British Attack Basra Jail to Free Two

[malachi]

Short AP story. More of that winning hearts and minds stuff, old chap.

BASRA, Iraq (AP) - British forces using tanks broke down the walls of the central jail in the southern city of Basra late Monday and freed two Britons, allegedly undercover commandos, who had been arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen.

Witnesses said about 150 Iraqi prisoners also fled the jail.

Violence flared earlier in the day as demonstrators hurled stones and Molotov cocktails at British tanks; at least four people were killed.

The fighting erupted after British armor encircled the jail where the two Britons were being held. During the melee one soldier could be seen scrambling for his life from a burning tank and the rock-throwing mob.

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20050919/D8CNHCHG6.html?PG=home&SEC=news

[BSDRebel]

1. wait a minute...

you mean British soldiers just violated the sovereignty of the new Iraqi government, attacked an official government building, and released 150 prisoners...just because 2 British soldiers were being held for questioning?

I'm sorry, this is completely unacceptable. How can you claim to be liberating a people and helping them establish a democracy, if you won't submit to prosecution when your soldiers commit shady acts like go dressed in an Arab costume, with bombs in your possession?

I'm really offended and angry. How DARE they blow up those walls and free all the prisoners? :grr: :argh:

[Frederik]

4. Those two were not ordinary soldiers

Apparently, it was extremely urgent to get these two undercover SAS/MI6 operatives out of there.

They were accused by Iraqi police of planting bombs.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[librechik]

20. I think we've finally nabbed the BFEE in the act

of their irrefutable drive to incite violence by causing it.

Guess nobody wold ask to leave Iraq if "the job isn't done."

With guys like this on the job, it will never get done.

[librechik]

24. it's a good thing the Iraqis are an independent sovereign government

and not an occupied country. Otherwise this would just look like we took over and gave them the finger. Let Freedom Rain!

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

21. the bombing and terror is British Sponsored? at least some of it?

? Two British agents who were planting terrorist bombs got caught and the whistle was about to be blown?
?There was an urgency to break out these prisoners?
Why?
Because the world was about to find out that these so called terrorists who are blowing up targets in Iraq are actually the British and the American "commandos"? and NOT just Al Qaida?

Someone help me out here.

[MisterP]

29. um, yes

[Just Me]

35. Intentional destabilization has been suspected by m-a-n-y!!!

This situation has given some validation to those suspicions.

[0007]

41. Is this part of the Negroponte "Death Squad"? Just what in the

fuck is going on?

[fedsron2us]

46. A very good question

and one which I am sure Blair has no intention of answering. The BBC Newsnight presenter, Jeremy Paxman, described the events at the jail as 'beyond parody'. If the whole Iraq fiasco was not such a huge tragedy these scenes would be laughable. One thing is certain Britain only has 8,500 troops in the Basra area so if the place erupts into full scale rebellion they have absolutely no chance of sustaining their position unless vast quantities of extra manpower are deployed. This simply does not exist in the British army so US troops may well get sucked into the situation. It needs to be remembered that the ports in the Shia south of Iraq are vital to the maintenance of the whole occupation. Lose them and the position in the rest of Iraq will quickly become completely untenable.

[malaise]

54. According to the BBC report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm

they were undercover agents. Now is the Britsh Army officially involved in attacks against the Iraqipolce and civilians. This is some serious $hit.
snip -

MoD officials insist they have been talking to the Iraqi authorities to secure the release of the men - who were reported to be working undercover.

But they do acknowledge a wall was demolished as UK forces tried to "collect" the men Iraqi police accused of firing on them.

[Tight_rope]

77. Bingo!....You are damn right.

I did find it strange that the Iraq's would continue to blow themselves up all for the sake of freedom and getting the American's out. :spank:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

98. But that would be a CONSPIRACY THEORY!!!

[anotherdrew]

43. "accused of planting bombs" OMFG

this is not going to go down well. Rumors just got catapulted to fact in the minds of most iraqi's as they hear about this. From now on we will be blamed for every explosion.

[radwriter0555]

117. LOL! You think the iraqis are blowing themselves up? Or, let me guess,

that some FOREIGN nationals have come all the way to iraq, for no pay, with no food, and with their own ammunition to KILL IRAQIS?

Not a logical tack, is it?

It doesn't really make sense for foreign nationals to be ASSISTING THE US TROOPS in killing iraqis, now... does it?

[anotherdrew]

122. and now the mask has slipped and who can keep pretending?

I don't think many iraqi's. The jig is up.

[malaise]

53. BBC is spinning away

They say conflicting reports. Looks like MI5. How many other Iraqi police have they and the Special Ops killed.

Good coverage of events as they occured today. Man they were pelted from those tanks today. Soldiers on fire jumping from tanks - very graphic.

This is a serious story. It will only fuel more anti-war protests in Britain. Defence officals story differ from official Iraqi report.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm
Watch the news in the link.

[dave420]

150. You did read the article, right?

Well, it agrees with lots more reports from the area, including one I just heard on NPR, where journalists visiting the area have been "escorted" by the police, and wound up dead. Also, did it not strike you as weird how people could be arrested by the Basra police, and end up in the custody of a militia? It seems that rival militias might be infiltrating the Basra police force, and using it to further their own agendas.

[malaise]

157. Yes this looks very serious

but is no surprise to me. The Brits have a history of playing one side against the other.

[Henny Penny]

59. Important to get them out and to cover their faces so the folks

back home can't recognise them.... I wonder why especially now they've been rescued and their pics are all over the internet...?

[shadowknows69]

62. IED type bombs?

hmmm.....the things that were already clear to me are somehow clearer now.

[radwriter0555]

116. I've said from the BEGINNING that the bombs were NOT being planted by iraq

nationals.

I guess I'm not talking out my ass after all.

"I told you so" #10,298

[Henny Penny]

50. Come on BSD... how else are you gonna get a civil war going???

No civil war means no dividing the country into three... 2 bits with oil where the people are happy that you've freed them from those nasty sunnis... who luckily mostly live in the part with no oil and who can be blamed for all the bombings....

And in an interesting coincidental development another group of undercover operatives have claimed responsibility for the London bombings... synchronicity or what!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262392.stm

[Maple]

2. Unfortunately this will teach the Iraqis

that the next time they catch any Brits to kill them outright, and not leave them sitting around in a jail that can be 'liberated'.

[Mandate My Ass]

3. It'll also teach em

that white lives are much more valuable than brown ones in case they haven't been paying attention of late. :eyes:

[BSDRebel]

6. yeah,

so much for the rule of law and justice.

How can the British pretend to lecture the iraqis on justice when they won't allow their soldiers to be prosecuted? Rule of law is fine and dandy, but when it targets you, the rule of force is acceptable?

Learn Iraqis, learn.

[Supersedeas]

27. apparently 'bad appl'es'

[Binka]

32. Oh Shit I Had Forgotten That

Just Bad Apples. Like we were talking about fruit or something. Jeebus Crisco. Criminals are now just rotten vegetation? This fucking Bush Blair death squad has got to fucking GO. Like yesterday. Fucking Fucking Fucking Fuckwittages.

[txindy]

36. I'm afraid you're absolutely right

There would be no sense in holding them in a prison that would then be attacked, freeing many inside. And it may not be just the Brits that suffer those consequences, either, particularly if the prisons start getting a bit full.

This is like a twisted video game, now. :crazy:

[FeloniousMonk]

80. I don't think so

From what little I have read, the Iraqis take the liberation of their country seriously, and they won't put up with interference from the Special Forces of "liberators." So they won't commit grievous errors like that. Sorry if that sounds confrontational, but that's my bet.

I am so glad this happened. The press is a few months away from being forced to reveal what they probably already know about the terrorism going on in Iraq.

Yes, I admit to wearing a :tinfoilhat:, but I am :woohoo:ing (which increases the effect of the hat)!

[Nothing Without Hope]

160. Welcome to DU, Felonious!

You should have some special understanding of the creature posing as president, the Felonious Monkey. And all that jazz.

Good to have you in our community! :hi:

[FeloniousMonk]

164. Gee, thanks!

Unfortunately, I can't claim any special understanding of the man you call Chimpy. My moniker was the first play-on-words I thought of. (Apologies to Thelonious.) Instead, I wish I had thought of something like "Dem Agog."

I would like to say that I think some "conservatives" can be reached by Democrats. I think the so-called Libertarians are more likely to side with you against Bush, but that's just a guess based on my limited experience. In any case, the primary barrier between you and the "conservatives" is the ignorance of the latter. I am not being cruel. Some of the "conservatives" are driven by a deep hatred that I can't figure out; you will never reach them, as you probably already know. But the others simply are scared and don't know, for instance, anything about evolution, so they choose to stick with Intelligent Design; don't know much about contraception, so don't understand the difference between "emergency contraception" and "abortion" (which no "conservative" will probably ever accept in his or her lifetime; so you'll get some agreement and maybe even a coalition, but not a complete change of mind). Ignorance and fear, passed from parent to child over generations. Just terrible.

You probably know all this already, but I didn't until recently.

[sabra]

5. Reuters: IRAQI INTERIOR MINISTRY SAYS BRITISH FORCES STORM PRISON IN BASR

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/BAK971467.htm

IRAQI INTERIOR MINISTRY SAYS BRITISH FORCES STORM PRISON IN BASRA TO FREE TWO BRITISH SOLDIERS

[BSDRebel]

7. AND?

how about some righteous indignation and inflamed anger from the Iraqi side?

These Iraqi "leaders" are totally spineless.

[Up2Late]

8. Well, that's one way to handel a "problem" I guess.

Do you know,

1) Who's Jail was it? (U.S., Iraqi, British)

2) Who controls Basra? (U.S., Iraqi, British)

Too bad the AP has forgotten the basics of reporting a News story.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. 1): Iraqi

2): a good question, which can't be answered in a news report. All 3 have a claim to controlling Basra.

[zwielicht]

9. omfg

they attacked the iraqi "authority" prison to free the agent provocateurs?!?

(Two British soldiers dressed as Arabs arrested over killing: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4819548&mesg_id=4819548
Two British soldiers detained by Iraqi police: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1790931&mesg_id=1790931)


The madmen giving orders like this have to be stopped, now!!

I think even most right wingers and even military folks would agree by now!

[BSDRebel]

13. sadly,

they wouldn't. If they knew these were agent provocateurs, and saving them would save the face of the U.S. image in Iraq, they'd support it in service of the higher cause of winning the war in Iraq.

They are unable to admit that the tactics they use are wrong.

[Village Idiot]

10. Remember now...

Coalition troops CANNOT be tried by Iraqi authorities NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO...

[Shipwack]

65. By the Coalition's own definition, these aren't "troops"

"Troops" are part of an organized army and have those spiffy color coordinated uniforms. That's why we don't have to apply the Geneva Conventions to those "insurgents" and "terrorists" in Afghanistan and Iraq.

