With Lenin's Ideas Dead, Russia Weighs What to Do With Body

[NVMojo]

October 5, 2005
With Lenin's Ideas Dead, Russia Weighs What to Do With Body
By C. J. CHIVERS

MOSCOW, Oct. 4 - For eight decades he has been lying in state on public display, a cadaver in a succession of dark suits, encased in a glass box beside a walkway in the basement of his granite mausoleum. Many who revere him say he is at peace, the leader in repose beneath the lights. Others think he just looks macabre.

Time has been unkind to Lenin, whose remains here in Red Square are said to sprout occasional fungi, and whose ideology and party long ago fell to ruins. Now the inevitable question has returned. Should his body be moved?

Revisiting a proposal that thwarted Boris N. Yeltsin, who faced down tanks but in his time as president could not persuade Russians to remove the Soviet Union's founder from his place of honor, a senior aide to President Vladimir V. Putin raised the matter last week, saying it was time to bury the man.

"Our country has been shaken by strife, but only a few people were held accountable for that in our lifetime," said the aide, Georgi Poltavchenko. "I do not think it is fair that those who initiated the strife remain in the center of our state near the Kremlin."

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/05/international/europe/05lenin.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

1. let the people decide on ballot-install Diebold machines in Russia--n/t

[truthisfreedom]

2. our country sprouts occasional fungi as well. bushus fungus is one i can

think of...

[saigon68]

3. Here is the "Big Guy"

[VolcanoJen]

5. He's looked better.

;-)

[saigon68]

18. Nothing like seeing the corpse of the Supreme leader

I wonder if they will stuff this guy some day






And put him in the window of SAKs 5th Ave?

[Rhiannon12866]

63. Thank you for this! You made me laugh and I needed that!

Rhiannon:rofl:

[TankLV]

59. He looks a LOT better than bunkerboy!

Can we trade our stiff for him?!

[Rhiannon12866]

7. I've seen him! :D

When I was in Moscow, I got the chance to visit Lenin's Tomb, and it's quite an experience. Not only was the line incredibly long, but security was very tight! Nobody is allowed to carry anything into the tomb, nor wear a long coat. When I asked why, I was told that someone had once brought in a gun and tried to shoot him!:crazy:

You have to pass muster with uniformed soldiers, stationed at the entrance, then proceed down a long, dark staircase, and he's in a room downstairs, under bulletproof glass. The line never stops moving, but I took a really close look, since I wondered if he was the real thing. And I hate to differ with Jen, but I've seen the recently-deceased who looked a lot worse, and he's been there since 1924! I asked about that, as well, and was told that he's re-embalmed every ten years. And nobody knows exactly how they do it. It's a secret method, passed from father to son. After all that work, it seems like kind of a shame to give up on the old guy now...:shrug:

[wrathofkahn]

10. Me, too.

A couple of times, actually. I go to Moscow every few years because my brother lives there. After the second time, I just decided it was a bit macabre; I realized that I was somehow comparing how he looked then to how he looked the time before (about 5 years earlier).

Those lines to get in to see him are always a mile long, even in winter! Standing on that side of Red Square in March will give anyone a whole new appreciation for the word "cold!" The wind blows right in off the Volga river, past St. Basil's Cathedral, and right along that wall, then out the main gate and up Tverskaya. It seemingly never stops.


I am curious why the sudden decision to move him now, when it's such a popular attraction. Also, all of the past leaders of Russia/USSR have stood on top of that granite (?) edifice to review what passed by (tanks, troops, etc.) and to view parades. I wonder if they'll take out the building.


Oh, and in addition to the embalming, I understand that he's kept pretty cold under that glass, too.

[Rhiannon12866]

47. That is totally cool that you have a brother in Moscow, so have an excuse

to visit. It is such an amazing city, with so much to offer. I've only been the one time, with a peace group, shortly before the USSR fell. My grandmother's tiny NC town had a sister town in Russia, and I was so fortunate that she invited me to join their group to make up the numbers. Our reason for going was to visit the sister town, Krasnaya Polyana, high up in the Caucasus Mountains. But we also visited Moscow, Tbilisi (capital of then-Soviet Georgia), Sochi (a resort on the Black Sea, close to our sister town) and what was then Leningrad (changed back to St. Petersburg). It was an amazing trip and I've always vowed to go back, but felt much safer when it was the USSR than I'd feel now. I'd love to hear more about your more recent experiences there.:-)

And I don't envy you visiting Moscow in winter! I was there in September and the weather was great, but I can't imagine their winters. Though I asked our Russian guide what they do about the snow and she said that they truck it out of the city. Sounds like a good plan to me and one I wish we'd adopt!:D

And I know about the interminable line! We were told that our little peace group had been moved up in the line, but it still was a very long wait. However, we really didn't mind, since it gave us a chance to chat with the locals (Did you notice that most people speak English? They are excellent with languages.) and to observe quite a bit. I don't know if it is still true, but it was a tradition for wedding couples to come there and bring flowers, and we saw several of these.:shrug:

And I agree that this is a strange decision to make now, so many years after the USSR fell. The Russians are nothing if not loyal to tradition and history. They are so proud of both the Winter and Summer Palaces, even though they reflect the decadence of the czars, because they reflect such a proud history and such amazing art and architecture. Though The Hermitage was reduced to rubble during WWII, they painstakingly reconstructed it, using the original plans.
:wow:

And I remember that Lenin was kept pretty cold! I considered myself lucky that I was wearing a jacket, rather than a long coat, since I didn't have to give it up.:D

Welcome to DU, wrathofkahn! We're so glad to have you with us! And tell me more about your trips to Moscow!:toast:

Rhiannon:hi:

[afdip]

68. with a nom de plume of wrathofkhan . . .

you must be a karl wittfogel fan???

[sabbat hunter]

12. ive even heard

that it is actually a wax statue of lenin and not actually his body. from a book i read once, supposedly long ago, his beard fell off, his body began to decay despite the embalmbing.


it was from a book on Mao, written by his personal physician, when they were discussing how to preserve Mao's body after his death.

[Rhiannon12866]

51. I heard the exact same thing, that this was a wax replica, and that's the

reason I looked so closely at him! I was determined to decide if this was true, LOL! And, from what I observed, I was pretty sure that he was the genuine article. But, as I said, he looked amazingly good, having been there for so long, and that's the reason I interrogated our guide, who explained that he was re-embalmed every ten years. She was really quite good, and friendly to us Americans, not something that was always true when I visited, just before the USSR fell. The Russians I spoke to really disliked Reagan, but warmed up to me and my peace group, after we explained that we supported Jimmy Carter!:D

And that is fascinating, about Chairman Mao. I think that my parents may have seen him. I'll ask my mother what she thought... Thanks!:shrug:

[geomon666]

76. Actually, it's every 18 months.

Great account at this link: http://www.artukraine.com/historical/lenin_makeover.htm

Lenin gets an extreme makeover every 18 months or so. The mausoleum is closed for two months and the body is immersed in a bath of glycerol and potassium acetate for 30 days. The skin slowly absorbs the solution, regaining its moisture and pliancy.

With current techniques, the body could last "many decades, even for 100 years," said Ilya Zbarsky, 90, a doctor who worked on the body from 1934 to 1952. His father, Boris, participated in the original embalming in 1924.

Lenin's blood, bodily fluids and internal organs were removed as part of the initial embalming. His eyebrows, moustache and goatee are his original hair - no molting. And his genitals are intact.

Whew! Thank heaven for small favors. :eyes:

[Rhiannon12866]

88. Fascinating! Thank you!

I had no idea that anyone had given up the secrets of how they manage to do this, but I doubt that the average visitor is looking for this kind of detail. And they probably weren't this forthcoming in the days of the USSR, which was when I visited, shortly before it fell.:shrug:

But I'm not surprised, since I said he looked awfully good, especially for a guy who'd been dead since 1924!:wow:

As for his genitals remaining intact, I'm not sure what the point is of this, unless it's a matter of pride for the embalmers. I did note that his facial hair remained, but I'm not sure that I needed to know what else they'd managed to preserve...:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

20. Me too.

When we went in fall of 1995, there weren't any lines, and we just went right in. I'm convinced they had some kind of blacklight on him, as he actually glowed. Weird.

They close down one day a week for cleanup and then once a year or so for any major work. There are rumors that only the hands and beard are his anymore, but I don't know. It sure looked like skin. Still, it's pretty weird.

[Rhiannon12866]

58. Thanks, my friend, it was totally weird for me, as well.

But I was determined to decide for myself if it was really him. What did you think? I decided that it was, after looking at him as hard as I could, plus asking questions, as I said.:-)

This is an incredible draw for both locals and international tourists, so I think it would be folly for them to give him up. Plus, what would they do with that side of Red Square? :shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

71. I think it's too historical to get rid of, personally.

I couldn't decide if it were really him or only mostly him. I do think the glowing thing was weird, though.

They bring this up every once in awhile. I'm not sure it's serious.

[Rhiannon12866]

75. I looked as closely and for as long as I dared and decided that it was him

No doubt the others there thought I was a little strange, LOL! And I agree that his place in history is far too significant to just dispose of him like yesterday's news... Did you know that Kruschev is buried in a place of dishonor, a remote site, among nuns? I saw that too...:-(

As for the glowing, who knows what they use to preserve him? Nobody knows except the father and son embalmers and they're not telling...:shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

78. He's at New Maiden Monastery's cemetary.

It's not a place of dishonor, actually. Many famous people are buried there. It was considered a dishonor that he wasn't buried in the Kremlin Wall, but they didn't bury him in just any old place. Many writers, politicians, and artists are buried there. It's lovely.

The coolest thing about his grave, I think, is that he asked an artist he'd condemned as a horrible artist against the State to do his grave monument, and it rather captures him in the black and white fractured-looking marble. I have a picture I took of it around here somewhere . . .

[Rhiannon12866]

89. Well, I did note that other less-infamous former leaders were buried in

th Kremlin Wall, and dishonor was the reason we were given for Kruschev's remote location. But, I agree. It's really a lovely spot.:-)

And thanks for the additional fact about the monument. I think I do remember that. This very appropriate, don't you think? And actually quite poignant...:shrug:

[UncleSepp]

28. Me too - on the 4th of July, very funny story

I went with a group of students for the summer to study at Moscow State University. We arrived on 3 July, got confused by the long nights (most of the US group was from Florida) and stayed out all night, and then ended up the next morning in Red Square waiting in line to see Lenin's tomb. It was cold for us thin blooded Southerners, and raining in half the square but not the other half. As we were standing there, I saw a flash of red out of the corner of my eye. A pro-Stalinist demonstration, with anti-American banners and Stalin portraits and such, was marching into the square. I told my fellow Americans it would be better if everyone stopped talking just then.

Surprisingly enough, my comrades complied. Overtired and giddy, I realized it was the 4th of July and here we were all standing in Red Square waiting to see Lenin while Stalinists marched past, and the entire situation struck me funny. So funny, in fact, that I got a terrible case of the giggles. I couldn't stop it, so I put my face in my hands and tried to keep it quiet. I thought for sure this was doom, DOOM I say, ten times worse than ripping a fart at a funeral, and nevertheless I just couldn't stop. As we came into the tomb and I caught my first glimpse of Lenin's face, I heard the voice of an old woman who had a young child in tow. She said:

"Look! Here you are playing. You should behave with some respect. Look at that young woman over there - see her? You should be like her. Look, she's so overcome with emotion at seeing him that she's in tears!"

At that, the tears became a complete sobbing breakdown...

