Evidence Grows-Canada Aided in...Terrorism Suspects (Rendition to) Syria

[Up2Late]

(Sorry, the full New York Times Headline wouldn't fit, so I had to edit it as best I could. The Full Headline is below.)

Evidence Grows That Canada Aided in Having Terrorism Suspects Interrogated in Syria

By CLIFFORD KRAUSS (New York Times)
Published: September 17, 2005

OTTAWA, Sept. 14 - A judicial inquiry here is turning up evidence that Canadian police and intelligence agencies solicited and used information that was obtained from at least four Canadian citizens under torture by foreign intelligence agencies.

The main purpose of the inquiry is to explore the Canadian role in the case of Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian who has emerged as perhaps the most infamous example of the United States policy of rendition, the transfer of terrorism suspects to other nations for interrogations.

Mr. Arar was detained while changing planes in New York and was flown in an American government plane to Jordan and Syria. But three other Canadians whose cases are now coming to light were apparently handled entirely by Canadian authorities.

As part of their investigation of suspected operations of Al Qaeda in Toronto and Ottawa, according to government documents and public testimony by officials, Canadian security agents sought notes from, or suggested questions for, interrogations that Syrian and Egyptian intelligence agencies conducted between 2001 and 2004 with the three other Canadians, who say they were tortured.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/17/international/americas/17canada.html?ex=1284609600&en=ab2d61c8f3dc758a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss>
(more at link above)

[Maple]

1. It has long been suspected

that there was a gung-ho 'rogue group' amongst our RCMP, or more likely in CSIS...007 syndrome and all that...who need to be nailed to the wall for this.

It must never happen again.

[applegrove]

2. In the weeks after 9/11 - who wasn't gun-ho? A lesson to learn from.

[Maple]

3. Most Canadians weren't

Canada was never in any danger.

[applegrove]

4. We were not gung ho for war. We were gun-ho in sympathy and wanted

terrorist cells not to be on our shores.

[Maple]

5. I doubt Canadians

ever considered there might be terrorist cells in our country.

[applegrove]

6. In those first few weeks there were rumours. Plus the millenium bomber

had been caught just in time in the U.S.A.

No - we didn't want to have terrorists. And we did end up rallying for the attack on Afghanistan. Though if we had known that the Taliban had offered up OBL - we may not have gone for that either.

[Maple]

7. I have no sympathy whatever

This is precisely what the Charter of Rights is for. To protect people, not in good times, but when their rights are threatened.

We sent support over Afghanistan because it was UN sanctioned...stupid, but UN sanctioned. We also knew the Taliban had offered Osama if the US produced proof. Mullah Omar had a press conference about it.

The 'millennium bomber' was a great deal of hokum...there are over 300 domestic bombings in the US every year. Y2K was nothing to do with Osama, 911, or anything else.

[applegrove]

8. I've always been much more concerned with the practice of rendition

than with burlap bags. I know abu Ghirab was awful. But it is the rendition that gets me and I don't know the details of that but am sure it is worse - though that depends on the person. I don't really know.

I have no idea if the questions came through American authorities or not. Would seem fitting that torturers would use the fear of isolating you from any help (CANADA) to psychologically hurt you more. That is was sociopaths do all the time to victims. They isolate them to increase the trauma. There is a simple equation for anxiety - you just take away someone's external resources and internal resources and the ability to cope goes down.

I do not doubt that the basis of much intelligence being passed around the world today is from rendition.

I cannot say what happened. I do not know that Canadian authorities were aware of rendition at the time. Or overlooked it. Or were mis-informed. I try not to read anything about the trial. Too awful. I still trust that we will get to the truth - in Canada at least.

[Maple]

11. We'd damn well better get to the bottom of it

There are a lot of moral questions to be answered here:

"Barbara McIsaac, the government's chief lawyer at the inquiry, posed a hypothetical question, asking what Canadian police and intelligence services are to do if they have evidence of an imminent plot to blow up the Canadian embassy in Damascus, the Syrian capital, but they know passing the information along will result in people being tortured.

The bomb plot may threaten many innocent people, so "we give information to the Syrians and we know a lot of people are going to be tortured," Ms. McIsaac said. "Do we not do that, sir?"

