College gender gap widens: 57% are women

[ckramer]

There are more men than women ages 18-24 in the USA — 15 million vs. 14.2 million, according to a Census Bureau estimate last year. But nationally, the male/female ratio on campus today is 43/57, a reversal from the late 1960s and well beyond the nearly even splits of the mid-1970s.

The trends have developed in plain view — not ignored exactly, but typically accompanied by some version of the question: Isn't this a sign of women's progress?

Today, though, the blue-collar jobs that once attracted male high school graduates are drying up. More boys are dropping out of high school and out of college. And as the gender gap widens, concern about the educational aspirations of young men appears to be gaining traction, albeit cautiously.


link


I don't know if this is good or bad. More women having college degree means more women bosses in the real world. Men work for women. Haha!

Less wars? Not sure. Just look at Condi.

[SteppingRazor]

Oh, I dunno about the assumption...

That more women in college means more women bosses. More female white-collar workers, maybe. But the glass ceiling is still very real.

[ckramer]

13. When there are not enough educated male candidates for the boss position

glass ceillings will be broken.

[SteppingRazor]

15. That's the thing. There'll always be enough.

The ratio here is 43/57, not 5/95, after all.

And a halfway qualified man will, in many cases, be promoted before a better-qualified women. Heck, women still aren't paid the same for the same type of work.

And if you don't think a dim-bulb of a man will get futher than a smart woman, both of whom attended graduate school, come from good families, and are well-to-do, I submit to you exhibit A: George W. Bush.

[NewJeffCT]

31. I think it is slowly changing

I graduated college in 1989 and it has definitely changed, though I'm sure it has not changed fast enough for many. It is an evolution, not a revolution.

But, there are definitely more & more mid-level managers that are women, especially when compared to 15-16 years ago. Eventually, some of them will make it to the next level. And, while I don't have statistics with me now, I'm sure you can find evidence that in many Fortune 500 companies, you have more women in mid to senior level management than 15-20 years ago. And, you have more women and minorities on Boards of Directors as well.

And, I'm sure if you check again in another 15-20 years, it will have changed even more.

[Mizmoon]

24. tho my field, library science, is dominated by women

the managers are mostly men.

I think you're right.

[currents]

28. Maybe it's because they take longer to graduate

So they are there longer.

Just a possibility.

[SteppingRazor]

36. Why would it take them longer to graduate? n/t

[Captain Hilts]

52. What percentage are in the fields of nursing or education? nt

[SteppingRazor]

80. Thank you for pointing out...

The exceptions that prove my rule :evilgrin:

[Captain Hilts]

81. I wonder if numbers of women in "non-traditional" fields for women

are increasing and "traditional" fields holding fast.

And, are the numbers of women increasing while men's are staying the same or have the hard numbers actually gone down?

In other words, are women displacing men, or are men less likely to apply in the first place?

[SteppingRazor]

83. All excellent questions....

I can't answer any for sure, of course, but just from personal observation, I think traditionally female professions -- nursing, education, etc. -- seem to be getting more men, just as male-dominated professions are getting more women. However, I think in the case of the female-dominated professions, the change is happening at a much slower rate.

[Captain Hilts]

84. What's the balance in graduate school?

I've read women comprise half of medical students, which is a dramatic change over the past 30 years, but what about law schools, MBA programs and graduate school, in general?

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

91. Men's numbers ARE staying the same.

I read something on this a while back (originally posted in the DU Feminists group I think), that everyone's freaking out that women are starting overall to outnumber men in college. But it's not that the number of men in college has gone down, it's just that more and more women are going.

And my husband works for a university's engineering school...it really doesn't seem like the numbers of women there are increasing. Something like 90% of the women in the engineering school are in biomedical, which is essentially just considered pre-med here.

[AngryAmish]

92. True

What happens certain fields become feminized and no longer attract men. For example, insurance adjusting used to be an all male field. Now most applicants are female.

Also education has not given boys the glory they used to get in school. So they become disinterested.

[Jackpine Radical]

139. I think over half of new med school admissions are female.

Also law school, and I think 70% of newly minted psychologists are female.

As something of an aside, almost all new probation & parole agents in my state now seem to be female.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. It's extremely bad

Not because more young women are going to college, but because more young men are dropping out of the system.

[Igel]

41. Both tend to be true.

It varies by college a bit.

The starkest contrasts are with non-whites. There it's clear that women both enter college at higher rates than men, and graduate at even higher rates.

[notadmblnd]

2. Shhh.. you're going to let "them" in our our secret plan

to take over the world.

[sasquatch]

3. Does this mean I can have a sugar mommy?

:D

[gulfcoastliberal]

4. Damn maybe I should go back to school!

I like that ratio!

[FloridaPat]

5. In the 60'e women went to college to get husbands. It was a forced

percentage by the universities. Now they're going to college for the education. Yes, that's progress.

As for wars - some believe that if women were in position of power, there would be less wars because women don't want their children to go off to war and die. Women are more compassionate and have more empathy. They care about others - look at having to have a career, husband, and children. Times are a changing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Two words.

Margaret Thatcher ;) Per capita women leaders have been just as violent if not more.

[Orangepeel]

27. they have to be twice as mean to not be perceived as weak

not always, but unless they can be described as say, "a pitbull in size 6 shoes," many will think they are soft

[raccoon]

76. Maybe that's why there are so many bullying *itch bosses?

Of course lots of men bosses are bullies too.

Bullying is equal opportunity.

[Giant Robot]

35. Or any Queen of England

Or Indira Gandhi (sp?)

Or the Israeli PM whose name escapes me right now

Sorry women cause just as much violent conflict as men do. They just haven't had as many opportunities to show it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Golda Mair was left leaning but had no choice but to surround herself

with generals due to Israel's politics

[Giant Robot]

57. Thanks for the reminder! n/t

[raccoon]

75. Lynndie England, and what was that other woman's name? nt

[Mist]

11. There are STILL women who go to college to get their "MRS"

They are no longer the majority of women students, but they're still around!

[K-W]

79. Indeed.

Just look for the girls wearing heels to pre-med classes.

[Mist]

105. LOL! "Heels to pre-med" --reminds me of an 8am lecture class

I had one semester. I was one of the women who gulped coffee, jumped into jeans and sweater, combed my hair at stop lights, and took the first 20 mins. of the class to actually wake up completely. There were some women in that class in co-ordinated outfits, fashionable shoes, hair and make-up done to a T. They must have set their alarms for 5am. Well, ya gotta admire the determination!

[JPZenger]

141. Women Studying in the Med School Library

When I was in college, the running joke was about undergrad women who did all their studying in the Med. School Library.

[uniden]

16. I dont see Hillary waving olive branches

do you? And Martha Sterwart still fires people when profits go down.

[AngryAmish]

18. I think that is sexist

[uniden]

21. how so?

man and women vote differently because women are more compassionate and family oriented (health care, child care, social security, less wars etc.). It's a known fact so you should read up

[AngryAmish]

29. Assigning traits of individuals based on gender is sexist

Even if you think the traits are good.

[uniden]

42. so if women vote 65% for one thing

we can't assume anything? are you kidding?

[Captain Hilts]

54. Opinions aren't exactly 'traits'.

Women prefer 'big government' more than men because - at least until recently - are economically more vulnerable, not because they have an innate need to be protected more than men have, for example.

[mondo joe]

112. You just assigned a trait which you assume.

You assume you know the reason why women tend to behave in a certain way.

You might be right, you might be wrong. But it's an assumption.

What can most accurately be said is that women in the US tend to vote in certain ways and men tend to vote in other ways.

[artemisia1]

65. No, they don't want THEIR children to go off to war and die - but many are

perfectly happy to let OTHER'S children die. I used to buy the idea of women as a moderating influence in politics, but no longer. Both sexes have their share of sociopaths.

[bluestateguy]

6. Simple reason for that

More boys are taken out of college eligibility by the time they reach 18 because they are likely to have been through the criminal justice system. Not that that is an automatic disqualifier, but it does tend to mess up your life quite a bit.

[librechik]

26. you beat me to this!

sad but true

[alarcojon]

72. and this is especially stark for men of color.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. It's definitely bad. The last thing you want is a young man uneducated

with no real hope or possibility for his future. As the article states, blue collar jobs are drying up and this will be the end result.

For some reason a young man's gender identity makes it "uncool" to be academic. As a society we are pidgeonholing males into an identity that does not serve nor empower them.

[uniden]

14. I agree

this is not a male vs female thing. Think about it: who wants a husband that does not have a good job? The pool is getting smaller

[ckramer]

17. Or maybe male and female reverse their roles in a family setting

One probably wouldn't mind staying home if his wife was making enough to support the family...

[uniden]

20. hmmm...

it will happen, since options will be limited. It's like musical chairs, someone will be left with nothing and will have to marry "down" ;)

[Mithras61]

22. You'd be surprised...

A large majority of the men in my experience would have a major problem with their wives making more than them. It's a "bring home the bacon" thing and they feel that they are somehow emasculated by their partner making more than them.

I, on the other hand, cheer my wife on. When she gets to the $100K/year mark, I get to stay home and house-husband! :)

[NewJeffCT]

30. I'm the same way

My wife just got a job paying slightly more than me and I'm very happy about that!! Of course, I made a joke that I'd get a new job and accept making $1 per year more than her.

But, the way I look at it, if I have a decent job & my wife makes even more than me, we'll be pretty comfortable.

[badger1080]

45. I'd have a problem

I'll be honest. I don't know why, but i think I would have a problem if my wife made more than me.

Although i don't know, maybe it's just the idea that the man of the house should be the breadwinner. Or maybe its the fact that I feel like I should be making more than Christine, but if I met a girl who was making more than me to begin with I might not have a problem. I think it's more of the former.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. The greater problem is that a college education is getting more

unaffordable for both genders. Who wants a society that is dumber than a box of rocks? (oh yeah...people who want the crux of one's thinking to lie in "you are either with us or against us!)

[ckramer]

33. A lots of women do

As long as he's a handsome man!

Just like men, who cares if your wife's a secretary as long as she has a great body.

When women call the shots in finance, probably the same will be true.

[Marie26]

133. What's interesting is that isn't happening

Even though women are more likely to get a college degree, men still earn more for the same work, and are more likely to reach powerful positions. So I don't think it's that men aren't getting good jobs, it's just that they're getting them often over better-educated women.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. That's what I was going to say, NSMA!

When I taught college, more male than female students acted as if it was uncool to be smart. The female students felt free to follow a lot of different paths, from ditz to intellectual, from husband-hunting sorority sister to radical lesbian existentialist.

The male students seemed to fit into a narrower mold, and it was largely an anti-intellectual, mean-and-dumb mold, with a few shining exceptions.

This "books are for sissies" mentality hsa always existed in American culture, but in former times, young men who felt that way could always find a well-paying job in a factory or the skilled trades.

Those jobs are drying up, but the "brawn, not brains" attitude is still alive, and it's totally dysfunctional in this day and age.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. And the largely right wing anti- elitist, intellectual sound bites only

feed this very sad situation...

[Zynx]

38. That's because modern society is deficient.

We really do need to encourage people to be academic and stop all the current anti-intellectual nonsense that is permeating both our political discourse and our popular culture.

[ckramer]

8. I think that reason for that is that

girls listen to their mommy and do their homeworks, boys don't.

[uniden]

10. that does not translate

more women will drop out of careers to have and raise children so things will still tilt to the males.

[geebensis]

12. The numbers...

I haven't digested all the numbers, but for me it boils down to this:

If more women are choosing to go to college, while the percentage of men who choose to go is about the same -- good for the women.

But if a smaller percentage of men are choosing to go to college, there is a problem. If this is the case it's probably time to apply the same "go to college" effort on boys that has worked so well for girls in the past thirty years.

[daleo]

23. This is true in Canada too

It starts earlier than university - girls generally have higher grades in high school (on average) and are more likely to graduate. Since universities largely use high school grades as the main admission requirement, girls have an advantage.

The relative payoff of getting a university degree has been higher for women than men over the last 20 years or so (in Canada) as well. I don't mean university educated women make more money than men, but that the wages of university educated women have grown more than university educated men over the last two decades. I think that has sent more positive economic signals to women than to men recently.

I don't know if this is the case in the U.S. There are a number of Statistics Canada studies that point in this direction though.

[Lisa]

43. it's even happening in some graduate and professional programmes

McMaster medical school has frequently graduated more female than male doctors, since the 1980s. And in the social sciences and humanities, it's not uncommon now in a department to have the numbers of male and female grad students (especially at Master's level) on par, or favouring the females.

[daleo]

104. There were 20 females and 2 males in a grad Sociology course

I took a few years back, on multivariate statistical methodologies. Some disciplines have certainly become predominantly female, especially a lot of M.A. programs.

[Captain Hilts]

53. Men test better and women perform better. UofT didn't require GREs.

That's how I got into graduate school there. In the US, most schools require the GRE and SAT.

[Lisa]

140. I didn't have to write an entrance exam for either of my grad programmes

I know that some people do anyway (especially if they're thinking of going to school in the States sometime), but as of now, most departments up here don't require that.

[JoFerret]

25. One this this does mean is that it will be easier

for men to get accepted to colleges as they will be interested in equal numbers and the bar for men will be lowered.

[bleedingheart]

48. are you saying that the reason that women are now in college is because

the bar was lowered?

[Psephos]

69. are you saying the reason that men aren't now in college is because...

the bar hasn't been lowered?

[bleedingheart]

73. I have my own ideas on why women outnumber men in college

1. When I attended college 15 year ago, it was still customary for a lot of women to not go to college and either go to trade school or marry. I think that trend has stopped.

2. I think a number of women go back to school after they have either figured out what they want to do or they find that life isn't as easy without an education.


However I do not believe that there are more women because some mythical "bar" was lowered to let women attend.

I resent the idea that someone might imply that women are so "stupid" that they would have to get special attention to enter college.

[raccoon]

77. Another possible reason,

Women who are "single again" are getting more education to hopefully improve their job prospects. They used to have another income to count on, but they don't any more.

[bleedingheart]

78. I agree..

I know of at least three women, mothers at my kid's school, who are attending college to go back for business, computers or nursing.

They are all in their mid 30's...

[Giant Robot]

37. This post leads me to ask the next logical question

What does this mean for the future of our country? Will this lead to more prosperous times and equality for the genders? Or will the disenfranchisement of a gender cause a backlash in unemployment, crime, etc?

My suspicion is that this will be a minor blip on the radar and have little impact on the country overall. Yes there may be a few more seats in Congress or in boardrooms opening up for women, but in reality, too much wealth and power are concentrated in the hands of a few, and it is in their best interest to keep things as they are now.

[umass1993]

39. My Father Did Research on This

He studied boys and reading. In every state that publishes statistics, boys lag behind girls in reading. Moreover, if you take away the top 20% of performers in math, the majority of boys lag behind girls in math as well. The "smart" boys skew the stats.

Since secondary education is mostly populated by women, they have made a women-friendly education system, and left boys behind in the process.

Typically, with boys, there are the "winners" and the "losers." The losers are simply written off.

We simply aren't taking care of a significant number of our children. How anybody can view that as a "good thing" is beyond me. In fact, it strikes me as being a little sick and certainly unDemocratic.

[sandnsea]

46. That is just not true

I've seen those ridiculous studies about how boys are being treated so horribly by the schools. They're ridiculous. The education system is exactly the same as it's always been. The only difference is that girls are applauded for their intellectual efforts now. This means it is no longer the domain of boys only, and the boys can't handle it. So they drop out. The problem is the male ego and the system shouldn't change to shove women out of the picture because of it. Boys are going to have to grow up and learn to be equals with girls on education, and get their testosterone fix somewhere else.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. I suspect that in a different context you'd object to blaming the victim

After 20 years working, I am now the stay-at-home dad to three sons.

They should not be relegated to second-class citizen status because of a desire for gender-based affirmative action.

Women outnumber men in college by almost a 3:2 ratio. Spiteful fantasies notwithstanding, this is not because of male ego.

I enjoy raising my kids, and I'm good at it. I teach them right from wrong, to value and stand up for themselves and to compete diligently - even... no, especially against those who have become convinced by womens' studies class that 57% of the college population is actually a persecuted minority.

