Polygamous Community Defies State Crackdown

[Judi Lynn]

Polygamous Community Defies State Crackdown

By TIMOTHY EGAN
Published: October 25, 2005
COLORADO CITY, Ariz., Oct. 19 - One year ago, Arizona authorities set up shop in a double-wide trailer here at the edge of the nation's largest polygamous community, trying to bring at least a semblance of secular law to an American small town like no other.

Theirs was the first independent government presence in half a century at this settlement straddling the Arizona-Utah border, a place frozen in a 19th-century frontier theocracy inspired by the early Mormon Church.

But the twin towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, continue to defy the law, the authorities and dissidents say: under the direction of leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, women are still being removed from their husbands and assigned to other men, and girls under 18 are ordered to become brides of older men on a day's notice, all despite the presence of full-time outside law enforcement.
(snip)

Mr. Goddard has also moved to put the school district in receivership. Five years ago, church leaders ordered all families to withdraw their children from the one big public school here, kindergarten through high school, in favor of home schooling or church schools. The public school instantly lost about 1,000 students, more than two-thirds of enrollment. Yet the church, whose followers account for a majority of the voters, continues to control the school board and - until recent legal action by Mr. Goddard - the school purse strings, which are now frozen.

Mr. Goddard said that while teachers had gone weeks without pay, church officials in control of the district had used public education money to buy a $200,000 airplane and had funneled school funds and property to the church. They also have an administrative staff of 23 people, compared with 6 at other school districts of the same size, he wrote in a report to the Arizona Education Department.
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/national/25polygamy.html

[zanne]

1. Religious "freedom" in action.

So I guess if you belong to a religion you can give your daughters away to some guy, but if you're gay, you can't marry.

[Ravenseye]

14. Hey the Bible says you can have slaves and sell your daughters

Hell you can sell your daughter INTO slavery and the Bible is fine with it.

[jazzjunkysue]

32. How much do you think I can get for mine?

[gorbal]

40. Wikipedia has a great descrition

"The Church believes a man must marry at least three women to enter heaven. The sect appeared to be in turmoil in June 2005, after reports it had excommunicated between 400 and 1000 young males in order to make more young women available to older men. Its assets were frozen and a warrant issued in Arizona on Friday 10th June 2005 for the arrest of its leader, Warren Jeffs, for arranging a wedding between an underage girl and a 28-year-old man who was already married."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLDS

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Cut their welfare payments and improve education for the girls.

And of course, enfore the statutory rape laws. If you put the viejo verdes in jail, they'll only have themselves to marry.

[jody]

3. Don't we send foreign aid to countries that do much worst things? n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Yes, but in America we kick poor people out of public housing for smoking

a joint. In some states, we tag them with a felony on their record for a bag of pot. Therefore, for law enforcement to do SHIT while minors are forced into marriage and statutorily raped while people in the town right next door are forced to register as sex offenders for the same thing is a bit, shall we say, uneven.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Thanks for making that point.It's hard to avoid when you've spelled it out

so clearly.

Apparently laws are for "lesser" beings.

[warrens]

20. I was called for jury duty just before Xmas last year

The case was a woman who was going to be evicted because her son, who was 17, was caught with a vial of crack. Five miles from the apartment. She hadn't done a thing. He was not smoking crack or dealing from the house. I was sitting there with my mouth open and was asked, could you vote to evict her if this case is proved? I said, hell no, this isn't the America I believe in. I can't believe an asinine law like this is even on the books. I can't believe someone could be evicted at Xmas for something she had nothing to do with. Evict the kid, maybe, but this is nonsense.

Needless to say, I didn't get picked, but I sure as hell gave those who did something to think about.

[jody]

25. You should have said I'll consider all the facts and voted not guilty.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

90. This isn't another country, this is the USA

And it's American citizens -- mainly minors -- who are being treated like chattel. Literally.

[NaturalHigh]

4. I've been reading quite a bit about these people lately.

In fact, my wife just ordered a book about them for me. These people are dangerous. The next "Waco" incident will involve these people.

[Bloodblister Bob]

7. Should the US launch pre-emptive strikes against polygamists? n/t

[NaturalHigh]

8. No, but we should be prepared for trouble from these people.

They've built a huge compound in Eldorado, Texas, where they're planning to be ready for the end of the world. If the time comes when a law enforcement agency has to go inside to serve a warrant or make an arrest or investigate the child abuse that is commplace among the FLDS people, things are going to get ugly in a hurry.

[400Years]

13. I say leave them alone

you don't want the ATF murdering people for polygamy.

[MountainLaurel]

17. It's not the polygamy that's the primary issue

It's the child rape: Most of these girls are younger than 15 when they're "married" off to much, much older men (only the leaders of the community get more wives), who typically are their relatives. (People who have left the group say that there's a major problem with infant mortality and stillbirths because of problems caused by inbreeding.)