In the same vein, she asked, should the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service refuse to accept information obtained by torture that would stop a bombing at Toronto's Bloor subway station?

"That's the moral debate" faced by CSIS officials, Ms. McIsaac said. "And that's a horribly difficult question, isn't it?"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050914/ARAR14/TPNational/TopStories

But that's a helluva lot different than deliberately sending someone to be tortured.

[applegrove]

13. That's the question they always use. As a baseline. Then they

start the debate from there. You hear people like Allan D. from Harvard bring up that question. But that doesn't cover the torture of innocents which result when the enemy is a potential terrorist and refuses to wear a uniform. The assumption in that question is that the person is guilty and about to kill hundreds. I think it is an old question from a time gone by.

I do trust that we will get to the bottom of it in Canada. I think the Allies used torture in WWII. Now there is a case where they had little choice. And I'm sure Canadians were involved in that.

I think alot of people got away with alot by simply calling it a War on Terror. And Canada lives in that world unfortunately.

I think there is an issue with how lives are valued. It seems that lives lost in the U.S.A. to terror are considered more valuable to lives lost to illness. Cause many more die due to shitty health care. So they made a choice there. To choose a few terror victims over millions of poor & middle class. It certainly isn't cheaper to fight terror in perpetual war than it would be to have health care. I'm not advocating no terrorism preparedness or security. Identity cards for all seem like a plan. Cameras - all that stuff. Before torture and war - id cards, cameras, look at emails, whatever.

I don't really think Canada has much room. They either accept intel & send it or get shut out. So how do you stop it? You educate. Because it doesn't work. From what I hear. But then you have to educate the ones who like the perpetual wars for other reasons. And that isn't going to happen. So then you work to defeat them - in a democratic way. And then hopefully adults will get back into power. And look at the issue. And make the choice that aggressive war brings with it so much power of torture - that it does not work. It doesn't make you safe. It makes you enemies. And you can never win an aggressive war. And you beat back the war machine which is corporations who really don't give a shit about torture or anything really - they just want really long markets.

You gotta get control of the machine. Corporations are our tools - the tools of democracies who give them birth through laws. Once humans are in power again. Then you can start asking questions.

Do you know if Canada has a choice to send info or not? I doubt it. I hope we do find out what we need to know. I hope we can stop the practice of rendition against our own citizens. I really hope that choice is still ours to make as Canadians.

Is there anyone else who is being tortured? Or did external do everything they could to stop it?

[Maple]

14. There are no

reported incidents of torture by allies in WWII...beatings, yes, but systematic torture, no.

I agree...thousands die every year in traffic accidents and nobody notices...but if one dies of 'terrorism'....there is an uproar.

I don't think Canada has a problem with 'corporations' or the 'machine' or any of these other things Americans worry about. Too different a country.

Several others have now come forward with similar complaints...which is a good thing, because I want it all cleared up...and STRICT controls in place.

And somebody's ass nailed to the wall on this one.

[applegrove]

16. We have not established that Canada actually knowingly gave info

to torturers of these three. To the USA - yes. Who are torturers. Yes. Now they are. And probably always on the job somewhere outside the U.S. - in tiny little pods - over the last 50 years.

The corporations do not come into play in Canada. They come into play in the U.S.A. The Americans are currently a corporate government. Homeland security represents those big Rummy dreams. So that is the reality our security forces have to deal with.

And what the protocols and security deals are. Or what the choices in the intel exchange deals are. Is it an all or nothing? Do we get it from a Interpol under the classification "only non-tortured garnered intel need be sent"?. So does Canada have a choice to say - U.S.A. - will will not give you this because we think you may torture? Perhaps they are doing this now. Perhaps they were not doing it till 2 years ago. Perhaps this is why we have not heard of other cases.

We still have not established that Canadians were in direct contact with the torturers? I see no direct evidence of that. I doubt torturers are authentic when they open their mouths to speak. I think it is likely scripted.

We don't know.

I hope we find out.

I think policy has likely changed due to the results of so many people the world over underestimating Crummy & Creepy & Dopey & Phony, Tin Soldier & Ticker with their intel on war in Iraq. We know they are more Orwellian than we originally thought.

Chretien's people, the same ones who you talk about today perhaps, looked at the intel they were given by Americans on reasons for invading Iraq and said "this follows no previously known pattern on intelligence presentation" and we didn't invade Iraq. Aren't you happy. I hated Saddam. I fell for most of it. Glad these guys didn't. Somebody was doing there job.

[Spazito]

25. We certainly know enough to know CSIS, the RCMP and it's rogue

group were very much involved in this to our,and their, shame. The federal government's 'looking the other way' on this issue is also very clear, very telling and must be called to account as well.

[applegrove]

27. No we don't. We have no proof that Canadians were involved in

the questions during rendering. We only know what the torturers said to the prisoners. Don't you think torturers might lie to up the psychological pressure? "Even your country Canada is with us and they want to hurt you".

Explain why there has not been accounts of torture of Canadians since?

[Spazito]

28. I disagree, it is clear there was collusion between certain agencies

in Canada and the Syrians. One only has to read the legal defense put forward by the government lawyer regarding use of torture to see there was collusion. There was a recent article detailing this defense being put forward.

Actually, there is a Canadian still in Gitmo who is saying he has been tortured and the Canadian government is stonewalling on that one too.

[Maple]

30. Why would they be stonewalling?

It's not easy to get someone out of Gitmo you know.

It's done either by all-out war, or by diplomatic pressure.

Which would you prefer?

Diplomatic pressure takes time and effort...if someone isn't produced overnight it doesn't mean the govt is 'stonewalling'

You think the govt WANTS a Canadian in Gitmo?

[Spazito]

31. They certainly don't seem adverse to it, given the length of time

he has been in there without legal representation, etc. Diplomacy is only as effective as the intent behind it and it seems our diplomatic efforts have been less than effective. One has to wonder why?

[Maple]

32. Again...why would they want such a thing??

It's bad politically, and it's bad nationally.

Don't attribute motives to others without logical reasons.

There are lots of people in Gitmo...not just Canadians, none of them have legal representation, and all of them are having a hard time getting out.

This is a young man nabbed in a violent act...not some middle-aged shopkeeper swept up by accident.

Innocent or guilty...it'll take awhile.

[Spazito]

33. LOL, speaking of attributing motives, you have NO evidence

as to what the Canadian may or may not have done yet you are quite content to assume he was 'nabbed in a violent act' based on (gasp) the say-so of the cohorts of the bush admin who have provided NO evidence and, indeed, have not had a trial of any kind in the FOUR years he has been there.

As to ascribing motives to the government, I have not. I have, however, posed the question as to the lack of effort of the government on this issue. It is a valid question which has not received an answer as yet. When one takes the Arar case and the government's lack of action on that case and adds the length of time it has been regarding the incarceration of the Canadian in Gitmo, one can surmise speedy action on these two cases was not and is not on the top of the agenda. Again, one must ask, why not?

[Maple]

34. It made news headlines

and that's all we have to go on.

The govt is making an effort...you just want it done yesterday.

[Spazito]

35. Please provide links that would show they are making an effort

I would very much appreciate seeing them. I must have missed reading about their prodigious efforts and would like to remedy that with whatever knowledge you have on this issue.

[Maple]

36. Please provide links that prove they are not

C'mon Spaz, be serious tonight. Private talks between foreign affairs diplomats and lawyers from 2 countries don't have urls.

However, if you have any suggestions as to how they can do it quicker, short of an invasion, I'm sure they'd be glad to hear from you

[Spazito]

37. Ahhh, I see, I posed a question you attempted to answer by saying

'tis so cause I say tis so' and I am supposed to accept that, roflmao. I can only surmise you have no links to provide ergo I guess I didn't miss reading up on their efforts because there is nothing to read about.

I see you and I have a free Saturday night to fence which is okay by me, rofl.

[Maple]

38. You posed no question at all

nor did you make any effort to google the news headlines about the person you claim to be so concerned about.

I never 'fence' with people under the influence of a full moon. Come the dawn, they return to normal.

[Spazito]

39. Hmmm, Sadly, I have to accept you are not in my league re fencing

I will go in search of a more worthy opponent, one who can actually provide links to back up their 'truths' instead of showing a lack of even a basic understanding as to what constitutes a question. Alas, it has been somewhat amusing but not educational, lol.

