Wiccan Priestess Loses High Court Appeal

[deadparrot]

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court rejected an appeal on Tuesday from a Wiccan priestess angry that local leaders would not let her open their sessions with a prayer.

Instead, clergy from more traditional religions were invited to pray at governmental meetings in Chesterfield County, Va., a suburb of Richmond.

Lawyers for Cynthia Simpson had told justices in a filing that most of the invocations are led by Christians. Simpson said she wanted to offer a generalized prayer to the "creator of the universe."

Wiccans consider themselves witches, pagans or neo-pagans, and say their religion is based on respect for the Earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_prayer_lawsuit

[SteppingRazor]

1. Damn.... that sucks.

I mean, I can't claim to know any Wiccans, but I was really rooting for Simpson in this case, if only to stick it to the fundies. Bummer.

[rodeodance]

33. i am with you!!

[davidinalameda]

116. I'm sure you know some Wiccans

if you just look around

:-)

[endarkenment]

2. What a bullshit decision. I hope she has the funds to appeal.

[DuaneBidoux]

16. There is no appeal to the Supreme Court

[endarkenment]

20. Well of course there is.

You just have to find a different approach to get the issue before them again. In fact the dissenters typically provide a list of ways that the issue can get back into consideration.

[Pepperbelly]

30. Unless they just refused certiorari ...

They might well not comment at all in that case.

[tocqueville]

3. in a secular state there are no prayers AT ALL at governmental meetings

prayers belong to churches, not to government offices

[Crunchy Frog]

9. If they do have prayers (which I agree they shouldn't)

then no religion should be excluded or discriminated against. If people want to live in a country where there's no separation of church and state, then they're going to have to get used to the fact that there is a diversity of religious beliefs here.

[cascadiance]

10. Maybe they could use this ruling to get RID of other prayers...

in these buildings. If the Supreme Court finds that they can't have wiccan prayer, there's supreme court ruling that says it is NOT OK to hae Christian or other prayers EITHER! Either appeal this decision or USE IT to get rid of state-sponsored prayer!

[MADem]

54. YEP!! nt

[FuzzyDicePHL]

14. Agree

110%

[hogwyld]

4. I guess it's a Christian nation after all

Now everyone else, get out!:sarcasm:

[Realityhack]

8. I really wouldn't mind leaving if I could

Sure its nobel to stay and work for change and all that... but I would just asume go somewhere where people are more generaly in agreement with my views.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to do that. Next time a freeper says 'then get out' I think I will ask them to fund it.

[daleo]

5. The court's explanation

"Simpson lost at the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which found that the county had changed its policy and directed clerics to avoid invoking the name of Jesus."

If true, this would go some way to eliminating the bias. But it still excludes FSM.

[Realityhack]

7. FSM rocks!

Prair does not belong in public meatings and if they have it just not using the term Jesus should not get them out of being forced to allow people from any religion from performing an equaly nutral prayer.

[benburch]

6. Reminds me of...

http://www.bloomington.in.us.nyud.net:8090/~lgthscac/churchandstate.jpg

[Q3JR4]

11. You can say THAT again... n/t

[joefree1]

12. Well I hope the Christofascist will remember this

When we pagans are in power and we make them participate in our Spring Equinox Orgy. :evilgrin:


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

[ninkasi]

17. I'm looking forward

to Beltane, myself.

[Chovexani]

27. Would we really want them to, though?

:scared:

[sakabatou]

13. Imagine the uproar if they alowed it...

man, I'd love to hear the loony right....

[phylny]

21. That is similar to my standard statement when people complain that their

Christian or Hebrew schools deserve to get public funds via vouchers. I say, "Then you will have no problem when the community funds the first Devil Worship school, correct?"

But...but...but...!!

Um hmm.

(No offense intended toward any devil worshippers here.)

[jokerman93]

25. None taken

jus' kiddin'. I'm a kidder.
:evilgrin:
:party:

[IndianaGreen]

15. So Jesus is now the official religion of the US

I can't hardly wait for Christians to start murdering each other because one group uses the wrong formula for baptism, "in the name of Jesus," while the other group used the more traditional "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

This is what happens when a religion achieves primacy through governmental action.

Get ready Catholics, and Mormons! The Christian Right thinks that the former are the church of the anti-Christ, and the latter is a cult.

Now, do you understand why religion must be confined to the home and the place of worship...

[reprobate]

66. Just look at Iraq for an excellant example.

[Zynx]

97. I am a Catholic and have always supported seperation of church and state

for the reason that I fear what would happen if the radicals on the right took over and were able to legislate as they pleased. Catholics would be oppressed just like the Muslims, Jews, and Atheists.

[bluestateguy]

18. This is why it's best not to have official prayers before govt. meetings

be they Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim or Christian. You get fueds like this. Religion in government is a recipie for religious warfare, which is very dangerous.

[Mari333]

19. So we do live in a fascist theocracy.

I didnt want to believe it, but now I do.
fucking assholes.

[KittyWampus]

31. Mari, I can't thank you enough for postig the graphic of Christ.

[pelagius]

22. Prayers don't belong in government meetings...

...and I have a perfectly fine church where I and others who believe as I do can offer up gobs of public Jesus (tm) brand prayers for government leaders or anything we darn well please.

[melody]

23. a sign of the Supreme Court future, I'm afraid

So much for equal treatment under the law.

We're living in Jesusland, despite the intent of our founding fathers.

[Ignis]

24. Some religions are more equal than others...

apparently.

Talk about activist judges. :eyes:

[Chovexani]

26. When Chimp was running for pres.

He said he didn't think Wicca was a religion. This was during the Fort Hood controversy in 2000.

If you are Pagan and/or GLBT in this country you are a second-class citizen, period. Talibornagains would round us up and burn us at the stake if they thought they could get away with it.

[Cults4Bush]

65. Yep I keep warning people, I keep telling my "friends and family"

that the idiots they voted for are violent extremists. They just don't care about other spiritual paths and the freedom to explore them. Just like freepy types dont give a shit about that freedom either. Why do they hate America?

ALso I think the Military Pagans controversy was in '99 when it was decided that after all these years it was finally ok to let Military Pagans have use of the base chapel for our rituals and ceremonies as long as we didnt do a living altar or have orgies or any naked stuff, no sacrificing either. lol...

Bush dont like pagan people. His daddy dont like atheists. His own personal cult dont like anybody not in their cult.

The most dangerous person to be in America is a gay pagan abortion provider with dark skin.

I hate these people and honestly the vows of pacifism can only hold so much force before one has to make a choice to help a path of the least amount of violence. Somedays I am quite sure that means that I may have to just go ahead and do them before they do my loved ones. Most times I just laugh though, they are like cartoon character trolls.

[Chovexani]

67. I couldn't remember whether it was '99 or '00

I just remember being really, really pissed off. Imagine in this day and age having to defend something as simple as the right to practice your beliefs. :eyes:

Most times I just laugh though, they are like cartoon character trolls.

That's one of the more apt descriptions of them I've heard! :rofl:

[Bravo411]

28. Kicked and voted .. n/t

[Bravo411]

29. Won't let me vote it. Older than 24hrs.

[rodeodance]

37. me either.

[really annoyed]

32. Yeah, but Christians on the right are persecuted

x(

I hate this ruling.

In a way, this is "payback" to minority religions.

[rodeodance]

35. The county "issues invitations to deliver prayers to all Christian, Muslim

and Jewish religious leaders in the country. It refuses to issue invitations to Native Americans, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Wiccans, or members of any other religion," justices were told in her appeal by American Civil Liberties Union lawyer Rebecca Glenberg.

The county's attorney, Steven Micas, said that the county's practice was in line with the Supreme Court's endorsement of legislative prayer as long as it did not proselytize, advance or disparage a particular religion.......

[really annoyed]

38. "Disparage"

That is exactly what has happened here. As a Wiccan, she is not worthy enought for prayer.

A real Christian society would show tolerance toward the beliefs of others. All religions involve a higher power, and I don't see why there is a problem letting somebody express that in their way.

I acutally don't have a problem with prayer at these meeting, as long as EVERY member is allowed to express their faith. The First Amendment allows free expression for all.

[Shine]

34. Bummer.

I hope she can fight it.

[rodeodance]

36. kick

[arwalden]

39. Score Another Win For The Christians! The Little Shits!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. Just Like I Don't Have a Problem With Limiting Presidential Debates...

...to candidates polling at least some minimum percentage, I don't have a problem with limiting religious invites to those religions with at least some minimum percentage of adherents in the US.

DTH

[LostinVA]

43. Well, I agree.... not

So, since Jews are only about 2% of the population why should they vote? I mean, they are a huge minority in the US, right? So, what's the point? Why should they have the same rights as gentiles? Right? Huh?

Yeah, it IS the same. The whole point of our governmental system is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Pagans, Native Americans, Hindus, etc.

And let me say this: I live very close to Cynthia's area, and Central VA has an extremely large and active Pagan community of all paths..

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. Your Slippery Slope Argument Fails Badly

This isn't about voting rights. This is just like the Senate Chaplain, and it has just about as much impact and relevance...which is to say, practically none.

"The county's attorney, Steven Micas, said that the county's practice was in line with the Supreme Court's endorsement of legislative prayer as long as it did not proselytize, advance or disparage a particular religion."

This is already decided law.

When splinter religions start gaining enough adherents and mainstream awareness to generate a presence in the local community, I suspect they'll get an invite. Just like the Greens will have their candidate in the Presidential debate once they rise above a couple of percentage points.

DTH

[hootinholler]

60. lol

When splinter religions start gaining enough adherents

For example, Hindu, AmerIndian and Buddists are splinter religions? What exactly did they splinter from? All protestant christians are splintered from catholicism.

-Hoot

[DoveTurnedHawk]

77. Nice Clip Job

you forgot "and mainstream awareness to generate a presence in the local community". It's kind of important.

Should the Amish be forced to bring in Hindus, American Indians, Buddhists and Wiccans too? Local community standards are still relevant to analyses such as these.

DTH

[hootinholler]

96. Sure, I clipped too much...

The point was not an objection to community standards, but to point out calling ancient religions 'splinter' is just a little off the mark.

You see, this argument (not ours here, but the larger one) is about the insinuation of religion into the body politic. The only thing that mainstream awareness has to do with that is which flavor of religion will be insinuated. Matters not if the religion is labeled splinter.

To answer your question, no the Amish (or anyone else) shouldn't have to bring in other forms of prayer unless they insist on making thier religion law by establishing a policy of approved religions invited as prayer leadership. The only alternative is to not have official prayer as part of official proceedings per the 1st ammendment.

The relevant part is " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Now official policies are part of the law. When any religion is given priority over any other religion, as a matter of policy, that is establishment.

Oh, and yes, I actually do think that the Chaplin in congress is unconstitutional, along with the phrase In God We Trust as our motto.

-Hoot

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. Fine, Substitute "Tiny" in Place of "Splinter"

That is probably closer to my intended meaning anyway.

DTH

[LostinVA]

104. WE're not talking bout the Amish and their community

We are talking about the United States and states' governments, and how we are protected from this discrimination by Federal Law and the Constitution.

Iabsolutely love how you don't seem to give a damn about civil rights in this case, only your own agenda. The US is not about that, although some would love it to be.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

108. And What Agenda Would That Be?

You're the only one who seems to be pushing an agenda here. The only agenda I have is recognition of case precedent and reality.

And last I checked, the Amish still live in the US, the Senate is situated in the US, and we're talking about the residents of a county near Richmond, Virginia.

DTH

[Dervill Crow]

91. Splinter religions

Hoot said: "For example, Hindu, AmerIndian and Buddists are splinter religions? What exactly did they splinter from? All protestant christians are splintered from catholicism."

Christianity itself is a splinter religion. Where do you suppose all the pagan themes and holidays in christianity came from, e.g., christmas trees, easter eggs, a god on a cross (Mithras, anyone?), candlemas, thanksgiving, all hallow's eve . . . the list goes on and on.

Not to reduce religion to a bumpersticker (like the RWers do), but our goddess did give birth to the christians' god.

[hootinholler]

98. Ah...

Christianity itself is a splinter religion. Where do you suppose all the pagan themes and holidays in christianity came from, e.g., christmas trees, easter eggs, a god on a cross (Mithras, anyone?), candlemas, thanksgiving, all hallow's eve . . . the list goes on and on.

The first sentence I agree with, the list are not examples of splintering, but assimilation.

I care not who begat whom.

-Hoot

[LostinVA]

61. Sorry, it doesn't

My argument wasn't voting rights, it was rights to not be discriminated against by the majority. That's what this is. The same argumnet ahs also been used to not give gays civil rights.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

78. Again, Mountains and Molehills

We're not talking about civil rights. We're talking about invites to a non-denominational prayer exactly like the Senate Chaplain who has been opening Senate services for over two centuries, without any increase in religiosity or other dire consequences in this country. Quite the contrary, in fact.

DTH

[LostinVA]

105. Right, civil rights. Discrimination in places of government

Whether state or Federal. Not mountains and molehills, but both mountains. Only allowing prayers from these three religions is wrong, especially when the area has a good-sized Pagan and Buddhist presence.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

109. Sorry You Feel Left Out

I bet the Greens feel left out, too.

DTH

[nickgutierrez]

63. On the other hand...

Couldn't this be interpreted as Government taking sides in favor of one religion over another? Why isn't this a 1st amendment violation in that respect?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

80. Because of Established Precedent

"The county's attorney, Steven Micas, said that the county's practice was in line with the Supreme Court's endorsement of legislative prayer as long as it did not proselytize, advance or disparage a particular religion."

That is the key. This is a long-established Supreme Court precedent.

DTH

[nickgutierrez]

84. See, this looks to me like disparagement.

Making the distinction between traditional and non-traditional religions, and restricting who can make prayers along those lines, is disparaging to the non-traditional religions, isn't it?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

89. Is Excluding the Greens Disparaging to Them?

There are a zillion religions out there, just like there are a dozen political parties out there. I don't think it's unreasonable to set some kind of baseline minimum in terms of numbers or support.

That is a quantitative distinction, by the way, not a qualitative one that requires the use of discretion.

DTH

[nickgutierrez]

93. There is a difference...

...between a political party not being allowed to attend a debate for an election that they have no chance to win, and what seems to me to be a clear violation of the right to freedom of religion. While representation in terms of membership does and should matter in the first case, in the one currently under debate there is an active discrimination against a "non-traditional" faith that seems to me to be in direct violation of the first amendment.

We are not electing a religion, and there isn't and shouldn't be a debate about the merits of any particular religion in this thread. But the distinction between traditional and non-traditional religions when deciding who is and isn't allowed to say a non-denominational prayer is arbitrary, subjective, and IMO extra-constitutional.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

94. Again, I'd Be Fine With No Legislative Prayers at All

But in light of the Supreme Court precedent, that's just not going to happen.

People are talking about slippery slopes. So if we let every religion under the sun give a prayer, what's going to happen then? It would be total chaos. "Next up, the guy from the Church of Bob the Sub-Genius! Next week, the Satanists!" I think drawing a line is appropriate, and of course you're going to piss off people who are outside of the line, but hey, that's what happens when you pick a quantitative (or at least arguably quantitative) standard. The Greens get pretty mad each election when the number is 15% too.

If anything, I think Nader et al. have a STRONGER argument for inclusion than the folks in the article, because the Presidential election actually MATTERS. This is a simple, non-denominational prayer that has been going on in some form or another at the Senate for over 200 years, and nothing dire has happened.

DTH

[LostinVA]

64. And, re: Cynthia's community

I'd wager their are more Pagans than those of the Jewish faith, even if MAYBE not Wiccans, in her area. Several ADF and other Druid communities, many Wicca and other Trad covens, definitely many solitaries. Twin Oaks is very close by, too. There are MANY Neo-Pagans of all "denominations" in Central VA, they just don't proselytize, so....

*Not targeting Jews, esp. on this Holy Day, but since the Chesterfield government is using them as an example, I'm running with that example.

[VegasWolf]

71. I agree, we should limit the chaplin function to snake kissers and floor

rollers only! We must keep a certain sancity here!

:sarcasm:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

81. Funny, I Wasn't Aware They Did That on the Senate Floor

Or in the legislative gatherings in the article. And I'm sure you're not aware of them doing that either.

DTH

[VegasWolf]

83. Hey, they work according to your percentage for religious adherents!

They are all over the South in their tents, why shouldn't they have a chance?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

88. So Go Advocate That to the Office of the Senate Chaplain

I've got better things to do with my time, personally. ;-)

DTH

[VegasWolf]

90. No, the Republican controlled senate is already a circus!

:)

[Solon]

45. That is the most bigoted thing I have ever heard...

If you are a minority, you have to meet some SUBJECTIVE minimum in order to get notice. Hell, I know some Pacific Islanders who would like to meet you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. If That's Truly the Most Bigoted Thing You've Ever Heard

Then I suspect you haven't led a life subject to very much discrimination at all.

DTH

[Solon]

50. So I exaggerated a little bit...

big freaking deal, but there is a huge problem with your argument, and that is that if the government give ANY preferential treatment to any religion, in any way shape or form, then you can lead to other types of discimination. Also, as far as numbers or some other such BS, as if all religions have some type of litmus test, well, for Wiccans, there is no central body that keeps track, plus we have a lot of "crossovers" as well, many Wiccans will also call themselves Pagans, New Agers, etc. and vice versa. Looking at the most recent census data, there are 134 thousand Wiccans in the country, more than Sikhs, and more than those who follow Native American religions. This isn't including the additional 140 thousand people who identify themselves as Pagans, nor the additional 11 million 246 thousand people who, for whatever reason, refused to answer the question. A good chunk of them could also be Wiccan or Pagan as well, we don't really know, but it is a good assumption, considering how many Pagans and Wiccans are still "in the broom closet" so to speak.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/04statab/pop.pdf

[DoveTurnedHawk]

51. As I Said in Another Post

You just described to me what sounds like a bunch of different splinter religions. When splinter religions start gaining enough adherents and mainstream awareness to generate a presence in the local community, I suspect they'll get an invite. Just like the Greens will have their candidate in the Presidential debate once they rise above a couple of percentage points.

And last I checked, the Senate Chaplain still hasn't led to any slippery slopes, even after two centuries.

DTH

[Solon]

52. What is with your insistence that they don't get an invite...

only because of their numbers? That is far from the truth, its discrimination, plain and simple. Hell, while this case ended badly, another one didn't, at least legally. I'm going to bore you with a lot of details but here we go.

A Wiccan Priestess, Darla Kaye Wynne filed suit against the city of Great Falls, South Carolina for mentioning Jesus Christ in council prayers before meetings. Guess what happened to that case?

http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/5210153p-4734742c.html

They have to pay her legal fees, she will not get any reward, but they shouldn't have appealed it as they did. In fact, she never even asked for any money, just a cessesion of this unconstitutional act. She won, but at high cost to her, more than money could ever pay.


This article shows one of the examples:
http://www.thelancasternews.com/articles/2004/08/16/news/news03_prayer.txt

The past incidences include having her cats poisoned, one gutted and staked in the front yard with the words "Die Witch" written in blood. The Chief of Police himself was "ordered" to ignore her and her complaints by the town council. This was caught on tape BTW. Plus, a little more recently she was beaten up by two men, in her own front yard, no arrests made in any of these incidences.

http://www.aclusc.org/Page/Clipping/State/040919Knauss.html

Is this simply an example of the town ignoring a minority religion, or actively fostering hate?

Also look at the ACLU South Carolina's front page:

http://www.aclusc.org/

[DoveTurnedHawk]

75. Totally Distinguishable Cases

No one is talking about the establishment of Christianity as a religion. The case in the article actually indicated that the practices were changed to a more non-denominational prayer, which I think is totally in line with past Supreme Court cases.

The Great Falls case you're citing here clearly violated the establishment of religion precedents. The case in the article didn't, at least after they changed their practices.

DTH

[Solon]

53. I wanted to clarify something for you...

that you seem woefully ignorant of, and that is what these various terms mean. Paganism and Neo-Paganism are "Catch all" terms that are ERRONIOUSLY used interchangeably with Wiccan. Think of Paganism as the same level of term as Monotheism would be. Very general, in modern terms, as a belief in a Western or Near-Eastern Religion that predates Christianity or adopts beliefs from pre-Christian Europe and Near East. That is a very rough description of what most people call Paganism in today's terminology.

These "splinter" groups didn't splinter from anything, they evolved independently from each other, from various different sources. An Example are the Reconstructionist Religions, these are religions that are reconstructions from the exact same religions from various different regions of Europe or Africa adapted for modern use. They try to recreate the rituals and invocations, as closely as possible, of those of ancient peoples from these regions. Kemetics try to reconstruct the rituals and invocations of the Ancient Egyptian religion, Hellenes do the same for Greek Religion, etc.

These are separate from Wicca, which is a specific religion with specific beliefs that differenciate from other Pagan type religions in many respects. However, as I said, Pagan is a catch all term, and not always accurate. Wicca is a modern religion, about 50 years old, that adopts many of the practices, beliefs, and rituals of Ancient Celts from Britian, Ireland and German sources, and Witchcraft as well. The only splintering is details usually, a Wiccan is still a Wiccan, whether a member of an established coven, like a Gardenian or is a solitary practitioner.

These are called Traditions, think of them as Denominations, and think of Wicca as equivelent in the heirarchy to Christianity in general, a Christian is still a Christian if they are Baptist or Catholic, regardless of what they think of each other. Actually, that is one thing that sets Wicca far apart from Christianity and many other religions.

We Wiccans believe in a "Many Paths" type of theology, in other words, there is no wrong way to believe, only in misapplication of labels. There is no punishment for not believing as we do, and we are forbidden from proselytizing. Hell, debates rage within the community as to whether it is ethical to raise your own kids in the religion, that it should only be of the child's free choice at a certain age, and having no exposure of the religion is actually encouraged in some circles. Can you imagine a Christian even having a doubt about whether that is ethical?

There is no governing body for Wiccans, there are organizations, many political, others social, almost none that send out religious decrees. Most usually fight for our rights, like allowing Wiccan Soldiers to worship on Army bases. The Army actually doesn't give a shit one way or the other, Wicca is mentioned in the Army Chaplain's Handbook, and I heard there are a few Wiccan Chaplains as well. Not to mention that other groups such as Native Americans and the Hindu Alliance also help us, and we help them, no matter how futile it seems. Both filed "friend of the court" briefs on the Wiccan's behalf in the case in the OP.

[Cults4Bush]

72. Ahhh thanks for saving me the trouble.

The poster does seem to know next to nothing but Paganism... or Buddhism or Hinduism. The poster does indeed seem to back disenfrachisement of the minority religious sects (no matter how fast their devotees grow in number). The poster also seemed very very clueless as to how many Pagans there are in that community.

Seems the poster is inot the old school definition of "cults" being anything not of Judeo Christian belief (at least that is how the poster comes off).

Funny enough he seesm to be in agreeance with the Shrub who pretty much stated that Pagans in the military shouldn't be allowed to worship their faith at on base facilities, because he didnt even think that it qualified as a real religion. Again that is at least how the poster is coming off.

Its all splinter groups... Again the poster has no clue as to how wrong a misrepresentation that is and in what ways. Nor do I think that the poster cares.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

76. You're Right, I Am Ignorant of These Things

Just like I'm ignorant about a ton of other esoteric trivia about things that don't impact my daily life or enter my mainstream consciousness.

However, I do thank you for an interesting read. Really.

DTH

[LeftyMom]

48. By most counts this country has more Wiccans than Jews. nt

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. Source?

I personally find that very hard to believe.

DTH

[really annoyed]

56. Here ya go...

Oh, and did you know the US Army has a text for chaplains on how to deal with Wiccans in the Army? Doesn't it break your heart?

Wiccans cannot be "counted" because they don't have an official "church." Estimates go up to 500,000. Not only that, it is one of the fastest growing religions in the United States.

However, when it comes to Jewish people, you have to take in secular and religious counts. You can be Jewish without being a follower of Judaism. Counts go up to 3,995,371.

And secularism beats Judaism - 38,865,604. Gee, how many atheists do you see in the Senate? Jews gets more representation than non-theists, and they are a SMALLER MINORITY!!!

Gee, I busted your misconceptions with FACTS again!!!

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

[DoveTurnedHawk]

74. From YOUR Link, I See Judaism at 1.3% and Wiccans/Pagans/Druids at 0.1%

What were you saying about facts again?

DTH

[Beaverhausen]

82. Another thing to know about Pagans

A lot of us are still in the "broom closet" due to the huge misunderstandings about our path by most of society. No one in my family and most of my friends don't know that I am a pagan.

When I told one friend he asked me if we worship the devil. :eyes:

So trying to "count" pagans is a pretty tough thing to do.

I bet you know plenty of pagans...you just don't know that is what they are.

[Dervill Crow]

Pagans and neopagans are everywhere.

We just don't advertise or proselytize.

I identify myself as Wiccan on Zogby polls, but I would not when speaking to another pagan because I am not an initiate in an official Wiccan tradition (although I am studying with a BTW outer court).

Counting the Wiccans and saying that is the percentage of pagans is like counting Missouri Synod Lutherans and saying that is the number of Christians.

tomayto tomahto, athamay, athahme.

[really annoyed]

55. What part of "free expression" do you NOT understand?

I take it the First Amendment only applies to "established" religion, hey? It doesn't say "Christians only."

And with your raving about the Senate Chaplain.... They have had ONE Roman Catholic in service. They have a LARGE amond of adherents in the United States. Heck, there have been THREE Unitarians!!! GASP!!! Sorry, but Unitarians don't make up a great majority of Christians either.

I can't believe you think it's OK to "limit" people because they don't have a majority. I guess Jews and African-American fall into your category...

Whoops! The current Senate Chaplain is BLACK!!

Also note...

"The Office of the Chaplain is nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian."

http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm

Oh boy, did you know one chaplain was a Seventh-day Adventist? You know, one of those "minority" religions.

Gee, guess you lose on all your arguments. Maybe you should have done more research before inserting your foot in your mouth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Chaplain

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. You've 1000% Made My Point

All of the Senate Chaplains have been Christians. The legislative body in the story is even more open than the Senate.

This is established Supreme Court precedent. This isn't about race, and it isn't about some dire predictions of what's going to happen as a result of a non-denominational prayer at the opening of a session of some kind.

The Senate Chaplain has been around for over 200 years, and during that period of time, religion has played an ever-decreasing role in our society, and other non-Christian religions have flourished. So what's the doom and gloom danger from a simple "nonpartisan, nonpolitical, and nonsectarian" (all of which I support completely) prayer again?

And to reiterate a point from another post: I'd be MORE than fine with none of these prayers at all. But in light of the reality of the past Supreme Court precedent, I don't see the decisions described in the story as any kind of big deal at all.

DTH

[hootinholler]

99. Because non-sectarian prayer is

Impossible, or at least meaningless.

IMHO, the precedent is wrong. The chaplin is unconstitutional, no matter how one dresses it.

-Hoot

[DoveTurnedHawk]

101. Fair Enough

I understand your position. Like I said, I wouldn't blink an eye of the Supreme Court reversed itself. But in the meantime, I just can't get myself exercised over this, because I don't think it's a big deal, and because I think the invites are primarily a quantitative rather than a qualitative standard. Just like you need 15% to be in the debates.

DTH

[LostinVA]

106. Because it's not, when the prayers are ONLY led by

a priest or minister, rabbi, or imam. That's leaving a hell of alot of people out of the loop, and is stamping the brand of approval on these three religions only.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

112. So Where's the Line?

What about the Church of Bob the Sub-Genius? Scientologists? Satanists?

Drawing a line at some quantitative number is fine with me. Obviously the people who are on the other side are going to be unhappy with that. But hey, that's reality for you sometimes.

DTH

[LostinVA]

121. If it is a religion that meets the legal definition of a religion, yeah

Satanists and Scientologits are legal religions. You yourself said they are just saying an inclusive prayer, right? They aren't praying to Lucifer or Xenu... so yeah. They are religions. The Church of the Sub-Genius does not meet the legal definition of a religion.. and yeah, I know this for a fact, because I know someone who tried to register it as a religion. I don't agree with either of their beliefs, or Mormons, or Baptists, etc., but they are religions.

There are Wicca churches in VA, in THAT community of VA.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

124. Sorry, There Are Thousands of Registered Religions

And they're not all going to be able to speak. A quantitative cutoff is reasonable. You prove my point by your extreme example.

DTH

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Egads.

Someone tell me I didn't read that.

Now I have to gouge my eyes out.

[arwalden]

62. I Have A Grapefruit Spoon and a Potato Peeler... Pick One...

... and I'll use the other one on myself.

[StopTheMorans]

58. well, if you're going to be intolerant, you might as well be consistent

[LibertyLover]

59. So how about keeping prayers

in their proper venue - churches, synagogues and other houses of worship and out of governmental arenas, like . You know - that old 'seperation of church and state' thing?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. I Wouldn't Have a Problem With That Either

The Supreme Court has consistently ruled, however, that prayers of the nature described in the article are Constitutionally permissible.

DTH

[Cults4Bush]

68. You do realize how insulting that is to minorities, right?

Of course you do, but you dont care.

You dont think there is a percentage here of Pagans, Bhuddists and Hindus?

Who gets to decide the minimum percentage? Christians? You? Give me a freaking break.

Its either all or none otherwise "equal rights" is just another mouthpiece for the religious reich to orally rape and satisfy their lust of power.

I think your policy is one of regression.

[Chovexani]

70. Apparently he's not familiar with the term

"Tyranny of the Majority".

His post made me ill.

[Cults4Bush]

73. Oh the poster is aware just doesn't care.

COmes off as trying to be quite elitist about it as well.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. Tell It to the Green Party

And yes, I'm very aware of what it means to be a minority.

Not every splinter ideology, religion, political philosophy or belief is going to get equal play in our society. Consider it regressive if you like; I won't mind. I consider it reality.

DTH

[Bridget Burke]

95. What the hell is a "splinter" religion?

There are not very many adherents represented in this stagnant remnant of the Old South? Perhaps. But Hindus, Buddhists & Sikhs are members of well established faiths--in the world & in the USA. They may have (wisely) avoided settling in this inbred little burg, but they do not represent "splinter" religions.

The county seems proud of Pocahontas, but it rejects Native American religions. I'm sure the old colonists exterminated them quite efficiently.

I found this link at ePodunk.com's page for Chesterfield County. (I'm not sure of its validity since they classify at least one Orthodox church as "Main Line Protestant")

www.thearda.com/FR_Index.html?/RCMS/2000/County/51041.htm

As of 2000, the largest religious group by far is "Unclaimed." Atheists, agnostics--or members of your "splinter" religions?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. Again, Replace "Splinter" With "Tiny" If You Prefer (eom)

DTH

[LostinVA]

111. You mean Splinter=Minority

That is exactly what you're saying, so say it. Small equals minorities, so just screw 'em.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

113. Nope, I Mean Splinter = Tiny

As in, that's reality. I also don't see voter forms supporting various African and Asian dialects, or Basque, or the languages of certain indigenous tribes of North America, Australia or South America, either. Why aren't you taking up their banner? How can you be so callous and uncaring? Such tyranny of the majority!

DTH

[LostinVA]

118. No, you don't, - you think splinter=tiny-minority

You yourself said that, that it's all a numbers game, and only the majority religions win. YOU said that many times.

What your saying about the dialects doesn't even make sense. If they are citizens, they can vote. This is not a constitutional issue, and is not the tyranny of the majority. You need to go take a civics refresher course, if you really think that,a nd aren't just being a contrarian.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

120. And You're Still Free to Practice Your Religion

Not every tiny ideology, religion, political party, etc. is going to receive the same attention as others. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

BTW, it's a bummer that your ignore thread option doesn't appear to work. And shouldn't you be off to work, too?

DTH

[LostinVA]

122. I never said I was going to work

I'm going to work out, and I am putting this thread on ignore when I sign off in a few minutes. But, that's not any of your damn business, is it? ACtually, no, I'm just putting YOU on ignore. *giggle*

Bearer of bad news? Sonny, don't even try it. I know what the world is like better than you. I've been fired for who I've dated, amongst other things. Bearer of bad news? Whatever.

Did I saw everyone should receive the same attention? Nope, never said that. But, they shouldn't be discriminated against. So, Chesterfield should ask Cynthia, local NA medicine men (of which they are plenty), Sikhs, etc. every know and then. No one asked for them to be invited as often as CHristian clergy, just to be invited as is their due.

Sorry to be the bearer of news, DTH, but you just don't get it. *sigh*

And yeah, YOU are on ignore now, because I have to hear bigots all day, so DU should be proud of them. WE Pagans do magic, remember... so POOF, you're gone from my DU. Enjoy your spitting on other people's rights.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

125. Sweet!

You know what they say about not being able to stand the heat, and all that.

DTH

[LostinVA]

110. The Green Party not being in debates is NOT the same as

discriminating against only certain religions! Talk about mountains and molehills.

But I agree with the other posters, you just don't give a damn about anyone else's rights, because if you did, you would not be saying what you are saying. I have always respected the Greens and thought they were progressive, but if your beliefs are indicative of them.... well, I'm glad I'm a Democratic Socialist.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

114. The Greens Have an Even MORE Legitimate Beef, IMO

Because the Presidential election actually MATTERS, unlike an opening non-denominational prayer the likes of which have been given by Senate Chaplains for over 200 years, with no known ill effects on freedom of religion in this country.

DTH

[LostinVA]

117. No, they don't -- and glad you don't think civil rights matter

Very telling, your saying that. This is a constitutional matter. I wish we had a parliamentary system here, but we don't. I wish we had ten major parties, but we don't. Mr. Nader had things on a roll until 2000, and I was rooting for him even when I wasn't voting for him.

But, the Greens being allowed in a debate is not the same as someone's Bill of Rights being tramped upon.

And, FORGET THE DAMN SENATE CHAPLAIN. That has nothing to do with the Chesterfield case. Here, I can do it too: wahwahwah SENATE CHAPLAIN wahwahwah SENATE CHAPLAIN. Please.

Have fun pissing on my rights. Glad you think your wants and agenda are more important than the life and future of our nation. I'm going to go work out now.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

119. You're Still Here? Didn't You Put This Thread on Ignore?

And if you really, truly believe the Senate Chaplain has nothing to do with the Chesterfield case, then you do not understand case law and precedent on this subject.

And I care very much about civil rights. I just don't care about a non-denominational prayer that only a vanishingly small percentage of people even care about, much less are affected by.

And until you start fighting for, say, the right for Basques to vote here in their own language, you're pretty much the same as me. Everyone draws lines and prioritizes their fights. This one isn't mine.

DTH

[usregimechange]

41. One more reason why multiple establishments will never work

[HuffleClaw]

42. hmmm. this is about MONEY methinks when ya peel away the layers

ok, this makes NO sense. the county ONLY accepts prayers from jews, muslims and christians', while refusing all others and courts accept this as 'inclusive' ? wow.
my guess is that the SCOTUS doesn't want to have to say WHAT faith 'qualifies' for such privileges, for such a 'qualification' is a tacit ENDORSMENT of said faith. its a real can of worms. for example, the 'church of the most holy pink fluffy dust bunnies' ... could 'qualify' and THAT would then let them claim other religious based rights, such as tax-exemption...

[Chovexani]

69. There's only one problem with that argument

Wicca has been recognized by lower courts since the '80s. In 1985 there was a landmark Virginia District Court case called Dettmer vs. Landon which ruled that Wicca was a religion for First Amendment purposes. The Fourth Circuit affirmed that ruling in 1986. Wiccan and Pagan groups have also enjoyed tax exempt status since around that time. Maybe SCOTUS felt there was sufficient precedent, who knows.

IIRC, sometime in the early '90s SCOTUS heard a case involving Santeria, regarding the legality of animal sacrifices (we don't do that in Wicca, but Santeria is also an oft-misunderstood minority religion). FWIW, SCOTUS ruled in favor of the Santeros.

[newspeak]

44. before Christianity

Dionysius, Jesus, Mithra, all born of virigin mothers and died for the "sins" of man. A matter of fact Dionysius died on a cross. Go figure! So what's pagan?

[VegasWolf]

79. The Wiccans have to admit that Ashcroft puts on a much better

show when he is rolling on the floor and speaking gibberish! You can't beat that for entertainment.

[LostinVA]

92. Way more exciting than casting a circle....

[newspeak]

103. when you talk of "splinter religions"

First, Hinduism is older than Judaism, Buddhism and of course, Christianity. I have a book about the similarities between the parables of Jesus and the parables of Buddha. You know, most are the same. The argument is that Buddhism is five hundred years older than the Christian movement and during that time beliefs migrated into the middle east via India. So what "splinter religion?" It seems Christianity is a compilation of various beliefs, with a hint of Roman (Constantine) influence (to the bad I might add). I'd say Christianity can be considered a "splinter religion."

[newspeak]

107. oh, and by the way

the next book I'll be reading is "The Fountain-Head of Religion" by Ganga Prasad. "A comparative study of the principal religions of the world and a manifestation of their common origin from the Vedas."

[LostinVA]

115. And Paganism is way older than Christianity

Actually Christianity was begat from Paganism. Maybe we Neo-Pagans don't do the exact same rituals that ancient Pagans did (thanks to the conquerors destroying records), but we emulate the spirit of the ancient ones as best we can. Animus is older than the concept of the Christian Trinity. People were worshiping the Mother long before they did the Father. And the power of the drums is millenia older than church bells.

Pagans don't proselytize, and many keep it quiet, because people like you and the people in Chesterfield will harass them. Beacuse many of your posts are very bigotted.

Bah! Thread on ignore. The bigotry in your posts literally astounds me.

[newspeak]

123. may be what we're missing here

is finding the common ground in religions. That is what I'm doing. I once worked at a "new age" shop (lost to find a better term), sold books, crystals, statues etc....All religions were covered. Had a man come in and ask me what do you think about all of this. Well, I told him that everyone was on their own spiritual path and there are religions older than Christianity. He told me that in his heart he knew his beliefs were true-I told him that it was great for him. Started to proselytize-finally told him that I was willing to fight for his freedom of belief, but I did not share his beliefs. Walked out!

[YouthInAsia]

126. Come one...everyone knows that only Christians count!!! Jeez

:sarcasm: