US troops fighting losing battle for Sunni triangle

[ECH1969]

The mob grew more frenzied as the gunmen dragged the two surviving Americans from the cab of their bullet-ridden lorry and forced them to kneel on the street.

Killing one of the men with a rifle round fired into the back of his head, they doused the other with petrol and set him alight. Barefoot children, yelping in delight, piled straw on to the screaming man's body to stoke the flames.

It had taken just one wrong turn for disaster to unfold. Less than a mile from the base it was heading to, the convoy turned left instead of right and lumbered down one of the most anti-American streets in Iraq, a narrow bottleneck in Duluiya town, on a peninsular jutting into the Tigris river named after the Jibouri tribe that lives there.

Within minutes, four American contractors, all employees of the Halliburton subsidiary Kellog, Brown & Root, were dead. The jubilant crowd dragged their corpses through the street, chanting anti-US slogans. An investigation has been launched into why the contractors were not better protected.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/22/wirq122.xml

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. How many more persons willing to kill Amurkans has gwb created

by going after Iraq's oil instead of terrorists who lived in other countries... I am sure we will find out over the years. Not a single Iraqi hijacked those airliners... NOT ONE.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Igel]

5. I'm certainly glad that you don't

speak for progressives.

And if that's progressive thinking--guilt by association, collective and communal punishment and guilt--please, give me one of those enlightened fundie freeper types. At least they're only a few hundred years behind the Enlightenment.

[The Night Owl]

6. What the hell are you talking about?

If someone in the company you work for commits murder, would you want to be put away for that person's crime even if you had nothing to do with it? Of course not.

I mean... What the hell kind of reasoning are you using? If all troops are guilty for what a minority of bad soldiers do, then we could just as easily conclude that all taxpayers, including you, are guilty for what a minority of bad soldiers do.

And, how can you not have sympathy for someone who was burned alive?

Unbelievable.

[mike_c]

68. all troops in Iraq ARE quilty of the crime of illegal occupation....

People seem completely unable to get their heads wrapped around the notion that if the invasion and occupation of Iraq are illegal, then those perpetrating it are war criminals, and the people of Iraq are their victims. Victims of violent crime occasionally fight back, to their credit.

[Kailassa]

69. You speak as though you value Iraqi lives and freedoms

as highly as you value American lives and freedoms. It's refreshing to see, as so many people only regard themselves as only citizens of their own country, rather than as citizens of the world.

:toast:

[mike_c]

75. exactly....

:hi:

[Barad Simith]

76. Victim or not, one doesn't set another living being on fire

unless one is intrinsically evil.

[Coexist]

81. I have to wonder if this isn't "retaliation" for our soldiers burning the

bodies in Afghanistan.

[oxbow]

89. The attack happenned on Sep 20

it has been suppressed by US officials until now, according to the article.

[mike_c]

82. like this...?

or this?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1051987603076_2003/05/04/05w_burnediraqi,0.jpg


I agree-- these too are the works of intrinsically evil persons.

[Barad Simith]

120. I agree (nt)

[NeoConsSuck]

97. Read post #81

and then you can tell me about your meaning of 'evil'

[Barad Simith]

119. The desecration of dead bodies is immoral & criminal. Burning people alive

is evil.

[Kailassa]

122. Yes, which is why we should not have used napalm ...

in Vietnam, and why we should not have used a napalm-like substance in Iraq. I've seen a video that was smuggled out of Fallujah, dozens of burned bodies, some only small, being buried in trenches.

It's so easy to label something as evil, and when done in this context it implies that Iraqis are evil, and will give support to those idiots who'd like to just nuke the place.

Rather than blurting out our horror, we need to be thinking about why these things are happening and what we can do to stop them.

[Toots]

124. Wasn't there a report recently of the US using Napalm in Afghanistan and

Iraq? I know they sure did in SE Asia and many were burned horribly.

[Kailassa]

125. Yes, there was.

I hope that drew similar cries of outrage here.

I know it would from some.

[malaise]

84. Correct

but who is listening. By siding with Bushco over this illegal occupation MSM is just as guilty. They have not discussed issues re international law and the violation of sovereignty of an independent nation. It's almost comical to see the attacks on Judy Miller when they all have done the saem thing.
Wake up people - the war is illegal.

[Uncle Joe]

90. If you think what Bush, the corpwhorate owned MSM, our troops

and even the mercs. are doing over there is a war crime and you are against this, then why defend a war crime on the other side? Killing someone in battle in defense is one thing, but to shoot someone in the back of the head or burn them alive after you have captured them and they are unarmed is also a war crime. I see no justification no matter who does it.

[mike_c]

92. good point, although I think it's a bit unrealistic....

You're essentially correct-- once in custody, or at least secure custody, which was debatable in this situation, common decency calls for respectful treatment. On the other hand, to the extent that war crimes are defined by international laws and treaties, "contractors" are not entitled to the same protections as uniformed combatants or civilian non-combatants.

I'm reminded of stories from WWII of allied bomber crews being killed by German townspeople after having survived parachuting to the ground when their planes were disabled. Yes, that's a war crime, at least if the combatant has formally surrendered, but nonetheless if you'd been the victim of brutal bombing campaigns-- if you'd seen friends and neigbors die in the fire storms-- you'd be likely to hold a grudge.

The people of Iraq did not ask for this, and they are the only real victims in this story. Those contractors would not have died if they were not actively supporting brutality against the Iraqis. I don't celebrate their deaths, but I won't mourn them either. They reap what they sow.

[Kailassa]

93. It's human nature, Uncle Joe.

If I'm sitting innocently at home with my family, and you break in and kill my children, it might be illegal to douse you in petrol and throw a match, but that won't stop me doing it.

They didn't start it, we did. We are the invaders, the torturers, the rapists, the thieves, the murderers there. If you start a fight, it's not up to you to dictate how your opponent may retaliate. We went where we had no right to be, we fucked the Iraqis and their country, and now we have the cheek to go "ohh, how mean," when they take revenge. Just be glad they can't pick up the cluster bombs and depleted uranium we have carpeted their country with and drop it on our hme towns.

[Uncle Joe]

96. I understand human nature Kailassa,

and this is just another example of human nature at it's lowest common denominator and I see no reason to defend it.

I do not support this war, I believe the American People were lied to by not only the Bush administration but also the media whores. But in order to overturn the coup that installed the chief war criminal that put us in to this position, it seems to me we need to avoid needlessly polarizing the American People against us. When we defend such barbaric actions whether they be understandable to us or not it makes our shared ultimate goal of getting out of Iraq that much more difficult.

[Kailassa]

99. In Australia it is illegal to hit your child.

Instead parents learn the technique of logical consequences. Children are taught that certain actions consistantly bring certain reactions, so they learn that their behaviour matters. A child brought up with this understanding might still jump off a high building, but they won't expect your sympathy when they hit the ground.

These contractors hit the ground. I feel very sorry for them, but the sooner the American public realises that the logical consequence of our invasion is that terrible things will happen, the better.

Do you think that perceiving that the war was really about oil, and seeing that they are running great risks in Iraq, will stop more mercenaries from signing up?

[Uncle Joe]

103. No, I believe, the mercenaries will sign up regardless.

However, it is the American People in general that will determine what we do in Iraq, not the mercenaries. The American People for the most part have already come to the conclusion that the war in Iraq was based on lies by Bush and the media whores. This is why his poll ratings are in the 30s now and the MSM is probably in the same range.

The Democratic Party is the party that realistically is the party that will get us out of Iraq the fastest, if we choose the right candidate. The one fly in the ointment here is the American People's perception of loyalty to our nation. If we come across as cheer leading for the enemy when they massacre unarmed Americans, it will make it that much more difficult for a anti Iraq War candidate to come to power. We will be the ones portrayed as the traitors, not Bush.

[mike_c]

104. that's why we need candidates with the vision to articulate...

...the position that the Iraqis are NOT "the enemy" and the courage to tell America the truth about Iraq. We have been lied to about Iraq since 1992 and probably for longer. Iraqis are our victims, not our enemies. Americans might not accept sympathy for enemies, but we have always empathized with the victims of violent crime. We need national leadership couragous enough to call the invasion and occupation of Iraq a war crime, and to demand investigation and prosecution of those responsible. Then Americans will begin to realize the enormity of what has been done to Iraqis.

[Uncle Joe]

107. That is why I support Al Gore for President.

He was among the first to come out opposing this war before it was popular to do so, the corpwhorate MSM did not report much on the details of his speech, they just said he was ranting or off his meds.

His most recent speech to the WE media, he addressed the threat to our democracy by the decline of "American Journalism" were the vital issues of the day are ignored and the superficial is granted primacy.

[Kailassa]

108. Exactly.

Pussy-footing around the issue just makes us look like weak wanna-be republicans. Things need to be put kindly, but with persuasiveness and strength, because there is a lot of teaching to be done.

[Uncle Joe]

113. Who is pussy-footing?

[Kailassa]

115. You said in post 103 that we risk being accused as traitors

if we express the view that the Iraqis had no right to resist the occupation of their country. That, in my view, is a suggestion that we should pussy-foot.

Perhaps we define the term differently.

[Uncle Joe]

118. This is what I said in post 103

"The one fly in the ointment here is the American People's perception of loyalty to our nation. If we come across as cheer leading for the enemy when they massacre unarmed Americans, it will make it that much more difficult for a anti Iraq War candidate to come to power. We will be the ones portrayed as the traitors, not Bush."

There is nothing in there that says the Iraqis have no right to resist the occupation of their country. What I tried to communicate was American perception of loyalty. What if you were against the war but it was your son or dad that was burned alive while unarmed over there, and someone who believed as you came out and said he deserved it because we had no right to be there. How would you feel toward your anti-war comrades, would you join them by saying he deserved it? Or would this dampen your spirit and harden your heart at being associated with your erstwhile comrades. It is possible I suppose that you would agree with the former and shout the truth from the mountain tops that yes indeed, my unarmed son deserved to be burned alive. I think most people however are more likely to feel resentment and betrayal, and the object of all of this is to get the most people on our side.

[Kailassa]

121. The question is, what should LOYALTY be?

I really don't know what you are arguing about, Uncle Joe, I have never said anyone deserves to die. I'm completely against the death penalty. I don't want anyone hurt. However I won't join in the horrified outrage at the Iraqis who killed these soldiers because they, too, are victims; victims of a war we started.

If I try to kill you and you're armed, you will most likely kill me to save yourself. It's not about blame, it's about logical consequences. I'm sure you'll feel very sorry about me dying. However your family would be likely to sympathise with you, as having to kill somebody would no doubt be traumatic for you. No amount of sympathy for me would negate the fact that you were the victim and were left scarred.

I'm speaking here from the point of view of someone who has had to kill. Killing someone is like being raped, it really tears you to pieces inside and leaves you changed forever. That's why the marines have to practice and practice "killing" human shapes. It's why their solidarity with each other is so vital, they have been through something together that no-one else will be able to understand.

So don't ask me to condemn the Iraqis to show support for our soldiers. I hope I can never do that. If you want people to hide the truth in the name of loyalty, bad luck, that is not loyalty in my eyes. Loyalty is helping the people you love understand the harm they are doing and change, not patting them on the back Bush-to-Brown style while they continue to fuck up.

[Kailassa]

106. When the truth is whispered, it sounds bad .

Better to shout it proudly.

[Uncle Joe]

109. Yes and the cold wind and the sun made a bet

on who could force a man to take his coat off first. The cold wind blew first as hard as it could, the man only clung to his coat tighter. The sun let it's warm rays shine and the man took his coat off.

[Kailassa]

111. Which proves what exactly?

There is nothing cold about what I'm saying here.

[Uncle Joe]

112. It is cold if you are the family member or friend or co-worker

of the unarmed men that was either shot in the back of the head or burned alive. I don't imagine they will listen much to our virtuous argument that this war is wrong. They will be too busy hating us for saying it was a justifiable thing to do.

[Kailassa]

114. So long as you are afraid to tell the truth that you believe,

you will look timid and not be able to get heartfelt support.
Eveyone makes mistakes, and this country needs the healing it can only get by aknowleging it has made one, and working to make amends.

Perhaps what the soldiers and their families would really like is for money to be put back into veterans affairs and hospitals, so that these kids can get looked after properly and helped to settle back into the community.

[Uncle Joe]

116. I believe the war is wrong and we should get out.

I believe Bush and his corporate owned media whores lied to the American People about the reasons to go to war with Iraq, what is so timid about that? I also believe as I stated on an earlier post the nation is aware a mistake was made, that is why Bush's poll ratings are in the basement. The curtain has been pulled back exposing the impostor for what he is.

I agree with you regarding the veterans affairs and hospitals should have more funding, they have been cut to the bone. While Bush has talked about supporting the troops on the one hand, they cut the V.A. with the other.

[TacticalPeek]

13. Please be careful with that tar brush.

It has a way of getting on oneself.

[expatriot]

19. on edit: thank you mods!!!!!

[mike_c]

3. contractors = mercenaries and war profiteers....

No sympathy for them, but I do feel sorry for their families, and for all the Iraqis they've killed or assisted killing.

[expatriot]

20. how can you say this? they are just schmucks... just not as

"enlightened" as we are. they are former cops, former military that go to some job fair and see how they can make 150,000 in a year. they sign up so they can get that cash and buy a house for their wives. not all "contractors" are security personnel. there are truck drivers, computer programmers, etc. jesus people. this is sick. i can't believe i am reading such non-sympathy for people

let's just say they did believe bush's hype... that the iraqi venture was about freedom and building a democracy... does that make them worthless criminals? do you support the death penalty in the united states? if you don't i would rethink your callous non-sympathy for those who are lynched for being pawns in Bush's war over in Iraq.

[mike_c]

66. sure, and the guy who drives the getaway car from a robbery/homicide...

...is just trying to put bread on the table, too. Those "contractors" are participants in a criminal war. They're occupying a country against its will. You think that mercs in the Sunni Triangle are the moral equivalent of rent-a-cops at the mall? They're in Iraq ro kill Iraqis or to assist others in killing or subjegating Iraqis.

[samtob]

29. "No sympathy for them"

:wow:

[tularetom]

4. This is barbaric, but

didn't I see where some Americans in Afghanistan had torched the bodies of two suspected Taliban fighters? Awful hard for us to condemn this kind of desecration when we are doing it ourselves.

[Igel]

7. No, it isn't.

Because it implies that any American is responsible for the actions of another American.

Does any random American get to attack the next Muslim s/he sees, because of what those Iraqis did?

Are dems and progressives so happy with cess-pool logic that they're defending collective punishment and communal guilt as a progressive virtue?

It makes Sharon at his very worst look good and virtuous.

[mike_c]

83. no, it's anger-- RAGE-- at the crimes being committed in our names....

eom

[oblivious]

8. "Tell them to tell us where the bad guys are so we stop frigging shooting

"They heard nothing, they saw nothing, same as ******* usual," said Sgt Jody Miller. Taking another deep drag from his cigarette, he turned to the company's translator.

"Tell them to tell us where the bad guys are so we stop frigging shooting up their houses," he said.

[Vincardog]

9. "Tell them to tell us where the bad guys are so we stop frigging shooting

up their houses," he said.

Ther lead terrorist is at 1600 Pennsylvania AVE. Washington DC

[killbotfactory]

10. Maybe next time we should think twice...

Before invading a country and stealing their natural wealth while claiming freedom and liberation.

[DinahMoeHum]

11. It will be a million times worse if Saddam Hussein is executed. . .

after his kangaroo-court trial.

He will be regarded as a martyr in the Sunni Triangle because he's one of their tribe.


:evilfrown:

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Save one bullet for yourself, KBR boys

Sadly, that's the only lesson that this horrendous incident can teach anybody.

(And go to your death like a soldier....)

[DaveColorado]

14. Candies and Flowers

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. I suppose Kipling will never become irrelevant. Sad really.

[Felix_T_Cat]

16. Didn't they hand out cyanide pills to our soldiers during WW2?

They hate us because of Bush and his buddies. I wish that we could toss all of the Bush administration and his family members into a pit filled with people that have had relatives killed. They wouldn't walk out alive because they are the ones that deserve to die.

[MarsThe Cat]

32. not to everyone-

usually just to spies and other special forces that usually worked behind enemy lines where they might be captured.

[Kailassa]

44. Yep, only to people likely to be tortured for info they had.

That was back in the days when doing torture was proof you were a bad guy.
And that still hasn't changed.

[go west young man]

17. Its a sad and tragic situation there... but I am also saddened by

some of the responses here at DU in this thread. Come on I hope we're better than that. The man was set on fire alive. Granted there are terrible things happening to Iraqis as well but all killing is atrocious and should be stopped. We at DU need to set the bar higher for ourselves and not fall into the trap of rationalizing barbaric acts. We only demean ourselves when we do. As a former marine I can honestly say there are plenty of people serving who regret joining up and despise this war and administration. As someone else said don't tar everybody with the same brush. It doesn't help anything. It emboldens the people on the right who say we're against the troops when we act this way. I personally feel empathy for that guy and his family just as I do for all victims of this misguided war.

[expatriot]

22. i so agree... in fact I am appalled at these responses.

i am having a hard time believing that they are not all from trolls but there are so many of them.

first of all, it's like they think ALL "contractors" are immediately bloodthirsty mercs when many are truck drivers, technicians of some sort or another, etc.

second of all, i would think most of these people (including myself) are against the death penalty... even death penalties hand down to those who were tried and convicted in the court of law and found guilty of some heinous crime... but yet they have no sympathy for workers who were burned alive by a mob? WHO THE FUCK CARES if they shouldn't be there, if they are part of an invading, occupying army... they are just joes who had some law enforcement, security, military background and signed the dotted line because they were tempted by the promised 100-200K for a few month tour of duty.

I am ashamed that this passes as acceptable here. I have been a proud member of DU since early 2002 and I have never been more enraged by the postings of my fellow DUers. When isolated, I write them off as the work of a troll but this is too much.

A lot of these postings sound like the Weathermen.

[mike_c]

73. I understand your sentiment...

...but I am very angry and ashamed by what my country is doing in Iraq. Even those truck driving and technician contractors are war profiteers IMO, supporting and participating in an illegal and immoral occupation. They support the brutalization of the Iraqi people. Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been murdered by the occupiers-- don't you think the Iraqis have adequate reason to fight back?

I realize that the man who was burned to death died very badly and I wouldn't wish such a death for anyone. But recall too that Iraqis are routinely shredded alive by U.S. weaponry-- are their deaths less awful? Last week 70 Iraqis were killed by U.S. bombs-- literally ripped apart-- and medical testimony suggests that they were likely civilians drawn by curiosity to a disabled humvee, including women and many children.

Read the OP's Guardian article more closely. While the man was burning, children "shrieked with delight" (paraphrased from memory) and fed the flames with straw. Children did this to a screaming man. Rather than focus solely on the suffering of that man, think for a moment of the degree to which the occupiers have brutalized Iraqis if children take delight in killing them in such an awful manner. We reap what we sow.

As for this being the opinion of a troll, I too have been here since early 2002. I recognize your name, so I'm sure you recognize mine.

[ElectroPrincess]

48. I partially agree ...

We must act and respond in a moral and humane way. Well, those of us proud to be labeled "liberal" at least. However, it's a little distasteful to disrespect fellow DUers who do not hold the same level of compassion. Why? Part of being progressive is TOLERANCE. Lecturing people on "how to feel" as this is an emotionally charged subject, brings out the right wing stereotypes of elitist liberal "wet nurses."

If we are NOT able to infuse compassion in others, unless it's gross disrespect, it's best IMO - insensitive sentiments of whatever forms are best to let is fade away through disregard.

When you shine a light on tacky sentiment, sometimes the "self-righteous rants" come across as unseemly as the slime from insensitive clods.

I should know, I've been (and may find myself again) on both sides. <blush>

[go west young man]

60. Electroprincess I'm not worried about the stereotype of being

a "wet elitist liberal". Its as simple as a human being was set on fire and people showed very little empathy. I am not telling anyone how to feel. I just "hope" we are better than some of the responses that have been posted. A true liberal person (which I believe I am) would like to see everybody happy, alive and well. Including those who are killing on both sides. Idealistic I know but I can only hope we aspire to this. I think we can be more effective against the right if we fight them with positive energy, the truth and true goodness on our side.

[ElectroPrincess]

77. Well with one minor difference we hold the same philosophy ...

I try my best to set a true moral example. Once I check myself, then everyone else's business is their own affair. That's what some of us Democrats rue the "Mommy State" view of "our" (into other people's affairs) instead of "my" (Control only over SELF and person's family. Most Important = allow others to act and believe as they wish within the law).

Bottom line = We may be all Democrats but we ain't exactly family ... IMO personal freedoms are paramount and treasured among progressives.

[Mutley]

59. I agree.

How do we know who that man was, what his beliefs are, etc? And even if he is a hardcore conservative, that does not mean he deserved to die that way. No one does; American, Iraqi, European, liberal, conservative, whatever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. So this has been supressed

and KBR is not protecting its mercs... surprise surprise

And yes they are mercs.. save a bullet boys... save a bullet

[KeepItReal]

21. Yeah, DoD supressed it...and the fact their security was inadequate

Sounds like they had U.S. troops "protecting" them, but the troops were buttoned up in their Hummvees unaware until it was too late.

"The gunmen were almost certainly emboldened by the fact that the American soldiers escorting the convoy would not have been able to respond quickly enough.

"The hatches of the humvees were closed," said Capt Andrew Staples, a member of the Task Force Liberty 1-15 battalion that patrols Duluiya and other small towns on the eastern bank of the Tigris, who spoke to soldiers involved."

[IndianaGreen]

23. Why should US troops risk their lives for the mercenaries?

We have read many accounts from troops in the field in which they had expressed their disgust with our mercs and the obscene salaries they get.

[KeepItReal]

25. These folks ambushed may have been real KBR workers, not mercs

If they were doing real reconstruction or U.S. combat support work, they may have been entitled to U.S. military protection. It is not clear what their role was specifically.

I think the Blackwater-type, armed, self-sufficient security forces are the mercenaries that our troops cannot stand. (rightfully so)

[expatriot]

27. thank you! nt

[IndianaGreen]

28. Motivated by greed, they blinded themselves to America's crimes

in attacking a defenseless nation in order to steal their oil. Sorry, but they are no different from the German civilians that worked in Nazi Occupied Europe during Worls War II.

[KeepItReal]

34. You do have a point.

What if the KBR workers were totally blinded by the propaganda Bush & Co. and the corporate media catapulted 24/7 before the invasion? Maybe they thought it was a just cause to work for?

I'm grasping at straws, mind you.

If they knew the truth and chose to work in Iraq, anyway....damn.

[expatriot]

38. And if a German construction worker was mobbed and burned alive

by Serbian partisans... that constructon worker would have my sympathy.

[IndianaGreen]

40. I wouldn't have any sympathy for a dead Nazi

which is exactly what you are defending in your analogy, an analogy in which I would have been a Serbian partisan fighting the Nazis.

[expatriot]

58. I would have been a Serb partisan also. But I would not advocate

the killing of either non-combatant or combatants that were not resisting. Even armed German soldiers that I killed would have my sympathy.

[expatriot]

26. because the mercs and our troops have the same paymasters.

the security contigents of the multi-nationals in iraq are also mostly made up of former military. by bush's own words, our troops are in iraq to protect the "reconstruction" of iraq which is synonymous with the work of the contractors.

[IndianaGreen]

30. We have no right to be in Iraq

We should get the troops out ASAP. Any American that goes to Iraq with dreams of quick money by assisting the criminal occupation of that country deserves neither our protection or our empathy.

[expatriot]

35. you are right we have no right to be in iraq.... but they get my empathy..

i don't think anyone "deserves" to be killed, let alone burned alive.

I guess I feel sorry for the people who are "suckered" into things since I have been known to have made some wrong decisions before. Are they responsible for them being in Iraq? Yes, they made the decision to sign on the dotted line. Do they deserve their fates? I definitely do not think so but even if you think they do... you can still feeel EMPATHY for them since we have all made wrong decisions in our lives.


When a desperate drug addict robs a convenience store he has already made a series of wrong choices in his life that he needs to be accountable for but I still feel empathy for him. When this drug addict is surrounded by cops and makes the split second decision to raise the pistol and is shot down by the cops it is clear that he made the wrong decision and possibly "deserved" the cops response... but I still feel EMPATHY for the man because i can EMPATHIZE with making wrong choices.

I mean this is just one aspect of it.... i don't even think a guily man deserves to be lynched and I would empathize with even a mass murderer who was lynched before he got his day in court because i can empathize (as everyone can) with feeling the blunt pain of injustice.

compassion and empathy for all living beings.

[malaise]

85. What a sad and sordid mess this illegal invasion

has created. Sorry but my sympathy is for the little children raped in front of their parents by the invading army.

[pokercat999]

52. One slight disagreement....I would change

ASAP to NOW!

[expatriot]

24. so they're all mercs and mercs aren't human.

for one thing, KBR is the engineering, technical support division of Halliburton... so there are a lot of non-mercs who work for KBR (civil engineers, etc.). Second of all, even if they were mercs? who are mercs? ex-military types, ex law enforcement, etc. so we count and lament the dead active duty Marines and put up crosses for them but the dead "mercs" who signed up for a tour in Iraw because the cash was tempting and perhaps they believed Bush's hype... they don't deserve our sympathy?

I know you didn't say anything about sympathy but i am also directing these comments to others in this thread who have said as such.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Mercs are not protected by international law

To an occupied nation, it matters not if the occupier is wearing a military uniform or civilian clothes.

[expatriot]

36. So? that has nothing to do with whether mercs deserve our

sympathy or not. They were schmucks who believed the Bush lies and had a weakness for a quick couple hundred thousand. if that were a crime, most of america would have been guilty of it at one time or another... i guess only a handful of us "enlightened" ones don't deserve to be burned alive.

[IndianaGreen]

39. Amazing the empathy for mercs and the lack of it for the ones we butchered

in Iraq, over 100,000 civilians according to a report published in the prestigious Lancet Medical Journal.

I have empathy for the innocent Iraqi civilians butchered on account of America's greed for oil. I feel nothing for American mercs who believed in Bush and Jesus and went to Iraq to profit at the expense of the Iraqi people.

Feeling empathy for dead mercs is like feeling empathy for the 9/11 hijackers.

100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, says study

Sarah Boseley, health editor
Friday October 29, 2004
The Guardian

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts.
The study, which was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of Iraq representative of the entire population, shows that violence is now the leading cause of death in Iraq. Before the invasion, most people died of heart attacks, stroke and chronic illness. The risk of a violent death is now 58 times higher than it was before the invasion.

Last night the Lancet medical journal fast-tracked the survey to publication on its website after rapid, but extensive peer review and editing because, said Lancet editor Richard Horton, "of its importance to the evolving security situation in Iraq". But the findings raised important questions also for the governments of the United Sates and Britain who, said Dr Horton in a commentary, "must have considered the likely effects of their actions for civilians".

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers who went to the 988 households in the survey were doctors and all those involved in the research on the ground, says the paper, risked their lives to collect the data. Householders were asked about births and deaths in the 14.6 months before the March 2003 invasion, and births and deaths in the 17.8 months afterwards.

When death certificates were not available, there were good reasons, say the authors. "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded. Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths," they write.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

[ElectroPrincess]

49. Yes, tis true at times ...

However, please don't confuse DU with the CNN "Nancy Grace Disgrace" where *self-righteous* censure is encouraged and spews from the commentators pores profusely every damn week night. Equally unattractive? :puke:

[expatriot]

64. How dare you imply that I lack empathy for the Iraqis.

My heart bleeds for the Iraqis killed and wounded by this war and their families and communities. This war is illegal and wrong. But that does not make every contractor deserving of death. Empathy is not a limited commoditiy.

[astroBspacedog]

78. How many people in this country still support the occupation?

Should we kill them? Where is this going? I guess two wrongs make a right these days.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Ok as a wife of a retired USN Chief

and who worked as a red cross worker will tell you, they have no legal protection under the Conventions of War, (nor my sympathy by the way) and the reasons for that are extensive and good.

Mercs are bottom feeders whether they are support or combat mercs

That said, that was a hell of a way to die, but the risks you take as a merc... anywhere around the world.

Technically a merc can be taken, disarmed, lined against the wall and shot... as they are not part of a regular armed force, that is the truth and usually that happens because of what Mercs do.

As human beings, a hell of a way to die, as mercs, no sympathy...

[expatriot]

37. the fact they have no rights under international law

HAS NOTHING to do with whether they deserve sympathy/empathy or not.

So a civil engineer who is employed by some corporation in 1999 and then is sent to Iraq in 2003 and then is burned alive does not deserve sympathy.

Maybe he swallowed the WMD lies and thought he was doing the right thing, besides it was his job and he had a mortgage to pay.

He's never shot a gun in his life and doesn't carry one.

So if he deserves no sympathy then what is the differenec between him in civilian clothes and US troops? They could have said no too. How about all the troops who joined after the Iraq invasion? They knew they were going Iraq.

I do not think ignorance or naivete should be a crime punishable by death.

on edit: must go to bed or my wife will kill me.

[IndianaGreen]

41. There is a BIG difference between mercs and US troops, other than the pay

Mercs chose to go to Iraq in order to profit. Soldiers followed orders to go to Iraq thinking they were defending our freedoms.

[expatriot]

63. "Mercs" chose to Iraq to earn a bigger paycheck and

thought, just like the troops, that they would be assisting the building of a democratic, free Iraq.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Mercs can leave at any moment

troops can't

Mercs get good gear

Troops get shit

Oh and these guys you have NO IDEA what they were... and you are assuming much that they don't know how to use a gun.

As I said, no way to die, but no sympathy from me.. I know what mercs do... and it ain't nice...

[Kailassa]

45. Expatriot, would you shoot a man, who

had broken into your house and was about to kill your wife and children if you didn't?

Americans, (and my fellow Australians,) have broken into the house of the Iraqis. They are killing their wives and children. I't silly to ask Iraquis to distinguish between "good" and "bad" Americans. The invading force is wrecking their country and killing their people. All contractors over there are members of the invading force.

When you would let an intruder kill your family rather than kill him, then you have the right to lecture us on the sympathy we should feel.

The sympathy I have for dead invaders is equaled by the sympathy I feel for their killers, for having to live with the memories of what they did to protect their country.

[expatriot]

61. Yes, I would shoot that man. of course. but that does not mean he

wouldn't have my sympathy. I would feel sorry for him that he had made the wrong choices and or that he was mentally/psychologically/emotionally disturbed. But of course I would defend my family without a second thought. But using your analogy some of these "burglars" could have actually believed that they were first responders, breaking into my house to help us. They were naive and believed the lies of Bush... I don't think that warrants what they got.


I am not blaming the Iraqi mob for doing what they did. Yes, American contractors are a symbol of the occupation. But they are pawns and the true culprits are the policy makers and the individuals on the ground with ill-intent.

[Kailassa]

80. I'm sure we all sympathise, but ...

expatriot said:

But using your analogy some of these "burglars" could have actually believed that they were first responders, breaking into my house to help us. They were naive and believed the lies of Bush... I don't think that warrants what they got.

The "first responders" were the military, not the mercenaries. As part of the invading force in a declared war, anything they got was warranted. Sorry, but that's what you accept when you join the military. You agree to fight wars you might not agree with, and to be targeted and killed if the enemy can. That's what war has been about for a very long time now.

As for your wishful thinking that the contractors are there to do productive work, it's unlikely. The contractors are soldiers, going back to work with a better paying army. There are no hospitals and schools being built over there, no Americans are improving life for the Iraqis. The main reason for contractors over there is to keep the military death toll down, Contractor deaths are not counted. Contractors can be sent to the most dangerous areas, and the government doesn't have to pay for their artificial legs later.

You might class them as pawns, but they are adults with minds of their own. They are following bad examples and sometimes bad orders, but you might remember the stance America took on "just following orders" in the Neuremberg trials. It was not considered a valid reason for what the Germans did, either.

[go west young man]

88. Your analogy fails to take into consideration people who were/are nieve,

ignorant or taken advantage of when they join the military of any country. I was 18 when I joined the marines. I realized I had made a mistake too late. I spent the next 3 years trying to get out. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. Attempting to get out was more difficult thanbany bootcamp. I eventually got out and now I am here at DU adding my support to getting rid of the Bush administration. All life is important. Compassion will warm the soul whereas an eye for an eye and the "you got what you asked for attitude" will only lead to more killing.

[Kailassa]

91. But who are you asking for compassion from?

I have sons the same age as those soldiers, it breaks my heart to see anybody involved in this war. I've lobbied and petitioned to do what I can to have injured returning soldiers better looked after. But my feelings have nothing to do with the situation here. Actions bring consequences, and whether or not you were naive when you joined up, if you were part of an invading force in an illegal war, then anyone in that country had a right to try to kill you.

I'm very glad you survived it, and I hope you are not injured. But I would not be angry with an Iraqi even for killing my own sons if they were over there. And believe me, I love them dearly and couldn't bear anything to happen to them. Defending one's homeland is an act of courage, even if you have to be a guerilla and kill frightened 18 year olds to do it. That's not said to suggest you lack courage, I just know how courage comes and goes within any heart in that situation.

So please don't take my lack of loudly voiced outrage at the burnings or my defense of the Iraqis as an attack on you or anyone else who is or was there. We all make mistakes. I protested every chance there was before this war, to stop it happening, but when I saw the troops shipping off I wept for them. It was obvious most would be good-hearted naive kids who had no idea of the dreadful things in store for them, or the wicked motives behind the war.

The kids who could know, the politicians' sons and daughters, were not going near any war. Their fathers order kids off as a human sacrifice, then and make money from the deal to keep their own kids partying.

[go west young man]

105. Kailassa I was in from 85-88. I haven't been to Iraq. My point is

pretty simple though. We all make mistakes. I think we all understand the rules of war. The rhetoric statement that some people here seem to be putting forth. Is "you get what you ask for when you sign up". I think its a lot more complex than that. We shouldn't be saying "we'll what do you expect?' We should be saying how unfortunate and sad the whole affair is from invasion till now. Empathy and compassion will give us greater strength to deal with the right than anger and hostility.

[Kailassa]

110. Yes, if we can't feel for other people

and put ourselves in their shoes, we build walls around ourselves that block communication.

But my point is that we should be able to put ourselves in the shoes of those on every side in relation to Iraq. The soldiers need our support. I saw what happened when troops returned from Vietnam, and it broke many of them. But we need to understand what we have done to the Iraqis too, and not judge them for their retaliations.

The implication by some in this thread was that if you did not express outrage and disgust at what was done, you proved you did not care about the soldiers. It's sad when people can't see that both the troops and the Iraqis are victims here, and the Iraqis deserve our respect as well as our empathy, as they are defending their homeland.

[Dark]

79. One problem with your analogy.

Americans didn't 'break into' the country to kill people.

Contrary to what some 'progressives' think, American troops don't hunt civilians for fun. They're just there for (what they thought) was the liberation of Iraq. But that's gone to shit, and I think we need to get the fuck out NOW.

However, these people don't deserve to die simply because they're in Iraq. They're trying, in their own delusional way, to make things better.

Does that include killing Iraqis? Only if the Iraqis try to kill them.

I'm sorry, but as illegal as this war is, it's here, thanks to the idiots in the whitehouse, and we should try to make things better.

And, hey, if the Iraqis DON'T want to get killed, maybe they should stop shooting at American soldiers. Just a thought.

[Kailassa]

86. You need to look at what happened in Fallujah.

That is only one of a number of cities destroyed in revenge now, by the American military. You need to take another look at what happened in Abu Graib, to people who were picked up because they were near the houses of wanted men who were not there.

And how about watching some videos? :-)

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681952

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2682025

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681679

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2681660

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2680556

Sadly, having Iraqis stop defending their country doesn't help anyone, not even America. An easy win there just means America continues raping and pillaging any country its wealthy corporations want to loot. If you think the Iraqis should just sit back and take it, then I can't help wondering if you have any morals at all.

[Dark]

95. If you don't have a problem with people being burned alive, then

I can't help but wonder whether you have any morals at all.

The Iraqis are hurting themselves more than they are hurting us with this shit.

Roads, hospitals, schools, and yes oil pipelines, can't be rebuilt because of security reasons, namely they get blown up.

Secondly, acting like the few soldiers involved in Abu Ghraib decides the morality of an entire conflict is lunacy.

Fallujah was a terrorist breeding ground. It had to be taken for our soldier's security.

I'm not going to lie. Iraq is a shitstorm. There are some bad things that have happened, and there are some good things. But I hate it when people act like our soldiers are criminals. They're not.

The criminals aren't in Iraq. They're in Washington.

[Kailassa]

100. What an idiotic answer. Haven't you read my posts at all?

Remember the English SAS guys caught in Iraqi uniforms, in an Iraqi vehicle full of explosives? Do you know anything about America's employment of agent provocateurs in the past?

It suits Buschco fine to have civil war bubbling away in Iraq. He's determined to keep stealing their oil until it runs out, so he doesn't want things calm and peaceful there.

Abu Graib was a Sunni town, and the invasion and putting into power of a mainly Shiite gov't stirred them up, so they fought. If we had not been there, there would have been no "terrorists".

As for whether or not I care, read my other posts.

[rfkrfk]

46. what do mercs do?, I assume they are paid for scalps

not that that is a problem with me,
as their opponents are what I term 'guerillas',
and should be shot when captured

[Kailassa]

47. If I bring my Australian Army to America, bomb the White House,

kill 100.000 Americans, starve the population, ruin the economy and steal the oil, would you think any Americans who resisted my invasion were guerillas who deserved to be shot?

[rfkrfk]

50. depends, irregular forces have no 'Geneva Convention' status

as I understand it

[Kailassa]

53. And you think the attacking forces do?

There is no declared war in Iraq at the moment, so they don't.

However that is irrelevant to the question I asked you. You stated that Iraqis who were caught fighting the American forces in Iraq should be shot. I was asking you if you thought that the Americans in the example I gave deserved to be shot. This is a moral issue, not a legal one. Do you, or do you not, have the right to defend your home from an invader?

[rfkrfk]

54. are you alludeing to the {US} War of 1812 ?

when the British burned The US Executive Mansion,
now know as the White House.
Sorry, don't know if those were mercs, or not.

Or perhaps, the war of American Independence, circa 1775,
I would assume all sides had them.

That was long before the GC, so not sure how to answer.

This issue has nothing to do with 'declared war'
as the US broke diplomatic relations with Bagdad
in 1991, I think.

In a Commonwealth country, what does 'declaring war' imply?
Here in the US, 'declaring war', invokes certain domestic laws
involving, commandering ships, breaking contracts, and the like.

[Kailassa]

55. I was aluding to nothing, merely hypothesising a simple situation.

And you are avoiding the question.

[rfkrfk]

62. I didn't make the rules.

assuming the country of the combatants had
properly broken diplomatic relations,
they are entitiled to GC protection, for whatever that is worth.

irregulars, armed civilians, guarillas, partisans, whatever you call them,
have no status with the GC.

under the circumstances you describe, I an not sure if
I would join a partisan group, but the in-uniform enemy should
be treated as such, captured partisans now what to expect.

[Kailassa]

72. What do rules have to do with anything?

The great America these days just changes the rules to suit itself or ignores them. If rules are you're answer to everything, you can justify everything you choose to do, but that still does not make your actions moral.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

57. Would you bring beer?

Hold on.... I'm thinking.

[Kailassa]

67. If I did it would be Dutch. ;-)

You can't beat a bitter, thickly foaming Grolsch sucked from a chilled flip-top.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

43. risque du metier as the french would say.

invaders get killed...cry me a river :nopity:

Irak Invasion a war crime Stop

Participants Civilian Merc and Soldiers are participants in the war crime.


Ask yourself if someone handed you 1'000'000 $ to kill someone you don't know anything about would you do it?

If yes, you'd be a merc


Would you kill someone to avoid going to prison?

If yes you are a New American Soldier


How much does it take to buy your conscience?
How much are you willing to pay/sacrifice for your own conscience?

As far as i can tell with the Invasion pawns... the answer on both questions is "not all that much"

A cruel way to die yes but hey anyone down in Iraq has CHOSEN to do so! If you go to murder to avoid prison or to make a fortune you don't get one frigging ounce of empathy/pity from me!!!!!

[Disturbed]

51. Being burned alive no matter who this man was gets...

some sadnes from me. I don't feel that the US Troops or mercs should be in Iraq. It was an illegal Invasion and now an Occupation. Brutality is not condoned by me.

[teryang]

56. Deja vu

When I first read this post, I thought it was 2 years old.

[bemildred]

65. Moi aussi ... nt

[leftchick]

70. I did as well...

and the beat goes on....

[DeaconBlues]

98. the article is a year old

I think that many here are under the impression that this is a recent incident. It is not.


on edit: Ooops. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure is a helluva lot like the incident where 4 contractors were burnt and thier bodies hung on the bridge.

[Kailassa]

101. lol. You were not the first to think that. ;-)

[Barrett808]

102. I thought for sure it was the Fallujah incident, but no

This was on Sep 20, 2005, in Duluiya. Hard to believe, eh?

[leftchick]

71. This is un fucking real....

this article should be read by the asshats in congress who chirp: stay the course, more money, more troops.....

<snip>

But, as is so often the case, the attacker had vanished down one of Dour's maze-like alleys.

Instead the Americans were confronted with sullen Iraqis, holding their terrified children to their sides. An old woman sat on her bed, clutching her heart, as the soldiers interrogated the family.

"They heard nothing, they saw nothing, same as ******* usual," said Sgt Jody Miller. Taking another deep drag from his cigarette, he turned to the company's translator.

"Tell them to tell us where the bad guys are so we stop frigging shooting up their houses," he said.

Nobody was hurt but the mutual distrust between the Americans and the local community deepened just a little bit more.

[Barrett808]

74. It's worth noting that this is a Torriegraph story

I've noticed that UPI and the Telegraph have been turning in some really good reporting from Iraq, most of it flatly discouraging.

Why do they hate America?

[sunnystarr]

87. How sad for those men and their families

I can't help but think that once the Bush regime reaches their goal of privatizing the military then there won't be any death toll. We can have war without any casualties - they'll all be lumped into collateral damage.

[Kailassa]

94. What is the relative value of American and Iraqi lives?

1:1, 10:1, 10000:1?

How many dead Iraqis does it take to make you as sad as you feel over 1 dead American?

You might be sure at first that it's 1:1, but just think about it. Think about who really matters to you.

[go west young man]

117. Kailassa your assuming here. Maybe we feel just as much sympathy/

empathy for all people entangled in war. And not just this war. Worldwide. From Chechnya to East Timor. From Palestine/Israel to Tibet. A bit of compassion would do us all good.

[Kailassa]

123. Yes, compassion does us all good.

But when the compassion is expressed only toward our own, and the Iraqis are labelled as evil, the people who want to continue this war are given encouragement.

I'm a grandmother, I see these soldiers as children and cried when I read what had happened. But tears and condemnation are no help to anyone here. We need to show our compassion to the people of this country we have needlessly assaulted too.

Anger solves nothing, what we need is forgiveness. If we cannot forgive victims who have hit back, merely because it is our own they have had to hit back at, then we are guilty as aggressors too.