The real reasons that women go to college in greater numbers than men are:
1) because families are willing to invest the $ in educating their daughters while young men are expected to fend for themselves. With the cost of college today, this is not realistic.
2) changes in k-12 education leave boys less prepared for college. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_21/b3834001_mz001.htm As a result, they are 33% less likely to get a BA degree.

If my sons are unable to obtain a college education, their college-educated wives had better get used to being the breadwinner. I've worn both hats, and staying home is better.

Be careful what you wish for.

[sandnsea]

59. I have 3 sons and a daughter

I've been watching this up close and personal for 30 years. The girls are motivated to continue their education, the boys are motivated to make money and buy a car and take their place in the man's world. They sneer at education. Nobody is relegating them to second-class status except themselves. And all 3 of my sons would tell you the exact same thing. This is bullshit and I'll be damned if I'll see boys who can't handle competing with girls take away the equality women have fought for.

I just got approved for a home loan, on my own, separate from my husband's income. I was talking to my daughter and told her to remember not to EVER let them go backwards on women's rights. I said it in passing, but I can see I need to take this as seriously as I do birth control pills. I never thought they'd try to take those away either.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. Your post is a perfect example of the importance of fathers.

Your daughter does not enjoy a position of equality, from an educational perspective she enjoys a position of superiority. I find it frankly shocking to talk to someone for whom this situation, (despite the fact that it fails 3/4 of your offspring), is okay.

I consider my role as a parent to not tolerate anything less from each of my children than doing their best and using every day to full advantage. I will never succumb to the cop-out that my children are failing themselves.

I know that each of us have had experiences that influence our opinions. Whatever yours was, you have my honest sympathy.

Please tell me you don't teach.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. You are exactly right, sandnsea

Teen-age boy culture is extremely anti-intellectual. In many schools, particularly schools that treat the jocks as young gods, a teen-age boy who is interested in reading or the arts or math/science and isn't particularly good at sports is going to get beaten up by his peers and called "fag."

I know one European couple who sent their teenage son to school in the Old Country to get him away from that idiotic and poisonous atmosphere.

American culture itself is extremely anti-intellectual. Look at your local newspaper. I bet the sports section has at least a weekly feature on the best high school athletes. Each athlete gets his or her picture in the paper and a flattering little paragraph. Have you EVER seen this kind of treatment of the kids who win the national science fair or star in the school plays or edit the literary magazine? Weekly features with photos?

No, the message from American pop culture and even many parents is that the ideal boy is aggressive, athletic, and uninterested in books and the arts, i.e. perfect cannon fodder.

And the girls look at the slack-jawed, mean, intellectually stunted losers that their male classmates are turning into and think, "I'd better get an education, because I'm going to be supporting myself."

[smirkymonkey]

138. I think you hit on a very important point....

"And the girls look at the slack-jawed, mean, intellectually stunted losers that their male classmates are turning into and think, "I'd better get an education, because I'm going to be supporting myself."

I don't think girls and young women assume that they are going to get married and be supported by a man anymore. Most of them have seen how well that plays out in reality, having experienced the divorce of their parents and (usually) thier mother's decreased standard of living afterward.

They see the horrors of female dependence and it makes them determined to rely only upon themselves.

[Lilith Velkor]

109. Are you implying that having a SAHD is a bad thing?

If so, why?

(SAHD - stay at home dad)

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. Not at all.

You did read the part where I said that I was a stay-at-home-dad, right?

What I do not want, for daughters nor sons, is for people to be forced into housewife/husband role or menial labor due to a lack of educational opportunity.

If one gender graduates from college by a ratio 3:2 over the other, there is a patently obvious problem.

[Lilith Velkor]

120. The gender gap in income is also a problem.

Perhaps the education gap we are seeing is a result of that. IOW, if a woman has to go to college in order to earn as much as a male high school graduate, then more women than men will bother going to college.

As for the SAHD thing, it seemed to me that you were implying that women would find such a arrangement undesirable. (Be careful what you wish for...) Was I mistaken?

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. SAHD

As for the SAHD thing, it seemed to me that you were implying that women would find such a arrangement undesirable. (Be careful what you wish for...) Was I mistaken?

No, you're right about that. In my experience, being a sole breadwinner sucks compared to being a stay-at-home parent - even considering the condescension-bordering-on-ridicule that SAHDs face.

Having more stay-at-home dads is great for dads and (imo) for kids, too - but for moms, not so much.

I've yet to meet a female ironworker, welder or sewage plant operator who gets paid less than a male ironworker, welder or sewage plant operator. The lack of applicants for these jobs (because of their danger and discomfort) is what drives the salaries in these positions up.

[Lilith Velkor]

132. hmmm

>Having more stay-at-home dads is great for dads and (imo) for kids, too - but for moms, not so much.<

What are moms supposed to do, then? Go on welfare?

>I've yet to meet a female ironworker, welder or sewage plant operator who gets paid less than a male ironworker, welder or sewage plant operator. The lack of applicants for these jobs (because of their danger and discomfort) is what drives the salaries in these positions up.<

I don't see what point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to make a point or are you just saying?

Every woman I've met in those jobs has been a single mom and/or a lesbian. I'm just saying.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. What we have here is failure to communicate.

I'm suggesting several things;
1) that being a sole breadwinner is overrated
2) the last three years have taught me that being a stay-at-home parent is more rewarding than being the breadwinner
3) kids benefit from having a stay-at-home parent. For sons, I would argue that they are often (usually?) better served by a stay-at-home dad.
4) If the current situation continues in which women get the lions' share of higher education, it will make economic sense that moms be the primary family breadwinner. Mom's education is the family's primary money-making asset.

The point I understood you to make is that equity demands that women need to dominate higher education because they require this advantage to obtain comparable income.

My counterpoint is that it isn't women that earn less, it's women's traditional occupations that pay less. The reason for this is simple. The bookkeeper position and the sewage treatment plant operators position require comparable skills and knowledge, but the sewage treatment plant job has fewer applicants, for one smelly reason.

Only someone willing to trade a comfortable working environment for more pay would take it. The kind of person who is responsible for the entire family's financial well-being. I.E. the breadwinner.

[Lilith Velkor]

135. Thank you for clarifying

The reason we are not seeing eye to eye on this is probably because of my background; I don't know anybody who can afford to have either parent stay home. The prospect of having Dad stay home and protect the kids instead of sticking them in some sketchy daycare would inspire crazed happydances for the moms I know. And of him doing the chores as well? Hold me, I'm swooning.... That is, of course, if Dad's even around. They tend to disappear without warning, and then ya gotta win the bread anyway.

[superconnected]

55. *applause*

The men want to blame the women, but short of college grants for minorities and womens, it's really the boys decision. Nobody is holding them back.

As far as families more like to pay for college for girls than boys, show me the statistics. My family didn't and none of my friends families treated their daughters better than their sons education wise.

I do know one family that ONLY sent their son to college though. They felt the girls didn't need it since they would get married and be "supported". It was over a decade ago but even then it was like - WHAT?

What we're seeing now is likely truer statistics. There probably aren't less men per captia going but instead MORE women going than there used to be- they realize they will need that education. It's tilting the gender pool. I bet the same per capita of boys (as it always has been) are opting out - maybe even less. Lots of Boys were always opting out. Girls just weren't opting in.

btw, I've met plent of men who believed they were too "smart" to go to highschool and never went to college. Thats a male problem. Nothing too blame women about there.

Unless they have proof otherwise on how boys are being held back, I do not believe them.

[umass1993]

96. What are you talking about?

The Holocaust never happened, if it did the Jews were asking for it?

Nobody is blaming women, it is simply a societal problem that needs to be addressed.

Frankly, I can hardly believe your callousness. If boys can't read as well as girls, "Too Bad!" ? Kinda harsh, don't you think?

[ckramer]

58. And also stop asking girls to give blow job

Oral sex, that is...haha!

[bluestateguy]

66. I know of no boys who drop out of school for those reasons

They drop out because of family hardship, crappy teachers or getting into trouble with the law. The notion that boys drop out of school because they're intimidated by girls doing well in school is hard to take seriously. If dropout-inclined boys are intimidated by intellectual achievers their attitudes towards boys and girls are the same.

[Psephos]

70. That, also, is just not true

The educational system, emphatically, is not exactly the same as it's always been. It's been the toy of every would-be social engineer for decades now, and all the bailing wire and duct tape really shows.

You're entitled to your opinion, but your political theory of male withdrawal suggests you're unaware of a serious divergence in cultural pressures between females and males. Increasingly, males don't go to college because in the male teen subculture it's becoming uncool to value school, education, and delay of gratification. This is a serious sociological problem, but hardly surprising considering how much calumny has been heaped on men in general and young men in particular in recent decades. Why should young men respond to negative messages any differently than, say, African-Americans, or obese people? Raising one group up by tearing another down is a prescription for disaster.

A few observations and much reasoning lead to error;
many observations and a little reasoning lead to truth.
- Alexis Carrel

Peace.

[DemExpat]

85. I agree with your assessment Psephos.

And the same statistics occur here in Western Europe as well.

I have watched both my son and daughter go through their schooling, and despite all of our good efforts to stimulate my son, he has opted out of further education since he always "hated" going to school, while my daughter graduates from University next year.

I also have seen the Dutch system go through enormous changes in the past 10 years - whole systems of curricular structure changed right in the years that my son was in highschool. :-(


A psychiatrist I know with kids says he sees the school system as being very "boy" unfriendly - witness the growing number of unmanageable boys with ADD and early leaving from schooling.

I think it is wonderful that girls are having the opportunity and have the drive for higher education, but something sociological is taking place to the detriment of boys' development.

IMHO, as Mom of a boy and a girl.

DemEx

[superconnected]

87. Since the boys aren't allowed to disrupt the classrooms anymore

...the classrooms are considered unfriendly to them... gee.

Maybe the problem with boys starts at home. Maybe they need to learn to stop disrupting the place so boys who can handle school and girls can study.

I'm not going to feel sorry for "ADD" kids. My opinion is a high rate of them play killing and fighting video games most of their off school/sleep hours and eat junk food.

Sure ADD exists. But most experts say the over diagnosis is rampant. It's part of the over diagnoisis for ritalin and other anti-depressents problem.

[DemExpat]

89. I do agree with over diagnosis here.

And see the problem as larger than a school problem and one of class disruption.

I see it more as a societal problem of urban communities/neighborhoods, not being "friendly" for boys - especially - who need physical action/challenge and play to develop wholely.

Also, boys don't seem to have really close male mentors/father figures to emulate since fathers, if present in a family, work at places inaccessible to sons to hang around in.

Just my thoughts on boys here....

DemEx

[Captain Hilts]

111. Are there fewer men teaching in high school than in the past?

Do male students no longer dominate school offices for both faculty and students?

Is football STILL the primary focus of high school social activities?

I've seen no evidence the answer to any of these questions is 'no'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My high school was dominated by men - the school management and student body.

[DemExpat]

118. I am an ex-pat, and in Holland schools look to me to be very

female oriented with teaching staff - especially in elementary and middle school years. No highschool sports like in the US with football, basketball. No high-profile student government offices here either.

But in general the teaching profession here is having a very hard time of it to attract students for training. Very few young people want to teach anymore, it seems. :-(
While older teachers are bowing out earlier because of 'burn out' from added pressures and turmoils in the schools in the last decade or so.

DemEx

[umass1993]

101. I don't know how to respond to such anger.

[mondo joe]

102. I agree. Imagine if someone wrote "Blacks aren't allowed to

disrupt the classroom any more." Or "Girls aren't allowed to monopolize teacher time any more". Or "Jews aren't allowed to get special preference any more".

It's really troubling to see that some people just want to replace one sexism with a different sexism. :-(

[phylny]

136. I couldn't agree MORE.

I have been in and out of classrooms, from preschool through high school, for a long time in my profession. I've also worked with many teachers and parents, as well as many principals.

The classrooms I've been in do NOT demand total silence, nor total conformation. The kids generally have a great deal of flexibility and are able to move around, get out of their seats, and have spirited participation. What the teachers in the classroom do seem to demand nowadays is respect from all students to the teachers and fellow students.

In classrooms that I frequented, more often than not, the kids who could not exercise self-control when needed and who did not listen to the teacher were boys. These are not all boys with ADD or ADHD, these are just boys.

The biggest change and problem I see today is the increased coddling of some little boys by their mothers and fathers. Sorry, I call it as I see it. The prevailing notion among these parents is that their boy son's feelings might be somehow hurt or their development stunted by having to actually listen to a teacher or authority figure. These kids run roughshod over their parents, have no consistent discipline at home, and had parents who did everything they could to protect their son from any type of failure, real or imagined.

Although I don't have statistics to back up my anecdotal observation, teachers were far less tolerant of a girl being disruptive than a boy.

[umass1993]

100. Thanks for so clearly and evenhandedly

responding to my sub-thread.

You did a much better job than I ever could.

[mondo joe]

103. As a parent of two daughters, I agree with you.

Schools these days are often better set up to accomodate the behavioral trends of girls.

My daughters are both excellent students. But the older of the two is very quiet and serious and linear - it's easy for her to do well.

Her younger sister is very active and a clown. We used to worry a bit about her behavior until we met more famiiles with sons and realized she wasn't hyperactive and didn't have ADD - she was acting like a boy.

And not surprisingly, the older excels in language skills and the younger is brilliant at math. But they have very different learning styles.

[Marr]

90. I'm inclined to agree with you.

[sandnsea]

93. It's uncool to value school and education

That's right. In the "male teen subculture". Hmmmm. Sounds like ego and testosterone might have something to do with that. Most of the time, that's got something to do with how men see themselves in relation to each other and their competition for women. It isn't tearing them down, it's pretty near a fact and pretty obvious too.

While schools may change whether they teach whole language or phonics, do more group projects or more study sheets, the basis of the school system has not changed. In some parts of the country, rural America, it's hardly changed at all. But young males not attending college or valuing education is going on everywhere.

It is wrong to say that the school system has "changed" to value women more, it hasn't. Women have changed and value their education more, that's all. Society changed. And when it changes in the message it sends to boys about valuing their brains over brawn, they'll start going to college too. But that won't happen, because this country needs its warriors.

[mondo joe]

74. That's more ugly sexism.

For years we've heard that schools had to change to accomodate girls because the old system favored boys.

I'm sure there were some sexist assholes who said things like "the problem is female need for attention and the system shouldn't change to shove boys out of thhe picture because of it."

We ought to be helping our boys and girls get the best, most engaged education they can.

[umass1993]

94. Yes, it is true

boys score lower than girls in reading in every state that publishes statisitcs.

You are angry, so take it out on children? Like I said, sick.

[Ellen Forradalom]

50. The vista from this sweeping statement

is breathtaking. Please back it up with evidence.

"Since secondary education is mostly populated by women, they have made a women-friendly education system, and left boys behind in the process."

[sandnsea]

60. Men's Rights and Neo-feminist theory

War Against Boys Despite the fact that any of us who went to school in the 50's or 60's know that boys were rowdier then too, and made to sit down and behave themselves, suddenly that kind of environment is friendlier to girls. Not letting boys run wild is a "war" against them. Recognizing that some of these boys actually have ADD, and medicating them, is part of the war too. I just think it's nutty. Either more girls now know that they really can get an education and so they just do what they always could have done. Or, boys aren't at the top academically anymore and can't handle it so they quit trying altogether. Either way, it isn't the fault of the girls or the education system. It just hasn't changed that much.

http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript893.html

[DemExpat]

86. I think it is broader than the school system...

might have to do with the fact that kids don't freely play outdoors anymore - here in Holland's urban areas they surely do not. How many hours are kids on computers and in front of televisions anymore when not in school?

Young buys I know might do one sporting activity a few times a week, but daily gym at school has been whittled away to almost nothing, and what really turns boys on are action computer games. Not much physical action/release there.

This is perhaps a real factor here, a lack of physical roughhousing and freedom to play outdoors that girls don't seem to miss.

Popular cultural messages of learning not being "cool" for guys are also perhaps strongly influencing the (some) boys.

IMHO

DemEx

[JayWyss]

127. I think the lack of TRUE physical activity is the problem for boys

I have to say I think not having recess, gym or outdoor playtime is right on the money but I base this solely off personal experience.

In elementary school in Canada where I had THREE recesses a day I had great grades.

In America, where I had 1 a day I had terrible grades.

In middle school, gym was every other day and was absolute BS and I had terrible grades.

Then I started running in the spring of 8th grade and my grades kept getting better & better the more I ran. As time spent running went up, so did my grades b/c I could actually sit down, focus and study!

30-40 miles a week and I was getting Bs
40-50 and I was gettings some As, but mostly Bs
50-100 and I'm nearly a straight A student

If it wasn't for high school & college track & field I'd probably be considered ADD and on some sort of drug to settle me down.

[DemExpat]

131. Your experience does seem to confirm this, Jay,

I'm glad that you found a positive outlet for your physical energies, and that this has such a great influence on your mental performance as well!

I tried to get my son into various sports (all sports are extra-curricular here) as his sister loved tennis, but he would have none of any organized activities after school - after a long day of having to sit and do what others bid him he wanted nothing more than to be "free".
He did love playing soccer with friends in the schoolyard after school was out, but that wasn't quite enough IMO.

DemEx

edit: and Welcome to DU! :toast:

[umass1993]

108. between 1961 and 2001

Female secondary teachers went from ~70% to ~80%.
Think of that, as fathers become less likely to be involved in a boy's life, only 2 out of 10 teachers are male.

The percent of principals from 1993 to 1999 went from ~33% to ~43%

BTW: The teacher salaries have skyrocketed along with increased female teacher percentages, although principal wages have stagnated. Probably has to do with the NEA.

[eridani]

67. Pre-college level teaching has always been dominated by women

So what's changed?

[Captain Hilts]

82. Not high school. Math, history, geography, science and government depts.

were dominated by male teachers in my high school.

[eridani]

129. I was trying to figure out some reason why boys' interest in college--

--has fallen by the wayside. Has there been any change in the male/female teacher ratios over the past 25 years?

[lovuian]

44. I think the girls have made tremendous progress but the boys

have been purposely uneducated for a reason!!! This has been a major plan for a long time!!! too dumb down the American Male and they did it!!! This is why America is suffering right now and it will suffer even more if this keeps going on...

Uneducated males are probably being pushed into signing up for the Army!!!

[Tiggeroshii]

47. Holy shit i'm a minority

[JusticeForAll]

49. What are corresponding high school graduation rates?

That might help identify where the gap is coming from...

[superconnected]

56. pluse we need the rates of guys opting out of going to college though

the decades.

Nothing here says because more women are going to college means less men are. How much per captia ever did.

I know plenty of guys who opted out of college. Men as a whole had the chance all along - far more than women did. And most opted out of going.

Now that women see it as an option and choose to go- more per capta than men, does not mean men are being held out.

[lolly]

62. A more meaningful statistic

Would show what percentage of boys graduated from high school, and what percentage of girls (both now, and 20 years ago, or whenever we're measuring this shift from)

For college, what percentage of men get a Bachelor's? Of women?

This would show whether men are going in the same numbers they always have, while women have been going in greater numbers, or whether men really are "losing out."

Without those numbers, we really don't know what these statistics mean.

[Dude_CalmDown]

61. OK, now I really want to go get my master's degree.

Any studies showing which degree is taken by mostly liberal women?

[ckramer]

63. Get this

"women ages 35 to 44 with psychology degrees and working as social scientists earn 101 percent as much as their male colleagues. Women with engineering degrees between the ages of 33 and 44 make 95 percent as much as their male counterparts"

"There are four times as many female attorneys today as in 1975, and twice as many doctors"

[The Blue Knight]

64. Just did a paper on this in ENEX101...

60% of men are business majors.
80% are engineers.

And as the prestige of the school goes up, the prescence of women decrease.

[smirkymonkey]

71. Wait, how can 60% of men be business majors, and 80% of men

be engineers? That's 140%. I would take it you are not in either one of those groups.

Also, I would like to see a link that backs up your last statement. The percentage of women at Ivy League schools (the country's most prestigious universities) is as follows:

Harvard 50%
Yale 50%
Brown 53%
Princeton 49%
Penn 51%
Cornell 50%
Dartmouth 49%
Columbia 51%

Source: University Websites

These percentages have been increasing and will most likely continue to do so.

[umass1993]

99. Your point is consistent with what I said,

there are 'winners' and 'losers'. These schools and occupations get the winners.

But the 'losers' are people too. Shouldn't we provide equal oppurtunity to all boys/males?

[Zodiak]

119. I think you meant that 60% of Engineers are men

otherwise, more than a quarter of our nation would be male engineers.

[phylny]

137. Man, I can see that.

My oldest daughter is an engineering student at a prestigious public southern university. Her GPA was lagging behind some other students, mainly because she did not get good grades in her computer science classes - she was inexperienced in that area. However, she's really doing well and loving her work and studies.

She was unable to compete (GPA) to get into two engineering majors that she was interested in, so scheduled a meeting with the dean of the E school to discuss her options. He said to her, and I kid you not, "You really seem to do well in Philosophy. Are you sure that you want to be in our engineering school? Are you sure you belong at this university? Why don't you think about majoring in Philosophy?"

My daughter responded, "Of course I belong here. Because I'm in the E school and while I'll minor in philosophy, I think my chances of being employed will be better if I continue my studies as an engineering major."

This guy was ready to ditch my daughter (who, by the way, is doing just fine grades-wise, just not on par with the biomedical/premed crowd in the E school.) I wonder if he'd be just as quick to suggest a Philosophy major to a male student? Dunno.

In any event, her plan is to finish her major in Engineering Science, with a minor in Philosophy, and go to law school. You go girl :)

[eridani]

68. Some schools are lowering their requirements for male entry

Affirmative action for various kinds of balance, including gender, is fine by me. What I don't get is why men refuse to recognize this as affirmative action.

[superconnected]

88. how are schools tailored to "girls" other than kicking out disruptive boys

[mondo joe]

97. If you decide a gender is "disruptive" you're already tailoring it.

For years we heard that girls were being treated unfairly because they TEND to learn and behave differently than boys for whom school was tailored. Examples include asking kids to come forward with answers because girls TEND to hold back in that situation so didn't get called on as often.

I thought it was good and right to point those things out, and to make schools a better place for all kids.

I do think boys and girls TEND to learn and behave differently. Boys tend to need to get some physical activity out. Girls tend to do better with quiet study and longer focus. These aren't universals - just trends.

But I don't think the system should treat either as the norm and the other as a special need.

[superconnected]

106. I'm being specific - by disruptive boys I mean boys that are being disrup

-tive. I'm going from a post farther up where someone suggested that schools are more friendly to girls because they kick out boys when they are being disruptive.

[Captain Hilts]

114. Man did my sister and I defy this stereotype:

"Boys tend to need to get some physical activity out. Girls tend to do better with quiet study and longer focus. These aren't universals - just trends."

We didn't even sit still at the dinner table.

The "Quiet study with longer focus" reminds me of my dad telling me the old women are better at detail, etc. than men are or my mother telling me that women can do more things at once than men can. The problem with both theories is that the people in our world didn't fit those stereotypes.

I used to teach university level and I will say that women are FAR less likely to speak out in class than male students. Male students are more likely to challenge female professors than male professors. You always had some guy who'd sit in the front row with his arms folded across his chest and not take notes. I kicked one out for reading the newspaper.

Women do better at written projects and men at standardized tests. I didn't really see that affect classroom behavior. You don't do standardized tests in class or write termpapers.

[mondo joe]

115. I have 2 daughters, both excellent students, but in VERY

different ways. The younger of the two used to worry us - when we met more families with sons we learned she wasn't hyperactive or ADD*, but was a lot more like a boy than her older sister.

One excels in language skills, the other in math. They're both fantastic students but they learn in very different ways and have very different needs.

So i don't mean to stereotype - these traits are plainly not universal. But I do think there are trends - and it doesn't even matter if they are gender linked. We need to have ways to educate kids even with different learning styles.


(*With almost too many physicians in the family we knew she was neither, but we were anxious anyway.)

[umass1993]

98. I could hypothesize,

but I won't. I would simply encourage you to go to a bookstore or library and read about the issue. There are books that have been published recently.

I recommend all doubters to do so. Read a recent book on boys and school. It may change your view on boys, men and people in general. It can't hurt.

[superconnected]

107. without examples I won't be reading the books you

suggested - without naming.

Want to share a little more? It would help to at least give a reason WHY to read the books, you didn't bother naming.

I have some immediate guesses on why you didn't bother naming them, but I don't want to "hypothesize."

[umass1993]

110. I'll tell you why

I don't know their titles. But I have seen them. I notice them because of my father's related work. They are there. Search on Amazon if you want. This isn't super secret info.

I recommend reading them because I think you have a false notion that life is all potato salad and high salaries for men. If you focus on the 'winners', because of jealousy or whatever other reason, yes being a male does seem great.

But there are a lot of losers out there. Maybe they are not as visible, but they are there. Just like the poor, they may not be visible to some, but they are there.


I'll give you one book title and author, "Stiffed" by Susan Faludi.

[Psephos]

113. Here are a couple of books in addition to Faludi's work

I'm not recommending them for their point of view but because they are thoughtful, thorough, and likely to stimulate thinking. There are sections in each that are relevant to the discussions in this thread.

The Decline of Males: The First Look at an Unexpected New World for Men and Women, by Lionel Tiger. This book is nonsexist and nonpolitical (although anyone who disagrees with what Tiger says might feel differently). Fascinating exploration from a biological anthropologist with a long record of incisive writing.

The Myth of Male Power, by Warren Farrell. This book is likely to stimulate emotion as well as thought. Farrell's observations are controversial and powerful, and there are "Aha!" moments in them. Whether or not you agree with his analyses, it's well worth hearing him out; when he doesn't persuade you, he stimulates you to strengthen your own arguments.

Peace.

[Endangered Specie]

121. As far as I am concerned, this is GOOD news

:evilgrin:

[Barkley]

123. Some colleges have "Affirmative Action" programs for males

The Male Minority

As men slip to 44 percent of undergrads, some colleges actively recruit them

http://www.time.com/time/education/article/0,8599,90446,00.html

[entanglement]

124. The gap is especially acute in the Black and Hispanic communities

which is deeply disturbing.

[HockeyMom]

125. OLDER women

I went back at 48. I though I would be the so called "odd man out". Do you have any idea how many older women I met on campus?

[DemExpat]

126. LOL! Join the crowd then....

I will earn my Bsc/BA in the next year, year and a half - also as a middle aged female catching up on development and interest goals that I passed on earlier in life.

:toast: :toast: :toast:

DemEx

[1932]

128. So now men are going to be OK with affirmative action?