For that matter,according to the (military) training I just took, even in a time of war, if I'm not in uniform and I attack something and get caught, I'm not covered by the Geneva Convention, either. Don't know what the British policy is, but can't see it being much different.

[wtmusic]

133. This uniform idea is a myth

Nowhere in the Geneva Conventions does it say you have to be in uniform to be "covered". No only are non-uniformed combatants covered, but civilians and prisoners as well. Everyone.

[dave420]

149. Correct

That's exactly correct. If you want to be "undercover" and active military, you need to wear your uniform under your civvies, otherwise you're technically a spy.

I read that the brit troops were investigating the usurption of the Basra police force by militias. Apparently, journalists have been found dead after being "escorted" by the local cops, and these guys were trying to figure out what's going on.

I think it's too early to know exactly what's going on concerning these guys. Certainly, there is a good chance they were doing something fucked up, but there's also a chance they were doing something desperately needed. If Basra's police can't be trusted, Basra is not worthy for human inhabitation.

As usual, I'm gonna wait for all the facts to come in before judging anyone.

[wtmusic]

151. Not true

So much misinformation about uniforms. Under GC you are "active military" whether you are in uniform, your bathrobe, or buck naked--as long as you are "taking an active part in hostitilies".

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

[jimshoes]

103. These two were operating

outside the cloak of sanctioned operations, no? They are not protected legally even if it is some kind of quasi legality imposed by coalition authorities since they are operating out of uniform? Are they not by definition, enemy combatants now?

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. I can't wait to see Blair spin this one

:popcorn:

[Just Me]

14. Whew, yikes!

Sp ops caught creating the conditions for civil chaos/division/violence? Then, "coalition" forces attack Iraqi police & jail to free these men.

Yikes!!! Those who have long suspected an intentional imposition of violence intended to create chaos and a civil war will now have their suspicions validated by this little gem of a circumstance.

My guess, the insurgency will gain even further strength and support from the Iraqi police force.

We need to leave. We do NOT belong there. We will NOT control/exploit that nation. There WILL be too many deaths, too much lost on this BushCo/neoCON "venture".

C'mon Fitz,...indict these bastards, NOW!!!

[QuettaKid]

17. kick. nt.

.

[spuddonna]

16. Holy crap!

This is a new level of insanity, even for these crazy birds...

So, these two were undercover - check.

They shot Iraqi police and were captured - wtf?!

Then Britain sends TANKS TO BREAK DOWN THE JAIL THEY'RE BEING HELD IN?!! What happened to 'we're here to help spread democracy' and 'we're here at the request of the Iraqi people'?

Yes, must get these 'undercover' agents out of there... Who knows what kind of dirty secrets they might spill to the press or local police, especially the police they were shooting at...

[Charlie Brown]

18. What in the world?

If the two "commandos" shot police officers, the Iraqis in Basra have every right to hold them accountable. Besides that, why the British military decided brute force was necessary to free these two guys eludes me completely.

The bad press from this raid will do far more damage to Britain's reputation in Iraq than these two being held in a jail, no matter how important they are.

[tgnyc]

19. holy fuckin' shit!

What the fuck is going on with these mofos?

[killbotfactory]

22. Brilliant PR move

BTW, is there any difference between an "enemy combatant" and "undercover soldier"?

[western mass]

25. of course there is, silly

Enemy combatant = brown

Undercover soldier = white

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. This is obviously Blair's Iraq exit strategy ...

[anotherdrew]

44. you may be right, the british forces are spread very thin

I hope they are all 'in a hightened state of alert'

this is NOT going to go over well. that being said, I don't think blair has any desire to leave iraq, his mind is fully controlled it seems by the bush cabal.
(unless he's just cleverly playing along to gather information and wait 'til the time is just right to unleash it all. )

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. I actually meant it as a joke

'jail break' - 'exit strategy'. Oh well, it seemed funny to me ...

[anotherdrew]

49. LOL - I get it now...

"there's gonna be a basra breakout"!


after this though... I wouldn't be surpsied if the iraqi "government" asks british forces to leave pronto. what would blair do then? the british troops I thought were getting along ok with the locals, that has now changed 180 degrees I'd expect.

[ellie]

26. What?

Are these the insurgents we have been hearing so much about?

[killbotfactory]

33. They say that about 2% are foreigners

I didn't think they meant the British...

[Binka]

28. Hey Tony....Yeah You Tony....This Is Really Fucked Up

So Tony you have two chaps, purportedly British military but wearing civies, no check that, posing as Arabs, with bombs in their vehicle, killing Iraqi police officers, and two tanks already burned to the ground, BUT you decide that sending in additional force to mow down the walls of the jail is a good idea.

Did you ask Bush for advice? This is a MAJOR fucking clusterfuck. Blair the LIAR has much explaining to do.

[daninthemoon]

30. Is this the turning point? Is the hypocracy unveiled?

I saw the burning tank and crowd on CNN, but didn't catch what was going on. Set me straight, here. Two British "coalition" spies planted a bomb, got caught, shot two Iraqi "coalition" policemen, and then the British used tanks to attack the jail and killed (I assume) some more Iraqi police and civilians? Is that about it?

[Frederik]

34. That's about it

Though there are conflicting reports about the bomb or bombs. Explosives were probably found in their vehicle, not actually planted.

[slaveplanet]

Well

not actually planted.

If they were wearing arab clothing and in a civilian vehicle... they have no business having bombs......they are as good as planted in that circumstance and Blair knew it

[confludemocrat]

78. We don't know some weren't actually planted. Who would bet against it?!

This is truly fits the term FUBAR. We probably don't know the half of it.

[warrens]

40. Trying to turn Iraqis against the insurgency?

And caught in the act? And then they let 150 insurgents escape while they're bashing down the walls?

Wow, this is REALLY something. Our press won't touch this, but the Brits sure will. I can't wait to hear the BBC news tonight.

[sabra]

31. BRITISH EMBASSY CONFIRMS TWO BRITISH SOLDIERS FREED FROM JAIL IN IRAQI CIT

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/ALI971469.htm

BRITISH EMBASSY CONFIRMS TWO BRITISH SOLDIERS FREED FROM JAIL IN IRAQI CITY OF BASRA

[daninthemoon]

37. Freedom marches on

[cureautismnow]

38. A more accurate headline should read ...

"British Attack Basra Jail to Free Two British Terrorists."

This is wacky nu nu.

:crazy:

[karlrschneider]

39. Freedom can be untidy.

Was that Rummy's quote?...or was it 'democracy', or maybe it's another unknown unknown...
:eyes:

[stickdog]

163. classic (nt)

[leftofthedial]

42. things are going well in the Coalition, eh georgie?

[bobbieinok]

45. did you notice the eyes of the 2? pics in 'they were not ordinary soldiers

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. How do ordinary soldiers' eyes differ?

Honestly, I can't fathom DU's recent obsession with determining people's profession or fitness for the Supreme Court by their eyes. Is this the start of a new craze, like phrenology?

[fedsron2us]

55. Well you could not see their eyes on the BBC

because their faces had been blurred out on the pictures. The fact the media in the UK have taken this step suggests that they were members of the SAS or some other military intelligence unit. Ordinary squaddies seldom get this level of protection. Of course, since the photographs are all over the internet the whole exercise is pointless.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. Well, if that's what the poster meant

then it would make some sense - but I thought they meant the eyes in the web pictures were "weird". Just as numerous threads had recently said John Roberts had strange eyes.

[fedsron2us]

70. I understand your point

Quite why people feel the need to call upon the methods of the discredited Cesare Lombroso to determine peoples motives from their faces is beyond me. You would have thought the story was quite sensational enough not to require any further embellishment.

[ret5hd]

51. they don't look any different from the eyes of IRA bombers...

that i've seen at various times in news photos.

[Henny Penny]

52. you know... you might be on to something there!! n/t

[slaveplanet]

69. Bingo

we have a winner!

[radwriter0555]

118. And no different from the israeli mossad, whom we've also seen in photos..

"Paging Daniel Pearl..."

[Massachusetts]

57. Mission Accomplished

Freedom on the march....hut, hut..two three, for....

[ClintonTyree]

58. This is rather amusing.......

"We remain committed to helping the Iraqi government for as long as they judge that a coalition presence is necessary to provide security. "The situation in Basra is currently calmer after a day of disturbances. At this stage it is not possible to be certain why these disturbances began."

With friends like these, who needs enemas? :shrug:

[Minstrel Boy]

60. The UK spin: "What jail break?"

UK says 2 soldiers freed in Iraq after talks
(15 minutes ago)

LONDON - Britain denied reports on Monday that its troops stormed a prison in southern Iraq to free two British soldiers, saying the pair were released after negotiations.

"We‘ve heard nothing to suggest we stormed the prison," a defense ministry spokesman in London said. "We understand there were negotiations."

An Iraqi interior ministry official earlier said British tanks smashed into a prison in Basra to free two undercover British soldiers seized on Monday by Iraqi forces. The official said British troops using half a dozen tanks stormed the jail, allowing dozens of Iraqi prisoners to escape during the raid.

...

Defense spokesman:

"The situation in Basra is currently calmer after a day of disturbances. At this stage it is not possible to be certain why these disturbances began."



http://www.leadingthecharge.com/stories/news-0074549.html

[BSDRebel]

61. oh get out of here!

Are you serious? Seriously, did anyone take video or photos of the attack? All we need is that evidence, and the Brits will have to tell the truth.

[malaise]

63. Pictures

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4262346.stm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article313705.ece

Edit - add link.

[bemildred]

73. I want pitchers of the demolished jail.

That will shut people up.

[malaise]

75. The best I can do for now

is post this link. Click Watch Basra clashes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm

Am still looking for a pix with the wall.

[confludemocrat]

79. take a look at the Patrick Cockburn article below the Independent pics

entitled: "The British Army's authority has never looked more fragile"

[malaise]

84. They have reaped what they sowed

chaos. Get out of Iraq.

[shadowknows69]

64. No they don't

Bush hasn't. There have been mountains of evidence against them but if they say it didn't happen, it didn't happen.

Those look like some pretty intense "talks"

[FighttheFuture]

146. Are you serious?!! "...then they would have to tell the truth"?!

Deny, deny, deny, deceive, obfuscate, etc. Never tell the truth, for it will set you free (of your life).

[anotherdrew]

67. "released after negotiations" wow they're trying to re-write on-the-fly

"released after negotiations"

our first subject today class:

expedited negotiations, with tank.

I wonder if the Iraqi's who busted these guys got away with any evidence. Surely the "arresting officers" are not walking around anymore? I hope they got pictures, video, sound recordings and Far Away; 'cause I would imagine there is a certain amount of 'diplomatic' pressure being applied now to make sure no iraqi policemen talk. I hope there's solid info out.

[Laurab]

111. I think that's been the definition of "expedited negotiations"

for a while now - with tank, guns, bombs. That's how we "expedited negotiations" when we invaded Iraq - no sense in talking when you can "expedite" things. I'm wondering if the Brits would have done this without talking to our fearful leader, if this was the major screw-up it appears to be. Either way it's terrifying to me. I mean, I think I put nothing beneath these people, and WHAM I get surprised again.

I hope, as you do, that there is solid info out there, and since SOME places still have a free press, there's probably a good chance.

I dunno - until I read your post, I was speechless after reading about this. I don't really have a point - I am just so frigging disgusted with what is being done in our name day after day, and I keep looking for signs of hope that it will be over soon....I do hope this gets major coverage.

[anotherdrew]

123. I am in shock and awe of the shear mendacity of it all

this is really way beyond belief, this is absolutely the last thing that needed to happen in iraq.

Please won't some sane people put an end to such asinine stratagems as this? It's beyond words how lame it is if this is truly as it appears. Thing is - even if they weren't planting bombs... no one's ever gonna doubt they were now - this is the truth now, the goose is cooked. This has got to be the "worst case scenario." How is any westerner even going to be able to walk around?

[wtmusic]

135. You and me both

We must stay on top of this story. It could be the dealbreaker for the whole Iraqi occupation, which has operated solely on the idea of good intent. Once that is gone...

[wtmusic]

134. 'collected' is the current term for busting down a wall with a tank nt

[Julius Civitatus]

66. But... but... I thought Iraq was now a NATION OF LAWS...

....and that it's all super-duper democratic down there... and that we have created a reliable governmental system in Iraq....

</wingnut head exploding mode>

[anotherdrew]

68. LAWS = L ight A nti-tank W eapon S ystem

FYI
CYA
PDQ

[Straight Shooter]

71. If this were a movie, the audience would be screaming "No F'ing way!"

The Invasion of Iraq, what led up to it, what has happened there, what continues to happen there, is the most twisted and sadistic version of the "spread of democracy" we may ever witness in our lives.

The hidden agenda needs to be exposed. The sooner, the better.

[Cocoa]

72. life in sovereign Iraq

[Bravo411]

74. Besides these guys ...

I wonder how many of the Blackwater guys are doing the same thing?

Posted By Bravo411
http://bravo411.blogspot.com

[Rude Horner]

76. I'm a little slow sometimes

I hadn't ever given any thought to the insurgency being homegrown. But ya know, it doesn't surprise me. Nothing surprises me anymore.

So what are we theorizing here? Are we (America and Britian) fueling the insurgency on purpose? Are WE planting some of the bombs? And why? Believe me, this is not a smart ass question. Sometimes it really helps if some people help put together the pieces of the puzzle. Are we TRYING to stay longer in Iraq? Maybe to finish building oil pipelines? Finish military bases? Do you guys think we want to fuel a civil war? And what would that accomplish for the neo-con agenda?

signed,

confused.

[Minstrel Boy]

83. "Do you guys think we want to fuel a civil war?" Yes

"And what would that accomplish for the neo-con agenda?"

Neocons have fantasized for years about dividing Iraq ethnographically to eradicate the chance of a strong, united Iraq ever arising to pose a potential threat to Israel and to challenge US hegemony over its territory and resources.

[Just Me]

87. Intentionally creating a divided and chaotic environment is a known,...

,...strategy imposed by U.S. government-backed corporacrats to gain power/control over territory.

1. Why plant the bombs?

A. To create an appearance of division, pushing "factions" into violence against one another; to create a rationale for maintaining a permanent U.S. military presence.

2. Are we TRYING to stay longer in Iraq?

A. The BushCo/neoCON backed PNAC calls for permanent U.S. military presence for the geo-political strategic purpose of controlling the rest of the Middle East (including Iran, Syria and maybe Egypt and/or other nations failing to cooperate with profiteering schemes by U.S. Corporacrats).

3. Are we staying in Iraq to finish building oil pipelines?

A. It's more about CONTROLLING the oil production in addition to controlling the region; the oil pipelines would be reconstructed regardless of U.S. occupation.

[confludemocrat]

81. Explain this one Rummy or Tony n/t

[madmark]

82. Odd as hell story; the only thing that I think is plausible is that

the "Iraqi police" being shot at by the SAS were infiltrated by some Islamist or Iranian group were affiliated with the ones that killed the journalist a month or so ago. Now if the SAS were really planting bombs, then I have no ideaL; Agent Provacateur? From the British perspective to what end?

[Junkdrawer]

86. A peaceful, democratic Iraq becomes Western Iran...

Iraq is 60-70% Shiite.

Iraq in a low-level civil war requires a perpetual US/UK presence complete with multi-billion dollar military bases.

Divide and Conquer. As old as imperialism itself.

[radwriter0555]

120. To what end? What is war from bush ever for? to fuel profits and power

for the rich and elite....

[madmark]

127. I meant from the british perspective, I know Bush' Crony End

[wtmusic]

137. If the British soldiers were 'dressed as Arabs'

the Brits have no legitimate comeback. The only plausible explanation is that they were fomenting terror, for which the only plausible explanation is to ensure a Western presence there indefinitely...ad infinitum

[Roland99]

85. HFS!!

[tedzbear]

88. Wow. Sounds like Basra is about ready to explode.

Remember, part of the Iraqi rage is over the Coalition's arrest of a high level al-Sadr deputy yesterday.

[lostnfound]

89. What specific parallels have occurred in US or British history for this?

History buffs: I'm not surprised by this, but what proven cases have occurred in the past which are reminiscent of this?

[anotherdrew]

124. how about in Utah when the Mormons dressed as indians and killed whites?

So that the local indians would be blamed... What was that called again... uh... something something masacre.... uh...

ahhh yes: the Mountain Meadows Massacre

===
the technical term i think is "false flag operation" it's a basic war tactic going back thousands of years.

[Frederik]

152. This is SAS modus operandi

In Rhodesia and Kenya in the 60s and 70s, they even painted their faces black and carried out false flag terrorist attacks which were then blamed on indigenous "terrorists".

[pauldp]

90. Wake The F*ck Up World!

the chaos that is Iraq is INTENTIONAL!

Stiring up sectarian violence for fun and profit.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

British troops freed in jailbreak (CNN)

Official: British troops freed in jailbreak
Saddam nephew gets life; suicide bombs kill 10 south of Baghdad

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A British armored vehicle escorted by a tank crashed into a detention center Monday in Basra and rescued two undercover troops held by police, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official told CNN.

British Defense Ministry Secretary John Reid confirmed two British military personnel were "released," but he gave no details on how they were freed.

(snip)

The official said two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said.


(snip)


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/19/iraq.main/index.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

91. So the brits who mysteriously dressed as arabs and allegedly

shot at people and drove around with explosives were busted out of jail? Am i readin that right?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

95. Yes. Busted out by Brit soldiers, fighting 'Iraqi' forces. Just WHO are

the "anti-Iraqi" forces now? (as shrubco likes to call the "insurgents")

[norml]

97. Sometimes they dress like cowboys. Sometimes they dress like indians.

The show must go on.

[anotherdrew]

125. sometimes they dress like nothing at all

this ain't no party
this ain't no disco
this ain't no fooling around

remember when it was said that iraqi hit squads were operating inside the US? Just around the same time they found the iraqi "super gun"

[Delphinus]

92. I heard on BBC

that it wasn't a prison break, that they got out through negotiations.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

93. Yes, the armored vehicles 'negotiated' their way through the wall of the

prison... there are photos, and apparently footage, of British soldiers in the rescue being set aflame.

Sound like negotiations to you?

This incident smells to high heaven.

[Frederik]

128. The photos are from an earlier attempt

I think, which was aborted due to a raging crowd attacking the tanks with Molotov cocktails, setting to of them ablaze.

[Kagemusha]

94. That's what their Ministry of Defense is saying.

Since there's all sorts of pictures arguing otherwise that are out, let's just say that a Challenger tank will now be featured in encyclopedia explanations of "negotiations".

[SlavesandBulldozers]

101. "negotiations" a very British way of putting it. so cheeky those Brits.

I love British humor.

[KansDem]

143. Perhaps someone lost the key?

And the tanks were the only way to get the door open? :shrug:

[harlinchi]

131. What the heck is an "undercover" troop?

I have never heard the term. It seems to be oxymoronic. I am not questioning your post at all. (Pardon my sensitivity; I've made a posting mistake or two in the past) I just wonder if any others have heard of the term.

[rocktivity]

147. CUE THE 007 THEME!

...an Iraqi Interior Ministry official told CNN...9(that) two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer...(They) admit(ed) they were British marines carrying out a "special security task"...

But they were firing on CIVILIANS, not insurgents. Since when is firing on the very people they're supposed to be liberating a "special security task"? Was the task to be MISTAKEN for insurgents?

:mad:
rocknation

[Voltaire99]

96. Nice work, James #$%#ing Bond. To quote Jim Morrisson...

"The west is the best..."

"The west is the best..."

"Uhhhhhhlllllurrrrrgghhhhh...."

[TroubleMan]

99. JENGA!! JENGA!! JENGA!!!

It's all coming apart.

[I_Will]

100. British Attack Basra Jail to Free Two

Does anybody remember this? It sounded terrible, yet terribly plausible in these 'Through the Looking Glass' times.

I don't know whether there has been any corroboration or debunking since, but it's imaginably consistant...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA505A.html

[stillcool]

104. seems more likely...

..than not. And the really pathetic thing about all this sh*t is that reality is impossible to grasp.

[NJCher]

113. sends shivers down my spine

Read it. Also read a link from the page about agent provacateurs.

The Provocateur State:
Is the CIA Behind the Iraqi "Insurgents"--and Global Terrorism?
by Frank Morales
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR505A.html




Cher

[NYC]

115. From your link:

A warning to car drivers (in Arabic) May 11, 2005:

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat_mukhtara/arabic/0505/moradi2_110505.htm

“A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license. The next day, the driver did visit the camp and he was allowed in the camp with his car. He was admitted to a room for an interrogation that lasted half an hour. At the end of the session, the American interrogator told him: ‘OK, there is nothing against you, but you do know that Iraq is now sovereign and is in charge of its own affairs. Hence, we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. Therefore, go there with this clearance to reclaim your license. At the police station, ask for Lt. Hussain Mohammed who is waiting for you now. Go there now quickly, before he leaves his shift work”.

The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

The only feasible explanation for this incidence is that the car was indeed booby trapped by the Americans and intended for the al-Khadimiya Shiite district of Baghdad. The helicopter was monitoring his movement and witnessing the anticipated “hideous attack by foreign elements”.

The same scenario was repeated in Mosul, in the north of Iraq. A car was confiscated along with the driver’s license. He did follow up on the matter and finally reclaimed his car but was told to go to a police station to reclaim his license. Fortunately for him, the car broke down on the way to the police station. The inspecting car mechanic discovered that the spare tire was fully laden with explosives."

[wtmusic]

139. Where did you get the translation? nt

[NYC]

158. English link:

It was from post #100.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA505A.html

[norml]

102. They have to pretend to be insurgents in order to justify occupation.

By dressing up like insurgents and shooting at the public they hope to turn the public against the insurgency, or maybe it's to even more turn the Shiia against the Sunni.

[Singular73]

105. This doesn't make any sense.

Why would two undercover British operatives fire upon a crowd, with no hope of getting away. The fact they got captured (must have been by everyday Iraqis) is a bit weird.

I don't get it.

Something isn't right here.

[deacon2]

106. This is a huge story

but why the Brits? I can see our own CIA hard at work taking the country to pieces so we'll have to stay and protect all that lovely oil. The limeys doing our dirty work seems a little beyond the pale, even for this swirling, accreting cluster fuck.

[Singular73]

107. Yeah, I didn't think the cynicism and corruption went THAT deep

If the Brits are pulling this kind of shit, what the fuck are WE pulling there....

This kinda shit makes me wonder if LIHOP is conceivable..

[madmark]

109. That is the big question, why the brits doing it? As oppose to our

civilian mercs?

[pauldp]

110. there is little distinction between BushCo and BlairCO

An evil consortium. They need the oil as much as we do.

Maybe the subway bombing was not what it appeared to be?

[Frederik]

153. The Brits are good at this

In Kenya, in the 60s, SAS operatives painted their faces black and carried out terrorist attacks pretending to be Mau-Maus.

Here's an article on similar operations in Rhodesia:
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/unconventional.htm

[zwielicht]

108. Channel 4 clip

http://edge.channel4.com/news/2005/09/week_4/19_basra.wmv

edited to add: 19 MB, sorry, but well worth it
http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/special-reports-storypage.jsp?id=742

[daleo]

112. What could be so important to cover up that Blair would risk this?

After all, this is a very big black eye to British prestige.

I will speculate this - maybe there is a link to the London bombings.

[cthrumatrix]

129. we have no idea how long this crap has been going on

no media -- remember

[NYC]

165. What kind of link?

I have no idea.

[tabasco]

114. Will Iraq declare war on the coalition now?

I imagine if a foreign army entered British soil, attacked a law enforcement facility, and made off with selected prisoners, the Brits would declare war.

This is just the latest debacle in Bush's total clusterfuck.

Well, at least the coalition finally "liberated" somebody.

[Raksha]

119. Sounds like Blair didn't want his goons talking, no matter what.

Too bad...I bet they could have told some interesting stories.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[western mass]

126. The MOD has changed their story

Initially the spin was "there was no jail break. we negotiated for the men."

Now:

An MoD spokesman said: "Two British soldiers were detained and taken to an Iraqi police station. We then started negotiating with the Iraqi authorities for their release.

"We understand that the authorities ordered their release. Unfortunately they weren't released and we became concerned for their safety and as a result a Warrior infantry fighting vehicle broke down the perimeter wall in one place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm

[Eugene]

130. They changed the story again: They rescued the soldiers from local militia

UK soldiers rescued from Iraq militia --brigadier
20 Sep 2005 07:54:00 GMT
Source: Reuters

(Recasts with details, Reid quotes)

LONDON, Sept 20 (Reuters) - Britain sent in troops to free two
undercover soldiers in Basra in southern Iraq after discovering they
had been handed over by Iraqi police to local militia, the army said
on Tuesday.

"From an early stage I had good reason to believe the lives of the
two soldiers were at risk," Brigadier John Lorimer said in a statement
to the media.

The British commanding officer in Basra said his concern for the
arrested men increased after he received information they had been
handed over to "militia elements".

A decision was taken to enter the police station on Monday and a
Warrior armoured vehicle crashed through the perimeter wall of the
jail. When it was discovered the two men were not in the jail, the
men were rescued from a nearby house, he said.

<snip>

[killbotfactory]

136. How cute

We were always at war with Eurasia, btw.

[wtmusic]

140. "A nearby house" -- how convenient

maybe Iraqi police left a note with directions :eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

142. Nothing quite so genteel, if the story is true

Officers searched the jail in the southern Iraqi city from "top to bottom" before forcing guards to disclose the whereabouts of the men at gunpoint.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1788849,00.html

[wtmusic]

145. Oh what a tangled web we weave...

This is the part I like:

"We will be following up with the authorities in Basra why the soldiers were not immediately handed over to the multinational forces as Iraqi law says that they should have been."

While they're at it, perhaps they can determine why UK soldiers were dressed in Arab clothing and firing on Iraqi police, as Iraqi law says that they shouldn't have been.

[MisterP]

159. and the Ark of the Covenant happened by and the Basra prison walls

just collapsed?
or did they reverse course for a third story?

[warrens]

141. Lead story last night and this morning on NPR

This stinks like week-old fish. If anyone has an alternative explanation why two undercover commandos got into a firefight with Iraqi cops, other than they were up to no good, I'd love to hear it. Unless the facts as reported are wrong, it looks like this was some attempt at terrorism so insurgents could be blamed. No other explanation fits the facts.

[rocktivity]

148. Why should ANY police release ANYONE who was shooting at their citizens?

MoD: "Sorry about the cork-up, but our lads were just trying to incite civil war by firing on innocent civilians so that 'insurgents' would be blamed."

Iraqi police: "Oh, is THAT all? Well I suppose if you really HAD wanted to kill an innocent civilian, you would have. The soldiers will be waiting for you in the lobby. Cheerio!"

:crazy:
rocknation

[reprehensor]

132. ?

"...arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen."

Lather, rinse, repeat...

"...arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen."

Yeah, they hate us because of our freedom. Our freedom to continually fuck around with their lives.

[rocktivity]

144. DING DING DING! Reprehensor, you're our grand prize winner!

"...arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen."

That's the bottom line: WHAT WERE THEY DOING SHOOTING AT IRAQI POLICEMEN? Have the British "heard" whether or not this is true?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dunvegan]

138. I'm afraid that's ThoughtCrime, killbotfactory...

...because the over at London, largest population center of Airstrip One, the Oceania government news this morning said,"we have always been at war with Eastasia."

You know you're not allowed to "remember" yesterday's news.

Terribly sorry, but it's Room 101 at Gitmo for you, killbotfactory.

:sarcasm:

[Barrett808]

154. See Juan Cole's timeline:

http://www.juancole.com/2005/09/british-storm-basra-jail-with-tanks.html

[norml]

155. British soldiers arrested over alleged killing

British soldiers arrested over alleged killing

Staff and agencies
Monday September 19, 2005


A British soldier prepares to jump from a burning tank which was set ablaze after a shooting incident in the southern Iraqi city of Basra. Photograph: Atef Hassan/Reuters



Violence erupted in Basra this afternoon following the arrest of two British soldiers for allegedly killing one policeman and wounding another.
British troops fired on crowds throwing petrol bombs, burning furniture and tyres which set at least one tank on fire. Reuters witnesses said a British soldier was engulfed by flames as he scrambled out of the burning tank, being pelted with stones by the crowd. Two Iraqis were killed in the violence, an Interior Ministry official said. The fighting broke out after two British soldiers, allegedly dressed as Arabs, opened fire on a police patrol killing one officer and wounding another.

The Ministry of Defence confirmed that two military personnel were detained by Iraqi authorities today, but would not comment on rumours that the soldiers were working undercover.

One of the men sat with a bandage on his head after they were detained, a Reuters photographer said. His trousers were stained with blood spots.


snip


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1573681,00.html

[baby_mouse]

156. Oh, for Pete's sake.

Stop this war.

It's too SILLY!

:rofl: :crazy:

[norml]

161. The day that Iraqi anger exploded in the face of the British occupiers

The day that Iraqi anger exploded in the face of the British occupiers
By Helen McCormack
Published: 20 September 2005


The dramatic events began to unfold just before dawn yesterday, when two British nationals were detained by Iraqi authorities. It emerged later that they were British soldiers. Dressed in plain clothes - according to some they were wearing traditional Arab dress - the two men had been driving in an unmarked car when they arrived at a checkpoint in the city.

In the confrontation that followed, shots were fired, and two Iraqi policemen were shot, one of whom later died. The Iraqi authorities blamed the men, reported to be undercover commandos, and arrested them.

Mohammed al-Abadi, an official in the Basra governorate said that the two men had looked suspicious to police. "A policeman approached them and then one of these guys fired at him. Then the police managed to capture them," he said.

"They refused to say what their mission was. They said they were British soldiers and ask their commander about their mission," he added.


snip


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article313848.ece

[norml]

162. British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car

British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car
"They refused to say what their mission was."


September 20, 2005
Reuters



The following Reuters report raises some disturbing questions.

Why were undercover British "soldiers" wearing traditional Arab headscarves firing at Iraqi police?

The incident took place just prior to a major religious event in Basra.

The report suggests that the police thought the British soldiers looked "suspicious". What was the nature of their mission?

Occupation forces are supposesd to be collaborating with Iraqi authorities. Why did Britsh Forces have to storm the prison using tanks and armoured vehicles to liberate the British undercover agents?

"British forces used up to 10 tanks " supported by helicopters " to smash through the walls of the jail and free the two British servicemen."

Was there concern that the British "soldiers" who were being held by the Iraqi National Guard would be obliged to reveal the nature and objective of their undercover mission?


snip


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050920&articleId=972

[norml]

166. Iraqis in Basra Slam 'British Aggression' By THOMAS WAGNER

Iraqis in Basra Slam 'British Aggression' By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Sep 21, 7:46 PM ET



BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of Iraqi civilians and policemen, some waving pistols and AK-47s, rallied Wednesday in the southern city of Basra to denounce "British aggression" in the rescue of two British soldiers.

The Basra governor threatened to end all cooperation with British forces unless Prime Minister Tony Blair's government apologizes for the deadly clash with Iraqi police. Britain defended the raid.

In London, British Defense Secretary John Reid and Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari tried to minimize the effect of the fighting, saying it would not undermine the relationship between the two nations or their determination to lead Iraq to peace and democracy.

But the fighting raised new concerns about the power that radical Shiite militias with close ties to Iran have developed in the region, questions about the role of Britain's 8,500-strong force in Iraq and doubts about the timetable for handing over power to local security forces.

There has been disagreement about just what happened late Monday, when British armor crashed into a jail to free two British soldiers who had been arrested by Iraqi police.


snip


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050921/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq