Execs Have Eyes on Cuba (Vulture Alert)

[guajira]

U.S. vultures can't wait to turn Cuba into a hell-hole like Miami.

snippets:
Sergio Pino, a leading home builder in South Florida, said he was ready to expand his operations into Cuba once Castro was gone. He said his company, Century Homebuilders, and Lennar, a national builder based in Miami, are even helping draft building codes that could go into place once Cuba becomes an open market.

''I dream about the moment when I can go back and help my Cuban family and help my Cuban brothers rebuild Cuba,'' the Cuban-born Pino said.

But American investors, barred by U.S. law by doing business in Cuba, would face competition there from foreign companies already operating there, particularly those from Canada and Europe. Asked by an audience member what effect that competition would have on U.S. businesses, Pino said he hoped a post-Castro government would punish those doing business with the old regime.

''Those Europeans and Canadians invested in a country that doesn't care about their people,'' he said.
more....

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12887418.htm

[henslee]

1. Artilce in t odays Miami paper about racetrack owners paying

for politicians trips in order to get slot machines at track. Another article about developers going deeper and deeper into farmland and untapped wilderness. Miamians are asleep. They need to wake up. Their town is being raped by developers and part time residents.

[Dr.Phool]

5. Not just Miami

The entire state. I live on the Gulf Coast, north of Tampa. New developments EVERYWHERE!

[henslee]

6. If anything could convince me of a higher power it is the natural beauty

of a place like Florida -- which is now being sliced and diced and sold off. The everglades are among the greatest natural gifts on this earth. And they are being destroyed. the lakes, the rivers, the gulf.... ahh, why even go on.

[Mika]

7. That's their plan for Cuba too.

Florida doesn't even come close to the unspoiled natural beauty that is Cuba, its rainforest, its wildlife, its reefs, etc.

Cubans just won't accept this attempt of a US corporate takeover the way Floridians have.

[MarsThe Cat]

52. the reefs in/around cuba are already in bad shape-

and they take quite awhile to become restored.

[Mika]

58. What?? Cuba's reefs are some of the best in the world.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Cuba's reefs are in bad shape? Marine biologists from around the world go to Cuba to study the reef systems there to better understand the unspoiled reefs of Cuba and compare them to their reef systems at home in order to better preserve them.

It is the lack of industrialization in Cuba, as well as strong environmental protection laws, that have kept Cuba's reefs in great shape. The greatest threat right now to Cuba's reefs is the rising temperature of the Caribbean waters.

[MarsThe Cat]

66. not having been there, i guess i'm a victim of mis-info...

i thought i'd read somewhere that the impoverished populace and evil communists had savaged the reefs to sell coral and such...my bad.

BTW- the absolute worst reefs i've ever seen were/are in the John Pennekamp Marine "Sanctuary" in Florida, good ol' U.S.ofA.

if the reefs in Cuba really are that good- i hope i get the opportunity to dive them in my lifetime.

[Bacchus39]

56. wildlife??

I guess maybe you mean fish or perhaps birds. but Cuba hardly has any mammals. maybe some bats

[Judi Lynn]

81. Some of us DU posters were all posting on another message board

when it was announced, around 2000, that a new mammal species, never seen before anywhere, had been discovered. News of this, with photos made it into American newspapers and tv shows, National Geographic, etc.

Cuba has long been attractive for biologists, having things like the world's smallest frog, the world's smallest hummingbird, crocodiles, and a ton of other rare species.

Cuba Saves Five Internationally Important Wetlands

GLAND, Switzerland, January 6, 2003 (ENS) - Cuba has set aside some of the most important wetlands in the Caribbean for protection from development and climate change. Calling them "extraordinarily valuable," the Secretariat of the Ramsar Convention announced today that the Cuban government has designated five areas for the List of Wetlands of International Importance.

Designation of wetlands under the Ramsar Convention brings increased publicity and prestige for the lands, and the increased possibility of support for conservation and wise use measures. The five Cuban sites include an array of coastal wetland types and provide support for many species of plants and animals, some of them rare or endangered.

The efforts by Cuban authorities to designate these new sites have been assisted by the Living Waters Program of WWF, the conservation group. They are added to the large site that Cuba had previously listed under Ramsar, Cienaga de Zapata, a major wintering site and stopover for North American migratory water birds, also a WWF project.

At 313,500 hectares (1,210 square miles) Buenavista Bay, in Cuba's central region, is already a national park, a protected area, and a UNESCO Biosphere Reserve. As described by Julio Montes de Oca of the Ramsar Secretariat, who describes all of the five Cuban wetlands, Buenavista Bay includes extensive beaches and dune systems, coastal lagoons, mangroves and karstic mound formations that are unique within the Cuban archipelago.
(snip/...)

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2003/2003-01-06-02.asp

[Mika]

82. I just wish you could go there, Judi.

Cuba is special & beautiful.

I have never seen anything so beautiful. The country around the river is full of trees, beautiful and green and different from ours, each with flowers and its own kind of fruit. There are many birds of all sizes that sing very sweetly, and there are many palms...


log of Christopher Columbus
for Sunday 28 October1492
(in Cuba)

[Judi Lynn]

83. Wonderful! I've never seen photos close up of those little mountains.

Is that around Vinales? The formations are so unusual, it's startling when you see the first photos!

Here's a Vinales photo I just found:



Beaches, mountains, streams. Too bad Colombous abused and killed the citizens he found there. They were absolutely trapped with no hope of rescue from the bloodbath.

It was a shock to learn that some of those natives escaped into the hills and are living there under protection now.

Beautiful country, like ex-CIA agent Phil Agee's name for his travel agency in Cuba: Cuba Linda.

[not fooled]

84. Perfect site for a golf course

what a 'puke developer would say

How beautiful! Gee, we are taught in 'Murka that Cuba is just one big commie slum. Propagandized against the country by our gov't--what a shock:eyes:

[Imagevision]

72. Do you think we'll be allowed to use the "eminent domain" law?

hahahahahahaa....!

[Mika]

2. Gotta love the Bendixen poll

From the OP link

Of those polled, 72 percent industry would be ''negatively impacted'' by a democratic Cuba, and 32 percent thought real estate would be hurt too, and 22 percent said local agriculture would suffer.

Still, 61 percent of those surveyed thought a democratic Cuba would impact their industry positively

:crazy:

[Mika]

3. Look at the lies and hype

From the OP link

Pino said he hoped a post-Castro government would punish those doing business with the old regime.

''Those Europeans and Canadians invested in a country that doesn't care about their people,'' he said.

Philip Peters, who studies Cuba for the Lexington Institute think tank, doubted current Cuban investors would lose their foothold once Castro departs.

''I've spent a lot in time in Cuba, but I've never detected hostility toward foreign investors,'' said Peters, noting that Cubans working in foreign-backed businesses generally earn more than other Cuban workers.

Yep.. US investors just hate when workers earn more.

[Mika]

4. Cuba will get Lincoln Diaz Balart's 100 orders (like Bremers 100 orders)

Privatize/corporatize the entire social infrastructure that the Cuban people have worked on for 40+ years.

Unlike the USA, Cubans haven't had homeless nor people without health care in their country for four decades.

Yeah, right. They'll go for it. NOT!

[soothsayer]

8. The cruise ships are ready in Key West. Soon as Cuba opens

up, they're there!

[Mika]

9. Umm.. Cuba IS open. It is the US that bans US cruise ships.

If Americans could go to Cuba legally (without the US ban on travel) then they could easily see that Cuba is already open to the world.

It is the US gov that has isolated Americans from Cuba, not the Cuban government.

Cruise ships from the rest of the world do port in Cuba. Just not cruises that operate in American jurisdiction. The US Helms-Burton law forbids it.

[Vogon_Glory]

27. Cuba Is Open For Cruise Ships? Izzat So?

Is Cuba REALLY open for cruise ships? Izzat so? That doesn't seem to be what Fidel Castro is saying. He certainly DOES have strange ways of saying just how friendly his regime is to the cruise ship industry.

http://www.radiojamaica.com/news/story.php?category=0&story=19657

[Mika]

42. LOL. A LTTE isn't fact

Hmmm.. I guess that the cruise ships that I saw in the waters of Cuba were mirages. ;)

[Vogon_Glory]

43. Castro's Cruise Ship Remarks And More Unpleasant Facts

Once again, a Fidel Castro admirer lets his enthusiasm for the current Cuban regime interfere with his ability to face unpleasant facts. Fidel Castro DID in fact say that about cruise ships.

Here's another citation:

http://www.ratb.org.uk/html/fidel150405.html

<<...There are many hotels and buildings there, but what they mostly have are the cruise ships —they come from miles around— that have everything on board; bedrooms, dining rooms, recreation, everything. What is more, they are ruining the economies of Caribbean countries which also suffer from hurricanes, droughts sometimes, and from measures, like those taken by Europe, which removed the preferential treatment their bananas had, because of pressure from the United States which protects and shelters its big transnational which have developed big plantations on the continental mainland and don't want to know anything about small competition —if that's the right name for it— from countries in the Caribbean, like Jamaica and others, where the banana was one of the most important products. They took all that away from them.


They had sugar preference as well, in sugar production, others were producing sugar and recently they also took the preferences the Caribbean had away from them.


The basic thing left to these islands, and I have just been talking for hours and hours with the prime minister of Antigua and Barbuda and with others, the prime minister of Dominica —you have read in the papers that they were here and that we had a lengthy talks— and they explained the tragedy affecting them because of these cruise ships. And I said to them: Look, we had a few cruise ships here when they were European cruise lines, now all these lines have been absorbed by big companies from the United States. The cruisers are getting bigger and bigger, 2,000, 3,000 passengers, so that hotels are hardly needed. They leave their rubbish in some of those places, they spend a few dollars buying some souvenirs, they don't stay in any hotel, they don't provide any works for the labor force there that make their living from tourism. Everything is on the ships, it's ruinous. I said to them, "You may be sure that no cruise ships will come here. Cuba will not allow cruise ships to come and those who want to travel, let them travel in what they can find, but cruise ships will not be allowed to enter". We already know them well enough.


I have told them, and I see they are giving more thought to rejecting them because I think they even pay four of five dollars per tourist and really the Caribbean —including Cuba, but they are even more needy than us-- has great possibilities for tourism...>>

That was Fidel himself (howbeit translated)--NOT a letter to the editor.

[Mika]

44. The key is this..

Look, we had a few cruise ships here when they were European cruise lines, now all these lines have been absorbed by big companies from the United States.

As I said before, it is US law that prevents those US cruise ships from porting in Cuba, not Cuba. I have personally seen cruise ships anchored and ported in Cuba.




As for your hostile remark about me being "a Fidel Castro admirer": If you pay attention to the Cuba threads where I post you'll notice a consistant theme in my posts. That theme is that Castro is not the doer of the good things nor the bad things in Cuba - it is the Cuban people via their elected government representatives.

I don't go for the usual..

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

.. that so many participate in. Good or bad.

[Judi Lynn]

45. That's the closest some of the right-wing visitors and pre-revolutionary

Cubans or their off-spring feel they can come without crossing over the line, and red-baiting. They fully want to call you a "communist," and call me a "communist," too, since we believe these countries have the right to chart their own courses WITHOUT any U.S. meddling and bullying.

They realize that the U.S. went through a dark, ugly period in history with Joe McCarthy and company, and a lot of Americans get really steamed at that kind of dirty, underhanded method of dealing with people with whom they disagree. It's childish, and meant to be destructive.

They mean to undercut your reputation, your right to express your beliefs. It's not all in good fun, never was. It's taking cheapshots, fighting dirty. I've seen it on Cuba threads since "Elián," and it looks dirty and dishonest every time.

I admire your composure, Mika. Anyone who takes the time to simply THINK these things over, and to read can see what you said is very easy to understand, for chrissakes. No big mystery there! It seems harder to NOT get the picture.

Spain travel company Pullmantur launches Holiday Dream cruise ship to Cuba



Holiday Dream

www.DTcuba.com

The company Pullmantur, the oldest tour operator in Spain, started up operations in Cuba with the cruise ship Holyday Dream.

Executives from the Pullmantur Cruises division said that Cuba has become a sort of main port for a voyage that begins in the city of Cienfuegos.

The voyages includes a stop on Isla de la Juventud (Isle of Youth), where travelers can enjoy a day at the beach, and ends in Havana, where they stay more than 24 hours.

The Holiday Dream, which is 200 meters long, 50 meters high and weighs 39,000 tons, can accommodate 1,047 passengers and is likely to be insufficient to meet the growing demand for that offer in the future.
(snip)
The company, which started up cruise operations four years ago and already owns five ships, plans to carry more than 160,000 passengers in 2005.
(snip/)

http://havanajournal.com/travel_comments/A2740_0_6_0_M/



European cruise ship in Habana harbor

Cruise ship Princess Danae docks in Santiago de Cuba


DTcuba.com

The cruise ship Princess Danae, carrying 500 passengers, docked in the port of Santiago de Cuba, in the eastern part of the island, during the second half of December.

Santiago de Cuba was chosen as a port of call during the cruise ship's Caribbean voyage, due to the city's historic, cultural, patrimonial and tourist attractions.

The boat was welcomed with folkloric dances and the catchy rhythm of Los Hoyos conga, which is characterized by unique beats and dances.

During the ship's stopover, more than 300 passengers enjoyed excursions to the Santa Ifigenia Cemetery, Céspedes Park, the Cuban Historic Ambience Museum, and the Pepe Sánchez Trova House.

Other optional excursions included the Baconao-Gran Piedra Park and the town of El Cobre, which holds the Sanctuary of the Lady of Charity and one of oldest copper mines in the Americas.
(snip/)

http://havanajournal.com/travel_comments/A2814_0_6_0_M/



Only in Cuba. Havana and our cruise ship in the background

November, 2004
http://travellingjd.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_travellingjd_archive.html

Cruise Ship Season Kicks off in Eastern Cuba
Santiago de Cuba, Oct 25 (AIN) The arrival of the cruise ship Astor in Santiago de Cuba harbor marks the beginning of a new tourist season, which will include another seven visits up to April 2005.

This is the first time the cruise ship Astor has visited this Cuban destination and it has 343 vacationers on board, mostly Germans. Its Caribbean tour also includes Havana as its next stop over.

More than 70% of the visitors have booked excursions to the Cuban beaches, including those in the famous Baconao Park. Also included are tours of Santiago de Cuba city, where vacationers will be attracted by the local architecture and patrimony, as well as visiting other tourist centers, such as the La Gran Piedra mountain, which houses the remnants of French-Haitian coffee farms that date back to the 18th century. The Astro cruise ship started its Caribbean tour from the Dominican Republic, last October 21 and will return to Europe on November 12. The ship belongs to Germany’s 50-year-old Transocean Tour company, which organizes tours around the world, including two annual Caribbean trips. Cubanacan travel agency, belonging to the Cubanacan Hotel Group, acted as host to the cruise ship arrival in eastern Santiago de Cuba.
(snip/...)

http://www.ain.cu/english/oct2504edingles.htm

ETC., ETC.

The two official Classic International Cruises postcards below of Funchal, released late 2000, show the extended accommodation aft more clearly, and the revised funnel colours carried at this time. Funchal was operating on a charter from Cuba at this time.

[Vogon_Glory]

46. I'll Let Other DU Readers Check The Sources THEMSELVES

I'll let other DU readers check the links I posted THEMSELVES. Truth and unpleasant facts have a way of getting out despite efforts to the contrary, as the incumbent regime at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is also finding out.

[Mika]

49. Your link and Judi lynn's confirm what I have repeatedly said..

.. and that is that Castro doesn't rule Cuba.



I agree with you. DUers should read your link AND Judi's multiple links.


Your link quotes Mr Castro as saying that cruise lines aren't wanted in Cuba (by him).

Judi's links show that cruise ships do indeed operate in Cuba.


If Mr Castro is the iron fisted dictator that the Cubaphobes claim that he is then there would be no cruise ships operating in Cuba. But.. there are. I have seen them with my own eyes.

[malaise]

47. If cruise ships

are making all the money while they dump their toilets in our waters and fill up with our water (at dirt cheap costs), why are you linking them to development.
The cruise ship industry is a nickels and dimes business for all but their greedy owners.

Fidel is correct. That said he knew which cruise ships he was talking about because European cruise ships visit Cuba. You should read some of the environmenalists and economists forecasts re damage to our vulnerable islands as others destroy our coasts and steal our water. Put simply, while tourist industry zealots only see money, others who do the work and think see nothing but long term damage.

Edit -sp.

[blindpig]

48. What's so bad about that?

All that he said about cruise ships is true. They do take away from the local economies and pollute. If Cuba wishes to limit their presence in Cuban water more power. If the limiting factor is to deny opportunity to entities of a nation working hammer and tong to destroy your country is only right.

Spending a week with a gaggle of tourist engaged in nonstop gluttony and gambling is certainly not my idea of a good time. When I travel I want to see the country, how the people live, get a feel for the flora, fauna and history. To stay in an insulated bourgeoisie cocoon is so lame, might as well go to Hilton Head.

[Mika]

50. In Cuba cruise lines operate on Cuba's terms NOT their own.

Corporations do not rule Cuba nor write their laws. The Cuban National Assembly creates and passes laws in Cuba according to the will of their electorate. That includes environmental laws, tax laws, as well as the cruise ship operational laws. If the corporate cruise industry wants to operate in Cuba they must do so on the terms that the Cuban government sets.

This goes for all businesses in Cuba.

[blindpig]

51. good. n/t

[Bacchus39]

57. many islands already charge tourists who disembark from the ships

and the cruise ships pay berthing fees. this way the islands get some of the money from the tourists.

[Mika]

59. In Cuba the cruise lines build the docks w/their own money..

.. and Cuba claims at least 51% ownership. Same with the tourist hotels and resorts. That is the way foreign biz is done in Cuba - on Cuba's terms. Cuba is the majority owner of all these ventures.

This the business model that the US corporate vultures want to do away with. They want the same exploitative business model that they operate under in the US.

[Bacchus39]

61. hmmm...interesting other islands governments build the piers

in the hopes cruise ships will come.

European hoteliers have a large presence in Cuba. many Europeans and Canadiens already go there.

[Mika]

64. Yep. Taxpayer cost & risk/corporate profits.

This is the corporate government model the vultures want to install in Cuba.

[blindpig]

68. Doubt it makes the difference

in hotel rooms and restaurants. Much less the losses of marine life and reefs.

[MarsThe Cat]

53. I'd LOVE a Carribean destination with NO cruiseships.

i've never been on a cruise, and have no intentions of ever going on one. my wife and i like to dive, and we like going to one island- and spending our time(and money) exploring, diving, and relaxing.

[Mika]

54. If you like diving you'd love Cuba

I'm not advising you to break US laws banning American travel to Cuba.

I've been diving in Cuba in the past (on legal marine biology ed exchange programs) and I can tell you that there is no more beautiful place for diving. The clearest warm water. Cuba's coral reefs are well protected and virtually unspoiled. Millions of people from around the world have experienced them (except kept-in-the-dark travel banned Americans).

[MarsThe Cat]

67. Part of the reason they may be so pristine-

is that American divers haven't had the opportunity to spoil them.

[formerrepuke]

10. Varadero Beach will become like Cancun...wet t-shirt contests, drunk-off

-their ass college kids, a Hard-Rock Cafe, and acres and acres of parking lots to accommodate all the rental cars visiting the "Shoppes at Varadero Outlet Mall." (Pardon my cynicism)

[htuttle]

11. I find it rather funny...

...that the Cuban mobsters in Miami assume that Cuba will suddenly reject socialism the moment Castro dies.

Boy, are they going to be disappointed...

[Mika]

12. Not only Miami Cuban mobsters..

.. it seems that there's plenty of DUers who think the same thing.

They'll be disappointed too, I guess. :shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

13. I can't imagine that a successor with the same ideals hasn't already

been groomed to replace Castro?
That would only make sense. :shrug:

[Ben Ceremos]

23. Cuba is socialist

but that does not mean it isn't democratic. It just isn't capitalist "democracy". The Cubans will maintain and modify the system as opposed to letting it dissolve. Cubans are a highly educated people and the "dumb" americans that think they will be welcomed with "flowers and parades" will be quite shocked to discover that they will have to wait in line and get their business plans approved by the central government whether Fidel is in charge or not. I just wish the press would stop building up their expectations. We Cubans are a proud people and we won't be letting nearly 50 years of struggle be flushed down the toilet just to accommodate a horde of greedy Republican types. Count on it.

Venceremos! Viva la revolucion! Viva el Che!

[guajira]

14. htuttle, I Hope You're right! Problem is...

the US gov't. is already planning to send $$$ to Cuba to "democratize" the country. Sort of a Plan Colombia, I guess!

*******************
Here are some of the details of Colin Powell's Commission to Assistance for a Free Cuba:

According to the report last year, not long after Castro's demise, 100,000 tons of food could be purchased quickly and shipped to Cuba.

U.S. charities would be encouraged to create and contribute to a foundation to aid a "Free Cuba." American government officials would carry out a "hands-on needs assessment" as soon as possible. There are detailed plans for upgrading Cuba's health and education system.

The 400-plus page report discusses ways to modernize Cuba's aviation, railroad and maritime infrastructure. It envisions U.S. assistance in holding free and fair elections, fighting corruption and establishing independent trade unions.

Wayne Smith, a Cuba expert and former U.S. diplomat who long has advocated establishing normal U.S. relations with Cuba, said he is outraged by the administration's plan. It is "blatant intervention in the internal affairs of another state," Smith said.

"They talk about how we are going to oversee and facilitate the transition. Who gives us that right?" Smith asked.

The president of Cuba's National Assembly, Ricardo Alarcon, likens the U.S. plan to an annexation or occupation of Cuba. He says the U.S. would regard Cuba "as a piece of land administered by the U.S."
more...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051001/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_cuba:puke:

[Mika]

15. More like Plan Haiti.

In addition to the current funding of Cuban "dissident" movements, the US is funding Cubanexile terra groups right now.

Kinda like they did for Haiti, except that the Cuban government has been busting up the groups that have been aiding and abeting the avowed enemy terror supporters (the US gov & Miamicubano foundations funded by US tax dollars) against the sovereign Cuban system of government.

[rog]

18. ... plans for upgrading Cuba's health and education system.

"There are detailed plans for upgrading Cuba's health and education system."

Doesn't Cuba already have near 100% literacy and a health care system that much of the world views as a model? I think if you're a male in Cuba, you can expect to live several years longer than in the US. Their infant mortality is significantly lower, too.

.rog.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Well, seeing as they ain't allowed to vote...

...what they accept or reject will be of little consequence to whoever succeeds Castro.

[htuttle]

19. I think you need to learn more about Cuba

[sadiesworld]

20. Tut, tut.

Apparently, we'll be helping them out with free and fair elections (not to mention fighting corruption and establishing independent trade unions). :rofl:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. Get back to me...

...when PCC wins less than 95% of the vote in an election.

[Mika]

55. You should learn about Cuba before spouting nonsense

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

When I saw the 1997-98 election season in Cuba less than 20% of the elected candidates were communist party members.



You could learn a lot about Cuba's political systems from this book..
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Bacchus39]

60. what other parties in Cuba are there besides the Communist Party?

n/t

[Mika]

63. Here's a few, but there's more

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Also some info on this long old DU thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70

[Bacchus39]

65. I ask because of this

which says the communist party is the only legal party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Cuba

[Mika]

69. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source

Commiephobes & Cubaphobes contribute to Wikipedia also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

Wikipedia is a free-content encyclopedia, written collaboratively by people from all around the world. The site is a wiki, which means that anyone can edit articles simply by clicking on the edit this page link.

I don't rely on Wikipedia because, many times, here on DU its public posted info has been debunked.



I've seen an entire election season in Cuba and I know that commie party membership IS NOT required nor the dominant party of the elected bodies. In Cuba ANYONE can run for office as long as they can get nominated in the OPEN nomination process - which is not run by any party. There is massive public participation in the secret ballot nomination proceedings.

[Bacchus39]

70. and oddly the Communist Party is the only one that wins

correct???

[Mika]

74. No. Not correct.

Elections in Cuba are not run according to party affiliations. Parties DO NOT nominate candidates. Candidates are elected based on their platforms not party affiliation. Under 20% of Cubans are commie party members. Under 20% of Cubans elected to the municipal, provincial and national assemblies are commie party members.

[Bacchus39]

75. and which party controls always??

my guess is the one led by Fidel Castro.

[Mika]

80. Don't be so Muddled. You keep asking questions that have been answered.

Why not read the posts and links instead of insisting on things that you obviously know little about?

[Bacchus39]

71. you are being deceiving. those are parties in exile!!!

http://www.cubaliberal.org/aboutus/010101-whereweare.htm

[Mika]

76. No they aren't.

Just because they have party offices in foreign countries doesn't mean that they aren't in Cuba.

Some of these party offices operating in "exile", particularly in Miami, are set up to undermine and discredit the native operating party. Cubans in Cuba take a dim view of foreign operating parties, so, setting up an office in "exile" by anti Castro groups is a tactic used to undermine and discredit the legitimate party operations in Cuba (because the "exiles" falsely claim that there are no legitimate elections in Cuba). Even Oswaldo Paya and Elizardo Sanchez (heads of their own domestic Cuban political parties) agree that this is a tactic used by so called "exile" groups to undermine the legitimate operations of political parties in Cuba that want to make changes in Cuba by internal Cuban political means. They both denounce these methodologies and foreign based "Cuban political parties".

[Bacchus39]

77. what better way to retain power than to not allow

parties to nominate candidates. therefore there can be no real organized opposition to the controlling authority.

sorry, I just don't have a favorite dictator.

[Mika]

78. What better way to retain power than secret back room nominations..

.. by parties to nominate candidates. Therefore there can be no real organized opposition by the public to the controlling authority. The public is all but shut out by the party, and by lack of financial means.


That's how we got two wealthy bonesmen - Bush and Kerry.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Are you speaking of Black voters in Ohio and Florida?

When it comes to elections, Cuba has the US beat in democratic elections. Stop watching Faux News or reading the corporate press.

[MisterP]

41. the people won't but Havana might--we've all seen what's going

on in Haiti since the 10s

[awoke_in_2003]

16. you know it is funny

but this country "that doesn't care about their people" has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. Hmmm, maybe they at least manage to look after their less fortunate.

[damntexdem]

22. I hope a post-Castro government will itself var Pino and his like.

They will if they care about their people.

[Vogon_Glory]

26. The Right-Wing Exiles Are In For Disappointment

The right-wing Cuban exiles who plan to invest in Cuba after Fidel are in for some disappointment. I've no doubt that many of them would be scrutinized by a post-Fidel government to see how much support they gave to the travel bans and embargo legislation as well as to such pols as Ros-Lehtinen and Diaz-Balart brothers.

I also don't doubt that many Canadian, European, and Mexican firms who invested in Cuba during the 1990s and afterwards will remain ahead of any US-based Johnnies-Come-Latelies. The Europeans and the Canadians will have had the better part of fifteen years to make friends and contacts with the Cuban government while the Exile-right's remaining pre-1959 familial connections will have frayed by time and deaths from old age. I also don't doubt that the Cuban government will remember who kicked them when they were down.

Unlike the hard-core Marxist-Leninist Castro apologists, I don't doubt that post-Fidel Castro's Cuba will be a mixed economy. There will be honored places for some of the exiled business community--but only for those who not only invest in their businesses, but who will also give and give generously to help upgrade Cuba's frayed infrastructure and architectural heritage.

[Judi Lynn]

28. Execs have eyes on Cuba

Posted on Thu, Oct. 13, 2005

Execs have eyes on Cuba

A survey shows many executives plan to do business in a post-Castro Cuba. Media consultant Jose Cancela wants to buy into Cuban media.

BY DOUGLAS HANKS III
[e-mail]

Jose Cancela wants to turn Cuba's state-run media into a profit-making enterprise.The Miami-based Hispanic media consultant said he has lined up about $1 billion in pledges from potential investors to buy into Cuban television and radio markets once Fidel Castro leaves power and a democratic government takes over.

''We believe it is an area that will develop very quickly,'' Cancela, president of Hispanic USA, told an audience gathered in Coral Gables to hear the results on a new poll about South Florida investment in a post-Castro Cuba.

The survey, commissioned by South Florida CEO magazine, found most business executives in the area planned to invest in a democratic Cuba. Almost 65 percent of the 417 executives polled said they were likely to do business in a post-Castro Cuba, a consensus the poll's architect said was particularly noteworthy since most of the respondents were non-Hispanic.
(snip)

The poll found some trepidation about the island of 11 million people just 87 miles from Key West coming into its own economically. Of those polled, 72 percent industry would be ''negatively impacted'' by a democratic Cuba, and 32 percent thought real estate would be hurt too, and 22 percent said local agriculture would suffer.

Still, 61 percent of those surveyed thought a democratic Cuba would impact their industry positively; only 11 percent thought it would hurt their own business.
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12887418.htm
(Free registration required)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of many photos of Havana taken by satellite. These images have been passed around in Florida for years. I believe some of them were commissioned by Cuban "exile" businessmen, from what have I heard.

http://www.redtailcanyon.com/items/21983.aspx?imageId=71654

[LynnTheDem]

29. Maybe the US can round up all Cubans in Cuba ("terrorists")

to get them out of the way for the execs and their flash hotels and such.

Hey, it's the American Way.

[K-W]

30. Pipe dreams and propaganda.

I would guess that unless they are forced to, the Cuban people will not be anxious to follow the neo-liberal model.

[CottonBear]

31. How the hell are they sure that the next Cuban leader will let them in

to rape and pillage this beautiful island?

[Missy M]

32. How will Cuba automatically have a "democratic government"..

when Castro dies. Isn't it up to the Cuban people, 'actually living in Cuba' to decide. Or does this group of people in South Florida already have the coup planned. They sound like a bunch of ghouls to me ready to split up the spoils.

[mirandaod]

33. I really want to visit Cuba

before there are McDonald's all over the place. I hope they survive the onslaught of globalization.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Check this out!

You can access cultural & news stories, but this is not the website of a pathetic, isolated country:

www.cubaweb.cu/

Most countries in the world do business with Cuba. The country is not waiting to be "rebuilt" by returning Cuban "exiles."

Don't click on the vacation deals, though. It's too depressing when you remember that we are not allowed to go.

[mirandaod]

36. We live in the Netherlands

and lots of our friends have been to Cuba, some several times. They all love it. I'm so jealous.

[SoCalDem]

35. The media takeover is always FIRST..Gotta propadandize

right away to 'set the message', and block out any opposing views.. Then they can be just like the USA:puke:

[cosmicdot]

37. I'd say the vultures began circling c.1998

under the guise of "humanitarian" reasons ...

http://www.ahtc.org/ whose Advisory Council includes:

Carla Hills ... in 2000, as a Smirk Pioneer, she pledged to raise $100,000; Ford's Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development (no relevant experience); from 1974-75, she was Assistant Attorney General, Civil Division, U.S. Department of Justice; Poppy Bu$h's US Trade Representative; serves on the Board of Directors on such companies as Maurice Greenberg's (Chair of the Nixon Center) American International Group aka AIG, currently under investigation by Eliot Spitzer; is or has been Director of Time Warner Inc., ChevronTexaco Corporation, Lucent Technologies Inc.; Vice Chair of the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations, the U.S.-China Business Council, and the Inter-American Dialogue; Trustee of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Institute of International Economics; Member of the Board of the Asia Society; and a Member of the Trilateral Commission; in the 1980s a Chevron oil tanker was named after her (sound familiar?); and, "CEO" of her own "international consultant" company, etc.

Other AHTC Advisors (including the Carlyle Group):

G. Allen Andreas
Chairman and CEO
Archer Daniels Midland Company

Phil Baum, Executive Director
American Jewish Congress

Lloyd M. Bentsen, Jr. (also involved with James Baker, Kissinger,etc. on the Caspian Sea Oil Basin
US-Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce http://www.usacc.org
Former Treasury Secretary, President Clinton Former U.S. Senator, Texas

Reginald K. Brack, Jr.
Chairman Emeritus, Time Inc.

Melinda Bush
Hospitality Resources Worldwide

Dr. Joan Brown Campbell
Director of Religion, Chautauqua Institution
Former General Secretary, National Council of Churches

Frank C. Carlucci
Chairman, The Carlyle Group
Former NSC Chief, President Reagan

A.W. Clausen
Chairman and CEO (retired), BankAmerica Corporation,
Former President World Bank

Francis Ford Coppola
Producer / Director

Dr. Robert Edgar, General Secretary, National Council of Churches of Christ of the USA

Richard E. Feinberg
Director, APEC Study Center University of California, San Diego Former NSC Chief for Latin America, President Clinton

Craig L. Fuller
Former Chief of Staff, Vice President Bush

Sam M. Gibbons
Former 34-year Florida Congressman,
Chairman, Ways and Means Committee


Larry Gold, PhD
Chairman and CEO
SomaLogic, Inc.

Mark O. Hatfield
Former U.S. Senator, Oregon

Grazell Howard
Coalition of 100 Black Women

Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick,
Stated Clerk Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)

Bob Odom Commissioner
Louisiana Department of Agriculture

George Sturgis Pillsbury
Chairman, Sargent Management Company

A.J. Pete Reixach, Director
Port of Freeport, Texas, Former President, Gulf Coast Ports Association

Julius B. Richmond, M.D.
Professor of Health Policy
Harvard Medical School Former U.S. Surgeon General

Dennis Rivera, President
1199, National Health & Human Service Employees Union

David Rockefeller, Chairman
Rockefeller Center Properties, Inc. Trust

Governor Mark Sanford
South Carolina (R)

James Rodney Schlesinger
Senior Advisor Lehman Brothers
Former CIA Director, President Nixon
Defense Secretary, President Ford

Kurt L. Schmoke, Former Mayor Baltimore, Maryland

General John J. Sheehan (retired)
Former Supreme Allied
Commander, Atlantic (NATO)

Sargent Shriver, Chairman of the Board Special Olympics International

Oliver Stone
Producer / Director

Paul A. Volcker, Former Chairman
Federal Reserve Board

Malcolm Wallop
Former U.S. Senator, Wyoming

John Whitehead, Chairman
Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Former Deputy Secretary of State

Jim Winkler
General Secretary
United Methodist Church, General Board of Church and Society

[PittPoliSci]

38. what makes them think Cubans want them? n/t

[ckramer]

39. After Castro, Cuba probably will go the way China did:

Absolute Political and government control plus loose capitalism.

I think that in this way it will probably be better off than a chaotic democracy and rampant capitalism combined.

[cassiepriam]

40. Have you noticed? EVERYTHING is a money moment for the US.

[yellowcanine]

62. "a country that doesn't care about their people" . Hmm. Didn't Cuba offer

to send doctors to New Orleans? And they have sent doctors to Haiti?
And they can do this because they have more doctors per capita than most countries, including the U.S. Doesn't sound like a country that doesn't care about its people.

[Catchawave]

73. Baltimore Sun article about the Embargo (from 2000)

From Common Dreams: http://www.commondreams.org/views/030500-101.htm



<snip>

The biggest loser in the economic warfare the United States is waging against Cuba are the U.S. businesses that are missing out on this country's modest, but steady economic growth.

Since 1990, Canadian, Mexican, Italian, Spanish, French and Dutch companies have invested nearly $2 billion in joint ventures with the Cuban government. They're overhauling the country's telephone system, building hotels and exploring for offshore oil.

Last year, the head of the American Farm Bureau said U.S. agricultural sales would jump from $500 million to $2 billion annually if the embargo were lifted. Three months later, Illinois Gov. George Ryan visited Cuba and discovered an "opportunity for a great market" for farmers in his state.

But instead of making deals, Mr. Ryan had to go home empty-handed -- thanks to a four-decade-old embargo that doesn't work.

When Congress passed a bill in 1992 that tightened the embargo in the wake of Cuba's loss of Soviet aid, New Jersey Sen. Robert Torricelli, the law's author, said the measure would "shorten the suffering of the Cuban people by isolating Castro and forcing him out."

It didn't.

When Congress passed the Helms-Burton Act -- a law that further tightened the embargo's noose and foolishly sought to penalize foreign companies that do business with Cuba -- Dan Burton proclaimed that the bill "is the last nail" in Mr. Castro's coffin.

It wasn't.

<snip>

[anotherdrew]

79. fuck these anti-castro dicks. Castro CAREs about his people more than bush

The only people who go to jail there are criminals or people trying to destroy the country. Any country imprisons traitors and collaborators.

[TygrBright]

85. Huh... Deja vu and all that...

>>U.S. vultures can't wait to turn Cuba into a hell-hole like Miami.<<

Cuba WAS a hell-hole, like Miami and worse, before the Revolution. Whythehell does anyone think they even HAD a revolution?

The Battista gov't was circle-jerking with the Mob and the big US sugar corporations, to the point where the country was basically one big private playground for criminals and corporate hyenas. The Cubans who enabled this did pretty darn well for themselves.

Came the Revolution, they went to Miami, so it's hardly a big mystery or surprise that they brought the hell-hole with them. Now they want to take it back home again.

In the intervening 50 years, Cubans have become literate, learned what it's like to live with regular health care, etc.

The question is, have they forgotten what it was like in the bad old days, yet? Is the hunger to "get rich" and live in a consumer wonderland sufficient to overcome their common sense?

Basically, are they smarter than Americans?

I'd like to hope so (the nearly 100% literacy rate is some justification for optimism,) but on the whole, I'm betting human nature will win out. IOW, let the "private enterprise" vultures in, and there goes clean air, clean water, health care, literacy, sustainable life in general.

forebodingly,
Bright

[Mika]

86. 2 links to back up your statements.

:hi:

I really do hope that you're wrong about your perspective on "human nature" and Cuba. The Cubans, and the rest of the world, can look at America and see that there is a melt down occurring - on all fronts that you have pointed out. The US will be a shining example of what not to do.


Anyway, here's a couple of links for ya..



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.