Poll: Katrina showed Canada U.S. poverty

[sabra]

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/southamerica/printer_1048752.php

Poll: Katrina showed Canada U.S. poverty

TORONTO, ON, Canada (UPI) -- A new poll finds the images of Hurricane Katrina`s aftermath have harmed Canadians` image of the United States.

One-third of those surveyed for a poll done for the Toronto Globe and Mail said their impressions of U.S. society had changed and 85 percent of that group said the change was for the worse.

'They saw the underbelly of America that is traditionally hidden, an underbelly that is not only rife with poverty, that is so very much along race lines,' said Alan Gregg of The Strategic Counsel, which conducted the poll.

More than half of those polled, 54 percent, believe the government of Prime Minister Paul Martin would have been more effective than the Bush administration if faced with a similar disaster.

[barb162]

1. Very interesting

It amazes me that people think there's little or no poverty here and I guess it may be from our media influence, TV shows, etc? It's as if there isn't a realistic view of America in the first place and then they are disappointed with what they see. Oh well. I was disappointed too at the way the recovery is going and went. A huge foulup run by idiots. I guess they expected efficiency and quickness.

And my cat could have been more effective than monkey's administration.

[Maple]

2. The reason it's so startling to some Canadians

is that our neo-cons keep trying to convince us we are a third world country, and poverty stricken by US standards....way behind on income and productivity levels.

If that gets too complicated or difficult...they also tell people that all blacks in the US live better than any Canadian of any color.

Many Canadians only see Vegas...or a Florida or Arizona retirement community in the wintertime. It doesn't always occur to them that not all Americans live like that.

This has come as an eye-opener.

[barb162]

17. Some of the poor urban areas shown in the footage

don't even come near how bad things really are. Some people really do live in horrible tiny shacks where the light is coming through from holes in the roof and the houses in NOLA were way better than the shacks I am talking about. There's a lot of rural poor who never get seen and it has been this way since the start of the country.

[shrike]

62. Yep

Even in Illinois, there are impoverished towns where people live in shacks with dirt floors, no indoor plumbing, etc.

[Darth_Kitten]

47. I wasn't surprised......

and most people I know were not surprised either.

What I heard most from people who have travelled the U.S, is that being poor in the U.S. is much, MUCH worse than being poor in Canada. That we cannot even imagine how bad it actually is. :(

[Blue_Tires]

55. wow

"they also tell people that all blacks in the US live better than any Canadian of any color."

my brain just stopped working for a moment after reading that....lol

I wonder how that makes black canadians feel?

[reprobate]

6. Why would anyone expect a Bush led operation to be successful?

`

After all, this throwback has NEVER run a successful operation or business on his own without being bailed out by his Daddy's friends.

Why would his administration be any different? So far it has not done anything right. Oh, yeah, I forgot about Iraq. What a success!

[Maple]

7. Because any PM of ours

who had botched something up this badly would likely be publicly eviscerated.

[raccoon]

18. I think it IS the media influence, as you said, TV, movies, etc.

I've heard before that a lot of foreigners think that all Americans are well-off. My guess is a lot of them, not just Canadians, now realize that all Americans AREN'T well off.

[StrafingMoose]

20. I guess that's the same (ratio speaking) in Canada

it's just that we're 32 millions instead of 280 millions :P

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

3. I'm saddened...

...that as many as 28% (85% of 1/3) of Canadians needed this catastrophe to change their impression of the current "U.S. society" (I read this as "people in power") to be still inculcating real race/class discrimination in the U.S.

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist in Canada or elsewhere... I'm just commenting on the survey.

[Pierre Trudeau]

4. it's not that we weren't aware of it

As a Canadian, at least I certainly wasn't. For awhile, I was traveling to various parts of the US as part of my work (since May 2004, I have refused to visit the US any more, and in fact I've turned down work that would involve going there), and I saw first-hand the striking disparities that seem to be so widespread, and not specific to any particular region.

What amazed me was that even smaller US cities all seemed to have their own black ghetto; the "bad area", "across the tracks", where "the black people live". Even places like Schenectady NY exhibited this phenomenon. And in cities like Baltimore, I was taken aback by all the areas that looked like war zones. These weren't just poor neighbourhoods, they weren't even neighbourhoods at all: most of the buildings were burnt out or boarded up, there was not even a corner store, and yet people still lived there. Whenever I ventured into such areas, all the residents would look at me in disbelief, as if to say "what are YOU doing here, white boy??"

Admittedly, Canada has its own share of poverty, housing projects, racial discrimination, and the like. But you don't find anything resembling these outright war zones of US cities. I tended to attribute this to the legacy of slavery and racial segregation in the US. Since these phenomena were never part of Canada's history to the same degree, the same kind of urban ghettoization has not occurred. Although one can argue that Canada's ghettos are the indian reservations.

The cited poll is probably more a reflection of how Katrina's aftermath revealed these well-known problems to Canadians in such an obvious and dispiriting way.

[barb162]

8. did you stop going to the US because of us?

I have a story. I have been to several places in Canada including Vancouver and a man who lives in Vancouver started telling me about all the drugs there after I had been there. And he asked where I stayed and visited and said the drug neighborhood was very close to where I had been shopping. And it was a weird conversation as I hadn't thought of Canada and drugs...I thought of Canada with great scenery and nice people. Not drugs. To this day, I don't think of Vancouver and drugs.

I also notice that in Canada there seems to be no black people, relatively speaking.

Yes, there is huge disparity in most US cities. The city where I live doesn't have that disparity for various reasons. I think you're right about the legacy of slavery and racism. Progress was being made a few decades ago.

[Pierre Trudeau]

9. actually it was the Abu Ghraib revelations

I was in Baltimore at the time the story broke with the prison torture photos. It really did a number on me, psychologically. I began to think that the term "fascism" was no longer an exaggeration, that it might indeed be heading that way. Moreover, it wasn't just the fact of the activities at Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere, as we later learned), which I would have suspected anyway, but the seeming acceptance of such behaviour among a significant portion of the US population. I vowed never to return unless there was a wholesale rejection of these policies by the American people.

Instead, Bush was re-elected. :(

I should add, however, that during all of my working trips to the US, not one single American I directly spoke to or worked with expressed the slightest support for President Bush and his administration. Everyone described him as a national embarrassment, and considered him the worst president ever. But they seemed to be so helpless and unable to affect anything.

Mind you, the circles I was moving in were fairly specific: I work in the performing arts, an industry not known for its right-wing sentiments.

[barb162]

10. You know how close the last two elections were.

Some of the Bush voters just vote their pocketbook and don't like his other policies. There is a big group of Americans who just vote that way. Then there are the others who look at him as Mr. MoralValues (bwa). Then there are other people who vote for so many other reasons, like race, etc. If an election were held today, I think he might not win. I can't trust the polls too much; even though people right now indicate things are going in the wrong direction, some just feel comfortable with him enough not to change, the pocketbook types always will vote GOP, etc.

The country is shifting to the right and he benefits from that.

I am not sure if he is the worst president ever, but he would be very close. Maybe Nixon and Bush would tie for last place.

[Erika]

12. The country is NOT shifting to the right

Where did you come up with that?

[barb162]

15. Oh, observations from people like Jimmy Carter etal

I also notice it a lot myself. Take a look at the numbers of far right in Congress versus 20 yrs. ago (up). Take a look at the number of centrists versus 20 yrs. ago (down). Check the book "What's the Matter with Kansas." I could go on and on

[drummo]

21. Nixon was a dishonest thug

but at least he was not incompetent.

And as Gore said " the Bush-Cheney administration is a rarity in American history, it is simultaneously dishonest and incompetent."


He's right.

[Erika]

11. How sad. W at least acknowledged racial inequality

Sonething that had not done by a GOP since Nixon.

[melody]

14. Bush wasn't re-elected

I think it has been easier for international forces to just "accept" that we "re-elected" the moron rather than face the fact we were overthrown by a military junta.

I can't imagine not visiting Canada, no matter if your PM was in league with Satan (as opposed to our Faux-President who IS Satan). It's sad that you'd let one man overshadow your opinion of all those who must suffer his daily havoc. Why is it no one blames the Iranians who quietly cower yet this monster comes in, overthrows our government and we're somehow to blame?

There is not only racism in this country, there is great poverty in this country which knows no race. The vast majority of Americans are NOT even close to wealthy or influential, yet we get blamed for the antics of the multi-national mega-rich.

George Bush's true compatriots are Tony Blair and John Howard and Paul Martin, NOT the average American folk.

[catnhatnh]

5. Surprise, Surprise...

...I believe a Government headed by DEAN Martin would have "responded" better...

[Robert Oak]

13. well, they are right

What is most interesting about the dramatic increases of Americans living in poverty...

is the poverty line itself has not changed, so I wonder just how many really are living in poverty if the poverty line was adjusted for inflation.

Anyway, they cannot ship the good paying jobs offshore, now insource, refuse to give health care at reasonable cost, dramatically increase tuition so educational opportunities are out of research, increase taxes on the lower income brackets and in general steal of the poor and give to the rich (take for example the now mega salaries of CEOs)
and not expect America to change and millions are now in poverty.

[barb162]

16. HI. People have been voting against their economic interests

bigtime the last few years and it is something I don't know how to tackle. I have talked to people who have been horribly affected by outsourcing, offshoring, illegal immigration, etc. They still vote for Bush. You tell them that laws could be enacted against these things, unemployment benefits could be greater, etc., and they still vote for Bush. They think it is just market forces affecting them, that that next great job is just around the corner when whole industries have been wiped out and sent to China and India. Also I fight the mindset that if it isn't capitalism then it must be Stalin- version communism. They refuse to believe or acknowlege that business is constantly lobbying and buying off Congress to get in anti-worker legislation and that they are sitting ducks for the downward spiral. I shake my head.

[Robert Oak]

19. don't ya know

Jesus will save them...question Jesus and you'll go to hell fer sure!

:)

I know, I talked until blue in the face last election and one of the biggest problems was Kerry said he couldn't do anything about outsourcing in debate #2. Big fat mistake and not even true by his own economic advisors behind the scenes.

Plus both dems and repuks are corpocrats so that makes it even worse and confuses people so they vote their "identity" versus the platform.

[barb162]

102. I remember Kerry making that error

about outsourcing in the debate. He should have made solutions to outsourcing, joblessness, etc., one of the centerpieces of his campaign (like getting rid of those damned free trade agreements, restarting manufacturing here again with big tax breaks, keeping innovation and technology HERE, etc). There are plenty of things that can be done with the help of goverment. Until this country makes the American worker important again versus only the corporations, thinkn will spiral downward

[NorthernSpy]

22. absolutely! the most effective engine we had for escaping poverty...

... was unionized heavy industry. And now it's mostly gone.

Even white-collar and tech jobs are going overseas.

What libertarian types can't seem to get through their heads is that a society in which "anyone" can get rich just isn't enough. Unless everyone can attain a secure, decent standard of living with ordinary effort, then the society as a whole will fail. And American society clearly IS failing.

The notion of somehow finding a way to make society safe for inequality is a longtime pipedream of the technocratic elite. And in trying to turn this fantasy into a reality, they've destroyed the lives of millions right here in this country.

[Maple]

23. There isn't any 'plot'

Nor is there any such 'pipedream'

Unionized heavy industry was a part of the Industrial Age...and we are now in the Knowledge Age. Did you think it would last forever?

[Spazito]

24. I agree, there is no plot, it is much more simple than that

NAFTA transfers the wealth to the corporations while penalizing the middle class and the poor. It negates environmental and economic concerns for the 'locals' in order to enrich the corporation. Fair wages are an anathema as are environmental controls to profit-first, profit-last, profit only NAFTA supporters.

[Maple]

25. That doesn't happen either

I know you all like to think corporations are 'outtagitcha'...but they ain't.

Paranoia is a poor substitute for reality.

[NorthernSpy]

27. reality: these "free market" schemes have harmed the working class

Your interests are not ours, and your reality is not ours. And all your condescension will not change that.

[Maple]

28. Reality: there is no longer a 'working class'

You are still living in the Industrial Age...and that no longer exists.

[NorthernSpy]

33. I live among working class people

You telling me they don't exist?

[Maple]

35. Good for you

They're the last generation. Take notes.

[NorthernSpy]

37. if they're the last generation, then the generations to follow...

... will merely be the new underclass.

Your "post-industrial" economy is bringing increasing inequality, not general affluence.

[Maple]

40. There won't be 'generations to follow'

The Knowledge age doesn't have a working class.

I gather you thought the Industrial Age of the 1750s would go on forever?

[Blue_Tires]

56. "The Knowledge age doesn't have a working class"

so everyone in the future will be rich?? or all the old 'working class' jobs will be automated??

forgive me, i guess i'm just slow on the uptake

[Maple]

57. A Knowledge age

requires people to have knowledge...to use their brain rather than their brawn.

Automation will certainly be a big factor. Jobs go to cheaper labor right now, but eventually labor costs will equalize..China/India are temporary solutions. Then it will likely be Africa for awhile...but at some point, in order to compete, it'll be robots.

Japan already has a car factory run entirely by robots.

[NorthernSpy]

58. so while robots do the handwork, and computers do the headwork...

... the sons and daughters of the working class will do what, exactly? Obediently die in a heap when there's not enough "knowledge work" to go around?

And I remind you: your "post-industrial" economy is increasing inequality, and it's increasing poverty. This economy didn't spring up from nature; it's the result of decisions made by other people, none of them acting in the interest of my kind.

[Maple]

66. They will be knowledge workers

using their brains, not their brawn.

Or would you rather keep them all digging ditches, and doing the other manual labor forever?

Doesn't sound like a very 'equal' policy to me.

[NorthernSpy]

76. I think that's a lot of hooey

For one thing, just as advances in robotics can replace muscle, advances in AI can replace much of your precious brainwork.

Also, there's no need to wait for Stallman et al to give us better AI: brainwork too can be done overseas at cheaper wages than Americans can accept. In fact, as far as working class people are concerned, the opportunities for knowledge-intensive work have diminshed as jobs in trades requiring skilled labor have been extensively outsourced.

[Maple]

77. Well stop the world

cuz NorthernSpy things it's 'hooey'

And if you can't outthink AI...you have more problems than I can help. :rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

80. yeah, people used to laugh at the idea of robots replacing line workers...

Technology can and -- per what is implicit in your scenario -- will ultimately make category after category of "knowledge workers" just as redundant as everyone else.

So I guess you exalted People of the Brain Age are going to end up on the heap with us proles after all.

[Maple]

85. Robots have replaced people

in many things...but no they won't replace brain workers.

[NorthernSpy]

96. why? cause they have no soul?

:eyes:

Well, I guess we'll see just how "un-automatible" all these "brain jobs" really are.

And remember: "brain jobs" also can be outsourced to countries with lower average incomes, but strong educational systems to produce lots of trained workers. Sound like anyone you know?

[Maple]

98. LOL yeah, that would be it

Guess you'll just have to learn to compete...the same thing you've been telling other countries for years

[malaise]

65. That's ideological BS n/t

[Maple]

67. Politics is ideological

Technology isn't

[shrike]

64. Actually, they do

At least for now. As I refer to in my below post, some "knowledge" jobs involve working with your hands. Plumbing, electrical work, etc.

These aren't jobs that any schmoe can do. They require training -- four years of it in most cases, just like college. My husband was a craftsman before he retired and his classes included calculus, hydraulics -- the kind of stuff I couldn't do if my life depended on it.

[Maple]

68. Being a doctor

also involves working with your hands. Hands aren't in question.

Digging a ditch, working on the line, moving furniture doesn't involve either knowledge or brains.

[shrike]

114. My point was

a knowledge-based economy doesn't just mean sitting at a computer all day. Some knowledge-based jobs might actually be considered blue collar.

[Spazito]

30. And fanatical adherence to the belief of the 'benign' corporations

regardless of the true facts could be seen as obsessive and unrealistic. Each to their own I suppose.

Corporations aren't out to 'git me', they don't even know I, or you, exist in reality, we are nonentities to their goals and aspirations and that is EXACTLY the point.

[Maple]

32. Economics should be mandatory

in school...it would save the world so much time and nonsense.

[NorthernSpy]

36. YOUR economics is just the promotion of YOUR interests

No thanks. I don't think that such propaganda has any place in the schools.

[Maple]

39. Economics is a standard subject

and no more 'propaganda' than math is.

[NorthernSpy]

61. now here's where I start laughing...

Economics is "no more propaganda than math is"?

Pardon me, but that's just baloney.

:eyes:

[Maple]

69. Then I gather

you know little about economics, and have instead wandered off into philosophy.

[NorthernSpy]

82. I know enough about economics...

... to know that it is a soft science, with a brittle empirical-flavored coating, and a gooey ideology center.

[Maple]

86. Tell that to your banker

when your mortgage payment is overdue.

See how soft and gooey it is then. :D

[NorthernSpy]

97. I don't believe in buying on credit

And besides, your reply was a non sequitur. Whether bankers want their money has nothing to do with economics being a soft science.

[Maple]

99. Then don't

But others do...and my point was that you'd find out there is nothing soft about economics when your bills aren't paid.

[NorthernSpy]

104. Ah! You're using the word "economics" to mean two different things...

There a term for that...

"Equivocation"? Does that sound right?

Anyway, to speak of "economics" in the plain English sense that might include such such facts of financial life as a banker wanting his money on time is one usage of the term; asking whether the study of economics is a hard science or soft is using the term to indicate something quite different.

Also, the unyieldingness of the banker in his demands is not the same sort of "hardness" as that which is claimed or rejected for a given science; there's no correlation or connection of any kind there.

[Maple]

107. It only has one meaning I'm afraid

and there's nothing soft about it.

Semantic games to hide protectionism notwithstanding

[Spazito]

42. Actually, I am well schooled in economics, the difference is my schooling

also included the ability to understand one can focus on economics while still retaining a moral and ethical stance. It is to the detriment, economically, to use and abuse poorer countries in order to take over their resources, ruin their environment and ensure their poor remain poor.

[Maple]

43. Doubtful

or you'd know more about it.

And wouldn't attribute your personal political beliefs to it.

[Spazito]

44. Therein lies your philosophy, or rather, lack of

Economics without ethics is exactly what NAFTA supporters tout and why, in the end, they will fail.

[Maple]

45. Numbers is numbers I'm afraid

and they don't worry about old political beliefs from the 19th century.

Please...enough with the 'come the revolution' crap.

[Spazito]

46. I have little doubt you subscribe to "Greed is good" as the antidote

to all. It is not unlike all those who vote against their own best interests in the forlorn hope to one of the 'in' crowd, not realizing that those they want to emulate couldn't give a rat's ass about them and their aspirations of sharing in the 'spoils'.

[Maple]

48. Marx died in 1883

So give the ancient history texts a rest, and stop attributing rubbish to other people because you choose to be a luddite.

[Spazito]

49. Actually, I find the personal attacks less than endearing

but what is even more annoying is the lack of substance and the overuse of empty insults to cover an inability to debate issues with any credibility.

It does cause one to wonder why empty pro-NAFTA rhetoric seems to be the norm with some and, when lacking substantive rebuttals, personal slights become the replacement.

[Maple]

50. You have confused

me personally with globalization, and I am no more responsible for it than I was responsible for the fall of Rome.

So it does you no good whatever to argue with the messenger.

There is nothing to debate. It is reality. It isn't going away

You'd be better off discussing what is actually occurring, and how to deal with it, than trying to insult me.

[Spazito]

51. ROFL, just ROFL

:rofl:

[Maple]

52. ROFL all you want

you'll still be out of a job unless you pull up your sox.

[NorthernSpy]

59. but your globalist fait accompli IS "going away" in Venezuela...

... as the national and local governments -- and even workers themselves -- seize idle factories and fields.

Things are only as "inevitable" as we allow them to be.

[Maple]

70. That has nothing to do

with globalization. Seizing the assets of others has been done since ancient times.

[NorthernSpy]

73. sigh...

Yes, it has something to do with globalization if your factory has been idled by some company that decided to shut the place down and go make more money elsewhere.

Seizing that factory and operating it IS striking a blow against globalization, because doing so reasserts the power of local and national authorities to act against your precious global free market.

Obviously.

[Maple]

75. Stay with me for a moment here

Factories are shut down for a reason. It won't do anyone any good if you 'take over' a closed factory and restart it.

You still have to sell the product...and if they can get the items cheaper from elsewhere...the factory is still useless.

The only way to stop that is to ban foreign goods, throw up tariff walls, and try to hide behind them.

That's never worked...because no one will buy your goods either...and Venezuela by itself is a very small market. Sooner or later the lay-offs begin...and finally the factory closes. Again.

You are confusing local ownership...which is fine...with global markets and outsourcing. They are not the same thing.

You can own a business in your home country...and sell globally. THAT is globalization.

[NorthernSpy]

78. actually, strong protectionism built America into a world power

Factories are shut down for a reason. It won't do anyone any good if you 'take over' a closed factory and restart it.

You don't know that. One thing about operating a factory as part of the public sector is that you can give yourself a competition advantage by excusing public enterprise from taxation. Also, a public enterprise will likely be able to operate even on a just-better-than-break-even basis, because it does not have to produce as much profit as a private concern would have to in hope of remaining worthwhile to investors.

The only way to stop that is to ban foreign goods, throw up tariff walls, and try to hide behind them.

That's never worked...because no one will buy your goods either...and Venezuela by itself is a very small market. Sooner or later the lay-offs begin...and finally the factory closes. Again.

Actually, protectionist policies have often worked well for the working classes of many nations, and for the nations as wholes. If the result is America mostly producing goods for domestic consumption, that'll be fine with me.

[Maple]

79. Actually it caused the Depression

And yes, spy...I do know that. Economics has a history. It wasn't invented yesterday.

You can only sell so much in a limited market. To stay viable you need to expand your market.

Countries have tried all these things before...and operated companies for years without profit, owned publically, and totally subsidized.

Japan is still recovering.

The US can't sell only to itself. And if it refuses to import...no one will take your exports either...a vicious circle rolling to disaster.

[NorthernSpy]

81. the world itself is a limited market

The search for new markets to keep capitalism from dying is ultimately unsustainable. Globalism just prolongs the agony, and chews up a lot of people and nature in the effort. Protectionism or no, it is unavoidably the case that eventually you'll tap all the available markets. If at that point it all comes tumbling down, then you're screwed, because you've come face to face with a fatal flaw of capitalism.

Then, I suppose, you either find some extraterrestrials to sell to, or you ditch capitalism.

[Maple]

87. Guess we'll have to open markets on Mars then eh?

and of course, you could try new products.

But for some reason you seem to want a crash.

PS...Capitalism and socialism are both dead. You are seeing the long slow topple of both.

Your problem is that you don't know what globalization is, and you are confusing the whole thing with a political agenda.

[NorthernSpy]

93. ha!

So you're saying that protectionism brings about collapse when the economy runs out of new markets to expand into. But when the global economy runs out of new markets, we might prevent collapse by -- ah, um -- "trying new products"?

In other words, you haven't really thought that far ahead. So you're stuck with reciting standard Economics 101 propaganda against "protectionism", never mind that even if you drop all the traditional protections of national economies, you still eventually run out of markets anyway.


And by the way, globalist capitalism is still capitalism. Why did you think it wasn't?

[Maple]

94. No, didn't say that

You could try new products now, which is a better alternative than throwing up walls, but you don't seem inclined to do that.

Instead you choose to worry about what happens when everyone on the planet has cars and TVs and fridges and so on. Well by then the economy will have changed so much that it isn't going to matter...but you can plan on Mars if you like

Protectionism kills an economy...try it if you wish, but it will bring on a Depression that will make the Dirty Thirties look like a walk in the park in comparison.

The world doesn't operate solely on capitalism, and hasn't for a long time. Most countries are moving Third Way.

Capitalism was a product of the Industrial Age...Socialism was a reaction to capitalism....the Industrial Age is over with...so are it's structures and mechanisms.

[NorthernSpy]

100. try new products!

Instead of protectionism, try new products! When the global economy has chewed up everything in sight and there are no new markets, try new products!

A non-answer good for every occasion.

Capitalism was a product of the Industrial Age...Socialism was a reaction to capitalism....the Industrial Age is over with...so are it's structures and mechanisms.

And yet the same people still own everything. Funny, that!

[Maple]

108. He says as he uses a computer

another relatively new product.

Try other new products....now. Not years from now

The 'same people' don't still own everything...that's political doubletalk

[NorthernSpy]

26. please -- people still need stuff, and stuff is still made in factories...

... it just that those factories are in China now.

And yes, that's because certain people decided to take them from here and put 'em over there. Factories don't move themselves. It wasn't some kind of "natural" evolutionary process.

[Maple]

29. Really?

So leave them in China...and move on.

Cuz yes, it is natural and evolutionary.

[NorthernSpy]

31. ... and yes, I know that the actual buildings themselves were not moved...

... across the ocean when the factories went to China et al.

Just getting that in before you can patronize me on that point.

[Maple]

34. Who said they were??

[NorthernSpy]

38. just anticipating your next snotty remark...

Bet I was right.

[Maple]

41. Everything evolves...including economics

Kindly keep the personal remarks out of it.

[NorthernSpy]

60. ... except that pointing out the snotty tone of your commentary...

... isn't a "personal remark" by any stretch of the imagination. So you'll have to find something else to whine about.

[Maple]

71. Your feelings

about straight forward commentary tells me more about you, than economics.

[NorthernSpy]

84. you aren't offering "straight forward commentary"...

... you're offering up all the standard New Economy homiletics and patronizing the hell out of everyone within earshot.

[Maple]

88. I'm afraid it is

its just that you are hearing it as patronizing...perhaps you hear everything in life that way.

I've no doubt your misperceptions cause you a great deal of trouble.

[genieroze]

53. Just do like I do, put em on ignore.

[Maple]

54. Covering your ears is rarely useful

5 years from now you'll be saying....'where did that freight train that just hit me come from?'

Whooooo wooooooo

[shrike]

63. You have a point, Maple

Economies did go from Agrarian to Industrial, and now we have moved on to the Knowledge age.

Trouble is, many people have no way to take part in this new age. I don't know how it is in Canada, but the U.S. has large populations of people with little to no access to a good education, which is essential in a "Knowledge" age.

And knowledge, IMO, does not always mean computers and white collar jobs. Some of the best jobs today are what we call Gold Collar Jobs -- plumbing, electrical work, home repair; highly skilled trades that pay very well and are in demand.

Trade schools, however, experienced a deep cutback during the Reagan administration and have been struggling ever since.

The situation for the average worker is quite complicated.

[Maple]

72. Many people don't...that's true

and we need a national program to upgrade the education of those that need it.

Plumbers and electricians etc are in demand, but they are regarded as middle class...working class is labor. Backbreaking work usually.

And not everyone can, or wants to be a plumber either...however few want the dead-end, unskilled labor jobs of the past.

[NorthernSpy]

83. and it wouldn't matter if they had...

... because neither you nor any of the prophets of the Knowledge Economy can give a straight answer to the question of what exactly all these millions of retrained poor and working class people will be called upon to do in this supposed Knowledge Age.

[Maple]

89. Mmmm yes

there are long lists of knowledge jobs available.

Google is your friend.

[NorthernSpy]

92. nuh-uh...

Forget Google. Why don't YOU tell us what YOU think these "knowledge jobs" are?

[Maple]

95. I work with it everyday

I don't need to google it.

But you do....or you'll be accusing me of lying if I post them.

Hey, if you don't want to work in the future, it's your choice.

It won't affect me either way.

I'm trying to warn people what's coming straight for the US...but if you'd rather argue with me about reality, then you'll have to deal with the massive hit you'll take.

[NorthernSpy]

101. nope -- I wanna hear it from your lips...

What do YOU think these "knowledge jobs" are?

Tell us, pretty please?

[Maple]

109. LOL no you don't

You'll just quibble about something else then.

You've long since passed the stage where you're even on subject, much less on topic.

You just want to take your hatred of change and globalism out on someone, and I'm handy today.

[shrike]

115. Guess we have a different notion of what constitutes labor

Most of the craftsmen I know regard themselves as blue-collar, working class. Guess it might be a cultural thing.

As for what jobs people want or don't want -- people want to be paid well, first and foremost, I think. There are many people who are not in the job of their dreams, but pursue the work because it brings home a good buck.

[GayCanuck]

74. We don't have quite

the problem with institutional racism that the US has due to much lower minority populations in Canada, but if we did, our social programs would be much more equipped to deal with it.

[Blue_Tires]

91. welcome to DU!!

[Neshanic]

90. I know a Canadian couple, she was a contract nurse....

she was horrified at the way things are done, and the almost complete lack of care for a patient that has give way to making all forms are filled out correctly, and a non caring attitude as soon as her patients were "booted" out the door.

She asked about how elderly people in her care got home after treatments when they obviously did not have anyone, or home care if they needed it. She was told it's their problem when they leave.

They stayed a year, then when the contract ended, left immediately.

[IndyJones]

103. Probably a dumb question/statement, but I assume Canada

has their fair share of the same problem??? Do they not?

[Maple]

111. Poor? Yes, Canada has poor people

Although our definition of poor is different than yours, and no one in Canada needs to BE poor...and certainly not homeless.

We have a generous welfare system, plus job training, and free and low cost housing.

[arikara]

119. I will give you a more realistic answer

Indy...yes, there are many many poor people in Canada. There is a growing population that lives on the streets and a growing number of the working poor that are working full time and don't make enough to pay the bills because of wages that don't keep in line with the cost of living. A walmart or mcdonalds wage simply does not pay the bills. And the politicians glow on about all of the jobs that are created but the fact is that most of the jobs pay crappy wages.

New "knowlege" jobs such as call centres for AT&T that have been moved out of the US taking your jobs away have opened up here. They pay a whopping $10 hr plus offer a long commute out of the city to get there. Try paying for daycare and maintaining a home on that.

The lines at the food banks have grown astronomically especially in provinces that adopted an American approach to welfare and assistance. Such as BC where I live and I know this for a fact because I have a connection with the food banks. Sure... there is some assistance for housing for some people but not enough by any stretch of the imagination.

I know about the poverty in the US having travelled around some of the states. Alabama, Mississipi, even parts of California were no better off than places in Central America. But we in Canada have our sad places too.

Perhaps a few too many of us have indulged in the koolaid and believe that the poverty is self induced and the poor only need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get themselves a fine new job. Try getting a job when you don't have a place to live, don't have enough to eat, you're sick, depressed, and dirty. Even walmart won't look at you in that condition.

[Lisa]

120. and also, there are many aboriginal communities with high poverty rates

Arikara and I live in the same town. There are First Nations reserves less than an hour's drive from here where many people are poor and unemployed. Ironically, this is a provincial capital -- where the neo-conservative government in charge has adopted many of Bush's techniques.

Several years ago, I witnessed an evacuation of several native communities from the path of a wildfire in northern Manitoba. The level of confusion, lack of understanding of the evacuees' plight, and callousness by the authorities in charge was shocking. This was a rural area, and fortunately this involved hundreds rather than tens of thousands of people, or things would have gotten much worse, very quickly. I can easily see how the situation in New Orleans could have happened, extrapolating from what I saw.

[Maple]

122. I agree

many First Nations communities are dreadful. Some do very well, but most have tremendous poverty.

Many govts have tried to solve the problem, and instead often made it worse.

There are education and cultural restraints as well as geographic and certainly racist ones.

The bottom line is, beyond finally settling all the treaties, and there were a lot of them so it takes awhile...there isn't much more to do that hasn't already been tried.

Anyone who has a better answer, or a good solution is certainly welcome to announce it.

[Maple]

121. Call centres are not knowledge jobs

and there is no need to be poor in Canada. We have enough of a social safety net here to help people up and out.

Of course we have poverty, every country does. And of course we can do more, that's always possible.

Let's just not pretend it's worse than it is so we can feel solidarity, and moan 'woe is me.'

Canada is booming economically, and we have thousands of jobs we can't fill. Plenty of them in Alberta alone that they can't find people for, and are calling for help on.

[arikara]

123. I wanted to respond to this yesterday but Shaw quit on me

"Call centres are not knowledge jobs"

Just want to acknowlege that we finally agree on something. Unfortunately thats pretty well all the people who retrained for tech can get after the bottom fell out. I'll tell you right now there are very few good jobs around here and do you really expect everyone to uproot and go to the tar sands of Alberta? The jobs that are being created here are low paying part time that will not support life, or else working in construction that are not suitable for just anyone.

Let's just not pretend it's worse than it is so we can feel solidarity, and moan 'woe is me.'

Maple, the snide remarks just don't help to make your point. It kinda reminds me of when Ralph Klein paid a drunken midnight call on a homeless shelter and yelled at them to get jobs. I don't know where you get your information from about poverty in Canada, but certainly not from from anyone who is working with it. Check the stats with your local food bank. More people who have managed to get jobs and get off welfare are returning because they can't live on their wages. And the higher costs that are coming along with the increased gas prices are going to make it worse. Only the Fraser Institute and governments go on about how rosy it all is here.

[philb]

105. FEMA blocked evacuation aid and relief aid in New Orleans: Summary

http://www.flcv.com/femabloc.html

[TheDonkey]

106. If Toronto's Center City was flooded there would be a lot of poverty

exposed too. This smacks of cultural elitism to me. America does have poverty in the CC's and that's nothing new or outrageous. I've been to Toronto and have walked passed many homeless.

[Maple]

112. Except there is housing for them

and if they choose not to use it, their meals are delivered to them on the street.

Cultural elitism is an American phenom.

[greblc]

110. when will they feel sorry enough to let us move there.

[Maple]

113. If it was up to me....

anytime.

[Mari333]

116. Theres an underbelly in small rural towns all over the US also

The town Im in has poor living in their cars. The megachurches here dont house them, tho. We have people who use wood for heat, and people who are on the backroads living in shacks.

[Tight_rope]

117. "54 percent, believe the government of Prime Minister Paul Martin ...

would have been more effective than the Bush administration if faced with a similar disaster".

Hell, I believe he would have been 99% more effective then the Bush administration if faced with a similar disaster.

As for the Canadians impressions of U.S. society, well they are DAMN RIGHT. It's pathetic how easy it is to see that poverty is very much along race lines. But it's the true. And the truth will set you free.

[AspenRose]

118. My cat's government would have been more effective

If I weren't married I'd SERIOUSLY consider moving to Canada (I have enough points ;-) )

Let me know if y'all need social workers!!! :-)