[Maple]

40. I left the plastic swords back in kindergarten

You don't even know the person's name fer pete's sake, yet here you've gone on for post after post...

I, however, fence without buttons m'friend, so no I'm not in your league.

I accept your surrender.

[Up2Late]

41. Here are a few links to articles that mention or are about this case

Not here to fence, just to provide links.

I found them by doing a "Quick Search" of his name (Maher Arar) at Axis of Logic .com <http://www.axisoflogic.com/>, which is an amazing site for hard to find and "no longer available" news articles and links. The original location of the article is at the bottom of the "Axis of Logic" re-print:

<http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/8822>

<http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=59&num=7619>

<http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=59&num=7619&printer=1>

<http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=59&num=7203>

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,1237650,00.html>

[CHIMO]

29. Seems

That they weren't looking the other way. See my post #26.

Looks like instructions were given, perhaps without foreign affairs knowledge, to provide whatever it takes. Of course the "flat feet" are restricted from releasing information and hopefully the commissioner will have heard all the evidence and take the appropriate action.

If I remember correctly it was the "beaker" who was leading the charge for JC.

[Up2Late]

9. "...300 domestic bombings in the US every year...?"Were did you here that?

Not saying you making it up, but I've never heard that before.

But of course, the U.S. Media (and the U.S. Government) doesn't tell us a lot of things.

Your probably thinking of all the "Meth" labs that explode each year.

[applegrove]

10. Meth labs & clinics & those mountain men with fear in their hearts

and not much else to go on in life. Kids? Doesn't every school have a story of a kid who blew up his face while playing with gasoline?

I don't know what they meant. Drug dealers with Pipe bombs? Could be.

[Maple]

12. I doubt you know

how many bombings occur in the US every year until there's a biggie like Timothy McVeigh....however between rightwing loons like him, and leftwing loons like eco-terrorists...and just plain loons...there are approx 300 a year in the US.

It has nothing to do with meth labs...just lack of a central reporting agency like a news network to report them all.

It becomes 'local stuff'. Or quickly forgotten like the guy putting pipebombs in people's mailboxes...we never did find out why.

Hell they never even got the anthrax guy/bunch.

[lovuian]

15. Are we going to invade Canada next!!! I want the Maple syrup!!!

Those dang Terrorists!!! they have Maple Syrup and we're coming for it!!!

[applegrove]

17. Not funny. The neocons in the USA actually tried to use that fear

to shatter the bond between the left party & the Liberal Party in Canada. The Neocon Party (Conservatives) saw a chance to win an election (they don't care how) and their pals in the US started with propaganda "boy - Canadians should really be afraid of the US - they told me they want to invade". Which - if anybody cared about David Frumm - could have activated all sorts of fears in those of us who are social lefties. Which meant they couldn't have worked with well with the Liberals. But they ignore it and hung together with the Liberals to defeat the motion to defeat the government by the Conservatives.

Didn't work.

So not funny. I know it wasn't you in particular.

I'm sure that that particular "fear" will be set on fire under the left in our country at some future junction. You Americans - you love to dole out various fears for particular people - to wedge.

Silly gooses.

[Up2Late]

20. O.K., Don't start making generalities of "You Americans..."

Try to keep proper perspective. All that fear crap is coming from the RW Fascists that currently control the U.S. News Media and U.S. Government.

They make up maybe 5% of Americans, 60% to 65% never or no longer supported them or their RW propaganda.

And because of the RW Corporations that control our Voting machines and, more importantly, our Vote counting machines, people like me here in Georgia, no longer (if ever) have our votes, against these jerks, counted.

The other 30% to 35% that believe their crap are just a bunch of stupid and greedy Lemmings. They are mostly lost to the RW regardless of what they do.

[applegrove]

23. Oh I know - but who wants your psychopaths messing with our elections.

We have issues and things we want to accomplish in this country. Having an election in the middle of Gomery could have really risked Quebec. The power-hungry don't care they just on and on with their psychotic aggression and insistence that they deal only with patsy followers in foreign governments.

It is an issue. I believe your votes were not taken from machines but suppressed in all sorts of manners. And that now they use the fact you don't trust them or machines - to separate you from the other Dems in the big Dem tent. They dole out various bits and pieces of fears and depending on who we are we will belived them. Who knows if the machines were actually toyed with. They do their job of apathy and keeping resolve to boot Neocons & Rovbots out of office were well. What will happen when you volunteer with the Dems and show up only to stand beside a moderate who thinks (and for reasons just as reasonable to her) you are kooky for believing the votes will be erased by machine?

How exactly are you supposed to go door to door together?

See how it works? I don't want happy & long-standing bonds between me and the groups that matter to me to be destroyed - all because Karl Rove was born missing certain portions of his brain and the humanity encased in that. I love my people & the people in my country. If I need a changed realtionship with them - I will decide. Not some person who is not in ANY OF OUR LIVES.

And, unfortunately, having been unknowingly in the plans of a sociopath in my personal life, from the age of 23 o 30 - and then having figured it out at 30 and moved and moved and moved since, I don't want to see that happen to my country. The fear doled out to various people to protect his aggressive sickness and desire for control. As lives crash up against each other - not like in a social revolution where there is change everywhere and then all have had a chance to adapt and it settles, but in an on-going hurricane of frenzied moves to wrench apart what works well and people who love each other - in a cycle that will never settle until the sociopath is out of power. They said the Twin Towers fell - and it was like a blender in there. Well that is what having sociopaths running your country is like. And I don't want to see it happen to me or mine again. And I don't want to see it happen to you.

[glarius]

18. This New York Times writer is anti-Canadian, I believe

The person who wrote this N.Y. Times article seems to have it in for Canada....I remember a while back reading another article he wrote in the Times painting Canada in a bad light and using Canadian right wingers as his sources...I saw him on TV somewhere once also, pounding away at his message that Canada is not as nice as you think it is....I sort of get the impression that he's out to make us look bad....Of course we're not perfect....but we're not so bad either....

[Up2Late]

19. I'd love to move to Canada, if it wasn't so cold there in the winter.

I was born across the river from Canada (Port Huron, Michigan, but lived in St.Clair, Michigan) and grew up 2 miles South of the Michigan/Indiana line in Elkhart, so snow doesn't bother me.

But now that I've lived in the South for so long, you begin to get used to short, mild, winters. Why can Canada go take over some Caribbean Island or something?:shrug:

[glarius]

21. Funny you should say that....the Turks and Caicos Islands has sent

delegations up here a couple of times to see if they could become a province of Canada...For some reason our government has not (at least, so far) taken them up on it....As a matter of fact I wrote to my local Member of Parliament recommending it and pointing out how it would be good for our people who want to go to warmer climes in the winter....They would use our money and it would be good all around for the economy, I believe....He wrote me back and said he agreed with me and would look into it....Nothing happened...They are still talking....blah, blah, blah....

[Robeson]

22. Are they requesting full provinicial status?...

...perhaps thats a stumbling block. Just asking?..:shrug:

[applegrove]

24. The stumbling block was that the people would then be entitled to

full social services and hospitals would have to be immediately staffed & built, etc. To meet Canadian standards. I think it would have been a go even then - even with the cost - except that the majority of Canadians who holiday in the South don't go anywhere near Turks & K. So it wouldn't pay off that way.

Plus we would have to send coastguard and navy frigates down there.

But oh - didn't every single Canadian have lovely daydreams of moving south... while the topic was up for discussion.

[CHIMO]

26. Arar's troubles rooted in Cold War

When Maher Arar touched down at New York's Kennedy Airport on Sept.26, 2002, he could not have imagined the forces at play that would wreck his life.

In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, official Ottawa was in a panic. It was not so much the thought of a similar attack on Canada that kept ministers awake at night. Rather, it was a fear that a U.S. government newly mindful of its security needs might delay truck traffic at the border.

To speed up the flow of information to the U.S., the RCMP's anti-terrorist unit was told to bypass Canada's foreign affairs department and work directly with the American embassy.

(Indeed, even if the data had been vetted beforehand, it is not clear this would have made much difference. RCMP Sgt. Richard Flewelling testified that the practice of applying so-called caveats, or warnings, to shared information involved little more than rubber-stamping the raw intelligence with a note advising recipients that it was Mountie property.)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1126821022263&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

(Free registration required)

Also points out a relationship between Syria and the US re undercover.