Dutch unveil the toughest face in Europe with a ban on the burka

[emad]

Times
From Anthony Browne in Brussels



http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,235470,00.jpg
The 'time of cosy tea-drinking' with Muslims is over, says the minister who would ban the burka (ROBERT VOS/EPA)



THE Netherlands is likely to become the first country in Europe to ban the burka, under government proposals that would bring in some of the toughest curbs on Muslim clothing in the world.

The country’s hardline Integration Minister, Rita Verdonk, known as the Iron Lady for her series of tough anti-immigration measures, told Parliament that she was going to investigate where and when the burka should be banned. The burka, traditional clothing in some Islamic societies, covers a woman’s face and body, leaving only a strip of gauze for the eyes.

Mrs Verdonk gave warning that the “time of cosy tea-drinking” with Muslim groups had passed and that natives and immigrants should have the courage to be critical of each other. She recently cancelled a meeting with Muslim leaders who refused to shake her hand because she was a woman.

The proposals are likely to win the support of Parliament because of the expected backing by right-wing parties. But they have caused outrage among Muslim and human rights groups, who say that the Government is pandering to the far Right.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html

[emad]

1. Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi has often said that the

compulsory veiling of women is a male Shi'ite tradition with no theological validity whatsoever...

[Orrin_73]

3. As a muslim I completely agree

[emad]

16. I'm a great fan of Dutch muslim MP Ayan Hirsi Ali.

She puts those whacky wahabist nutters firmly in their place - even at great personal risk to her life and sanity.

[Charles19]

54. Yep it is a Persian creation

However people have the right to wear whatever they want as long as it is modest and making them not wear something is just as bad as making them wear it.

[Rich Hunt]

76. you are exactly right

NO government has the right to tell women how to dress (or how to undress).

I don't care how 'oppressive' you think the dress is.

That's a profoundly illiberal notion.

It's also insulting to Muslim people.

[hogwyld]

93. It will be a moot point in 30 years

The Demographics of Europe will dictate the this law will be overturned. Here's an interesting link:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GH23Aa01.html

[TrueAmerican]

2. Good for the Dutch

It's wrong to treat women as third class citizens no matter what their religion is.

[Verve]

4. I'm all for freedom of dress, yet when dress is used to repress women

that's another story!

[Orrin_73]

5. I live in holland until now I have only seen

two women in Burka.

[tx_dem41]

15. I wes in Amsterdam recently and saw nothing close to a burkha in..

10 days of visiting. Do you think the motivation of this law then is purely symbolic to appear tough?

[Coventina]

This is an issue that I am really conflicted about.

I'm all for freedom of choice, even the choice to be wrong.

But how many women who wear the Burka do it from "choice"?

And plus, if Muslims refuse to shake a gov't minister's hand because she's a woman.....well.....that doesn't win them any points in my opinion.

[Gormy Cuss]

14. I have the same question about 'choice' here

Women who are raised to think this is natural may find it difficult to shed the veil. It may be their choice because they are comfortable with this ritual. In a way, it's no different from elderly American women who think only men should wear pants. In an earlier era that was the norm.

I am uncomfortable with an outright ban but the government could address the choice issue, especially if there is no theological basis for this attire.

[Tight_rope]

6. Can't say that I blame her....I mean with terrorism and all...

You never know who's underneath all that black fabric. Could be a he or a she and much more. It's not like their clothing is tight fitting and you can see all the curves.

[MsConduct]

18. My thoughts exactly! n/t

[Rich Hunt]

77. you are both correct

You simply can't trust people who cover themselves up that way.

Better still, let's force them to be naked. That makes good blackmail material.

[MsConduct]

113. LOL That would defeat the purpose of them showing their faces.

No one would be looking at their faces!;)

[Parche]

7. Burka

Would this law also apply to Delta Burka if she visited the Netherlands?

[seriousstan]

9. No, but your joke would be covered by the ADA because it is soooo lame.

[Benhurst]

17. ...

:spank:

:rofl:

[LatinoSocialist]

8. i'm adding my support to this

I hate that I'm allying myself with the Dutch Far Right on this, but the Burkha, as has been noted many times here on DU, has no validity whatsoever in Islam. It's simply a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran. If we were to interpret the Bible's restrictions on women in a similarly restrictive fashion, we'd have women protesting on American streets. But, because it's Islam, we're supposed to let it pass?

This is about one of the only good "lines" that can be drawn on the issue of Islam, women's rights, and civil society in the West. Surely we can agree that women shouldn't be covered up cattle in Western societies.

[seriousstan]

12. I also think the whole "not shaking her hand because she is a woman" is

nothing but sexist bullshit. Crawl out of the cave and into at least the 1800's. Nobody is talking about dry humping some tart you meet behind the pub. Shaking the hand of a national dignitary is simple protocol.

[PassingFair]

86. I'm with you on the handshaking thing.

Cancelling the meeting took guts. Protocol! It's not just for men anymore! In Holland, they should do as the Hollanders do.

Burkas should be allowed though, in my opinion.

[bemildred]

10. How can you dictate dress in a free society? nt

[hughee99]

19. Amen...

Despite my personal opinions of the burka, it is NOT the place of government in any free society to pick someone's wardrobe. Separation of church and state goes both ways.

[anotherdrew]

27. tell that to american school kids, constantly monitored for their clothes

[hughee99]

30. Not a big fan of that either. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

32. There's an excellent reason for dress codes in schools.

I would imagine you're not a teacher or a parent. Or have not read up on how school dress codes impact LEARNING and behavior at school. That's the reason many schools have enacted school uniforms.

[anotherdrew]

38. actually, I'm in favor of uniforms for schools, not just dress codes

my point was that freedoms can and are limited by "free" societies all the time. Sometimes it's bad but often it's for the best. Not always easy to tell the difference, but it's true. My freedom to drive though a red light is limited too.

[Zynx]

42. I never used to be in favor of school uniforms, but I am now.

I think that fashion does have a general impact on the learning environment at a school.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

55. Especially since educators and administrators are often

dismiss a kid's intelligence and potential with one look at their clothes.

I agree that uniforms are a good idea. I'm just sorry that the human condition makes them necessary.

[MarsThe Cat]

109. not to mention the social environment...

i am a STRONG proponent of school uniforms.

BUT- i don't have kids, so i express my opinion on the matter all that much.

[SoCalDem]

117. Uniforms are the intelligent thing to do

School should be about learning..not fashion
Removing the burden of clothing teens would be a good thing for most families..

Kids have no problem with uniforms if it's for something they WANT to do.. athletes wear uniforms, firefighters wear uniforms, pilots wear uniforms, even the UPS guy wears a uniform..

A school would have a more centralized identity if kids wore uniforms, and parents would save a ton of money..

Studies show that kids do better in schools when they wear uniforms too..

And it really doesn't have to be THAT "uniformy".. Black/blue pants/skirt..white/tan/light blue shirt..leather loafers...

What's so hard about that??

[smirkymonkey]

33. How can you allow others to dictate thier warped religious bullshit

on the citizens of a free society. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If they want to live in a repressive theocracy, then they can move to countries that support it.

I am tired of hearing about RADICAL muslims moving to the last bastions of progressiveness and freedom in the western world and insisting that their primitive world view be imposed upon the masses.

[bemildred]

37. Indeed, screw ANYONE who would dictate another's manner of dress. nt

[High Plains]

47. It's the Dutch government insisting its world view be imposed upon

the Muslim masses.

[patdem]

56. Well, then..don't move there...it is very simple! Sorry.I too am

conflicted, but women who have not rights at the homefront..are now given rights by the state! Sort of like VOTING rights..the RIGHT to walk amoung their fellow citizens without being ashamed? I don't know...Too many taboos ..too little time!

[smirkymonkey]

73. Why is it so wrong for the host culture to insist that immigrants

respect their laws and customs - especially when most of these people are living off the dole or have been given opportunities that they would have never had in their countries of origin?

If a bunch of Dutch people started moving in droves to Islamic countries and insisted upon ignoring the rules and norms of the dominant culture, a lot of people here would be outraged by such a thing.

It's not like the Dutch are saying they can't practice their religion, just that the anti-social elements of Islamic culture are not going to be tolerated in Holland's free, progressive society.

t's the Islamofascist creep into liberal western countries that have most people worried. I have spoken with a number of Scandinavian friends on this issue and they feel the same way. Their formerly peaceful societies have been plagued by crime and religious ignorance.

[hughee99]

79. Speak English dammit...

Why do we have to do anything "multilingual" in the US. We need to insist that immigrants respect our laws and culture. Part of our culture is the English (or what passes for it these days) language. It's not like we should be saying they can't still enjoy the hispanic culture, just that the anti-social elements are not going to be tolerated in our free society.

[hogwyld]

110. Tsk Tsk

SM, your are being WAY too reasonable in your arguments! Don't worry, you and I are on the short lists for assimilation when the theocrats come and take over!

[smirkymonkey]

114. Thank god there is another person on this board who actually

reads the posts rather than scanning and attacking according to thier preconcieved notions of what is being said due to certain buzzwords.

To me, religious fanatics are no different than right-wing zealots - they are all trying to limit the personal freedoms of the masses while attempting to reserve special rights for themselves.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Looks like they're fighting the symptom rather than the cause

Couldn't that be done in a "fight spousal/parental abuse" kind of fashion? Like, throwing the book at anyone FORCING girls and women into degrading situations?

[bemildred]

78. I agree that enforcing the women's rights directly is better.

If you really want women to have options, make sure they have
a place to sleep and enough food for their kids and protection,
if they leave their pet bully.

[NashVegas]

90. What Can The Dutch Gov Do? Compulsory Deprogramming?

What other answer is there?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. I like #78's idea.

Offer shelter if needed. Also, DO enforce existing laws. Abuse -> jail. (Or at least a restraining order)

[hogwyld]

111. Yeah, BUT

They (the Dutch)will end up having their own laws used against them. The wife beaters will claim religious discrimination by saying it's allowed by their "good book" The next thing you know, they will have their own set of sharia laws.

[SoCalDem]

50. "Free society" is the problem

People move to areas to be "free", and to have the opportunities offered in those places, BUT if they "import" their own cultural restrictions, they are never going to "become" true-citizens of the place they reside..

The customs that people observe IN THEIR HOMES are entirely up to them, but when they enter the "public" spaces, it's not unreasonable to expect them to adapt to the norm.

The women are the ones here who are bearing the brunt of BOTH sides.. They must enter into the public arena to conduct their daily lives and yet they are totally dominated by the men in their families who are trying to hold them to the "old ways"..

If the moves to places other than the already-Muslin areas, are for the individuals involved, it's not unreasonable to expect the immigrants to adapt to the customs of their "new place"..BUT is all the movement part of a larger plan to overwhelm and undermine Europe?

Islam is a long-ignored religion, and until the Muslims began moving to western areas, probably no one cared one way or the other. Times have changed, and there are probably lots of westerners who cannot see why anyone would even want to be a Muslim, so new arrivals are automatically suspected. When they insist on "being different" it's preceived as a deliberate attempt to NOT assimilate. In most of Europe newcomers DO receive services and aid , and lots of longtime residents and citizens get upset at having their country offering assistance to people who seem in no hurry to blend in..

To those people, it's a daily affront to them to know that people who came there uninvited,readily accept aid, send their kids to schools free, take jobs, and refuse to toss off their old ways..

.

[smirkymonkey]

82. Well put.

Some people here have a hard time understanding that.

[flygal]

105. Because if they want to live in a free society

they should require an entire sex to not be free. They can have freedom of religion and expression up to the point it becomes a repressive symbol and possibly interferes with safety of others - ie terrorism.

[2Design]

11. good for them - women deserve better treatment and part of

that is being allowed to be out in public and to show their face - the male chavenistic societies need to go away - that is why I love the character donald sutherland plays on commander in chief - he epotimizes that attitude and it is more representative in one party over the other

and in the usa supporting - dictators while ousting democractically elected leaders

[Bridget Burke]

13. Her motives are more anti-immigrant than pro-feminist.

The article points out that only a dozen women in the Netherlands wear burkha; they would NOT leave the house without it, thus missing acculturation. Baroness Sarah Ludford MEP, on the European Parliaments Civil Liberties Committee, said out that stop & search laws can be used against any suspected terrorist.

The second page of the article details examples of the Netherlands' move to the right. Immigrants are not the only targets:

Increase in sentences for a range of crimes, and introduction of zero tolerance”policing to cities such as Rotterdam.

Tightening of rules on cannabis-selling coffee-shops and zero-tolerance approach to infringements. About half the coffee shops in Amsterdam have closed.

[belle]

25. Yeah. The "cosy tea-drinking" comment is creepy, too.

Seems to me that if you're concerned about the women then the solution is to make it safer and easier for them to leave oppressive situations (more shelters, more education, more outreach...including "tea-drinking"). I tend to doubt that many would choose to wear something as cumbersome as the burka even if they more do choose to wear more symbolic gestures like headscarves, but what do I know? Some people like to wear corsets 24 hours a day or load themselves with so many piercings they look like the Tin Woodman...

anyway, it might just mean that the husbands of women who were only "allowed" out in public wearing the burqa will just shut them up in the house completely. who does that help?

[DemExpat]

28. No more "cosy tea drinking" is an expression in Dutch meaning

it is time to get down to business.

A saying used in lots of circumstances, and pretty misleading here having been literally translated in this article.

:-)

DemEx

[belle]

64. Oh, I see. Thanks!

[Demeter]

20. I would think there were other, more important barriers

for example: education and voter inclusion.

[pennylane100]

21. I hate to agree with anyone on the right, but,

I do agree with this. Burkas have no place in western society.
While dress codes should usually be voluntary, often families pressure women into wearing these ridiculous outfits and that is wrong.

I am a reasonable progressive, live and let live kind of person. However, when I see a woman walking down the street with her face and head covered, I hate it. I know people say that is is usually voluntary (see statement above), and is part of their religious beliefs but I still do not like to see it. The whole idea behind it is that men would be distracted by the sight of a womens face and hair. A better solution would be to provide the poor distracted men with shutters, similar to what horses wear to keep the looking straight ahead. Then all talk of distraction would soon end.

[Runcible Spoon]

72. do breast implants?

I am uncomfortable chastising a culture for repressing their women when it occurs so often in our own. :evilfrown:

[Verve]

96. LOL! Yes, provide shutters for the men so they won't become distracted by

women. :rofl:

[hogwyld]

112. I've got one idea

How about making all of the men wear the Burkas, but without the eye holes? They won't be able to see anything, thus be distracted, and will need the women to take them anywhere. How long do you think THAT would last?

[DemExpat]

22. This was sparked by the city of Utrecht a few days ago

wanting to ban the face covering Burka for women with social security benefits who have the duty to apply for jobs. Seems to be based on a case of 2 young women - able-bodied, educated and Dutch speaking - who refuse to have job interviews without a burka. So the city of Utrecht wants to penalize them.

The law states that those receiving benefits must seek/apply for jobs, and do nothing to inhibit this process. Not many companies/institutions here would be interested in someone wearing a burka.

DemEx

[sadiesworld]

24. I would think the answer would be to deny benefits

not ban burkas.

[notadmblnd]

23. I saw a person in a burka in my town the other day

I was driving through Pontiac Michigan and on a corner a christian curch was having a garage sale. Hijab is pretty common around here as we have a large muslim population, but when I saw the burka, I did a double take. I remember, thinking... it's getting close to halloween but why is someone dressed like the grim reaper on the church lawn? thats when I took the second look and realized it was a burka.

No, I don't think people should be able to wear them.. who knows what or who is hiding under them?

[mainegreen]

26. I don't blame the Dutch on this one.

Nederland is full, and, quite frankly some of the immigrant groups are nothing but trouble. My Oma had to move out of her block because of the Morrocans. The Dutch have been welcoming and kind enough. Its time for some of these groups to get their shit together, get their heads out of their 13th century arses, and get with the program: violence and repression are NOT ok dammit! And its not because their muslim. The turks cause no problems what so ever (or at least have about the same amount of trouble makers as any other group, Dutch included). Its cultural, and its rubbish that all cultures are ok. Some are very not so ok indeed.

Good for Rita!

[progressivebydesign]

31. My friend in Belgium says they are having the same issues.

Coming from my friend, whom I know to not be racist or anti-immigrant, has discussed with me how badly the dramatic influx of people from Morroco and other areas have impacted their areas. It's an issue of watching their culture being strangled by people coming to Belgium with no apparent intention of respecting what was there before, and instead creating Morroco (or wherever they are from) in their new country. I don't think the Belgians or the Dutch are trying to be racist, but they are simply stressed to the max over the sudden changes in their countries. The cultures that a clashing couldn't be more different. Sounds like the leaders did not plan well for the influx or the assimilation of the immigrants. Change is not easy...

[mainer]

41. The murder of filmmaker Van Gogh was the last straw

The Dutch have been the most welcoming and liberal people in the world. But the murder of Theo Van Gogh, and the death fatwa against that crusading Muslim woman politican have opened Dutch eyes to the fact the Netherlands is fighting for its liberal life. Radical muslims there are pushing to institute sharia law and overturn Dutch laws that have long granted women and gays their rights.

that said, the burka law does seem like a minor distraction.

[DemExpat]

104. Something must be done - if not too late already.

Amsterdam used to be the most welcoming city for gays - no more - because of increasing aggression against them in public - by groups of Muslim youths.

It really upsets me seeing this destruction of liberal values and open society taking place before our eyes.

:cry:

DemEx

[alkaline9]

29. i cannot agree with this legislation...

...whats next forcing people not to wear baseball caps and sunglasses?

Seriously, I understand that the burka has been a major symbol of oppression in the Islamic world, but to not allow a free citizen to dress as they wish (in certainly a non-harmful way) is just wrong. I mean it's not like the person is wearing a jacket with knives protruding.... or barb wire ... or anything harmful... and the fact that its a religiously related outfit only strengthens the point that it should be tolerated.

How can those who have no exposure to Islamic culture have any legal power to tell someone they can't display their religious symbolism? If this law succeeds, then I hope the next law is to prevent people from displaying crucifixes (spelling?). Not to pick on the Christians, but its the point being made by the law.

[KDLarsen]

34. This law is no good

.. as it has been said time & time again, this is going to hurt the women who are being forced to wear to the burka, to stay at home. You don't actually think that if this law is enforced, that these womens husband/family/social circle are going to give them carte blanche to go out in the public without cover?

[KittyWampus]

35. Great Wedge Issue For The Far Right. Can't Believe Some DU'ers

don't recognize it.

[NorthernSpy]

36. we ourselves have laws that require the kluxers to unmask in public

And the kluxers naturally consider that an infringement of their right to free expression. I think that they have plenty of freedom of expression as it is, and that public safety is rather more important than anybody's desire to troll the streets in a bedsheet.

I don't insist that the situation in the Netherlands is entirely analogous to that, but I also don't dismiss out of hand the need of the Dutch to defend the peace of their society.

[High Plains]

52. How does forbidding women who want to wear a burka do that?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. "You DO want to wear your burqa, don't you, dear?"

Says the psycho while petting his baseball bat.

"Of course, my husband." Says the wife who has no desire to be killed or maimed.

[smirkymonkey]

115. That's it in a nutshell - many of these women wouldn't even know

what choice is because they have been dictated to and controlled by their religious nutjob fathers and husbands their entire lives.

[alkaline9]

40. if we all agreed on everything, why bother discussion?

I understand being "united" behind our "cause"... but to go without the discussion on the issue is not healthy either. Maybe some people feel one way but can recognize the justifications for the other side.

In my opinion these debates are healthy to grow our knowledge of the topics and (surprisingly) there hasn't been too much flaming on the issue yet in this thread... which points out to me that this isn't an easy issue... and that we are doing the right thing by showing respect for our fellow DUers opinions.

I am pretty divided on this issue myself, and its hard to land on one side... but that's why its even more healthy to have the discussion.

[WinkyDink]

39. As much as I abominate radical Islam,

for the Dutch, who allow half-naked prostitutes to sit in window-fronts and stupefied drug-addicts to loll in their parks, to ban the burka from public streets is a notion I can't get behind.
What of winter coats and scarves?
Etc.
But in schools? Yes, I would agree with the ban.
But alas, it is yet another example of Empire biting the European in the arse.

[Zynx]

43. I agree with your statement.

In schools, I support the idea of dress codes and uniforms, but in public people should be allowed to wear whatever they want so long as it is not nothing. ;-)

[billbuckhead]

45. The Dutch were good enough to take these immigrants in

Maybe they should send them to your neighborhood.

[High Plains]

48. ooh, scary threat n/t

[WinkyDink]

51. Ahem.

I would imagine that many Muslims are from lands ruled as colonies by the Dutch (Surinam, Indonesia). Admittedly, there are now Turks, Moroccans, and Algerians (didn't like France? LOL!).
The Dutch welcomed the Puritans, before Plymouth Rock, and they took in Jews expelled from Iberia.
So the admixture of conquest and welcome has produced the current state of affairs.

[Kailassa]

60. ROFL

You should take a trip to Holland and see how much more civilized the people there are than the Americans the dutch meet when they visit America. Don't fall for the hype, they can live with progressive laws because it is a small, old, civilized country where few people want to go overboard anyway. As a quick peek at crime and pregnancy statistics will indicate.

[Endangered Specie]

46. I can certainly see why the Dutch would go with this.

This is, after all, why they rejected the EU constitution, because I think it would take control of their immigration policy out of their hands, and there are alot of Dutch people who want to see either an end to or tightening of immigration, it is a pretty small country after all, and any sovergn nation has the right to close its borders to whomever it seems fit

[WinkyDink]

53. The topic isn't immigration per se; it's burkas.

But I would also agree that any nation has the right to decide who may or may not live there, if not foreign-born. Close the borders! Refuse entry even to Americans! I don't care.
It's just that THIS issue of banning an item of CLOTHING seems off-base, because it is not evenly applied.
France, OTOH, now bans ALL ostentatious displays of religion from its public schools. Aimed at Muslim girls, of course, but at least also applied to wearing Crucifixes and Stars of David (etc.).

[demo dutch]

49. As an expat - That's a pretty radical step for the Dutch! only a matter of

time, the country has lost its patience with the muslim population

[hiabrill]

57. What will the Dutch achieve by banning the Burka?

I'm curious........

Let's see who it affects.

A maximum of say 100 Muslim women will be forbidden to cover their faces in Public. (hurrahh... n/t) Hence they will stay indoors more often, be it their own choice or their husbands and families.

Not exactly progressive.....

I believe this law is just testing the water as the Dutch Government moves toward more stringent laws targeting immigrant Muslims.


They are purely banning a symbol, which represents oppression and nothing more. Allowing the Burka wouldn't have harmed anyone in my opinion... but after Van Gogh it's understandable and definitely more politically motivated.

[riderinthestorm]

59. The local community college near me has become a magnet for Muslims.

There are more than just 1 or 2 women in burkha here. And this is a fairly prosperous midwest town.

Personally, the outfit is pretty disturbing for me. I'm not sure why but it just looks and feels like a "cult" outfit. I see them and can't understand how any woman could/would allow themselves to be so brainwashed into wearing such garments. (I get the same feeling when I see a car decked out in W support stickers so maybe I'm the wierd one!)

Socially, I see other problems: 2 examples from this school (I use this library to check out books weekly)....
1. The burkha clad women won't go to a male librarian to check out their books. They will stand aside when the male librarian calls for the next person to check out rather than have to hand him their books.

2. Same thing with assistance at the reference table. If the man is waiting to serve someone, they won't use him.

This just seems wrong on so many levels in a society that values egalitarianism. I know the US falls short in many areas, but gender equality has always been a noble cause and something we as a society seem to be continuously striving towards (rightly so). The sort of shunning of the opposite sex as dictated by this sort of outfit (hijab) is just wrong in my opinion and works to set our efforts back.

Dutch society is so much more evolved along the gender equality scale, that this type of behavior would really be offensive.

[hiabrill]

65. The Burka is one thing and Hijab another..

Burka covers the face and Hijab the hair....


Prohibiting the Hijab is beyond extreme.... We'd also have to stop Nuns from wearing a scarf, Jews from wearing a Snood & Kippot....

Mind you these are all signs of "modesty"... not extremism as some falsely believe.

Where does it stop..?

I guess next are the Payot Harosh (Jewish side-burn) and the beards of both Jews and Muslims. After that we'd need to end the Amish black clothes and beard...

I'd rather be tolerant than intolerant, because differences between peoples customs and traditions around the world is vast.

[riderinthestorm]

68. I'd rather be tolerant than intolerant also.

I'd rather be tolerant than intolerant also but this article (and comments by people actually in Holland) are pointing to other issues such as fraud (to avoid having to actually find work and just get on the dole) and male domination/female control.

I'd remind you that "modesty" for other cultures has included chastity belts, FGM, and witch burnings. Sometimes cultural traditions and customs NEED to be challenged and discussed.

I don't have any problems with the Dutch scrutinizing this. From my perspective there are some issues here that could use some examination.

By the way, thanks for the information re: burka vs. hijab. I was under the impression that "hijab" encompassed more than just the outfit but also the manners and mores of being covered (like not shaking hands with a man).

[hiabrill]

81. Shaking hands is another issue altogether

I've asked about hand shakes and this is what I understand.... Take Catholics for example, priest and nuns abstained from getting married. In the past Nuns lived in monasteries never interacting with men.....


Celibacy was the Catholics way of "living a life in constant worship"..... All Muslims can marry and they consider themselves an extension of Judaism and Christianity.... http://www.jbuff.com/c010804.htm">NOTE: Muslims are entirely indebted to us "Jews" for their religious clothes and in fact their scriptures and their food laws and everything else they have. This doesn't’t prevent them from preaching hate and throwing bombs.


Muslims have a different method of "living a life in constant worship"..... they pray 5 times a day every day of the year. To pray Muslims MUST first wash themselves; they first wash their genital parts (front and behind) with water, after that their hands, face, arms, head, ears and feet.... (3 times each) Muslims call this "ABLUTION"

If a Muslim man or woman were to touch the other sex, they would have to wash themselves AGAIN before performing their prayers. Many Muslims stay in a constant state of "ABLUTION".

Many Muslims also carry their Bible or Koran. A Muslim cannot touch the Koran unless they are in a state of "ABLUTION".

That is one of the main reasons men and woman avoid touching the opposite sex hands. It has absolutely nothing to do with being sexist..!! I too thought it did, until it was explained to me.



Question: Should we tolerate their way of life?

[riderinthestorm]

83. So because they have to wash their hands again....

...that means they can't shake hands with someone?

Shouldn't they have to tolerate our way of life??

Whose really being the "intolerant" one here?

[hiabrill]

92. not only their hands....

....practically their whole body....


I find Muslims will never compromise on their religion, period... As once happened in Holland as well, probably with this same Integration Minister, Rita Verdonk (or was it someone else). An Official Iranian delegation first refused to shake the hand of a female Minister and then later refused to attend a host dinner which included alcohol. The Iranians didn't compromise and couldn't care less. A very intolerable position .... But it leaves the question, should one tolerate a different ways of life and also compromise on their belief?

If I choose to only eat Kosher food, it isn't imposing on anyone other than my self, unless you're forced to cater for me. Then what? Do you refuse or agree?



Intolerance to a persons chosen way of life can lead to extremism ...... There has to be a compromise on all side and a balance which is only possible by looking deeply into the true issues at hand on both sides.

[riderinthestorm]

99. We're getting off topic

One last comment on the hand-shaking thing... in my opinion, so what if they have to wash their whole body again? I guess I'm not seeing the big deal on this. If they are that pious, then I would guess they are washing their whole body every single time anyway. If they aren't shaking hands with us unpure folks, they are definitely touching other unpure items which would compel them to wash themselves entirely again anyway.... Your argument makes no sense to me.

Our discussion is basically a microcosm of the issue at hand - to what degree Muslims MUST compromise in order to successfully INTEGRATE into their new country.

We shake hands. We require a person's face to be shown for a drivers license. We want to be able to see people when they are applying for a job.

Your comment that Muslims "never compromise on their religion" basically proves this woman's (and the Dutch in general's) point. If the Muslims don't want to integrate, and couldn't care less if they are offending the Dutch natives, than why are they in Holland? It seems rude and intolerant on their part, not the Dutch. I think that is the crux of the matter.

Your analogy to your kosher food is fallacious by the way. Your need to eat kosher food won't prohibit you from getting a job and keeping you on the taxpayer dole.

[hiabrill]

101. It's still on topic....

quote:
"She recently cancelled a meeting with Muslim leaders who refused to shake her hand because she was a woman."
end quote


The analogy to kosher food is not intended to be fallacious and it isn't.............. If there is no kosher food, should I starve to hold on to my belief? I'm assuming you can either provide it or not, at your whim. What do you do? Am I being intolerant for not eating what others eat, by requesting kosher food?


The big deal probably lies in where will they find the time & place to wash them selves. 5 times is a lot in my opinion, any more than that would be too much.

And it's not a question of touching "unpure folks", you've obviously completely missed the point. If a Muslim man touches the hand of a Muslim woman (outside of his family) he cannot say his prayers until he washes him self.

It isn't necessarily an issue of microcosm as you've stated. It's a question of being and remaining in a state of purity mentally and physically to perform their prayers.

That's why I gave the argument of Catholics choosing "celibacy" as a means to remain in constant worship, Muslims do it differently by washing before they pray and mind you that includes not touching their private part or having sex.


Muslims obviously do integrate, but not in areas that compromise on their religion. It's a question of how far they should compromise.

Should we rid them of their "religion of hate & terror" (as Bush would like us to believe) to better integrate with natives ....... That's maybe the only solution....

[riderinthestorm]

108. Why are you so worried that the Dutch govt ensures Muslims

stay pure?

Jewish law does not state that a person should starve if there isn't access to kosher food. If it's a choice between life or death then a person is required to eat even if the food is not kosher. Even this atheist knows that. And Catholics that practice celibacy don't have to apply for jobs where their garb would definitely, deliberately, keep them from getting that job and ensure they stayed on the dole.

I agree the question at hand is how far religious folks need to compromise to integrate into the Dutch culture keeping in mind security and fraud issues.

But in a secular society, ensuring that someone can remain in a mental and physical state of religious "purity" is not the government's job. They can make reasonable compromises but a ban on wearing burka to a job interview doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

[hiabrill]

125. We agree on a ban on Burka to interviews....

But not on the tolerance of a State towards a religion.

A compromise can only be reach with more dialouge. There is always a middle ground that all sides can accept.

There are defined boundaries in both a Secular Society and Religions that should not be compromised. Anything else goes.

[smirkymonkey]

88. I agree - I understand the sentiment behind it - progressive,

secular societies are being threatened and overwhelmed by their growing Radical Muslim population and are at a loss with how to deal with it. Therefore, they ban the Burka.

Thatin itself is not going to change things much, but it may set the stage for further changes. It seems more symbolic than anything.

[Kailassa]

58. Just showed this to a friend in Holland.

He says that the problem is that muslim women are wearing the burka when they go for job interviews in the knowlege that this makes them unlikely to gain employment, and this legislation is to stop people getting the dole if they present for job interviews in a burka.

[Megahurtz]

61. Ha ha!

Now I get the "no more time for cosy teadrinking" thing!

:rofl:

[jean]

70. ah, that is a very clear explanation - thank you.

[currents]

62. Next they're going to outlaw slavery!

Those bastards!

[Boredtodeath]

63. To all of you who agree with this woman

What next? Women wearing pants? Women who cut their hair short? Bikinis? Spaghetti strap shirts? Blouses which show cleavage? How about clothes with corporate logos on them?

Come on people - THINK. In a free society, we are all supposed to be free to wear whatever the hell we want. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean you have a right to dictate to others.

Don't like a burka? Simple. Don't. Wear. One.

[Kailassa]

69. The "slippery-slope" argument again.

That argument can be used against all sorts of things, as we all too well know.

Thirty years ago I had to wear a dress, not a pant-suit, to job interviews or lose the dole. That regulation did not lead to the banning of anything, it was merely going along with the well known prejudices of employers in Austraila at that time. Within a few years that prejudice had gone, and the rule went along with it. Being stubborn, I exercised my rights, went to a job interview in a pant-suit and got the job anyway.

The Dutch government should not have to pay the dole to people who insist on wearing something that makes them unlikely to be employed. I'm sure you would not feel entitled to ask for the dole because you didn't get a job after going for interviews in a bikini.

BTW, always take stories from other countries with a grain of salt, often what is actually happening is rather different to what is reported in English news services.

[Verve]

97. Most people on this post would agree with you IF the women wearing burkas

were choosing their attire due to their own Free will. However, most of these women do not have a choice, lest they be beaten, or have acid thrown in their faces for not "choosing" to wear burkas.

This is the difficulty of this situation. Can you really force Free Will on individuals by, ironically, limiting their choices? It's hard to say? :shrug:

[darkism]

66. How the hell did this hate-mongering battleax get power in HOLLAND anyway?

I mean, if you think the burka is oppressive, fine.

But "cosy tea-drinking?" She's being condescending and extremely intolerant to women who choose to dress this way - and that is their choice.

All it is is pandering to the far right, just like the article says. I wonder what the far right is like in the Netherlands, anyway.

[Kailassa]

71. I guess there are too many posts here for you to read them.

As DemExpat explains in post 28.

No more "cosy tea drinking" is an expression in Dutch meaning
it is time to get down to business.

A saying used in lots of circumstances, and pretty misleading here having been literally translated in this article.

The far right in the Netherlands, btw, are far to the left of the Republicans here.

[Mairead]

67. Until *ALL* public display of religiosity is banned, militant fanatics

will continue to demand that women be third-class citizens, slightly higher-class than animals but not really as valuable.

Face it: these are not people who are preserving folk-dances or practicing some other cultural thing as a way of feeling connected to their ancestral homeland. These are LUNATICS who firmly believe that a Big Beard In The Sky has vouchsafed to them the Knowledge of the One, True Way, and has licenced them to make sure that everyone else toes that same mark or suffers whatever consequences these loonies choose to dream up. It's not secularists who commit 'honor' killings, prevent girls from escaping their burning school, or force girls to submit to genital mutilation.

A secular, pluralistic society should not tolerate any of that even for a moment. Public religiosity should be treated like public masturbation--initially a minor civil offence with overtones of psychiatric difficulty, with the stakes rising for each repeat.

It's the only way to stop this shit.

[MisterP]

74. Here comes the "Van Gogh-Corsi Horror Picture Show"

[hogwyld]

75. Just another case of Islamophobia

She's just a hatemongering witch out for some notoriety. She doesn't understand the culture of Islam, so she's trying to force the "Dutchification" of Muslims. Oh well, let her have her fun, in a generation or 2, Islam will rule Europe anyway.

[NorthernSpy]

80. oh, brother...

She's just a hatemongering witch out for some notoriety. She doesn't understand the culture of Islam, so she's trying to force the "Dutchification" of Muslims.

Don't immigrants have any duty to cooperate with the society that took them in?

Oh well, let her have her fun, in a generation or 2, Islam will rule Europe anyway.

I sincerely hope not.

[hiabrill]

84. How far should they cooperate....

.... where is the threshold and limit..?


Should they be a total submission of immigrants to all customs and traditions in their new society?


As far as I'm concerned no one should be permitted to wear a Burka to an interview..!! It beats the purpose of having an interview in the first place.

[hughee99]

85. As much as conforming (to some degree) is not a bad idea...

In a free society they do not have any duty to conform to the norms of the state, other than to abide by the laws. That's what being free is all about. To single out one particular style of dress is discriminatory, to broaden the scope it is an attack on everyone's freedom.

[Kailassa]

87. To repeat myself from post 58,

The problem is that muslim women are wearing the burka when they go for job interviews in the knowlege that this makes them unlikely to gain employment, and this legislation is to stop people getting the dole if they present for job interviews in a burka.

The burka is not being banned, this is just an exageration. But there are going to be consequences for those who use it as a way of staying on the dole.

[hughee99]

102. From the article itself...

"The ban is likely to be enforced in shops, public buildings, cinemas, train and bus stations and airports, as well as on trains and buses. "

What does being at such places have to do with a job interview or gaining employment? I agree that when you go to a public place, or seek employment, it's best to follow the local customs, but I don't see where the government has a right to mandate dress code. Having a nose ring is usually not to someone's advantage in job interviews either, but I saw no effort to ban them.

"Attention has turned to the burka because police authorities have become concerned that a terrorist could use one for concealment."

I didn't see anything in the article relating to the burka and government assistance. I haven't talked to anyone recently who's spent significant time in the Netherlands, so I'm just going off the link from the OP.

[hogwyld]

91. Have you seen the demographics reports?

Whether we want or not, Europeans as a whole, do not have enough children to even replace their populations. Their current birth rates of 1.5 per woman will lead to a large decline in population, while the muslim community is largely growing.

[Darth_Kitten]

123. Yes! And let's not denigrate witches while we are at it. ;)

:)

Not referring to you, Spy. ;)

[NCPatriot]

89. Shouldn't this be looked at in like ways to the ....

confederate flag issue?

The confederate flag, while it does have a place in history, is considered much more as a symbol of oppression to the black community.

The Burka... while it is in a persons own right to wear it or not, it still symbolizes the oppression of the muslim beliefs.

(Or something like that...)

[Verve]

98. Do you believe these women really have a choice as to if they can wear

burkas? They have no choice if they don't want to risk domestic violence.

[Centered]

106. sure they have a choice...

wear it.... or take a beating.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/wife-beating.htm

[Verve]

100. So Rude of me NC Patriot!

I forgot to say Welcome to DU!:party: :toast:

[Darth_Kitten]

124. interesting point.

:thumbsup:

[Ben Ceremos]

103. For your information,

the ban would apply to women on "welfare" who solicit/interview for jobs.The burqa makes employment less likely according to a business poll taken several months back(sorry, no link). It would apply to government workers, and it seems "reasonable" to allow for a dresscode for employees of the state. The ban IS NOT specifically a anti-religious reaction; it is part of a continuing tradition of social control in the Netherlands. We are required to register with the municipality in which we live, we are required to carry identification, we are required to have lighting on our bicycles (fietsen), we are required to pay our taxes and our healthcare premiums... Holland has never been the "loose and free" society it is portrayed to be. The size and population-density make such regulation essential in the eyes of the authorities.

[Orrin_73]

116. Welcome Ben Ceremos, ben je ook een nederlander?

[Ben Ceremos]

118. Orrin_73

Zeker, hoor! Maar van de "foute soort", namelijk allochtoon. Meeste kaaskoppen snappen niet waarom ik ben naar dit "kou kikkerland" geemigreerd, maar als je naar de situatie in de VS kijk, is het makkelijk to begrijpen. Groetjes van de hoofdstad.

[DemExpat]

119. Hoi, lui....

nou, ik ben ook allochtoon - van VS afkomst dan wel met dubbel nationaliteit.

Tot nu toe ben ik zeer dankbaar om hier to mogen leven!

Ik ben ook altijd benieuwd hoeveel Nederlanders er zijn op DU....ik schat een stuk of vijf....zes?

:hi:

DemEx

[Orrin_73]

122. Dag DemExpat

ik had al de vermoeden dat jij ook uit Nederland was.
Groetjes Orrin_73

[Orrin_73]

121. Wat toevallig ik ben ook een allochtoon

Ik ben Turks, ik woon al vanaf 1978 in Nederland.Het is mooi dat er hier meer Nederlanders zijn. Groetjes uit Nijmegen

[tblue37]

107. Good on 'em! (eom)

[Puglover]

120. I like the fact

that she would'nt meet with the assholes who would'nt shake her hand.