Search on for 2 Kids in San Francisco Bay

[bluestateguy]

I'll look forward to the inane arguments from people who want us to "understand" the killer and "rehabilitate" this sick evil bastard.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/19/D8DBH6288.html

Rescuers searched Wednesday night for the bodies of at least two young children who were reportedly tossed into San Francisco Bay near a popular waterfront attraction, authorities said.

A man called 911 at 5:30 p.m. to report that two, and possibly three, children were dropped from a pier into the chilly water, said Fire Chief Joanne Hayes-White. The case was being investigated as a homicide.

The children were believed to be under age 10, said Police Chief Heather Fong.

As darkness fell, a small inflatable Coast Guard boat hugged the waterfront as rescuers with flashlights looked under the pier. Larger Coast Guard and city police boats searched the water with high-powered lights.

[Kenroy]

1. You don't think there's

value in understanding why people do this?

Of course he's sick (if the story is true, I might add - right now it's only a report from a single person) and of course the act could be accurately described as evil...

but what's wrong with trying to understand why people do these things? How can we address the problem if we don't?

[NVMojo]

9. we'd better figure it out ...this is frightening ...

[bluestateguy]

20. Indeed we do need more of a committment to mental health care

I will fully support that.

But bad behavior is bad behavior is bad behavior and people have to be held accountable for stuff like this.

In this case, I'd willing to spare her the death penalty, however.

[kestrel91316]

24. RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!! Those mentally ill mothers need to be

PUNISHED, not treated!!!!

:sarcasm:

Just betting that you have never had a loved one go off the deep end, right? You need to grow up and learn the fine art of sympathy. Hatred of the mentally ill is for the other folks.

[KFC]

33. Murderers should be punished

I don't care how sick she is (if at all). The proper treatment for murdering your children is life in prison.

[kestrel91316]

40. An act of killing by a delusional schizophrenic is NOT MURDER.

It is a symptom of mental illness.

I am all for lengthy HOSPITALIZATION of the mentally ill who kill. Imprisoning them is CRUEL AND INHUMANE. They are not criminals, they are SICK. Like a dog who bites a child when it is in pain, and needs to be helped, not KICKED.

I hope you receive the sympathy in life that you dole out. There IS a Karma Fairy.

[Book Lover]

2. First of all, it appears to be the mother

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/20/BAY.TMP

A woman who said she was hearing voices stripped three small children naked Wednesday and threw them off a San Francisco pier into the bay, authorities said.

<snip>

A witness who had been walking near the pier with his two children called 911 about 5:30 p.m. to report that he had seen the woman throw the children into the bay about 10 feet below, authorities said.

<snip>

"She was blank, just blank," said one of the rescue crew members.

[funflower]

5. And nobody went in after them?

By the the rescue folks could get there it would be way too late.

I would think some able-bodied swimmers could have rescue at least some of the kids. After all, there are piers you could hold on to. You wouldn't have to just tread water until someone could fish you out.

[Pachamama]

8. I'm an experienced swimmer, sail the SF Bay and know the waters well

I would have jumped in just on my motherly impulses and the confidence I have in my swimming abilities (training in Lifesaving many moons ago from College days) and have actually gotten a taste of the SF Bay waters before, but I can tell you that its dangerous and my chances of succumbing to the cold water and hypothermia within minutes is a very serious risk.

My husband has done the "Escape from Alcatraz" race where he has swam from the city edge to Alcatraz and he's a member of the "Polar Bear Club" that swims out in front of the Ghiradelli/Fisherman's Wharf area. But he's crazy and when doing triathlons or swims like the Escape from Alcatraz, he has a special wet suit for the temps.

Before becoming a Stay home mommy, going back to my single days, I would sail on the SF Bay both for pleasure and for races on the Bay. A lot of the boats I raced on would have me "hiked" out on the boat. Sometimes sailors have gone into the Bay and I've witnessed sailors suffering from hypothermia and they have the benefit of floatation devices and race boats or officials scooping them up within minutes.

To expect tourists or the average joe who might not be the greatest swimmer to jump in and risk drowning is not very realistic....And, as beautiful as the SF Bay may be, the water, especially by the piers there, is so murky and you can't see 6 inches in front of you, so you would be diving around blind trying to find those little bodies....

Ugh...this so awful though....I just can't even comprehend the act of doing this to ones children....she would have to be truly mentally ill to do this....

