Old Bush vs. new (Bracing for attack from Brent Scowcroft)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20051021-051052-6225r

The Bush administration is bracing for a powerful new attack by Brent Scowcroft, the respected national security adviser to the first President George Bush.

A Republican and a former Air Force general, Scowcroft is a leading member of the bipartisan foreign policy establishment, and his critique of both of the style and the substance of the Bush White House, is slated to appear in Monday's editions of the New Yorker magazine.

The article also contains some critical comments on the handling of U.S. foreign policy by the current President Bush from his father, whose 1989-1993 presidency is hailed for deft management of the end of the Cold War, German unification, the first Gulf war and the collapse of the Soviet Union.

<snip>

The attack also comes as President Bush's opinion poll approval ratings have sunk to around 37 percent, partly reflecting the ill-handled federal government response to Hurricane Katrina's devastation of the Gulf coast. But majorities of Americans are also telling pollsters the country "is on the wrong track" and saying the Iraq war was a mistake.

[OKNancy]

1. I disagee with part of this article

"Scowcroft's criticisms will be taken seriously at the highest levels of the Bush administration because he is seen as a mentor by some of its senior figures....."

Bull-hockey. They will just paint him as a traitor and go after him just like everyone else who doesn't go along with the idiots in the White House.
( I wonder what Papa BUsh said? )

[Straight Shooter]

6. I disagree with your assessment

I think, at this stage of the game, that going after someone like Scowcroft will absolutely reek of desperation. The bush administration is in deep sh*t now for their dangerous game of vengeance against Wilson. They have far overplayed their hand. The masks have come off. They are exposed. Scowcroft has probably been waiting for this moment for a long, long time.

Of course, with Wilson, there are many more layers than merely vengeance, but in time people will know about those, too.

[madmark]

10. Scowcraft will bring a different level of stature and insight to the

critique, it will be devastating. He may be the strongest foriegn policy strategist in country, and because of his prior relationship with the father and first Iraq war. It will be like an adult finally saying something to f*ck up kids who are in over their head.

[NewJeffCT]

42. they'll try to bury it

we need to make sure the rest of the media picks this story up...Fox, CNN, etc will try to ignore it.

[PurpleChez]

58. I respect your assessment but I also agree with OKNancy

The Meirs nomination has shown that * and his thugs continue to act as if it's still 2002 and Chimpy is still generally accepted to be our infallible Caesar. I don't doubt that some of them, at some level, know that their world is starting to come crashing down around them but I'll betcha that (in public at least) they will continue to attack anyone...ANYONE...who dares to suggest that President Corky is anything less than the Vicar of Christ.

[Straight Shooter]

60. The problem bush has is that Scowcroft is tied to bush's daddy

If bush attacks Scowcroft, then by association he is attacking his father. It's sticky, sticky, sticky. Kind of like flypaper. Now, where have we heard the word "flypaper" before? Hmmm...

This coming week will prove to be very interesting indeed. I think the bush administration may finally be outflanked by the opposition.

[PurpleChez]

62. Of course this brings up all the Oedipal aspects of the * regime

Like killing 10s of 1000s of people to make daddy proud of you; going to war against a foreign leader and not consulting the one president who previously went to war against that same leader, even though he's YOUR FATHER. This is a weird, sick bunch of psychopaths, and you are absolutely right that the coming week will be interesting.

[zann725]

70. "Ties" have been known to be broken...when an Admin's on the way down.

Everyone loves a winner!

[JoFerret]

12. He was, has been, and maybe still is

a mouthpiece for Poppy.

[stevedeshazer]

16. I think Poppy is quietly pulling the Lil' Prince away by the sausage

Via Scowcroft. I agree, JoFerret.

I've said repeatedly here that it will take Republicans to stop these other Republicans.

Just wait and see.

[Vinnie From Indy]

21. I agree

BushCo. had nothing to fear from the Dems and thier ultimate demise will come at the hands of their own morally bankrupt bretheren.

[indypaul]

39. Why interfere when they form

their circular firing squads?

[FighttheFuture]

53. Because the Dems have to start standing for something...

Ot they need to sail off into the night also.

Otherwise, when the Repugs implosion is done with, we will still have Repuglican-lite running the show. The country needs a very new direction and a dusting off of ideas back from FDR, Truman, Johnson, Carter, even Nixon!

We have been on a disaster heading since Reagan. All Clinton managed to do was slow us down, but he did not change course.

[Iowa]

57. FighttheFuture nailed it! Excellent post.

[beltanefauve]

61. Sometimes I like to imagine

what our course would have been like if MLK and RFK weren't assassinated.

[JoFerret]

63. Or if Reagan had not stolen the 1980 election

with the republican (Bush senior leading) manipulation of the Iranian hostage release.

[LynnTheDem]

24. They totally ignored Scowcroft when he opposed invading Iraq.

And Scowcroft made no secret of his opposition.

[leesa]

27. Exactly. Scowcroft was completely ignored then. Will they try to say

this is new?

[dansolo]

28. But Bush had high approval ratings back then

Republicans were able to put aside Scowcroft's concerns because they chose to ride the perceived popularity of the invasion. Even if he is ignored by the Administration now, he won't be ignored by the rest of the party.

[Peace Patriot]

34. For the record, 58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war...

...before the invasion. Across the board in all polls. Feb. '03.

That number dipped only once, in the few weeks of the invasion with U.S. troops at max risk, then went right back up to nearly 60%, where it stayed throughout the election.

Also, Bush's approval ratings, never high (except for a very brief period right after 9/11), were so low, leading up to the election, that Zogby said he could not win.

The opinions of the great majority of Americans are irrelevant to these people.

[melody]

36. what a great post - thanks for making this point n/t

[NewJeffCT]

43. can you link me to those polls?

I'd appreciate it as ammo for a LTTE.

[PurpleChez]

59. True that!

"The opinions of the great majority of Americans are irrelevant to these people."

God, that puts it in a nutshell!

* and his brown shirts would piss in the faces of a thousand lesser people in order to please one donor, one CEO, or one fundie bigot preacher. I find it mind numbing that millions of NASCAR Americans actually believe that * stands for them, when he has demonstrated frequently and explicitly that he doesn't care about anyone -- 'cept maybe Jim Beam, Jack Daniel, and that roguish Capt. Morgan! Better dust off the ol' beer bong, Georgie; it's only gonna get worse from here on.

[louis-t]

29. My first thought was also...

Wonder how Poppy and Babs are taking this?

[peacebird]

2. Fantastic! More rats leaving sinking ship!

:toast:

the more repugs speak out - the better!

[EVDebs]

3. Scowcroft and A World Transformed along with the Powell Doctrine

"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome."

Bush, George H.W. and Brent Scowcroft. A World Transformed.
New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998. ISBN 0-679-43248-5 (p. 489).

"Essentially, the Doctrine expresses that military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged."

from PBS's
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/iraq/powelldoctrine_short.html

DU must continue to 'hoist them on their own petard' ! The occupation is ongoing and a quagmire; the Powell Doctrine was shit-canned by the neo-cons. Shameless stupidity on parade with Republicans leading the band.

[Canuckistanian]

18. That article always impresses me...

Not that I have any particular love for Poppy, but he and Scowcroft make a lot of sense.

And it makes crsytal clear the theory that Shrub has abandoned the old guard completely.

[Sagan]

4. Old Guard vs. New GOP?

I would say that this is an attempt of traditional Republicans to take back their party, but after 11 years, I know that they just don't have the guts for it.

[nookiemonster]

9. Yep. If the traditionalists want their party back, it's their fight!

But as you stated, I wonder if they would betray their masters. It's a tough sell. They're pretty fucked up.

It's their house to clean. Ya broke the shit, now fix it.

Of course, we're still going to clean your clocks when '06 comes around and WE WILL make an example out of you. It's gonna get pretty hostile.

Count on it.

[renate]

5. very nice

I don't see myself ever voting for one because I still disagree with them on too many issues, but I do respect Republicans who speak out against other Republicans instead of brainlessly and obediently toeing the party line--especially those who did it before it became popular. Wasn't Scowcroft one of the people from Bush I's administration who were criticizing the war before it even began?

Also, I liked the last paragraph:
A cartoon in the Washington Post Friday depicted the Bush White House being inundated by "The Perfect Storm" of Miers, Hurricane Katrina, Iraq, Rove, the budget deficit and the indictment this week of the Republican leader in the House of Representatives, Tom DeLay, on charges of money laundering campaign funds.

Only a few months ago, a news article would NEVER have included a description of an anti-Bush cartoon.

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. Can't wait for the next TOONS edition.

From the article:
A cartoon in the Washington Post Friday depicted the Bush White House being inundated by "The Perfect Storm" of Miers, Hurricane Katrina, Iraq, Rove, the budget deficit and the indictment this week of the Republican leader in the House of Representatives, Tom DeLay, on charges of money laundering campaign funds.

[Spazito]

11. Here is the toon they are referring to, I believe

(Thanks to CatWoman for posting this in GD!)

[deadparrot]

8. Popcorn, anyone?

:popcorn:

[No Exit]

17. Hee! Or... pretzels?

[Kurovski]

46. But remember: pretzels and bourbon are a hazardous mix.

[robbedvoter]

13. Scowcroft wrote an anti-war editorial back in 2002.

other than that, don't care who clobbers whom.

[Demit]

20. The op-ed in the NY Times, right?

I remember that. The theory was that that was Poppy sending Scowcroft out to publicly warn his son about the dangers of invading Iraq. Fat lot of good that did. Bush's instinct has always been to defy his father.

[ribrepin]

23. Seems Scowcroft is again going public with his concerns

Makes me wonder what the plans are for Syria or Iran. Hmmmm

[Peace Patriot]

35. Plans? We're already over the border into Syria. It began during Katrina

with the US bombing the shit out of some villages on the border. Now Syrian soldiers are being killed, with not even a hint of Congressional approval (the excuse not yet cooked up by the deeply rooted "aspens"?).

[adigal]

14. Papa criticizing Sonny Boy???

"The article also contains some critical comments on the handling of U.S. foreign policy by the current President Bush from his father, whose 1989-1993 presidency is hailed for deft management of the end of the Cold War, German unification, the first Gulf war and the collapse of the Soviet Union."

Wow. I would love to be a fly on the wall at this year's Bush Family Thanksgiving. Thinking W will be drinking??

[justgamma]

30. I remember Poppy on the Today Show

before the war started. Someone asked him what he thought. He said"I don't think it's a good idea" Then he said that that would be the only time he will ever say that.

[bleever]

15. Nominated. The joy of seeing everyone pile on these bullies and losers,

after the evil they've unleashed on this great nation and the world.

:thumbsup:

[goforit]

19. This will really hurt Poppy Bush.

Awe....couldn't have happenned to a meaner guy.

[The Roux Comes First]

22. pawn to king four

As others have said, this will be fun to watch. Of course we have no way of knowing how subtle and nuanced or (alternatively) blunt Scowcroft will be. That is certainly one $64,000 question.

The other big question is whether junior (shrub) is able with some of his key handlers a tad distracted right now to get beyond his familiar 19-year-old petulant anti-parent mania. As mentioned elsewhere here, it seems unlikely (and I would think very foolish) that the rhinestone non-cowboy would go on record with any major counterpoint, but that is what we'll be learning soon.

[Shipwack]

25. Nuance? Ha!

"As others have said, this will be fun to watch. Of course we have no way of knowing how subtle and nuanced or (alternatively) blunt Scowcroft will be."

It depends on who the article is really written for. If it is to galvanize the "Old Guard Republicans", it will be full of carefully shaded arguments to convince them to start taking they're party back.

If it is a "wake up" letter to Bush Jr, then nuance is wasted on him, since he would just want to know what happened to the "old ance"...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

26. Mercy me...

The Corleones are going after Sonny.

[afdip]

31. must be in next week's new yorker . . . not in the oct 24th one

[grasswire]

32. disinformation

Scowcroft is Condi's mentor. She learned "diplomacy" at his knee.

Believe NOTHING from longtime Bush associates. Nothing.

[Peace Patriot]

37. Good advice, grasswire. I agree. Bush I stripped Iraq of all defenses,

then AWOL bombed, invaded and occupied. Maybe it's an oil fight. Who gets to "manage" the loot? Dunno. Of one thing you can be sure: the views of the sovereign people of the United States are not factored in. We're just pawns in their game (--as that greatest of seers Bob Dylan once sang).

[Jose Diablo]

41. You got it

Bu$h I is the same as his little boy. The guy is a weasel. Always has been. Then for some so called 'hero' like Snowcrotch to come riding in to save the day is just so much BS.

As for the 'success' of Gulf I, has anybody checked the Veterans Adm lately about those strange cancers that keep popping-up. And how about how Poppy set-up Hussein when the Emir of Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields and told Hussein to go ahead and do something about it, the USA would stay back. And how about the phony information about how Hussein was getting ready to invade Saudi Arabia. That war was a slaughter of the Iraqi. There was never any doubt whatsoever, the crummy Russian arms were no match. The stealth bombers came in (blind to radar) and knocked out all the Iraqi air defenses, after that it was a turkey shoot. As for holding back, don't believe it. Virtually every electric plant, water purification plant, sewer plant, telephone system, everything was destroyed. The only reason they didn't march to Baghdad then was because Poppy didn't want to bust-up the coalition. If he could have done it, he would have done just what junior did. Iraq was left prostrate and the coalition walked away, even putting sanctions so the country had no chance to rebuild. None.

In light of how he set-up Hussein for that invasion and the subsequent oil for food program that from what I hear has killed 2,000,000 Iraqi children due to starvation, Bu$h I has nothing, nothing to be proud of. He is just like junior.

And now he is gonna scold junior? This is so much BS, where are my hip boots?

[madmark]

45. You may not have liked the strategic goals of the Bush I gang, but

I think we can all agree on this, unlike the current bunch of Junior Bush morons, the Bush I gang were competent at executing what they were doing. And that competence is what I am anticipating Scowcroft's critique to reflct.

[Jose Diablo]

47. Some could disagree

I say Junior is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing, that is destroy the USA. And he's doing a marvelous job of doing just that.

If we look at what is happening, with a war thats bleeding us dry, with the loss of economic stability, the selling of our assets to a foreign power, all this is going exactly to the IMF playbook.

Remember Poppy's speech about the NWO. Junior is following the overall strategy to a 'T'.

And some say junior is stupid. He's not stupid, maybe insane, but far from stupid. Underestimate him at our peril.

Even the dumbing down of any federal response ability is part of the plan.

This perpetual war will destroy our military, thats part of the plan too. To privatize the military and socialize its cost for the international corporate interests. It's part of killing democracy around the world and removing power from people.

After taking down the USA, then taking down the rest of the world by these globalist/corporatist operating within the IMF will be a walk in the park.

It's all part of bringing a NWO, and that comes from Poppy's own mouth. And juniors is playing his role to make that NWO happen, just like Poppy played his role. These guys are not incompetent.

[grasswire]

51. exactly

It started with the Russell Trust, several generations ago. These guys are taught to make chaos in order to cover their piracy and profiteering.

They profit from spilled blood.

[grasswire]

50. remember the babies pulled out of incubators?

Remember that, in the runup to the Gulf War?

I rest my case. Grifters. Ghoulish, greasy grifters. All of them. They're just a little more bold now that they control the voting machines.

[Beetwasher]

33. Nice! Nothing Like A Good Game of Piling On!

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

38. Scowcroft is one of Poppy's mouthpieces. They are good friends.

He would never say this stuff without Poppy's approval.

[Captain Hilts]

68. VERY true. GHWB must know - and perhaps, approve - of the piece. nt

[VegasWolf]

40. Old Bush vs new Bush, more like Dumb and Dumber! nt

[madmark]

44. Current bush is the worst president I have seen during my life;

Elder bush was not and he had several strengths, one of which was diplomacy and realpolitiqe analysis. In addition to the foriegn policy strength, he started the tax increases that led to, under Clinton, the fiscal balance and 90's prosperity and stability that his son has squandered.

[Jose Diablo]

48. Agreed, he is the worst president ever

but it was Poppy and his stealing the election for junior that put us where we are. It was in Jeb's home turf that put junior where he is at.

I say Poppy set-up that election fraud, along with his buds in the CIA that have been stealing elections around the world for years.

Putting junior in place IS part of Poppy's strategy. As is Poppy's plan to destroy our country. The CIA brought stealing elections to a fine art through decades of practice.

Edit to add: It was Poppy's advice to junior to place Cheney as the VP. Remember how Junior said he asked Cheney for advice on who to run as VP, and Cheney came back with me.

The malfeasance and misfeasance is all part of the plan. Poppy and Cheney used junior.

[VegasWolf]

56. Huh? Old Bush was completely out of touch with reality. I didn't think

that there could be a worse president until his son showed that it was possible. No wonder Old Bush was never rewarded with a 2nd shot.

[Captain Hilts]

66. True. George I's cabinet was pretty good [Thornburgh - eeek!]

But George I isn't given enough credit for stopping the irresponsible spending of Reagan.

[Tight_rope]

64. I totally agree. I can't wait to see what Big Papa will say....

his useless son. Note: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[proud patriot]

49. Woa

:wow:

[FighttheFuture]

52. Uh oh!! Time to whack poppy, but wait, Estate tax repeal isn't til 2010!

Oh No!! What to do Mr. Bush?! Ah, ha ha ha ha!!

[prescole]

54. Worst. President. Ever.

Makes Hoover look like a godsend. Those who've kept silent out of party or personal loyalty are coming out of the woodwork (and that includes Bill Clinton, who took a swipe a week or two ago...)
We'll be paying for the boy president for a long, long, long time.

[Selteri]

55. Wrong track? I'd say it's on a roller coaster to hell at this rate. NT

[Tight_rope]

65. Amen to the comment!

[BrklynLiberal]

67. Georgie Boy's Worst nightmare: Public humiliation at the hands of his own

father. If this does not send him off the deep end, nothing will.

[RamboLiberal]

69. Excerpts are Out - some juicy stuff

And it occurs to me as it has to all of us - we're the ones paying for this black sheep son trying to prove he has more gonads than his father. * belongs on the couch not in the WH.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001023.html

<snip>

Colleagues have paid particular notice to the relationship between Scowcroft and Rice, who worked closely during the first Bush Administration. Friends of Scowcroft recall a dinner in September of 2002, when discussion of the impending war in Iraq became heated. As Goldberg reports, Rice finally said, irritably, "The world is a messy place, and someone has to clean it up."

Goldberg talks to the former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky, whose book, "The Case for Democracy," came to national attention when George W. Bush told the Washington Times, "If you want a glimpse of how I think about foreign policy, read Natan Sharansky's book." In the book, Sharansky criticizes Bush's father for a speech he gave in 1991, in Ukraine, opposing a break with the Soviet Union -- a speech critics labelled "Chicken Kiev."

Sharansky tells Goldberg that soon after his book was published, he was invited to the White House to see the President. He says, "So I go to the White House and I see my book on his desk. It is open to page 210. He is really reading it. And we talk about democracy. This President is very great on democracy. At the end of the conversation, I say, 'Say hello to your mother and father.' And he said, 'My father?' He looked very surprised I would say this."

Sharansky went on, "So I say to the President, 'I like your father. He is very good to my wife when I am in prison.' And President Bush says, 'But what about Chicken Kiev?'"

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001024.html

<snip>

Scowcroft told me that he still has a high regard for Rice. He did note, however, that her "expertise is in the former Soviet Union and Europe. Less on the Middle East." Rice, through a spokesman, said, "Sure, we've had some differences, and that's understandable. But he's a good friend and is going to stay a good friend."
Yet the two do not see each other much anymore. According to friends of Scowcroft, Rice has asked him to call her to set up a dinner, but he has not, apparently, pursued the invitation. The last time the two had dinner, nearly two years ago, it ended unhappily, Scowcroft acknowledged.

"We were having dinner just when Sharon said he was going to pull out of Gaza," at the end of 2003. "She said, 'At least there's some good news,' and I said, 'That's terrible news.' She said, 'What do you mean?' And I said that for Sharon this is not the first move, this is the last move. He's getting out of Gaza because he can't sustain eight thousand settlers with half his Army protecting them. Then, when he's out, he will have an Israel that he can control and a Palestinian state atomized enough that it can’t be a problem." Scowcroft added, "We had a terrible fight on that."

They also argued about Iraq. "She says we're going to democratize Iraq, and I said, 'Condi, you're not going to democratize Iraq,' and she said, 'You know, you're just stuck in the old days,' and she comes back to this thing that we've tolerated an autocratic Middle East for fifty years and so on and so forth," he said. Then a barely perceptible note of satisfaction entered his voice, and he said, "But we've had fifty years of peace."

[Nothing Without Hope]

71. Thread on the Scowcroft article and others by and about Wilkerson's exposé

Be sure to look at the articles posted in the replies as well as in the OP. Much important commentary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5152016
thread title: New Yorker/ Goldberger: "Breaking Ranks" - SCOWCROFT's BLAST OF BUSH 43