Child abandonment is another issue: Because only a few of the men are allowed to have wives, often sons who are not of that inner circle are forced to leave the community in their teens. These youths have had no substantive education and no concept of what the outside world is like. Yet, there have been numerous articles about how they're driven to a nearby town and dropped off with a small amount of money and some clean clothes.

And as someone mentioned upthread, these folks are creating another Waco: stocking up on munitions and preparing for the end of the world.

[Javaman]

28. These fringe "religious" groups seem like nothing more than

old men wanting young women aka pedophiles.

[MountainLaurel]

30. Ding, ding, ding

If you look at the history of mainstream Mormonism, the founder got a message from God about the need to have multiple wives right after his wife caught him schtupping someone else.

[northzax]

72. it's funny (strange, not haha) isn't it

that all the whacko sects, founded by men, can't seem to agree on anything but polygamy and forced marriage of young girls to old men? it's the one constant, it seems...if two or more adult women want to cohabitate with one (or more) men and get married in a religious ceremony, that's their problem, but children cannot be forced, or even talked, into it.

[gorbal]

39. Out of a group of about 10,000-1,000 boys kicked out

"Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.

Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1505997,00.html

[LisaM]

50. They also basically steal government money

even though they consider a man to have three or more wives, our laws don't. So "wives" 2-50 are considered single mothers and collect welfare. This is a major source of income for these families.

[Realityhack]

51. Thats not really all that important.

Frankly I don't even care about it. Its perfectly leagal to have multiple lovers and for them to raise your children if they so chose.

Rape, child abuse, statutory rape, cult indocrination, child abandoment, consiracy to obstruct justice... etc... etc. On the other hand I DO care about. They are VERY serious crimes. Even if you do care about that welfare money you need to consier two things. One - asuming they are obaying the pertanant welfare laws (which I doubt) the kids would still be screwed without that money. and two - there are much bigger fish to fry.

[LisaM]

52. It's important to me when RWers denigrate others who are on welfare

and really need it to let this horrible big repressive church CHEAT the system on purpose.

[Realityhack]

55. Huh?

Ok I hate pepole who degenerate those on welfare who need it as well...

But I am VERY leary of any attempt to charge them with cheating welfare unless the broke specific rules like mis-stating their income (bet the did but thats a diffrent discussion). If I go 'knock up' 6 girls today... and they decide to rais the children should they loose welfare because I am 'cheating the system'. I know they are gameing the system but I don't think that is automaticaly a crime. If they qualified then the children would be living in poverty on top of everything else being done to them... and the boys would likely be abandoned even earlier.

Frankly unless they can show some violation of the rules I would preffer they shut up about the welfare least we get the M$M thinking there is widespread abuse again and tons of people who need welfare are thrown off it.
Besides which there are as I said much biger fish to fry.

[LisaM]

86. If you read the book "Under the Banner of Heaven"

you can see it described more elegantly than I am doing. It's a purposeful means of getting income; it has nothing to do with what is good for the children. In fact, I doubt if the money goes directly to anything for the children at all.

[LostinVA]

91. They call it "Bleeding the Beast"

And do it purposely to bankrupt the government, thus taking money from people who need it. These people do NOT need it -- the majority live very well, in McMansions, and make scads of money. The man has, say, one legal wife who he claims on taxes, and may have 10 other wives who have 50 kids all together... they6 ALL get welfare, food stamps, etc., that the man uses however he wants... it's sick, and an abuse of the system, and literally takes food out of the mouths of people who need it.

[Realityhack]

95. I know they do it on purpose...

my point is I would rather concentrate on other offenses unless they can be shown to be actualy violating current welfare laws.

If the guy has several wives living in mcmansions then there is a vertual certainty they are violating existing welfare laws.

If however they are not breaking any laws (ie just gameing the system) I think we should think VERY VERY carefuly before we try to prosocute them or close any loopholes so we don't accidentaly screw a MUCH larger group of people who desprately need the money.

I still say there are MUCH larger issues that take precidence over the welfare gameing/fraud

I also wory about spending too much time on the welfare aspect as this is a very small group of people (when you take into account the size of welfare) and the last time someone started talking about welfare 'queins' poor people got screwed really bad.

Besides which welfare fraud palls in compairison to conspiracy to commit child rape and many of the other alligations.

[happyslug]

94. Rape, child abuse, statutory rape, etc are hard to prove

It is a lot easier to prove multiple marriages to "adultery". In many ways the main reason Adultery and the ban on multiple wives developed seems to be to do the problems of PROVING "Rape, child abuse, statutory rape, cult indoctrination, child abandonment, conspiracy to obstruct justice... etc... etc.". A lot of "Stupid" laws have been passed that forbids something that appears innocuous but is easy to find "facts" to "prove" when the main thrust of such laws is to prevent what is much harder to prove i.e. "Rape, child abuse, statutory rape, cult indoctrination, child abandonment, conspiracy to obstruct justice... etc... etc."

Some examples: The law ASSUMES you are a deserter from the Military UNLESS you have your discharge papers on you. This was adopted for it was easy to prove someone enlisted but hard to prove he had NOT been discharged. Thus the government made it easier to prove desertion by forcing ex-soldiers to prove their had been discharged.

Prior to the 1960s the Catholic Church had a policy that if a Priest had ANYONE in his private quarters it was treated the same as if he had sex with that person. The reason for this was it was easy to show someone was in that part of the Priest Quarters but almost impossible to prove their had sex. The dropping of this rule was one of the causes that lead to the pedophile cases of the 1980s and 1990s (Through the main reason seems to be Bishops not wanting to crack down on their friends, that is one of the hardest thing to do discipline one of your friends).

An old set of laws (Which appear to be in revival now) is the assumption that is a Criminal was in your house, you were aiding and abetting him (Burden was on the homeowner to show otherwise). Just some examples of such laws, stupid on their face, but easier to prove than the real crime.

[Realityhack]

102. I totaly dissagree.

First off I think it would be retarded to outlaw adultery. Proving multiple wives when you permit adultary is just frikin imposible.
Proving child rape or child abuse is hard but doable.

Any those laws you sited werent 'stupid' the actualy are just plain stupid.

The FACT is that our criminal justice system is suposed to be based on an inoccent untill proven guilty concept not the other way around. If criminals get off because we can't prove they commited a crime that is acceptible to get the benifit of not sending the innocent to jail. The idea for instance that if a criminal was in your house you were aiding and abetting him unless you prove otherwise is the exact oposite of innocent untill proven guilty and is IMO fascist.

Sorry but I don't think sending the innocent to jail is a good idea. I guess you do because it is the automatic, inevitable result of such guilty unless you can prove otherwise laws.

Outlawing adultery would be IMO totaly unconstituional and would have massive selective enforcement issues anyway.

[happyslug]

104. I did NOT say to outlaw Adultery, but that it was often used to prevent.

I did NOT say to outlaw Adultery, but that it was often used to prevent other Crimes that cold NOT be proved beyond a reasonable Doubt. It was a lot easier to prove someone had committed adultery (and there were some very simple test that "proved" it for example two married people being together alone etc.) than that two people had had sex.

Anyone, my point was that sometimes laws that on their surface appear "silly" to us, were design to prevent the harms mentioned in the original Article. Thus Adultery was rarely prosecuted unless they was evidence of something else that could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Classic case of such use of one law that was provable to punish people for other crimes can be seen in the Comparisons between Allied and German Desertion cases during WWII that ended in execution. Some what like 10 people on the allied side were executed while over 2,000 Germans were executed. The reason for the difference was under German Military Law it was easier and quicker to execute someone for Desertion than the Crimes often associated with Desertion (Rape and Murder). In the allied cases it was easier to execute for Rape and Murder than Desertion. Now Desertion was abused (and in the Case of the Germans used not only to keep Germans in the German Army but the Various conscripts from the Occupied territories in the German Army).

My point was that provable but comparably minor crimes were often used to prevent and punish people for crimes related to the minor crime but hard to prove. Such provable but secondary crimes are often abused and was the chief reason most have been abolished (As in the case of Adultery in most states) but then you have to find out a way to PROVE the crimes mentioned in the Article (All of which are almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt EVEN if the victim is willing to testify). The later crimes are quite hard to prove and almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and thus you have the abuse that is mentioned in the Original Article.

[dryan]

107. The total scam...

the county that Colorado City is in has the highest percentage of people on welfare because the women in plural marriages are not "legally" married so they are allowed to collect welfare and aid to dependent children.

[LostinVA]

19. This has nothing to do with regular polygamy

This si child rape, abuse, INCEST (marrying 12-year-old girls to uncles, etc.), kicking someone out of their house and taking their wives and children away because they piss you off, annually driving out the majority of young men (16-25)onto the streets so there's no competition for the older favorite men to get their underage brides, sucking up untold millions in welfare and food stamps purposely to "Bleed the Beast" (while they live in McMansions), having the mayor and the frigging local POLICE also be part of this cult and thus not protect children.

These aren't polygamists.... they are child rapists. Sickening. They've been doing this for close to a century and need to be controlled ASAP. They have ruined enough lives.

[Realityhack]

47. Did you bother to read the original post???

"and girls under 18 are ordered to become brides of older men"
Or is that just peachy keen with you?

Child abuse aligations and serving warrents is serious buissness... we just going to give up on enforcing those on anyone who gathers enough followers and guns?

Sure the ATF and FBI etc have fucked up a lot of times... but that is no excues for saying forget it and letting everything go as long as a group chooses to fortify itself.

[Raster]

49. "murdering"?

on edit: I can't believe you would have the gall to suggest they be left alone to continue using and abusing children.

[Zenlitened]

70. No, I want a jury to lock them up for child rape.

[400Years]

83. fine by me if that is actually going on

If a child has actually been raped then charge them with rape but I have my doubts about the truth to anything the NYT reports. WMDs? I wouldn't be surprised if this article is overhyped to make it sound worse than it is. I don't want to see another Waco.

There is a movie called Waco: The Rules of Engagement. It's worth checking out.

[LostinVA]

87. This IS going on, and has been documented for literally decades

The Utah and Arizona authorities have allowed it to continue. They only tried to take care of it once, in the 50's, but wimped out. This article is not making it sound worse than it is.... if anything, it's not horrific enough. This is not some scam invented by the NYT, 400Years! This is a well-known, well-documented, abusive cult. They have "branches" in several US and BC locations.

[Zenlitened]

92. Yes, and we need further study about global warming, too.

:eyes:

[Realityhack]

103. You are entitled to your opinion but its wrong.

sorry but this is fairly well documented and has been for some time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. No but for the US AG and his predecessor to do nothing

while teenage girls are taken from one adult male and forced to marry another adult male is nothing short of criminal. This story is not new...meanwhile Asscrack was cracking down on prostitution in New Orleans and Gonzales has done nothing...somehow they seem to have enough time to use the patriot act to harass people for expressing dissent.

[jwirr]

35. Hey most of these guys are repugs - of course, bushie

has not cracked down on them. Also the mormon churh has been doing its best to convince people that they are a mainstream Christian religion. Bull.

[Realityhack]

48. Diffrent sect.

These are not the Mormons... just a small breakaway group.
Don't know if you knew but it shold be clarified... otherwise its like saying because some wako millita in wherever claims to be roman catholic the roman catholic church is involved/tainted/whatever.

[jwirr]

68. Yes I knew they were the breakaway group. My point was that

they are all repugs with their cheating on welfare to break it and all. My own church is most repubs too, so it is not so strange. I do worry about what happens when some administration in the future tries to go in there and enforce the law.

[kestrel91316]

74. (....well they're certainly not Democrats!)

[ImpeachBush]

23. Not dangerous to the rest of the world, really ...

Just dangerous to their children and the women they hold captive. Utah has nearly always looked the other way because of the roots of the LDS church AND because the LDS church believes that, one day, polygamy will once again be permitted in THEIR church. There was some nasty stuff that happened long ago when Utah tried to crack down and began prosecuting polygamists (I can't remember how long ago that was - I've just read about it). The state was embarrased and decided not to try to enforce the penalties for breaking polygamy laws. They just turn their heads until forced to take action.

There have been several very serious situations with these kinds of cults in Northern Utah (Kingston clan). When a young woman (something like 14 or 15 years of age) turned up on a farm nearly beaten to death by her father for refusing to wed her uncle, they were forced to take some action. Some of the Kingston yahoos ended up in prison, but the clan continues to operate. The Kingstons are a very wealthy "family" cult - they've got their own lawyers as members of the family - and they make tons of money in business operations, (I think one business is in garbage collection and disposal). Plus, they abuse welfare dollars - because they are not legally married to their many wives, the children and wives collect money from the government as single parents raising LOTS of kids. The Kingstons are not alone in their odd beliefs (blood must marry blood - lots of genetic problems, as you can imagine), and the children are the real victims.

I guess my point is that these groups are not trying to take over the world, they do not wish to blow anyone up or anything like that. But the young innocents that are forceably kept in the cult because they are children and have no say in the world are seriously at risk - and we all know that not many people really give a damn about the young innocents, unfortunately.

If you really wish to contribute and help the victims of this sort of thing, there are groups out there that need all the help they can get. I can't remember the full name, but there is a group of women, centered somewhere in Utah called Tapestry of (something - I can't remember what the rest of the name is) - former polygamist wives and children that have escaped their cults. I'm sure they could use any financial support any of you would be willing to offer. Or visit http://www.anti-polygamy.org/

[Javaman]

29. This reminds me of the famous episode of the X-Files...

Where Scully and Mulder had to investigate the disappearance of someone and stumbled upon a family of inbreds. Scary to say the least. The episode apparently didn't repeat till years later because it was so disturbing.

[MountainLaurel]

31. I remember that one

I was watching the beginning, knowing the basic premise, chanting "Please don't let them be in West Virginia. please don't let them be in West Virginia" (the state has enough problems with a rep for inbreeding). I was getting concerned because they mentioned the Pittsburgh field office (of the FBI) and driving on Route 119, which leads from Pittsburgh into WV. As it turned out, the location of the family was in the Pennsyltucky side of 119.

[anitar1]

33. One reason the LDS set up the geneology

search site was because of the dangers of too much inbreeding.It has become a wonderful resource for those trying to trace their family tree. Obviously the pologamists do not follow these rules.

[Realityhack]

42. I suspect you are misinformed on that.

Do you have a reliable sorce you can site?

I don't agree with the mormons and I know they have done some stupid things... but they also have some extreamist oponents and that smells like propoganda to me.

If I am wrong I would be interested to see the evidence though.

[LiviaOlivia]

53. Wrong and racist.

It was set up for baptism of the dead by proxy. Families are considered "eternal" and the highest level of "heaven" i.e. "celestial" is more perfect with all the family.

[Realityhack]

54. Yep.

Still kindof interested where he got his 'information'. I hope he will still tell us now that you let the facts out...

Stop confusing people with the facts!

[kestrel91316]

75. Yep. And they got in some big trouble with the Jewish community

several years ago for baptising dead JEWS into the MORMON church without the knowledge or consent of their next-of-kin.

Hell, they probably have done my DAD. Creeps.

[LostinVA]

82. They still ARE baptizing dead Jews

Including Anne Frank. They haven't stopped the practice.

[Ferret Annica]

78. You are correct that genealogy was set up for proxy baptisms,

but I fail to see where the comment concerning inbreeding had racist connotations. The proxy baptisms are to give those who passed on the option to become of this faith.

Mormons believe that individual ability to choose continues beyond the grave. However many - particularly Jews - feel proxy baptisms constitutes a denial of the baptism that already took place.

Mormons agreed to stop proxy baptisms of Jews in 1995, but still have raised concerns by funding the preservation - at 10 cents a sheet - of thousands of names of dead Russian Orthodox Church members to effect baptism of them by proxy.

"Obviously we can't approve the practice, it takes away the most essential gift God has given people, their freedom," said the spokesman for the patriarchal parish of the Russian Orthodox Church in the United States.

"It turns religion into magic," continued Father Joseph, a hieromonk who does not use his last name and is secretary to the administrator of the parish, St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Cathedral in New York.

Proxy baptism is an arcane practice that helps strain the credibility of the LDS Church as an organization that respects other faiths as their peer in religion expression in any way.

[fishwax]

98. racist?

I mean, it's definitely wrong, but I'm curious how it's racist :shrug:

[Javaman]

27. I was thinking the very same thing...

This has Waco written all over it. Give it time, the feds will move in with tanks soon.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. I recently read a book...

Regarding the right-wing whackos who killed Alab Berg, the Denver talk show host and pulled off a string of armored car robberies. The book is relatively old, called "The Silent Brotherhood". These guys and their also-rans in the neo-nazi movement were converting to just this kind of Mormonism for the purpose of, largely, poligamy. The expenditures of education money, the penchant for these remote locations, the marraige cuteness, the whole thing sounds like a natural progression from the days of the Bruders Schweigen.

If any government agency, at any level, decides to go in there and root these guys out, I predict a confrontation on the level of Waco or worse. These are the kind of people who would welcome such a thing and you can bet they are armed to the teeth and beyond. The "Fundamental Mormonism" is just a front, a convenient religion for people who, I am sure, have used the phrase "Aryan Warriors" more than once.

[LiberalEsto]

6. What if your religion told you to murder someone?

Or bomb something?
Or start a Holy War against some other faith?

Hiding behind religion is no excuse whatsoever for child rape, incest, or bigamy/polygamy.

The law is the law, and I thought the US was supposed to live under the rule of law.

These troglodytes belong in jail.

[Ravenseye]

16. Pfff When has a religion told anyone to murder people???

Please, Christianity is a religion of peace, when has it ever purposely harmed anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

ok other than that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition

or that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_alexandria#Destruction_of_the_pagan_temples_by_Theophilus

Oh come on that was like 1500 years ago!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_slavery#Bible_quotations_on_the_keeping_of_slaves

Ok fine I give up.

[MountainLaurel]

18. Bwaaah!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Realityhack]

46. I think you forgot

about 1/2 of the book they base it all on ;-)
Go kill them... wait no them... now them... aw fuck I'll just kill them all myself.

[VelmaD]

10. Yet again they get it wrong...it's not polygamy...

it's polygyny.

Polygamy means having more than one spouse...it does not specify of which gender.

More than one wife = polygyny.

More than one husband = polyandry.

[geniph]

37. Velma, you and I fight this battle alone

I notice you're as annoyed by the misuse of the term polygamy meaning polygyny as I am. We seem to be alone in this. ;-)

[Realityhack]

43. Excelent point.

And a very important one. For a bunch of 'information' organizations M$M sure loves to disreguard the meaning of words.

[MountainLaurel]

85. I'm with both of you

Being a word geek (spent 10 years as an editor), this one bothers me too.

[NashVegas]

105. Considering That Some of the Wives Are Re-assigned

It does look like polygamy, indeed.

[Solly Mack]

12. Why can't they charge them for misappropriation of funds?

regarding the public school funds (airplane &school funds/property to the church)?

[madmark]

21. They are

[noonwitch]

22. They need to let them live how they want, but tax them according to law

Only one wife gets considered for tax purposes. The man only gets to claim a certain number of children for his taxes.

They can live what they consider to be God's law daily, but the IRS only recognizes US law.

[Chovexani]

24. Fuck "God's law", they are breaking all kinds of real, actual laws

Like, you know, the ones that say grown men can't sleep with their 12 year old nieces.

These people aren't just harmless old kooks, there is a fair amount of child abuse going on in this cult. Not to mention child abandonment (expelling teen boys from the cult and just leaving them on the street to fend for themselves so they aren't competition for "wives").

They need to round these bastards up and let them rot in prison. The only problem with that is they're probably just itching for a confrontation with the Feds so they can go out Waco-style.

[LostinVA]

26. Only one wife CAN be claimed

The rest? WELFARE and FOOD STAMPS, while they all live in huge houses.

[madmark]

34. Their raison d'etre is to coerce female children

into marriages and child birth prior to them reaching the age of 18. If they were just marrying and banging 18 year olds it would be a different story, but they are not.

[geniph]

38. They're disobeying laws not just regarding bigamy,

but also laws against statutory rape and outright rape, and laws against marrying first cousins and other close relatives. They're also practicing child abandonment with the boys and practicing domestic abuse against the women and children on a very wide scale.

This is the same cult of kooks that Krakauer wrote about in Under the Banner of Heaven.

[Realityhack]

44. Way Way off base.

We are not talking about concenting adults here... we are talking about cult activities including criminal conspericy to rape.

If it were just a bunch of consenting adults it actualy WOULD be legal as long as, as you say, they did not claim the rights of married couples for more than one wife.

But if you read a bit about it we are talking WAY WAY more than that.

[Realityhack]

45. BTW I think you might owe the victems and appology.

From the section of the article posted in the original post:
"and girls under 18 are ordered to become brides of older men"

[Megahurtz]

36. These pedophiles just want to perv "legally"

"in the Name of God". (So they think):puke:

These women and girls (and boys for that matter too) need to kick some ass.

I would just as soon see all of these guys as eunuchs and put to hard labor as their payback.:evilfrown:

[olddad56]

41. What is this world coming to when you can't even have many wives?

[Ferret Annica]

56. Here is a link to the Rickross.com database's resources concerning Mormons

http://rickross.com/groups/mormon.html

This site has a great deal opf information that helps build a base of understanding about these dangerous people.

[Realityhack]

57. Propoganda

thats a propoganda site.
In addition it relates to a diffrent church than the one being discussed.

[Ferret Annica]

58. Wrong, those are links to news stories and other information

not associated with Rick Ross' site. And to understand the cult the larger Mormon church is and how it operates is to understand the mindset and operations of this splinter group.

[LiviaOlivia]

59. Wrong. Read John Dougherty

In the Phoenix "New Times". The man and the paper have been on this story for years. They deserve a Pulitzer, IMHO.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/special_reports/polygamy/index.html

[Ferret Annica]

64. Excellent link

Thank you most kindly.

[Realityhack]

60. No.

actualy its a collection of links to universaly negative articles etc.

Thats propoganda.

[Ferret Annica]

63. You are given the articles to make up your own mind on a cult

that has the money and political influence to warp he news media in it's favor. I've seen how the SL Tribune and Deseret News treat the Mormons with kid's gloves because they were in a position where they saw impartiality as being dangerous.

The Ross link has the Mormon's homepage hot linked to it, and one need not look far to see propaganda that whitewashes who and what the Mormon cult actually is.

Thank you for your opinion, but it does not resonate with mine.

[Realityhack]

62. Oh and as for the splinter group...

Claiming what you say about understanding the larger church is to understand the splinter group is like clamming that understanding christians is to understand hitller.

I don't agree with everything the mormons do or their beleifs but slamming them because of a tiny cult group that clams affiliation is frankly stupid.

[Ferret Annica]

65. Mormons only ditched polygamy to make Utah a state.

They still have much in common with this splinter group in terms of a common background and how they approach doing things and why.

As for your curious analogy concerning German Nazis and Christians generically you are being disingenuous. German Nazis grew their brand of fascism quite independently from Christian teachings in general, and they did not emanate from the same place Christianity historically came from.

[LiviaOlivia]

66. The Mormon Church banned polygamy in 1890.

Mormons were raped, lynched and murdered by so-called Christians and Mormon haters. This is documented fact.

Mormons were and are Americans. They should not be lumped into a group just like Jews and Muslims should not be assumed to be all Lukid members or Al-Qaeda members. And so the politics of Orin Hatch are not the politics of all Mormons.

There is a great book out of University of North Carolina Press about the seating of the first Senator from Utah, Reed Smoot. The time frame is 1901-1907. It is titled "The Politics of American Religious Identity" by Kathleen Flake. READ IT.

There is a lot of ignorant shit being posted on this board. Read up people.

[Ferret Annica]

67. I don't lump all Mormons together

or I would be hating my brother who fell for the Mormon con that has zero archaeological evidence Joseph Smiths fantasy of a Book of Mormon has any basis in fact.

I was in the Utah National Guard while in the Special Forces National Guard there in that state. My opinion is based on my education concerning that faith, and personal experiances with how people are as people under the aupices of that religion. I do differentiate between the con job the theology of that organization is from th good people who for what ever reason have an investment in what is still a toxic cult.

I have taken the time and effort to understand the LDS organization, and do not like it, trust it, or wish it a long prosperous life as a religion.

That my dear woman is my opinion. I am sorry you do not like it, but it will not change any time soon, and I will continue to not make religion the basis for friendships and associations based on another's religion.

Even if it is the LDS Church. The LDS church has a Constitutional right to exist and flourish. I'll gladly defend that, bit not much else in regard to that faith.

Thank you for your opinion however.

link to the History of Polygamy in Utah:
http://www.onlineutah.com/polygamyhistoryembry.shtml

[LiviaOlivia]

71. Well the break off, fundie groups in Colorado City, Az

and across the state line in Utah have been condemned by the "official church". If you are saying otherwise please post your source.

And you totally misread my previous post.

[Ferret Annica]

73. So what if they broke off and are condemned by

"the official church?" My point was merely one can learn allot about this group by looking at the LDS church. Obviously the LDS church is in no way associated with these people. and you mis-read me and my words to infer I feel they are affiliated. I am merely saying you get an interesting perspective looking at both and comparing them given their common histories.

I also did not sanction nor support the historic violence against Mormons committed by Fundies. For that matter, I am also in no way a Christian, not a Muslim or Jewish. And I am aware Mormon missionaries face threats of violence in some countries merely because in those places they are perceived as an American church in places hungry for American targets to bash.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I did see that and even know of the book and the events it covers.

[LiviaOlivia]

77. Thanks for the response

I didn't see "your" point in your previous posts. Clarification is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Sorry but I don't care about your religion or lack thereof; it's none of my concern. I do care about history and liberalism.

[Ferret Annica]

79. Not a problem

and as you see by a post I just made concerning proxy baptism I can be as distrustful of the LDS church as I am of the Christian faith.

I do think it is interesting that in my defense of the Constitution I am obliged to defend the LDS right to exist and flourish, but all in all, despite it's problems I do not think of the LDS Church as a threat to worry about.

I have more faith in what is actually the truth to worry that any of mankind's faith can damage or destroy it. Truth maintains a check and balance on just how far people can go with any faith mankind has invented to try to explain and have hope for a hear after.

[LostinVA]

88. Ferret is right to an extent

The Book "under the Banner of Heaven" makes this point: that the splinter groups have flourished because of aspects of the origins of the LDS church, and because the LDS leadership has turned a blind eye to alot of the LDS Fundie hijinks. Sometimes not even a blind eye, but tacit support. It's a good book.

[kestrel91316]

76. The Mormon church did WAY more than its fair share of

murdering back in the day............

My g-g-g-grandfather, William Adams Hickman, was Chief of the Danites and Brigham Young's right hand when it came to enforcing early church law - generally by ensuring that the only out for dissidents was "6 feet under". He was one of the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

He was richly rewarded with wives and money, but eventually developed a conscience and went to the Feds with his tale, and Brigham and Co got indicted on multiple counts of murder. Case got thrown out due to a SCOTUS decision regarding grand jury empanelment, and they could never get them re-indicted. My ancestor spent the rest of his life running from the Mormons, and published his autobiography in the 1880s.

The Mormon Church has LOTS of blood on its hands, and can't go pointing fingers at anybody. THAT is the sort of church these Mormon Fundamentalists arose from. Anything but clean.

[LiviaOlivia]

81. So what do you propose?

A war crimes or human rights tribunal? Or something along that line? And will that include all Mormons? A collective payback?

A trial was held concerning Mt Meadows ending with the death sentences. Please provide me links about trials in Ohio, Illinois and Missouri.

[kestrel91316]

84. A good start would be for the Mormon Church to OPEN

its archives to ALL RESEARCHERS. I have no doubt whatsoever that they are holding my g-g-g-grandfather's journal, the primary source material for his autobiography, along with vast numbers of other important documents. They just love to get their hands on damning material and it them away forever, so they can deny what happened.

Openness, truth, and honesty would go a long way toward helping their public image. But that will never happen. This particular brand of religious fascists is incapable of it.

If you want to cite something specific in "Ohio, Illinois and Missouri" I suggest that YOU find the links. That's YOUR issue. Don't expect others to do your homework.

Oh, and if you think the Mormons are squeaky clean these days, you might want to read up on the "Sunday Closing Law" in Utah in the early 70s. They can't seem to refrain from theocracy.

[ImpeachBush]

108. I enjoyed your comments

And the historical information about your ancestors.

I lived in Utah for 25+ years, and I can tell you that there's a lot of truth in your comments. The LDS church does have blood on their hands - and the Mountain Meadows Massacre is just one incident (which is still not completely resolved - The real perpetrators were never brought to justice - just a few scapegoats were punished, and the church leadership walked away unscathed).

And it is SO true that the LDS church looks for evidence that would embarass the church and hides what it can from public view. That's why Mark Hoffman got away with bilking their church for tons of money by selling them outrageous (and mostly fake) documents from the church's early days - documents about magic salamanders and such - the church wasn't concerned about their authenticity, they just want to hide whatever makes them look ridiculous.

And I do know that current LDS members look forward to the day when polygamy will once again be sanctioned by their church. They believe it is a foundation of their church and that these current rules of the church will one day be overturned. In the meantime, its all about image.

Yes, the founders of the church were treated badly in NY, Ohio, Missouri, etc. They were looking for lands on which to establish their way of life on a large scale - to usurp the current laws and traditions and become a theocratic society wherever they settled. They went from area to area and attempted to gain prominence in the communities and local government establishments. I won't go so far as to say the treatment of the LDS was proper or justified, but after living in Utah for 25+ years, I know how dominating that church is today in the part of the country they settled. If people hadn't forced them out of NY, that state's culture would resemble the Utah way of life as it is today - one religion dictating to its state's citizens how they should conduct their lives.

That's how they do things in Utah. The only thing I disliked about Utah (besides the miserably long, cold winters), was the influence the church held over everything there.

[fishwax]

97. in 1890 as part of the drive for statehood

the territory had been refused statehood several times, with polygamy being one of the sticking points. So, yeah, even though it was six years before statehood, the two were connected. The federal government also required that the polygamy ban be written into the state constitution.

[olddad56]

61. Some of these people belong in politcial office under Bush...

They are that fucked up.

[Zenlitened]

69. Women (and girls) as property. Same old fundie story.

:puke:

[madmark]

80. Polygamy is not even a good word to describe what the FLDS does.

The older sexually predate on the minor females and actually kick the young males out of town to eliminate the sexual competition. Its inter-generational abuse on a grand scale. The concept of people having multiple spouses is almost tangential to the child abuse. Hence use of the term polygamy obfuscates whats going on.

[LostinVA]

89. And incest, and trading wives & children from one man to another

It's crazy -- something that the Taliban might even think is kinda weird.

[DiverDave]

93. Once again we see that if you abuse a child

nothing happens.

They all need to be SHOT.
Those kids are going to be dealing with this shit FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!

Some my just take their life...big whoop to all you people arguing fine points of sicko mormen law.

I know a bit about abused kids... I WAS ONE.

So get off your high goddamned horses and realize that these sick fucks need to be STOPPED before more kids get raped and tortured.

I vote to send in the goddamned TANKS and clean this up.

edited to add more disdain.

[LostinVA]

100. Excuse me? WTF are you yelling at me?

I'm not on any "goddamn high horse," if you actually took time to read my post. I said, and have said so many times on this and other threads, that they are sick fucks who should be arrested.

God -- maybe you should go back and actually read my post, DiverDave.

[liberalpragmatist]

99. This is weird even by most historical measures

Even most polygamous societies weren't this out-there. I read this and was totally shocked. I knew there were rogue polygamous communities, but I had no idea how bad it was. The whole "trading" and "assigning" of wives is totally bizarre. More like "The Handmaid's Tale" than anything else.

[LostinVA]

101. This group has been doing it for decades

They purposely went to Colorado City because it's so isolated, and then later to Bountiful, BC.

[happydreams]

96. Polygamy is about male domination.

Women are basically chattel in that system.

[dryan]

106. Read the whole....

story in the fantastic book Under the Banner of Heaven.

[gorbal]

109. This seems like a microcosm of what is going on in the US today...

Perhaps an extreem example, but think about it; All those young men either locked up in prison or going off to war while the number of pregnant single mothers (Mostly by older men) skyrockets. Meanwhile at least a third of the country is hypnotised by their religious and political leaders into rejecting anyone who speaks up against them. (even some of you guys, lol)