scared:

Old Ratty really is turning back the clock, isn't he?

[Bob3]

43. "evidence of homosexuality'?

Okay I give up. What the hell does that mean? Are they going to root through the seminaries looking for broadway musical CDs? Opera tickets? What? god in heaven there are people hurt sick dying and in pain all over the world and this is what they spend their time on. Useless lot of celibate empty suits.

Also a shirk how helped out some members of my family also did a lot of work with gay priests. Judging by his account they ban gay priests they are going to have maybe eleven left.

[closeupready]

44. He's talking about "purifying" the hierarchy. Umm,

where have we heard that before? :scared: :scared:

[Felix Mala]

45. Confirms that they believe their own media spin.

Taking a page out of the American Republican Party playbook: Blame the weakest people in society for your troubles.

[TygrBright]

46. Soon there will be no priests left...

The Vatican is boxing itself into a corner in a big way. There is already a terrible shortage of priests in many nations. The places with an abundant supply of priests tend to be nations with sharply limited access to economic success and power for ordinary citizens, especially if their Churches are also "mission" churches and supervision through normal heirarchical channels is a bit lax.

Nations where young men from lower social classes have other options than the priesthood for achieving economic success and/or power are experiencing increasingly critical shortages of candidates for the priesthood. The requirement of celibacy makes priesthood quite unattractive for the average young man who can make a living without going through several years of focused, challenging schooling and committing to celibacy for life, even if they are otherwise spiritually inclined. Gay men have been less impeded by the celibacy requirement, perhaps largely because they have so few options for living openly in a long-term, committed sexual relationship.

Many gay men have chosen the priesthood and remained celibate even from gay sex. There are some really excellent and inspiring priests who are gay. If the Church intends to discriminate even against gay men who are willing to make the commitment to celibacy, who will be left?

As the years go by and the seminary enrollment declines, and the Church resolutely refuses to accept women and gay men, resolutely refuses to adapt through permitting temporary vows or married clergy, they will be forced to drain their "expanding" areas to meet the needs of the faithful in America. That stopgap won't meet the need and will alienate conservative Catholics who don't care for foreigners, and liberal Catholics who won't appreciate the medievalist sensibilities of many of the developing world clergy.

The Church in the developed world will die.

forebodingly,
Bright

[kineneb]

57. Thanks, that was what I meant,

just a different way of saying it. Actually, the Catholic Church sort of burned its own bridges during the 16th century and in many ways never recovered from the Reformation. They have been trying to retrench ever since. Luther made it possible to serve god and still have a real life and family. Now we need a reformation coming from logical biology that recognizes that being gay is a normal condition. But of course the theme of the current Church leadership is "back to the Middle Ages" (like they have a clue of what went on then).

Placing the Imperial crown on his head, "Am I not still King?" -Fredrick II to his Electors after being excommunicated again by Innocent III. (I think I have the roman numerals correct).

Aaah, what happens when one studies the Middle Ages.

[Blue_Tires]

47. how will they know who is or isn't?

does the pope have gaydar??!?!?

[Dulcinea]

48. Priests are supposed to be celibate.

So who cares what their sexual orientation is if they're not supposed to have sex anyway? As long as they're not molesting children, what's the big deal?

[LostinVA]

51. All gay men are child molesters

Or so say some.

[Betty]

49. Are they going to send sexy undercover agents

who will try to seduce the seminarians? Is that how they will prove whose presence is gay?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

50. Remember History of the World, Part I

Where they're testing the eunuchs to find the imposter?

[deacon2]

55. Men in dresses kneeling to kiss other men's rings...

Thank God, nothing gay about that!

[AnnieBW]

58. Setting Off the Gaydar

What are they gonna do? Take a single woman in there and see if her gaydar goes off? Or look for evidence of hidden Abercrombie and Fitch vestments? Or see if the seminarians' room have been decorated with Pottery Barn merchandise? :D