(Canadian) MPs want to see solicitation legalized

[sonicx]

It's been talked about for years, but now a parliamentary committee is recommending that Canada legalize the soliciting of prostitutes.

The Justice Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws spent the summer touring Canadian cities, looking into the troubles surrounding the world's oldest profession.

They're now drafting their report and have concluded that legalization would make street prostitution safer and crack down on pimps.

"It should be legalized and regulated for the sake of people who are working in the industry," says committee member and Vancouver Island Liberal MP Keith Martin.

Prostitution is already legal in Canada but actually soliciting sex is illegal. The committee wanted to know what that distinction meant for prostitutes themselves, and so talked to them, as well as police and community groups, to find out.

more = http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051005/prostitution_051005/20051005?hub=Canada

[dutchdemocrat]

1. Yes

Progressiveness is good. Glad to see some sensibility somewhere.

The juxtaposition of this article to http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/5/141258/420">another on Indiana Republicans Seeking to Criminalize 'Unauthorized Reproduction' is stunning.

"Unauthorized Reproduction?" "Gestational Certificates?" Legal "Petitions for Parentage?" No, it's not something out of The Handmaid's Tale, or a reference to a now-defunct European fascist regime.

It's the focus of a new law currently being drafted by Republican lawmakers in Indiana, seeking to limit fertility treatments solely to married women who have successfully petitioned the court for state authorization.

The driving force behind the bill is Republican State Senator Patricia Miller, chair of the state senate Health Finance Commission.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=151x3281#3287

[Darth_Kitten]

2. Progressiveness?

I don't agree, I think we have better things to do than make it easier for men to buy sex and cheat on their wives.

I'm old school thinking this way. ;)

[achtung_circus]

3. Flip side

we have better things to do than spend enforcement dollars on sex and pot.

[Darth_Kitten]

5. that too!

:)

[sonicx]

6. If men want to do that

that's their own business. It shouldn't be criminalized.

[Darth_Kitten]

12. If men want to bring Aids to their wives....

I guess let em?

Sorry, the selfishness of some men has led one of my best friends to have an Aids test. There are innocent people in this matter.

[sonicx]

19. If a man gives his wife AIDS, that of course could be delt with

by the authorities. Otherwise, it's a private matter that can be dealt with by the people invloved. Merely cheating on your partner is not grounds for jailtime.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

23. Most AIDS in this country is in the gay community

Using your logic we should bring anti-sodomy laws back.

[Darth_Kitten]

29. You are using your own logic....

to project onto me. No thank you. :eyes:

Can I speculate on what you want to bring back?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

33. No. I have it right

You're using AIDS to justify government regulation of consensual adult sexual behavior.

[dutchdemocrat]

11. Yes Progressiveness

And it's not about making things easier for men to cheat... it's about protection for women from men in what is generally regarded to be the world's oldest profession. You can't make it go away by ignoring it or criminalizing it. Accepting it and empowering the government and sex workers to control is a progressive solution.

I live in Holland - where prostitutes have a union and are not only tested for and educated on diseases on a regular basis - they pay fair taxes and contribute to their own welfare and protection.

[Darth_Kitten]

13. I disagree...

If we wanted real protection for these women we could provide for them opportunities to join a union in a less destructive profession, and perhaps education opportunities as well? Do they NEED to be hookers?
So they are "educated" and tested for diseases? That's not fool-proof and diseases can still be transmitted.

They pay taxes? So do the women whose health is put in grave danger every time their men **choose** to act like self-serving jerks. So do the mothers and fathers of young girls who are propositioned on the streets playing with their friends or just on their way to school.

Prostitution will always be here of course, but why should society in general have to condone such behaviour? Not with my tax dollars, thank you. ;)

[dutchdemocrat]

15. So what do you want to spend your 'tax' dollars on?

More money is spent on policing it than it would be to face up to reality by acknowledging and controlling it. It won't be stopped. You won't see 14 year old girls on the streets here in Holland, but I sure saw a lot of them on the streets of L.A. and other big cities in the US.

And if they are paying taxes, like they do in Holland, then they are paying for it aren't they? And you would pay less because the cost of policing it would decline.

The formation of a union allows prostitutes to have a voice - and I reiterate - prostition is the oldest profession. That does not make it right within your moral confines but that's okay - to each and their own I suppose. But they do have a voice in Dutch, Canadian and some other northern European countries like Germany, Sweden and Norway. I personally have never been to visit a prostitute, but I don't condemn those who do - it's a choice.

I feel politically, you are certainly not a progressive, with the wide brush you are painting with. At least not within the European political paradigm.

I am not here to change your mind - I am merely stating my view which happens to be a lot different than yours... for a number of reasons - one of which is probably the fact, I am from another country and I have lived in many places in the world - including the US.

By the way - we are not just talking about women here.

[Darth_Kitten]

17. Excuse me, who are you to judge who is a progressive and who isn't?

:shrug:

[uniden]

21. no matter how many jobs

plenty will find it easier to have sex once a week, and make more than being a greater at Walmart for 40 hours. Welcome to human nature.

[TrogL]

22. I've met a few around here

I live just off a "hooker alley". They're pretty much unavoidable.

Most have zero job skills, learning disabilities and social problems.

[TroubleMan]

24. "Destructive profession?"

Doesn't have to be - for men or for women. The only time it's destructive is when the criminal element is injected into it. Some people do it because they like it, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's only wrong when people are forced into it, and that only happens when there's criminal elements involved.

Where there is legalized prostitution, there are no sexual diseases. They are registered and are tested often. There are no abusive pimps or clients anymore. The deal is now on the prostitute's terms - not the john's, jane's, or the pimps. The client can no longer be abusive.

Basically you take all of the bad stuff out of prostitution when you legalize it. It can become a job that a person can be proud of instead of one that people shun.

All the points that you've cited that are bad things about prostitution are all the reasons that we should legalize it. If we legalize it, we take out all of the bad things that you've cited.

Also, your tax dollars wouldn't be paying for it. The income tax generated would pay well over and above whatever the state testing and certification program would cost. Right now there are thousands of prostitutes that pay no taxes - now all that money will be taxed. It would easily pay for itself and then some.

[uniden]

28. all of Donald Trump's wives had money

and careers before meeting him. yet the choose to marry him because they wanted a lot more. If that isn't prostituion, I dont know what it is. Should those types of marriages be banned so women don't get "expolited" ?

[Threedifferentones]

30. You're example of AIDS is

exactly why it needs to be legalized. With legalization comes regulation and STD TESTING. Obviously criminalization didn't stop that man from getting AIDS from a prostitute, regulation would have. And propositioning girls playing outside should obviously be illegal, since anyone playing in the street is probably not 18.

And you're argument about society not condoning such behavior can be used about anything. Abortion, gay marriage, pre-marital sex, drugs, alcohol, should all of these things be illegal?

[uniden]

20. if you're old school

than you shouldn't do any of that. How is your business what someone else does? Taking someone out (and spending $200) with intention of having sex is legal, buying a ring is legal, why shouldn't cash upfront be just as legal?

[Megahurtz]

27. You know, I'm not trying to flame here or anything,

but just know that if your husband chooses to cheat on you,
he doesn't need a prostitute to do it.
Unfortunatly, there are most likely many willing women in this country,
and there are tons of "Escort Services" here in the U.S.
even though prostitution is not actually legal here (exept in Vegas)

At the risk of sounding really stupid,
why would your cheating husband buy the cow,
when he can get the milk free?:+

Since prostitution is already legal in Canada, and it's unlikey that it will ever stop,
and I can see that they are just trying to decriminalize it to protect these women,
and to get them off the streets.......................

Uh oh.......................oh shit!

:hide:

[pitohui]

34. prostitution is NOT legal in vegas, why do ppl keep repeating this

go to vegas sometime, prostitution is not legal in vegas or anywhere in clark county

i don't know where ppl get this idea

yes, prostitution is legal in some rural nevada counties who have no other means of attracting income

in nevada a hooker has the choice of working in a brothel where she is tested for disease, security is provided, it's legal blah de blah

OR

she can work in vegas, where it's ILLEGAL, not be bothered w. tests that would eliminate her from the job because she is a drug user & prob. has multiple diseases from herpes on up, she can keep all the money she get off the john, including stolen money, which is a LOT more than she can make doing it legally

i don't see the benefit to the hookers of making it legal and most of them clearly don't see it either -- pay taxes, have invasive health tests, be in a brothel where others get a cut of yr take -- or do it quietly under the table & sometimes you hit the jackpot when you can roll a big winner

tell me again what's so great abt legalization for the hooker, because i'm just plain not seeing it -- and it seems to me that the majority (not all but the majority) of hookers given the choice prefer to remain underground

not to go off on a tear at you in particular, but i'm tired of ppl who know nothing abt the business saying it's legal in vegas when abt two seconds' check of the facts would tell you it isn't legal there

sheesh

we're supposed to be the reality-based folk, let's keep it that way

laws against prostitution are not well enforced in vegas but that is not legalization that is decriminalization, an entirely different matter

--sincerely, pitohui the nitpicker

[Ayesha]

4. Street prostitution

is inherently dangerous to women and impossible to regulate. It contributes to crime, HIV and STDs and forces people who aren't part of it to witness it. I believe that a woman has the right to sell her body, but it should be in a regulated brothel or in the privacy of a home, not on a public street.

[achtung_circus]

7. Get the pimps,

Hell's Angels and their ilk out of the business. Make it a deal between the woman and those men she chooses to be customers.

With the money going to the women there is less lilihood of dangerous behaviour and if it's taxed money the government wins too.

Cops can concentrate on "real" crime.

[Darth_Kitten]

14. Look at all those hookers ending up dead....

You hear it in the news all the time, not a dangerous profession?

[sonicx]

18. And that wouldn't be as much a problem if it was regulated, would it?

It's not now and needs to be.

[TroubleMan]

26. Legalizing it stops that problem immediately

nt.

[Darth_Kitten]

31. How?

:shrug:

[TroubleMan]

35. Because it takes it out of back alleys, hotel rooms, and cars

If you legalize it you will see brothels like the Moonlight Bunny Ranch (the one on the HBO specials). It has a gate, security guards, and cameras everywhere. Prostitutes won't be walking the street anymore - they'll be in what's almost like an office building with bedrooms and bars - or more like a small club type scene, with security guards, accountants, managers, cameras, ect.

Prostitutes have to go to a secluded location when having sex now, because it's illegal. It's much easier to kill, rob, abuse, ect, in a dark, secluded area.

Once again, when you take the criminal element out of it, all the problems you have cited go away. The problems you have cited are extremely valid points - but all of your arguments are reasons why it should be legal, not why it should stay illegal.

[Darth_Kitten]

36. thanks for explaining.

:)

[pitohui]

39. this has proven to be completely untrue, ever heard of vegas?

in nevada you can go to legal brothels but, in the end, hookers have ZERO problem getting customers right in vegas, where it's illegal

you don't take any criminal element out of prostitution by providing some upscale bordello miles away from reality that only the most well-to-do will bother to use, and only a minority of the most attractive hookers would be able to pass the tests to work in, and claim this will do anything to impact prostitution

illegal prostitution will remain because too many whores have serious problems that would prevent them working in the legal places, anything from herpes or other incurable STDs to drug addiction, if you think those women are going to stop working because you legalized sex for sale of the most elite women...good luck, you're dreaming

[TroubleMan]

40. But it's not legal in Vegas, and hence the problem

Also, don't you think that men or women would rather go to a prostitute that has been certified to not have an STD, rather than take a chance on one who might?

Also, the reason that there's only elite women at that one (I don't consider them elite, but that's your words), it because it's not in a convenient location.

Just like strip clubs....you have the really expensive ones that have the model type women, and then there's the ones that are not so expensive that have the women who are overweight or might be considered average. There are people like me who prefer the average or normal looking women over the model types. If those type of places would be allowed to exist, they would.

Also, it's not going to happen overnight. If you legalize it, it will take at least 10 or so years to get the criminal element out. You'd have to be patient...Rome wasn't built in a day. There will always be a small percentage of criminal element, but why not take out as much as you can? Why not get as many prostitutes out of bad situations as you can?

Bootlegging alcohol didn't stop immediately after prohibition was ended. However, now how much of alcohol in America is bootlegged?...my guess it's less than 1%. The same would eventually happen to prostitution if it was legalized. It would take a while...maybe even 20-30 years, but eventually illegal prostitution would be cut down to the levels that bootlegging alcohol is now.

Anytime you take something that is popular and people can make money on, and then make it illegal...the criminals jump for joy. You just gave them a new source of income. Once again I'll cite prohibition. The gangs in America exploded in strength, power, money and influence as soon as prohibition kicked in. It was like a boost of adrenaline for criminals. This will happen anytime you take something that proven to be popular and profitable and make it illegal.

Sure there's still going to be some street prostitutes doing it illegally on the side, but why not try to minimize that as much as you can? If you keep it illegal, the problems you've cited will never be solved and never get any better. Why not help as many as you can?

[pitohui]

38. it isn't as dangerous as working in a convenience store

workers in many professions face danger & i have not seen statistics to convince me that prostitution is more dangerous than many other jobs, some of which pay considerably less

tho i would certainly be interested in seeing such statistics if they're available

[MarsThe Cat]

41. you're confusing tv news with tv melodramas...

i can't remember the last time i heard a news report about a dead hooker- C.S.I. is the only place they show up with any regularity.

[lumpy]

8. Prostitution will always be with us.

It Should be legalized and regulated.

[Laelth]

9. Ya gotta love Canada. n/t

-Laelth

[pokercat999]

10. I love their summers July 3-4 and 5th, all three days.....lol

[SidDithers]

16. Was 26C, ~80F yesterday in Toronto...

we're having a bit of an extended summer this year :)

Sid

[TroubleMan]

25. Legalize it and you take out all of the bad things about prostitution.

Get rid of the pimps, abusive clients, STD's, AIDS, and all that other stuff.

It becomes a regular job, just like any other. The tax income will easily pay for any testing/registration/enforcement.

[Darth_Kitten]

32. I can think of better things for my tax dollars...

:)

How many other occupations NEED so much testing/registration/enforcement for really so little benefit for society as a whole? ;)

[TroubleMan]

37. Like I said before, it will bring in more tax dollars than is spent on it

Your tax dollars won't be paying for it. The income tax the prostitutes pay will easily pay for it, and they'll be some left over to pay for things you like.

As far as other occupations that need testing/registration/enforcement:

sports

tattoo artists

interior decorators

restaurants (you can always make the food yourself-we don't need restaurants; they're just for entertainment and enjoyment)

alcohol and tobacco

_____

There's millions of jobs like that, but we as Americans think of sex as taboo, and have a prejudice against it. We are a very prudish society, but that's not for everybody. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that your taxes shouldn't go to help it. That's a moot point anyway, because the taxes generated off income tax would more than pay for itself.

[MrSlayer]

42. Good for them. It's the only sensible thing to do.

Keeping prostitution and drugs illegal only makes criminals out of otherwise law abiding people. Both should be legalized and regulated.