[Rhiannon12866]

64. OMG, what a story!!! Thank you for sharing it!!! :D

The experience of seeing Lenin's body, laid out with such pomp and circumstance, after so many years, is a totally surreal one, as I felt, as well, so I sure can't blame you! But your experience here has mine beat! And, at least you didn't insult the Russians... I found them to be very friendly and sympathetic, especially when they learned that we were Carter supporters and not Reagan's. But this was in the final days of the USSR. Times sure have changed and I cringe to imagine what they must think of Americans, these days...
:scared:

[Qibing Zero]

38. I really hope they don't get rid of him, at least before I'm able to go.

nt!

[Rhiannon12866]

67. I agree. It really is an experience.

I've always been glad that I took the time to see him for myself. He's a huge part of history and I'm for him remaining just where he is, as well. After all, those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them...:shrug:

[Jack from Charlotte]

27. They should do like we do when we tear down an old stadium.....

You know they sell seats or cut up the Astroturf and sell little sections to the fans.

The Ruski's ought to chop old Vlad up into little bite size pieces. Put the little chunks in a small plastic cube and sell them off as souvenirs.

Raise a few bucks for Old Mother Russia.

[wrathofkahn]

43. Heh

"I saw Lenin dead and all I got was this lousy piece of finger." :D

[0007]

86. Put him on e-bay!

[Hardrada]

4. Ideas don't die.

Look at the persistence of fascism for instance. And even stupid ideas sometimes come back especially under the guise of religion.

[TomClash]

6. Or under the guise of Avian Flu

[Benhurst]

8. So what if fungi sprout on Lenin from time to time?

Things happen, even to the Great Ones.

Here in the States, strange things which pop up on The Leader's face from time to time, and he's more or less up and about.

Let Lenin be.

He's a tourist attraction, and at least he hasn't caused any trouble as of late.

[alphafemale]

9. He's Still Dead. People like to check on that.

Totalitarian fuk that he was.

Was.

As in Dead.

Yep.

Still dead.

:D

[Endangered Specie]

39. Indeed... same reason why so many people went to Stalin's funeral...

wanted to make sure he really was dead.

[Raster]

44. LOL! Yep, still dead.

[JawJaw]

11. Perfect Solution

There must be a "liberal" vacancy coming up on the US Supreme Court soon. Maybe Bunnypants could nominate Lenin's corpse for the position.

Well, we all know Lenin was a softie liberal now, don't we? See how balanced and statesmanlike George can be when he wants to be?

;)

[Gman]

13. I read where they had persuaded Nancy Reagan to put Ronnie's body

on display in the rotunda of the capital with 24 hour military guards. I wonder if Ronnie will still be there 80 years from now.

[Sabriel]

14. I'd vote for him over *ush

Heck, install him/it in the White House. He couldn't be any worse than the current Pretzeldent.

[calico1]

15. Displaying a long dead person

is just creepy imo. They should do with his body what they did with Evita's--BURY IT.

[day2]

16. He's Dead, Jim

In my best McCoy voice.

[Dulcinea]

23. Agreed.

People can visit his grave instead if they feel so inclined.

[CTyankee]

42. YES!

Why is there even a question? Bury him. Thank you and good night.

[BiggJawn]

17. Do they charge admission?

Losing out on a HUGE money-maker if they don't.

[knitter4democracy]

21. Nope.

The businesses around make good money, though, from what I saw ten years ago.

[BiggJawn]

26. Boy, old habits die hard. Not a Capitalist in the bunch, it would seem...

Businesses?

Souvenir shops?

[knitter4democracy]

72. There's a nice hotel nearby and GUM.

The street vendors are close-by, too. There are all sorts of people making money off the Kremlin, the mausoleum, St. Basil's, and all of Red Square.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[BiggJawn]

73. If they had Ronnie Ray-Guns on display like that here....

It'd probably be a $21 a ticket, "Timed Event" thing to go look at him.

I just think they're (the government) missing out on a hell of a money-maker not charging admission...

[knitter4democracy]

79. That's true.

They would charge at least a hundred bucks and then have it all go to the Republican Party somehow . . . :eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

19. start a religion, build Lenin Cathedral, and open a LeninWorld theme park

Hire Reverend Sun Myung Moon as a consultant.

The fungi that periodically grow on Lenin could be promoted to the masses as special Omens of Things to Come. This will require a high priesthood to interpret the Omens. High Priest would be a very good job to have.

/greedy

[Taxloss]

25. That's pretty much what the Soviets did.

He is in his own rather fancy mausoleum.

[henslee]

22. Ripley's Museum? Sell it to Fidel?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. Give it to ANSWER...

...and they can display it in their headquarters.

:hide:

[nvliberal]

29. Easy solution: Sell his body on eBay. n/t

[Bloodblister Bob]

30. LENIN 2006 WORLD TOUR

If the Rolling Stones can pull it off, Why not Lenin?

[nvliberal]

31. Best post yet.

I am laughing my head off.

[nvliberal]

32. Or, he can join Paul McCartney on his latest tour. n/t

[hogwyld]

33. Or he could join

The Grateful Dead! :rofl:

[Endangered Specie]

40. along with the other Lennon too?

:evilgrin: (yes yes I know, tasteless)

[TankLV]

61. And this Lenin is a lot better looking than Mik!

[CatholicEdHead]

34. Fark.com is bidding on the body

http://www.fark.com/2005/content/lenin/

"With controversy raging in Russia over what to do with Lenin's body, Fark.com has tendered an offer to the Russian Government to purchase Lenin.

When asked what he planned to do with Lenin, Fark Proprietor Drew Curtis noted that he had put the question to members of his wildly popular news and entertainment website. Some suggested a tour of the United States, including Disneyland "since it's a place that Soviet Premiers seem to want to visit," said Curtis. He also suggested that since Fark.com is located in Kentucky, perhaps a trip to Disneyland could begin with a driving tour of the United States. "We could stop in Moscow, Kansas, or Moscow, Arkansas, even Moscow, Idaho. Possibly even St. Petersburg Florida. I hear the Devil Rays are looking for a new manager, maybe he could submit a resume. Didn't Lenin say he invented baseball?"

Other suggestions for Lenin included cloning him, challenging Michael Jackson's elephant man to a fight, having him run for President in 2008, taking him to see the world's largest Cheeto in Algona, Iowa, using him as the second person in a car in an HOV lane, swapping him with Bob's Big Boy statue to see how long it takes before anyone notices, and having him put on a Yankees uniform and taking him to Fenway Park in a move that would surely offend everyone. Curtis also suggested reuniting him with Paul McCartney but was later disappointed to hear he was thinking of the wrong person.

When Curtis was asked how he might feel if Pravda offered to buy the remains of George Washington, he replied that he didn't think it was possible to buy them but that he would see what he could do about working a trade for actor Abe Vigoda. "Last I heard, Abe was still insisting he was alive but I think that's just an Internet rumor," said Curtis."

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1700401

[katamaran]

35. Betcha GoldenPalace.com will get in on it

Prop ole' Vlad up in the Pope's old VW and send him on a road trip.

[smirkymonkey]

81. Sorry to go off subject, but who is that adorable dog in your

avatar picture?

[Jose Diablo]

36. Why not stand him in the corner

and put some cigars in his hand?

[MarsThe Cat]

41. and a lightbulb in his mouth-

ala uncle fester.

i've told my wife that if she dies first, i intend to have her made into a floorlamp.

[Dem2theMax]

37. After reading the description of him -

"a cadaver in a succession of dark suits...in the basement of his granite mausoleum...he just looks macabre" -

I have to say, it reminds me of someone here in the good old U S of A.
Maybe we could swap the two? Who would notice the difference?
:evilgrin:

[Raster]

46. why, he could be darth cheney's stand in. and lynne's used to fucking

dead people, she wouldn't know the difference.

[Raster]

45. Let's run him for office in Missouri--see if he can beat John Asscrack.

[Geo55]

50. Replace 'im with Georgie....n/t

[anotherdrew]

84. "Lenin's a communist!" they'd shout and for once be right. dead AND red

Maybe just move him to his home village for final (we hope) burial?

[LisaL]

48. Lenin should be buried. He never wanted this.

Russians don't put mummies on displays, except for him. It's ridiculous what has been done to him.
I think it's abuse of a corpse.

[brentspeak]

49. If Lenin didn't want this, then all the more reason to do it

Of course, being in Hell, he's got a lot more to be concerned about.

[LisaL]

55. There is no hell.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Hell is a Christian invention to keep the faithful in line

Fear is the control mechanism of Christianity.

[Geo55]

52. yep

Main Entry: ma·ca·bre
Pronunciation: m&-'käb; -'kä-br&, -b&r; -'käbr&
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from (danse) macabre dance of death, from Middle French (danse de) Macabré
1 : having death as a subject : comprising or including a personalized representation of death
2 : dwelling on the gruesome
3 : tending to produce horror in a beholder
synonym see GHASTLY

Strange behaviour....but it does point out how powerful "images" are to humans.

[Raster]

54. Shameless corpse exploitation! Good thing he's dead.

[IndianaGreen]

53. Sorry, but Lenin's ideas are very much alive and well

as are Karl Marx, Frederick Engels, and Leon Trotsky's. After seeing the true nature of capitalism, thanks to George W. Bush, the world is re-discovering Marxism.

As to Lenin's body, he should have been buried next to his mother in St. Petersburg, which is what he wanted in the first place.

[LisaL]

57. Lenin lived. Lenin is living. Lenin will live.

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[Psephos]

60. Le Roi est mort. Vive le Roi!

You've seen one revolution, you've seen them all.

Peace.

[manic expression]

80. Well said

:thumbsup:

[eattherich]

62. I say we buy the body and run him for the senate.

I can think of a couple places he could win.

[Rhiannon12866]

66. How about having him installed as VP when Cheney is forced to resign?

He couldn't do worse... and he will remind everyone a little of Cheney, as well.:shrug:

on edit: Sorry that I didn't notice, at first! Welcome to DU, eattherich!!! It's great to have you, and your sense of humor, with us!!!:toast:

[eattherich]

70. You think I was joking?

Okay I was. :)

Thanks for the welcome.

[Rhiannon12866]

74. No, actually I didn't think you were joking.

I mean stranger things have happened. Mel Carnahan still won his Missouri Senate race even after he was killed in a plane crash, against the likes of John Ashcroft... So Lenin might stand a good chance in the right race.:shrug:

And you're welcome for the welcome. It's still great to have you with us, LOL!:woohoo:

Rhiannon:hi:

[jpgray]

65. Whatever they come up with, maybe we can use it on the Brazilian joke

Speaking of things long dead that need immediate burial... x(

[sniffa]

69. has he been sainted yet?

y'know, the body hasn't rotted and aLL...

[JVS]

92. OMG Lenin is an incorruptible! Cannonization now!

[Carolab]

77. Call Kenyon. I'm sure they'll be happy to help. n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

82. well, i'd pay a $3.50 a pop if he was rigged to dispense beer...

pull his finger, watch him shoot beer from his nose...

he would've liked it that way... money for the cause. :evilgrin:

[anotherdrew]

83. sell him to the chinese, he'll make great cosmetics...

hell, he's probably not much BUT cosmetics.

[anotherdrew]

85. great opertunity to film: Weekend at Vladimir's

http://www.aha.ru/~mausoleu/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/

[Buns_of_Fire]

87. There's an administration in Washington that desperately needs

a bearded corpse right about now. Just sayin...

[crispini]

90. Notice they're not debating about what to do with Mao...

or Ho Chi Minh. I've seen both of them and they looked pretty good for dead guys. Mao looked a lot better than Uncle Ho, though.

I'm kind of noticing a theme here.... what is it with communists and dead bodies?

[NVMojo]

91. couldn't believe this thread was still alive! LOL!

[BronxBoy]

93. God

I knew I shouldn't have come in here!

:rofl: