Dalai Lama Tells U.S. Crowd War Outdated

[Judi Lynn]

Dalai Lama Tells U.S. Crowd War Outdated

By ROSA CIRIANNI
Associated Press Writer

September 26, 2005, 11:05 AM EDT


PISCATAWAY, N.J. -- The Dalai Lama told 36,000 people at Rutgers Stadium that the concept of war was outdated and young people have a responsibility to make this century one of peace.

"This whole planet is just us," the 70-year-old exiled monk said Sunday. "Therefore, destruction of another area essentially is destruction of yourself."

Tibet's spiritual leader also urged the audience to develop a wider world perspective, not just focus on "America, America, America."

"His quiet mind is the kind of serenity New Jersey, home of strip malls, could use," Arielle Gomberg said.

The speech was the largest nonathletic event in Rutgers history, topping visits by former President Clinton and former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno.
(snip/...)

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-dalai-lama,0,407415.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[sakabatou]

1. Very wise words

[Miss Chybil]

2. You mean it's not all America, America, America? Who'd of thunk...

Land of the free. Home of the brave. The only country with running water and indoor toilets. Man, my bubble is busting...

/sarcasm

[goforit]

3. A good man with such simple wisdom.....A breath of fresh air!!!!

[onager]

4. Religion is also outdated...

...AND a major cause of wars.

Let's see you address THAT one, Mr. "Spiritual Leader."

[gratuitous]

5. So, what did he gloss over about religion?

And just because a lot of bloodthirsty, greedy megalomaniacs dress up their actions in religious garb to gull as much of the public as they can, I'd say that the fault lies with the megalomaniac rather than the trappings he chose to disguise his true motives.

[electron_blue]

6. I am confused -are you attacking the Dalai Lama?

From what I've read, I think he would agree with you that religion has started many many wars. He would also probably delineate between religion and spirituality. Or at least, I would.

[Timmy5835]

7. How right you are

Buddism is NOT about religion but about non-judgmental spirituality. Something we could ALL use a little more of.

[Roland99]

9. Uh...how about you go to the ATM and withdraw all of your money

because you need to buy a clue.


I cannot believe someone would attack the Dalai Lama like that.

[defiant1]

24. Jeez....

Where'd you come up with that??

Younger sister, perhaps?

[Maraya1969]

39. OK here is the irony. The Dali Lama would not get angry over that

statement like some of us have.

[Jersey Ginny]

28. I was there. He did

He said that it is best to view the common themes of the world's religions that they share: forgiveness, taking care of the poor, compassion. He said that "mischevious people" have strayed from their religion's basic human principles. He spoke of how he has met many christians who do better work with poor people than his own monks, who tend to "hide out" in the monestary. Basically, his message was that we can't make any headway with the religion problems of this world if we continue to think that one religion is better than another, and also that if we start finding common themes that will help with our mutual understanding.

[Maraya1969]

40. Thank you for sharing that. I would LOVE to see the Dali Lama

And what are great experience for you!

[scarletwoman]

32. Buddhism is NOT a religion.

It is a set of philosophical and psychological analyses on what it means to be fully human.

In Buddhism there is no god, no worship, no faith, just a road map for experiential knowledge and ethical behavior.

There has never been a war fought in the name of Buddhism, there has never been a Buddhist Inquisition or a Buddhist Crusade.

Only someone totally ignorant of Buddhism would lump it in with "religion".

sw

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. "From one viewpoint, Buddhism is a religion,

from another viewpoint Buddhism is a science of mind and not a religion. Buddhism can be a bridge between these two sides."

I guess the person who said that is totally ignorant of Buddhism, eh?

[scarletwoman]

46. Why not post the entire quote?

* "Buddhism does not accept a theory of God, or a creator. According to Buddhism, one's own actions are the creator, ultimately. Some people say that, from a certain angle, Buddhism is not a religion but rather a science of mind. Religion has much involvement with faith. Sometimes it seems that there is quite a distance between a way of thinking based on faith and one entirely based on experiment, remaining skeptical. Unless you find something through investigation, you do not want to accept it as fact. From one viewpoint, Buddhism is a religion, from another viewpoint Buddhism is a science of mind and not a religion. Buddhism can be a bridge between these two sides. Therefore, with this conviction I try to have closer ties with scientists, mainly in the fields of cosmology, psychology, neurobiology and physics. In these fields there are insights to share, and to a certain extent we can work together."

Or how about another?

"I believe that at every level of society - familial, tribal, national and international - the key to a happier and more successful world is the growth of compassion. We do not need to become religious, nor do we need to believe in an ideology. All that is necessary is for each of us to develop our good human qualities."

I'm not sure what your point is, but I'll stand by what I posted.

sw

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. Because my point was that calling another DUer

"totally ignorant" was incorrect - because the Dalai Lama himself regards Buddhism as a religion. It was not my purpose to examine exactly what the Dalai Lama's view of science, or happiness, was; so I didn't post his thoughts on those subjects.

I'll also say that calling another DUer "totally ignorant" is rude.

[scarletwoman]

55. "Ignorance" means lacking knowledge.

Ignorance of any particular subject merely means that one does not have knowledge of that subject.

My point was, someone with knowledge of Buddhism would not lump it in with "religion", particularily in the context used in the post to which I originally responded. Quote: "Religion is also outdated...AND a major cause of wars." To imply that Buddhism falls into this category displays ignorance -- i.e. lack of knowledge -- of what Buddhism actually is.

I do not think it's rude to point out that someone's assertion about a particular subject indicates a lack of knowledge of that subject. Imho, it is important to point out erroneous assertions so that others who may also be lacking in knowledge in the same subject are not led to repeat the error.

You say, "the Dalai Lama himself regards Buddhism as a religion."

That is not what he says in that quote. The quote is: "From one viewpoint, Buddhism is a religion..." He is not saying that HE holds this viewpoint, only that it is one viewpoint.

In order to have any sort of reasonable discussion about "religion" it is essential, imho, to lay a firm groundwork of first distinguishing between "religion" and "spiritual path". They are NOT synonymous.

While Buddhism may have some superficial aspects of "religion" -- i.e. foundational texts, special communities of practitioners (monks and nuns) -- its differences are much more profound.

The most fundamental difference is that Buddhism is atheistic; belief in a "Supreme Being" is not only NOT required, but is actively discouraged.

There is no "divine" revelation. Buddhist teachings derive from the actual experiences of actual human beings, the Buddha included. It is precisely because Gautaum Buddha was a human being that his teachings are valued -- what he achieved is possible for any other human to achieve.

Buddhism does not require that any of its tenets be taken on faith. Like science, it is based on testable hypotheses -- if you do such and such a practice, you will achieve such and such a result. It is a profoundly sophisticated science of mind.

There is no doctrine of "elect" vs. "unsaved". Each individual is responsible for his or her own efforts, and all practices are dedicated to the welfare of "all sentient beings." There is no "in" group or "out" group. All beings are held to be worthy of compassion.

There is no proselytizing, no coerced conversions, no mandatory declarations of faith. There is no automatic membership conferred by birth. You either follow the teachings or not, you either do the practices or not.

This is just a small and partial list. Time constraints necessitate that I leave the matter here, I only hope that this might in some small way serve to clarify my original premise.

sw

[ClintonFor08]

49. Buddhism is the world's first TRUE religion

By "true" religion, I mean a religion that is not associated with any ethnic group or ethnicity, but the ideals embraced by anyone and any place.

Older religions such as Judaism and Hinduism are not truly religious. Both were identities. One is for Israelites/Hebrews and other is for Indians/Castes.

All other "true" religions like Zoroastrianism or Christianity or Islam came centuries after Buddhism.

[woodenrobot]

54. Not so fast...

Faith (shradha) does actually have an important part to play in Buddhism. It is not the blind faith of theistic religions.

Since there are non-falsifiable claims it makes, namely rebirth, it is a religion.

[Maraya1969]

37. Buddhism is about peace. Buddhists do not fight and they do not

kill. Some Buddhist's sects will not even kill an insect. And I think they are all vegetarian but I'm not certain. I don't even think you could call it a religion.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

47. Contrary to popular belief

Buddhism is not a religion. Unfortunately, thinking of it in terms of a religion is the only way the western mind can conceive of it.

[olddad56]

50. maybe you need to address that one within yourself...

Spirituality and religion are not the same thing at all. And while I would agree with you that religion has been a cause for too much war, especially Christan religions, war has never been a by-product of people who were truly interested in understanding their own spirituality. Religion is one path. There is only one God, but many, many paths to understanding God.

What was it that they used to say in AA, "Religion is for people who don't want to go to Hell, Spirituality are for people who have been there".

[Roland99]

8. The ultimate anti-war, anti-BS advocate.

[goodhue]

10. excellent

[MrPrax]

11. Why expect any more?

This is the usual non-committal 'deep message' stuff that won't wake the Followers or annoy his paymasters...

From the man that thought the Iraq war might be justified--I saw him mumbling crap on Larry King Live over Hurricane Katrina victims, I guess the coffers are getting thin and his handlers figure he could use more marketing.

Is he still on the Company payroll?

[sam sarrha]

13. Please be specific..what the hell are you mumbling about ,the Dalai Lama.?

The Dalai Lama has has no handlers..

he would not say anything against religion, that would be counter productive.. he would only speak about the path to compassion and peace.. criticizing isn't a path to anywhere

He talks to the side in Tibetan to his Translators.. his english is not that good, and i am sure he understands that anything he says will be spun by ignorant men into deceptive propaganda in order for them to cause more suffering.. he knows he has to be specific in our language.

[MrPrax]

14. What are you mumbling about?

"he knows he has to be specific in our language." um...you actually have to be specific in any language to be UNDERSTOOD.

But no one was asking him to say anything against religion, just US foreign policy and the killing of many Iraqi women and children in an illegal war.

If you look over the record, the Silly Lama is pretty non-commital on a wide variety of subjects and so I presume that the folks that follow his Bhuddist Lite message (rich elites who can go beyond 'material' obsessions) like the 'platitudes' and empty conceptual reasoning, so long as it is spun as a 'religion'.

It actually takes courage to take a position--

About the Handlers--um...since he was a CIA asset for a couple of decades during the cold war and one of the reasons he was kicked out of India, I assume that now China is our Friend, somebody else is picking up the guy's credit card bills.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_1_64/ai_111979617

[Jersey Ginny]

29. Geez you sound so angry

"It takes courage to take a position"-Buddist teach through words and examples. Frequently, as is culturally accepted, their "positions" are clear but subtle. It was a "Buddist-lite" talk, however. He had a varied audience and he is not talking in his native language. He made the talk simple and accessable. Really, if you are angry and cynical about a man who strives to achieve and teach compassion and nonviolence, then you must not have much hope for anything. He'd be the first to tell you that he's not perfect. In fact, he did many times yesterday. He frequently said "I don't know."

[sam sarrha]

53. The Dalai Lama is a simple monk.. you expect too much, however if you were

actually read some of his books, such as... The meaning of life:Buddhist perspectives on cause and effect. a little book of 120 pages with 20 pages of foot notes, 6 pages of index.. you just might understand that he has a lot to say.. depending on the audience. actually what he did say is a bit deeper than you are apparently able to appreciate... maybe some day you will be able to understand

The Four Immeasurables

may all being have happiness and the causes of happiness

may all being be free suffering and the causes of suffering

may all beings never be separated form the happiness that knows no suffering.

may all being live in Equanimity, free from the anger, attachment and aversion that causes us to hold some beings near and others distant


You are just too cynical to be rational. do the they give Nobel Peace Prizes for no reason..?

[tainowarrior]

15. are you suggesting

that the Dalai Lama was pro-war?

I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

[redqueen]

20. Is that the money they gave in the 60's?

The money they apparently gave him to fight China to get his country back?

The link you posted mentions nothing about CIA money. Please explain.

As far as his noncomittal response re: the war. Pff. Perhaps he, many others, was wrong.

[ozone_man]

22. In the Michael Parenti article.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

[redqueen]

21. deleted

:shrug:

[IndyOp]

45. Some Buddhists believe that taking a life may be the moral

act if the person in question is about to kill many, many others. The example I remember is this: If a pirate is about to kill all of the people on his ship, the moral action may be to kill the pirate.

I don't remember what the Dalai Lama said in the run up to the unprovoked attack on Iraq. I would like to see the quote to which you refer.

He often poses hypothetical questions/answers to get people to think - he may have been musing on whether war might be justified if inspections were not permitted, if all other options were exhausted.

All other options were not exhausted and I doubt very much that he said that the attack *was* justified at the time that * started shock and awe.

The Dalai Lama is a holy man. He is attached to neither money nor power.

Peace.

[Shine]

12. Blessed are the Peacemakers.

The Dalai Lama has much wisdom to share. I have great respect for him and his teachings.

He speaks the truth and reminds us all of the interconnectedness we share: What we do to others, we do to ourselves.

May All Beings Be Happy

May All Beings Be At Peace

~Shine

[insane_cratic_gal]

16. I see alot of ignorance about buddhism

in this thread.

Firstly there is no Deity in Buddhism. There is only human beings struggling to attain peace.

Buddha never claims to be a God in fact, he says he's nothing more then a man.
Dalai Lama is believed to be a reincarnation of a Bodhisattva: enlightened beings who themselves are able to escape the cycle of death and rebirth but compassionately choose to remain here in this world to assist others in reaching nirvana or Buddhahood. They are souls of empathy and compassion.

Here is where the Dalai Lama Lives





In a nut shell this is the foundation of Buddhism

Buddhist practice is to end the suffering of cyclic existence, samsara (Pâli, Sanskrit), by awakening the practitioner to the realization of true reality, the achievement of liberation (nirvana). To achieve this, one should purify and train the mind and act according to the laws of karma: perform positive, wholesome actions and avoid negative, harmful actions.

In Buddhism (as I have been studying it)there is no recruitment process. No one has ever walked up to me and said, "Hey you want come to meditation mass with me?"

I don't want any misconceptions about what a Buddhist is or isn't. Though with any religion or nature of something there is bound to be a few. I've seen plenty posted her to raise a hackle or two.

Far as I know there are only 3 organzations that the Dalai Lama has out his name on. His own site which is for tibetan refugees. The Foundation for Universal Responsibility, New Delhi, established with the funds from the Nobel Peace Prize. And http://www.dalailamafoundation.org

Which he didn't found just lent his name to, so essentailly you won't find any "coffers" that are low

[cire4]

17. Correction: The Dalai Lama used to live in the Potala Palace in Lhasa

He left Tibet in 1959 and has been in exile in India ever since. Today, the Palace is nothing more than a tourist attraction :-(

[insane_cratic_gal]

19. I stand corrected

Dharamsala, India has been his home since the exile.

thanks for pointing that out, I always enjoy learning new. Though I haven't been able to find an image of where exactly he resides.

:D

[Smirking_Chimp]

18. That is the Potala Palace in Tibet. He hasn't lived there since the 50's.

was driven out by the Chinese govt., because they wanted Tibet for military installations, and bases. Tibet's reputation as the "rooftop of the world" attracted the Chinese govt. to take over the country, and make it part of China.

[Smirking_Chimp]

23. sorry- double post.

edited for double post.

[sarcasmo]

25. WWFSMD

[Jersey Ginny]

30. Yes, I agree

He is a man and imperfect by his own nature and his admission. I'm surprised that some posters are what appears to be villifying a man whose message if one of peace and compassion. It's like what the Republicans are doing to Cindy Sheehan, they attack the messenger when something about the message, a simple message, makes them uncomfortable.

[defiant1]

26. Best part....

Tibet's spiritual leader also urged the audience to develop a wider world perspective, not just focus on "America, America, America."

That is so true.

[Dogmudgeon]

27. The Brutality of Old Tibet, or, Hating Brother Tenzin

No, I don't hate the Tibetans. And I don't hate the Dalai Lama, either. (He was born Tenzin Gyatso -- I occasionally use his birth name to emphasize his humanity, which seems to be lost to our media in a manner similar to that of Popes and various saints.) I actually do admire him, like most of the people here. But the occasional "anti-Tibetan" or "anti-Dalai-Lama" post shouldn't be just dismissed with an angry remark. In truth, the theocratic monarchy that ruled Tibet and Nepal since the Khanate empires of the middle ages was among the worst theocracies the world has ever had to bear.

The suffering of the Tibetan people has existed much longer than 46 years. Their own brand of feudalism was a crushing weight long before Maoist Communism. After Communism came in, that crushing weight merely changed its name. The current and 14th Dalai Lama is well aware of the often un-Buddha-like history of his people, and I believe that he is striving to transform the Tibetan community from his position in exile. I wish him well. But the Chinese occupiers have been responding to a large, subversive aristocracy with a history of blood lust and rapine. The harsh, authoritarian rule of the Tibetan aristocracy was unrelieved until 1959, when the Red Army occupied Tibet and 24-year-old brother Tenzin Gyatso fled into exile.

Of course, it took all of two weeks for the Communists to supplant the Aristocracy as the suppliers of pain and oppression. But there you go -- out with the old Devil, and in with the new Devil.

Half of my own family is Jewish. I grew up quite aware that the earliest Hebrews were fanatical, violent, brutal desert nomads, killing at their leisure and claiming Godly exemption. But the Hebrew people changed radically after a taste of the same violence they once dished out; since the birth of Israel/Jacob, there have been three major Jewish diasporas, two extended periods of slavery, and finally a century of genocide culminating in the Nazi-run Holocaust.

This has become a key issue in understanding the development of theology and philosophy within the world Jewry throughout history. The Jews survived their oppression and developed a deep tradition of ethical religion. Sufi Muslims have followed a similar course. It is not too far-fetched to suppose that the same transformation is happening to the Tibetan Buddhist community under the leadership of the 14th Dalai Lama, who has also become a spiritual hero to millions of non-Buddhists.

It is always difficult to confront the sins of the past, and no easier to read about the background from which the Dalai Lama himself emerged. A brief, concentrated essay by Michael Parenti -- Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth -- will get you started, but there are many other sources of information uncolored by Western fantasy Tibetanism. They will, however, require more effort to find, among the thousands of laudatory (and often starry-eyed) books about Tibetan culture, history, and their Bon Buddhist community.

It will possibly destroy many Americans' ideas of a Utopian Tibet. At the same time, it should serve as a model of how societies and peoples can change, as well as the power of a single individual to turn vision into action. It was difficult for me to read that in his youth, the Dalai Lama complacently went along with his brutal aristocratic elders, or that as late as 1999, he supported Augusto Pinochet. But I do not see the Dalai Lama as a god. He is a man who has learned the lessons of his faith the hard way, and probably with a good deal of pain for every step he took. To emerge as a voice of truth from such a tumultuous and conflicting background is a rare and difficult thing.

The Dalai Lama is a spiritual leader in spite of his background, not because of it. He has come a LOT further than any of us would have expected. And certainly, he has traveled a much harder road than I could ever have survived myself. We can only hope (and maybe pray) that the other religious traditions follow similar paths.

And maybe, just maybe, even we can, too.

--p!

[tomg]

35. Thanks so much for a wonderfully intelligent

and measured post. It has given me quite a bit to consider. One of the nicest aspects of DU is gaining new insights and new informaton that cause me to think through my positions.

[hollowdweller]

44. I think the Dali Lama's exile actually helped him spiritually advance

I think he was lucky enough of a person to have actually incarnated as a smart person. When he came west he became exposed to psychologists and different perspectives and I think that it actually made him practice at a higher level than if he had been in Tibet. He managed to incorporate, or maybe even just recognize aspects of his religion in a new light, and has really kind of moved away from some of the more superstitious aspects of Tibetan Buddhisim.

I saw a video where he said he felt that the things they had undergone under the Chinese were in part karma for the religious hierarchy acting more like landlords than spirtual guides. I am real impressed with the Dali Lama. I'd say he comes closest to of any spiritual figure to being an avatar.

[MetaTrope]

31. Never mind war...

Did he have anything to say about large nations invading and occupying smaller, defenseless ones for their resources?

[Megahurtz]

33. Be careful what you say, the Gestapo will come arrest you

for saying what you think.

:sarcasm:

[lovuian]

36. I saw the Dalai Lama in Austin to a sellout crowd!!!

His message was inspiring!!! Dialogue vs War!!! For less suffering dialogue is best!!!

Loved him!!!

[Demeter]

38. Bet That Goes Over Like A Lead Balloon in Red States

Playing with the macho mindset is not a job for fools.

[Just Me]

41. We are a member of one race,: the human race. All those who hold,...

,...the best interests of our race in their hearts, will prove to be the "saviors" of our world.

I promise. :hug:

[Taxloss]

42. Feudalism is also outdated.

That didn't stop the Lamas inflicting it on Tibet.

Sure, China's occupation is wrong. But the theocracy of the Lamas was also wrong.

[nolabels]

51. The Native American Indians were wrong also

Cultures that live for thousands of years on their own accord should not be allowed to exist

[onager]

43. But don't expect criticism of any SPECIFIC wars...

...when asked about the U.S. invasion of Iraq, (the Dalai Lama) said simply: "It is too early to say what will happen. Wait a few years. That is my opinion." And in a March 11, 2003, official statement on the same issue, he said, "All we can do is pray for the gradual end to the tradition of wars," adding, "I don't know whether our prayers will be of any practical help."

...the official line was that he would give no private interviews during his tour--though, as it turned out, this wasn't strictly the case.

...the New York Times reported that the Tibetan leader somehow found time for a photo op with pop star Ricky Martin. It makes you wonder.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_1_64/ai_111979617

Some more interesting info about the Great Man:

An Office of Tibet document claims "soon after His Holiness the Dalai Lama's arrival in India, he re-established the Tibetan Government in exile, based on modern democratic principles".

Yet it took more than 30 years for an Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies to be directly elected from among the 130,000 exiles. Of 46 assembly members, only 30 are elected. The other 16 are appointed by religious authorities or directly by the Dalai Lama.

All assembly decisions must be approved by the Dalai Lama, whose sole claim to the status of head of state is that he has been selected by the gods.

The separation of church and state is yet to be recognised by the Dalai Lama as a "modern democratic principle".

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/248/248p23.htm

[Bill McBlueState]

57. Wait a few years?

Wait a few years???

Ok, we waited a few years. And how many people are dead now?

Some of us knew this war was a terrible idea from the start.

[ClintonFor08]

48. No disrespect towards the Lama, but he supports India's war on terror

He has supported India's stance in Kashmir. And India is using war against the alleged terrorists there. Why? Because the Lama lives just south of Kashmir. So, the terrorism can spread to his area if India loses Kashmir.

[GayCanuck]

56. I'm sure a message of peace was welcome

but let's face it; his religion is just another religion like everyone else's. The Lamas were notorious in Tibet and subjugated their own people.