:cry:

[funflower]

10. I'm pretty sure I would have done it based on mother's instincts, too.

I'm a good swimmer, and, while I've spent a good bit of time in the SF area, I'm probably unfamiliar enough with the dangers of the Bay (other than out in the currents) to have stopped. I wouldn't expect just everyone to do that, but I'd bet there are quite a few good swimmers in that area most days.

It sure is sad that no one intervened to prevent this mentally ill mother from becoming so nuts that she did this awful thing. Was she married, or was there other family around?

It reminds me of the Andrea Yates case in Texas. I've always thought her husband was largely to blame for continuing to impregnate her and expect her to care for their ever-growing brood despite her diagnosed mental problems.

The last thing a mentally ill woman needs is several kids, and the last thing those kids need is a mentally ill mother and no one around to protect them from her.

:cry:

[Conservativesux]

13. Water is too fridged in SF Bay for most people to swim for long.

It would more then likely be four people dead, if a good samaritan had jumped in, without fast help nearby to fish them all out.

[CountAllVotes]

3. Bernie Ward just reported now that they have found one of them

for what it might be worth ...

Sad, pathetic and a sign of our times. :(

:kick:

[kestrel91316]

4. First thing I think when I read this sort of thing is:

How long had the paranoid, delusional schizophrenic who did this been off meds?

If this is the mother killing her kids - betcha it's a case of mental illness and a terrible tragedy for everybody. What a shame that we don't do a better job at protecting the mentally ill from themselves (and in doing so, protect others from them)!!!!!!!!

[seriousstan]

6. Early detection and then treatment. Testing and as last resort detention.

Right? Or what is your plan to protect the public and treat the fringe people?

[kestrel91316]

22. My own mother has been one of the "fringe people" for the

past 20 years. We found out after much legal struggle and hearthache that you CANNOT force treatment on anyone. If a mentally ill person does not believe they are ill, and does not want medication to control their symptoms there is not a damned thing anyone can do about it, until and unless they kill or try to kill themselves or someone else.

My mother spent nearly 15 years wandering the country, just a few missteps short of homelessness, and wound up in a homeless shelter once, because it was illegal for us to DO ANYTHING to help her.

Laws need to be changed. It needs to be easier to require treatment of the mentally ill when they get into ANY trouble, rather than only when they have finally harmed someone. My mother got into legal trouble once, in 1985, in Texas, where a judge completely ignored out testimony about her prior diagnosis and let her go with only a recommendation that she see a psychiatrist. Mom lied to the judge and did not seek care, and was essentially lost to us for the next 15 years.

Don't even THINK about getting snotty with me about this, until you have walked a mile in my shoes.

[shanti]

31. sorry to hear about your mother...

gotta add something here re: "If a mentally ill person does not believe they are ill, and does not want medication to control their symptoms there is not a damned thing anyone can do about it, until and unless they kill or try to kill themselves or someone else."

dunno about this one. one of my sons is homeless and mentally ill and has attempted to kill himself. when my ex brought him into the emergency room, my son simply walked out. i'm terribly afraid that he will try this again, but what can be done?? he needs to be in a locked facility. he's been on 72 hour holds before, but they just let him go after the time is up. how do you get someone committed for their own good is the question! my son is also adept at fooling shrinks.

[kestrel91316]

39. There's the problem. Even if they are deemed a threat, all you get

is a 72 hour hold. THERE ARE NO FACILITIES TO COMMIT THEM TO, unless they are imprisoned as criminally insane. This country has utterly failed to help its mentally ill.

[Kenroy]

7. Agreed

this is heartbreaking, but it's clearly mental illness. The original poster's assertion that we shouldn't try to help or even understand this problem is just cruel.

[Conservativesux]

12. Should have been advised to have her tubes tied if she was this mentally.

ill and unable to take care of her children.

No matter what, this is a tradgedy for all concerned.

[kestrel91316]

23. Sorry. You can't force anyone to have their tubes tied, and

menatlly ill people are not know for complying with "advice". We have no community mental health system anymore in the US, nor do we have institutions for long-term care of the mentally ill. We have completely dropped the ball on this one, in large part because people with money want to be able to buy their big SUVs and second homes, and have more tax shelters, and get even richer.

Oh well, at least the gays can't marry!

[pop goes the weasel]

30. I suppose you don't know much about schizophrenia

Schizophrenia usually isn't diagnosed until late teens or early 20s. Her oldest child was 6. She is 23. That means she was pregnant at about the earliest she would have started having symptoms. Apparently, she didn't know she had schizophrenia, nor did anyone else. We still don't know for sure--the way she was acting suggests it, but who knows? Could have been drugs, perhaps. Or a tumor. Life is full of variables. That's why we have this system in which a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. She could be at fault, or she could be the victim of terrible circumstances.

Furthermore, schizophrenia does not usually cause such severe problems unless there are other life stressors. You know, like poverty, homelessness, desertion, being responsible for 3 small children, and racial prejudice. Even people without schizophrenia would have a tough time bearing up under those circumstances.

[1932]

11. Who was the woman in TX whose husband kept making her have kids

who moved the family into a bus and who ignored every sign that his wife was going to have psychotic episode, and then she did have one? Would you call that woman a sick evil bastard? Does anyone believe jail is the right place for her?

And then there's that woman who wanted to run off with her boyfriend, so she put her kids her car, drove into a lake, and then made up a long story about how they were car-jacked. Would anyone NOT calll her sick and evil and argue that she should not go to jail?

Don't you think it's a little to soon to draw conclusions about what end of the spectrum this story falls on?

[LisaL]

14. Oh please! The first woman is Andrea Yates. The second woman

us Susan Smith. But to freaking say that one is clearly mentally ill, while the other one is evil is absolutely ridiculous. Susan Smith had a lot of mental problems as well. So, there is no freaking line that separates an evil person from a mentally ill one. None. And in fact, many in prison suffer from mental problems. So, WTF does it stop? If mental illness is used as an excuse to do whatever the hell person wants, including murder, why should anyone go in prison at all?

[LostinVA]

15. I am not excusing what Susan Smith did

I don't think she was clinically/legally insane like Andrea Yates. However, she had been sexually abused by her RW Fundie stepfather for many years, including well into adulthood, so she sure as hell was f*cked up too, just probably not clinically insane. She may be a sociopath. Or she may have been so damaged by her life that something was triggered in her. Who knows. It's moot now, anyway.

The OP is off base with their assertion, imo. We don't know the woman's story: if she was hearing voices, she's nuts. The odds are good she is part of a submissive, religious relation and was pretty much made to have these poor children. People don't just sudden;ly become schizo overnight -- there are lots of signs. Did NO ONE see this? Relatives, friends, church members, coworkers? It really does take a village to protect and raise children.

[LisaL]

16. Susan clearly was not all there as well. She had tried to

kill herself, her father had actually killed himself, and her step father was molesting her. Yet, Susan is often given as an example of an evil woman who murders her kids, while Andrea Yates is some poor insane woman. What's the difference? I don't know who the original woman is and what is her story, but it boggles the mind how many would excuse what she did without knowing one thing about her.
Maybe she was freaking dragged out of her mind? Or drunk as a skunk? Pissed at her husband? Anybody thinks about that?

[sendero]

18. We generally..

... draw a distinction between people who are so out of it they really don't see what they are doing as "wrong", and those who try to hide what they did.

I agree that Smith is not a paragon of mental health, I'm not so convinced that her illness is serious enough to reduce her culpability.

It's sad that it is a gray scale, but it really cannot work any other way can it?

[kestrel91316]

26. Schizophrenia is, or should be, an ABSOLUTE defense

for murder. A schizophrenic is incapable of differentiating the real world from their fantasies. This is NOT some sort of character flaw. It is a DISEASE. The victim has no control over their disease. Medications can help. But imprisoning schizophrenics is in itself INCREDIBLY EVIL and show COMPLETE IGNORANCE of medical fact.

They truly do not know what they are doing is "wrong". They need our help, not our hatred.

[Coventina]

34. As the grand-daughter of a Schizophrenic, I agree.

These people are as dangerously sick as anyone with cancer.

They need to be hospitalized. But thanks to Reagan, most of them are out on the street, on their own, or wreaking havok in their families.

:hug: kestrel, for all you have been through. I have some knowledge of what it must have been like.

[kestrel91316]

41. Contrary to popular belief, most schizophrenics are not a danger to

others, just themselves. So they live lives of fear and delusion, huddled on the street, no contact with family or friends, easily victimized by TRUE criminals.

I hear the problem even predates Reagan, that the legislatures were defunding the institutions before he shut them. Some rot about the mentally ill having the right to be free of care imposed on them. Yep! Let them have their rights, so they can die alone on the streets. Makes a hell of a lot of sense............

[LisaL]

38. Well, it's not an absolute defense for murder. OH sniper, who is

schizophrenic, plead guilty and went to prison.
:eyes:
And no, just because someone is schizophrenic, doesn't mean they are insane.
As for imprisoning them, I sure don't want them running free and murdering people. Maybe you do.

[Coventina]

42. Nobody wants schizophrenics "running free and murdering people"

they need hospitalization and treatment.

It's the right-wing mentality, exemplified by Reagan, that doesn't want to spend money to keep these people in treatment. That leads to these tragedies.

[Conservativesux]

45. Amen to that ! Treat her in prison. I dont want her killing other people.

Three children is ENOUGH !!!

[1932]

29. Settle down and call a lawyer.

When someone plots and schemes and covers-up, it's unlikely they're going to be declared insane. That was the problem with the Menedez brothers. Crazy people don't clean up the crime scene, destroy the evidence, and come up with complicated schems to avoid getting caught.

Those Menedez brothers no doubt had some psychological trauma (mixed with greed and poor ethics and morals) but if they were sane enought to plot their evasion from justice, they were sane enought to know they shouldnt' have done what they did.

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. Ahhh...I'm starting my day with sobs.

:( How very sad, from so many angles.

[pop goes the weasel]

19. She was homeless

She was homeless, living with the kids in a Salvation Army shelter. Somehow, I don't think she was receiving the best mental health care possible.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_212928.shtml

[Felix Mala]

21. The wingnut blogs are very lightly tip-toeing around this story...

Maybe they don't like it when their extreme, literal, fanatic ideals are taken to their logical conclusions: "...if thy eye offends thee..."

[Burma Jones]

32. I figure the Freeps are looking at the names of the victims

and silently figuring that will be three fewer people they'll have to despise in the future....

[kestrel91316]

27. Yeah! Those prayers to Jeebus are REALLY helpful............

when you have paranoid delusions due to MENTAL ILLNESS.

[Native]

36. On the morning news they interviewed a woman who knew her

....she said the mother was on medication but had recently been "tooken" off them, but she didn't say why.

[ElectroPrincess]

25. I'm totally burned out with "Gross Sensationalism" - even when true ...

Too many average people "get addicted" into watching sick-minded characters like Nancy Grace and Mark Klaus "foam and the mouth" as they emotionally relive their own personal experiences (instead of going into therapy?!?) though other peoples' tragedies each and every night?

These asshole commentators who literally "orgasm" to find horrid and cruel news stories that gives them an excuse to rave and HATE, disgust me to no end.

There must be a special psychiatric diagnosis for people who "get off" every night by listening to the latest murder victim's horrid demise. Even more fun to them when she's blond, pretty and WHITE. But any heinous murder will do because it allows them to spew judgments and seemingly ENDLESS expressions of contempt for the accused. :puke:

[indie_voter]

28. Horrific

Here is another link to the story with a little more detail about the woman and children.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/20/MNG86FB9541.DTL


Whenever I read stories like this I think about my children. I have a 5 and 3 year old. My 5 year old is afraid of the dark and doesn't like to be alone. The thought of those poor babies in the dark waters, all alone makes me sick.

Regardless of the mother's mental state (and she obviously is mentally ill), I can only wonder what the 6 and 3 year old thought as they were being flung to their death.

Most probably that it was somehow their fault.

Then that poor 1 year old, too young to even understand what Mommy was doing, but knowing the terror of free-falling.

:cry:

[EFerrari]

35. That's right.

Treating mental illness is inane. Prevention is inane. Let's just build another jail and bury some more kids -- that's the ticket! :sarcasm:

When did "sick" become paired with "bastard" and what does that expression mean to you, exactly?

[EFerrari]

37. Sorry if I was harsh. Been working this street for years. n/t

[superconnected]

43. She was living in a homeless shelter.

A person with severe mental problems that couldn't afford housing for herself and her kids. I'll bet being homeless didn't help her mental state. Stress usually aggravates problems.

Sad, very very sad.

I don't blame this woman for what she did. She is clearly very ill. I blame law makers for cutting disablity programs. Could she have gotten mental help? Maybe if she could have afforded it herself. I don't believe paying for shrinks and needed drugs, is part of welfare.

[EFerrari]

44. In San Francisco, if you can't afford mental health treatment

the county must pay for it by law.

On the other hand, there seems to be little out reach to people in shelters. I've calls in to the Mayor's office on this issue.

:nuke: