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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:21 PM
Original message
Controversial cardinal pays tribute to Darwin
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9589656/

Controversial cardinal pays tribute to Darwin
------------------
He says flap over views on evolution arose from misunderstanding
------------------
Reuters
Updated: 2:19 p.m. ET Oct. 4, 2005
------------------
PARIS - A senior Roman Catholic cardinal seen as a champion of intelligent design against Darwin’s explanation of life has described the theory of evolution as “one of the very great works of intellectual history.”

Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn said he could believe both in divine creation and in evolution because one was a question of religion and the other of science, two realms that complemented rather than contradicted each other.

(snip)

A court in Pennsylvania is now hearing a suit brought by parents against a school district that teaches intelligent design — the view that life is so complex some higher being must have designed it — alongside evolution in biology class.

“Without a doubt, Darwin pulled off quite a feat with his main work and it remains one of the very great works of intellectual history,” Schoenborn declared in a lecture in St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna on Sunday. “I see no problem combining belief in the Creator with the theory of evolution, under one condition — that the limits of a scientific theory are respected.”

(snip)



complete story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9589656/
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. well hey
at least he isn't trying to say science is null and void. I can live with this.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, at least he didn't call it "junk science."
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. "one condition — that the limits of a scientific theory are respected"
Who created god?

Or would that be an example of the limits of religious thinking?
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. No one did,
he's always been here, because, without that precept, how would anyone explain how ANY of us even exist.... there had to always be something, or there would be nothing. It's rather simple to me to say, look, someone had to make this all happen... we have an existence, why???? some all powerful force made it happen. in science, it's the same way.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Then why not simply say the universe was always here, etc.
... and skip the god layer?

:shrug:
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That is the realm of belief, not scientific fact.
You cannot scientifically prove the universe has always been there and I cannot prove that God exists. You can believe it has always been there and I can believe that God created the universe. Neither position is ultimately provable and thus constitutes a belief.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. But I could argue that the simpler explanation is more likely...
... to be true, as that's been the case for so much of what we observe about the world around the universe around us.

I agree, though, cosmological questions are another thing entirely, and shouldn't get mixed up in discussions of evolution.

It just seems odd that this cardindal, a guy whose whole gig is based on faith/belief/imagination, felt it necessary to insert a line about the "limits" of science. When religion itself is crippled by far more constraining limits.

Maybe he was playing to his base.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I don't know how the universe being around since the "beginning"
is a "simple" logical argument. Indeed, I find it to be a most difficult concept to grasp that physical matter, as we know it, simply "was". However, I digress. Most scientific notions about the creation of the universe have little more factual grounding than do theistic notions about the creation of the universe. I think it is much simpler to call them both beliefs with relatively equal factual footing. As a matter of fact, I don't think we will ever be able to obtain the knowledge to "prove" either idea is correct. As neither idea can be tested and likely never will be, they are of relatively equal standing. Any debate involving the two positions is more a theological debate than a scientific one and to argue that either statement is superior is clearly a waste of time. Anyone could use some form of logic to argue that either position is superior logically.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well, the goal of physicists IS to test their theories some day.
Without testability, it's true the theories will dwell more in the realm of conjecture, as religion does.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. I'm a Christian who loves science
But I'm hopelessly wrong-brained (i.e., the poetic type) and therefore can grasp hard science concepts in the most rudimentary way.
There's so much about science that's absolutely fascinating -- string theory, dark energy, dark matter, etc. Most people are like me, I think, in that they don't have the intellectual chops to grasp that stuff. I'm willing to try, most people are not.
One of the great things about Carl Sagan was that he seemed to know how to reduce complex scientific principles so that the laymen could understand them. I think science intimidates most people, but Sagan made it approachable. Hopefully, we'll see another one of him someday.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Sagan had a tremendous talent for bringing alive the wonder and joy...
... that's at the heart of scientific inquiry.

:loveya:

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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. Here is your flaw.
That as time goes by more and more of the unknown (preternatural) comes into the realm of the known (natural) and therefore religion (supernatural)loses its stranglehold. Religion will lose as time goes by. This is why you see many instances of organized religion trying to dumb down the curriculum at institutes so they can have some chance for survival.

We no longer fear bolts from the sky as punishment from some deity, rather it is called lightning. (I know Pat robertson still clings to his ancient mumbo-jumbo, at least publicly).

Much of the DNA is being unraveled. If anything, it is very convincing for evolution.

The list is enormous now. I hope you catch on quick. Time is not your ally, only religious imperialism is.

I knew a few Jesus freaks who were getting degrees as Anthropologists so they could "debunk" Darwin AFTER they got their degrees. This is the type of folly that is sometimes accepted by the freaks to justify their claims. And those two were morans. They did not study and even thought their draft lottery numbers were the will of God. I had to remind them that since there are more than 365 people in the USA, most likely a deity would not decide, "well you two get to stay and these other 200,000 atheists as well"!

Just the fact that there are still those toadying for some ancient mumbo jumbo is why we have such a primitive "Thous shalt kill" in the White House.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow, what an about face
The real question is did this come from discussions from other Cardinals and Bishops, or was this a directive from Pope BXVI? From what I have been reading, the Pope is a big fan of ID, so I find that possibility doubtful..
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. there is no tradition from the Catholics since the 50s
of fighting evolution and modern physics. They say "let to us what is before the Big Bang"...

Remember that the Catholics consider the Gospels as they primary source. The Bible (Old Testament) is only a complement. They don't go around quoting it.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. An about face from Shoenborn himself
He had previously been very very keen on intelligent design, had said natural selection, and had intimated that the Pope shared his views, and not the view of the late JP2.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. Read Teillard de Chardin
You can hold evolution as a scientific theory and believe in God no contradiction. Faith and science are 2 different things.
Teillard was a French Jesuit Paleontologist did much field work. His works are very poetic.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. As someone who learned about evolution from a nun, in Catholic school
I've have to agree.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Catholics have taught what I would call "divinely inspired evolution" for
some time now. It is basically saying that God guided evolution to create what he wanted.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is the conventional US catholic view AFAIK
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 05:19 PM by Jim4Wes
Its how they splained it to me over 12 years.
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KC21304 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. And to me over 50 yrs ago. n/t
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. hmmm, I guess this is good news?
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zara Donating Member (470 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pastafarians believe not god, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster,
set the events of evolution in motion. At least enlightened ones!

Me, I ask, who made the Spaghetti Monster? Was Julia Childs around before the big bang?
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The Pope has obviously NOT been touched by His noodly appendage
I mean, isn't it OBVIOUS?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Julia Child cooked mostly continental food.
Edited on Tue Oct-04-05 06:02 PM by LeftyMom
His noodliness spoke to me, spelling out a message in the penne I was preparing for lunch. He was called into being by the Cosmic Italian Grandmother and she paired him with a nice red wine and fresh snap beans with a hint of lemon, then served him on her second-best dishes, as she's reserving the first for a visit from a Pope who isn't a jerk or the ghost of President Kennedy.

At that point it gets a little wierd. Apparently our great gastronomical God did the only reasonable thing and began eating himself. He fears that if He ever finishes consuming His own delicious form (He informs me that His sauce is a bit spicy and has lots of nice veggie chunks and His noodly appendages are perfectly al dente) the world may end, but He hopes He'll have leftovers and we shall dwell in the takeout box of our Lord forever.

RAmen.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. hey she was stationed out there as CIA
of course she cooked and ate continental.

Now, those were the days when the CIA hired people who would never be suspected of being spies.

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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. she was in Sri Lanka when she was a typist for the OSS
not Europe.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. typist -spy; europe -sri lanka. Under Bush's geography its all the same
details details. At least it was not France.

:)
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Controversial ? who is controversial ?,
He just presented the mainstream opinion from the Catholics which far outnumber all the Evangelical sects.

it had been controversial if he had said the contrary
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. He was controversial because he did side with the Evangelicals
Here's a reprint of his New York Times piece:

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of "chance and necessity" are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence.

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/catholic/schonborn-NYTimes.html


And this was done in concert with the creationst Discovery Institute:

As reported by The Times in the days following publication of Schonborn’s column, a Discovery Institute vice president had “urged” Schonborn to submit the column. Mark Ryland told the newspaper that ID supporters were “very excited” that a church leader had publicly opposed evolution.

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7526&abbr=cs_


When a senior cardinal writes something like that, so soon after they've got a new Pope, it looks like a change in direction to 'intelligent design'. It now seems that he's been persuaded, whetehr by the Pope, or other cardinals, to return to the 'evolution is correct science' line.
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McKenzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Professor Richard Dawkins made a lovely comment on this
sort of silly contradiction. Something like "When two opposing views are held with equal strength the answer does not necessarily lie somewhere in between. It is possible that one side is just plain wrong." Something like that anyway.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. there is a corollary just as important
"when two opposing views argue with equal strength, it is just as likely that both are wrong, in ways neither even considered."

that applies easily to all things scientific, and more importantly (to the detriment of most baptist preachers) to all things religious.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. Where the hell was this guy on Papal election day?
:P
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. No one ever seems to comment on the fact that we humans have a...
tendency to make a tidy little order of things, sometimes where there is no order to be had. We look for order, we long for order, we sometimes invent order, and we can't stand disorder and weird things with no explanation.

I've often wondered why the universe makes spheres out of matter, and organizes galaxies into swirls and globules. Do we really understand enough about gravity to explain this? Why did it/does it happen?

The ordering human mind at work.

I PERCEIVE order, design, some scientific law--based on knowledge and experience, to a certain extent, but also, based just on LONGING FOR ORDER. I want to know WHY, even if the answer is God swirling her finger into the pot of paint. (Why does she do that?) But is there really an orderly explanation for this? Such vast, vast, vast distances involved, and vast, vast, vast amounts of matter. Do we even have a clue how this all works? Do we have adequate brains and languages to comprehend and describe it, and make predictions from it?

Is the concept of God--which seems so universal in human culture--a bit of our DNA at work to CREATE the order that we need to FEEL, or be convinced of, in order for the species to survive? Have we selected for this "longing for order" DNA bit, because it helped us to plan for the future, survive catastrophe, and prosper and procreate, despite many menaces to our existence? And is it this bit of DNA that makes us posit a great ordering of everything, to which we give human attributes BECAUSE it really is us, or a bit of us, that we are imagining writ large? In worshiping God, are we actually worshiping this bit of our DNA?

Is God imagined (or even in fact produced, in some way--given existence) by a remnant of the dawn of human thought? Once we could perceive order, and started ordering things in our minds, did we then take a leap and extrapolate that evolutionary development into the God of the Trees, the God of the Waters, the Gods of the Stars, etc.? (???)

(It's not just these bones and shells here that I've organized into a necklace; EVERYTHING is organized. Or, because I see that everything is organized, I will now organize these bones and shells into a necklace that identifies me as a member of this tribe, and as so-and-so's daughter, not to be messed with--the order of community, the order of future thinking and planning, the order of relationships, expressed in orderly bones and shells.)

It is a fascinating question to me, WHY we believe in God. We DO, even if we don't. We believe in the God of science, or the God of the law, or the God of money--or even the God of atheism. BELIEVING IN SOMETHING seems to be a basic need. And some call it God--the pure essence of all the somethings we believe in. Or we believe, maybe, just in tomorrow; that the universe will keep spinning, and we will be in it. The God of tomorrowness.

Sometimes we are mistaken in the order that we imagine to be there (although chaos theory and ghost stories make you wonder if we are ever "mistaken" in seeing order). But order is a great need, whether we are mistaken on a given set of facts or not.

We may be very mistaken about human evolution--as we were about the earth being the "center" of the solar system. THAT possibility should most certainly be taught in science class: the great minds who have been dead WRONG (often because of limited facts--but also because of cultural or mental limitations, or a limitation on available tools).

There is OBVIOUSLY, to my mind, something--or a lot of things--we are NOT SEEING. Perhaps science, as it is presently understood, just doesn't have the breadth, or the tools, or adequate facts, to comprehend the totality of what we are--these animals who posit a God.

Isn't our positing of God--and our worshiping of various Gods--essential to the story of our evolution as physical beings? Has it not INFLUENCED our evolution as physical beings?

What has belief in God done to our selection for survival traits, for instance? Are religious restrictions on mating limiting the selection for survival (or assisting it in some way--for instance, by taboos on inter-bloodline marriage)? Why do we, alone among creatures, often select against the interests of survival? For instance, fertile people marrying infertile people? Why do scientists and doctors spend their lifetimes helping people with poor survival traits--such as serious genetic diseases--live and procreate? Does this not directly contradict the theory of evolution, that species pass along their best survival traits through selective breeding of the survivors?

I don't know if any research has been done on this matter, but it appears to me that humans are violating the laws of evolution all over the place, and are doing so largely based on religious or religious-related beliefs: such as the sacredness (religion) and equality (religious-related humanism) of every human being. We do not engage in random coupling based on obvious survival traits (the un-obvious might be the intelligence of a person with genetic disease), and we DO cherish individuals, and help them survive, prosper and procreate, no matter what they may contribute to, or how they may harm, the survival of the species.

Is this not God at work (whatever God is) ALTERING the PROCESS of evolution--toward some--dare I say?--higher goal than mere survival?

Mere survival, mere enjoyment of the flesh, and mere procreation have never been our gig. For some of us maybe, but not for most of us. We aspire; we long for; we plan; we manipulate whatever comes our way; we see order even when there is no order; we make order; we insist on order; we think and we scheme and we transform; and we create religious and humane principles, and punish the violators of them (or try to), and we see ourselves as SPLIT OFF from nature, sometimes above it, commanding it, other times in stark fear of it, sometimes trying to "get back to it," occasionally living in peaceful co-existence with it, but always, always alienated from it, to some degree.

We refuse to be ruled by nature--for better or for worse. That is a fact about us. And we thus, perhaps, refuse to be evolved the way nature has so far evolved living matter.

Maybe our LOOKING AT evolution--our perceiving it--is changing evolution (as the very process of observing subatomic particles can alter what they are). Maybe our evolution into sentient beings is changing the nature of the universe, even as we observe it and photograph it and posit theories about it.

And maybe that's what God is, the thing inside of us pulling the consciousness of the universe outside of matter, to exist apart from it and to transform it in some way, or make new universes, or just to be, to contemplate, to exist for its own sake.

Bones and shells can't tell us why the bones and shells are there, organized into a necklace. We have to imagine why. And is not that ability to imagine not both a product of evolution, and an influence upon evolution? Why should we limit the study of evolution to our digits and our backbones and our skull size--to the bones and shells themselves--and not include WHY--the why of the necklace, the whole, and what moves us, what motivates us, to live, as we do, alienated from nature, and often in outright defiance of its supposed laws?

These kinds of issues are lost in the very limited debate that pits science, on the one hand, against "intelligent design" (or a God-created universe) on the other. Although I am aware of the rotten political uses of this debate, on the rightwing side, perhaps they are leading us somewhere positive, in spite of themselves. We tend to dig in our heels, when such political assaults arise, and defend something that maybe shouldn't be defended: science as God, and strict scientific rationalism as dogma. Will we really ever understand the universe, or ourselves, from that limited point of view?

If only the rightwing were into the human mind playing with the possibilities, and not into enforcing THEIR dogma on us all!

And back and forth we go...





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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-04-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. HA. you never saw my spouse's clothes closet.
in disorder there is truth.
and much more.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. yep
the law of entropy in full display
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. You expressed some of my ideas
albeit in a much longer fashion.

This need for order is a weakness as well as a strength, IMO. For example, I recently attended a party held by a group of local progressive activists. I was amazed at how the topic of religion came up so quickly. Most were agnostics and atheists who scorned religion and were absolutely amazed that I could be a progressive and still attend church.

As time went on I noted how rigid, strident and dogmatic these people could be. They had their views (we talked about much more than faith, of course), their views were right and if you didn't agree with them you were a fool. (I got the same feeling I sometimes get when I'm with one of my fundie relatives.) Got me a little depressed, but that's beside the point.
Maybe this makes us feel safe, putting everything in a neat little box; this is black, this is white; I am right, you are wrong. A survival skill that helps us cope with the world.
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. Isn't this the entire argument in one sentence?
--the view that life is so complex some higher being must have designed it--

WTF is there to teach?
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. You got it n/t
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
36. You know what this "intelligent design" bullshit and the...
Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 11:11 AM by Javaman
"culture of life" reminds me of?

That moment in the movie, "beneath the planet of the apes", when the hero discovers a race of beings that worship a nuclear bomb.

A total bastardization of what peace/religion is supposed to be about.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
37. I believe in a form of ID
I think that some force put everything in motion and then left it alone

that's just me though
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