Too fat? Medicaid might be withheld

[Judi Lynn]

Posted on Thu, Oct. 27, 2005

Too fat? Medicaid might be withheld

By TIM HOOVER
The Kansas City Star

JEFFERSON CITY — A commission looking at ways to overhaul the state’s Medicaid system pondered Wednesday whether smoking and bad eating habits ought to be penalized.

The Missouri Medicaid Reform Commission must file a report by Jan. 1. On Wednesday, the panel spent most of the day sorting through members’ suggestions.

The commission meets again today and is expected to discuss eligibility requirements for Medicaid, among other subjects.

Sen. Charlie Shields, the St. Joseph Republican who leads the panel, suggested that Medicaid recipients who smoke should be required to take a smoking cessation class before they can receive Medicaid services.
(snip/...)

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/13006110.htm



Charlie Shields

[Journeyman]

1. Sick? Dying? Medicaid may be withheld . . .

gotta keep those costs low, and spending bucks on sickos and the dying just doesn't make sense in a "bottom line" sort of way.

:sarcasm:

[Art_from_Ark]

17. "Running government 'like a business'"...

...makes me want to :puke:

[Bassic]

174. Me too

Government is not a business and it should not be either. It's goals are not to be profitable a small goups of owners, but to be of assistance to the population in general.

Damn RW bitches...

[ixion]

2. hmmm... so our high stress, fast food culture

which encourages both smoking and being over-weight, albeit not directly, will now withhold the taxes these people have paid over the years.

That's quite a nice little scam they got going. It's working out pretty well for them. :grr:

[Nay]

4. Doesn't it, though? They'll get you twice--first, by immersing you

in an unhealthy culture from your birth, encouraging you to become a "consumer" instead of a citizen, and then, when you succumb to that culture, they take away med care cuz you're fat or you smoke. And they wonder why no one gives a shit anymore.

[goforit]

69. Same thing they do to herds of cattle.Once they're ripe off they go to ...

the slaughter house.

Negative reinforcement always backfires.

Yes we have a visious society. There is no compassion any more.

[LiberalFighter]

144. It's called conservative compassion

[superconnected]

205. they get you 3 times. They're still billing you for it.

[Hekate]

3. Are they planning to punish anorexics equally? No?

So what next, O Compassionate Conservatives?

No dialysis for kidney patients who consumed too much salt in their diets?

No help with Type 2 diabetics because they brought it on themselves? No help when a diabetic loses a limb or eyesight, because, well you know...

How many more ailments can be attributed to "lifestyle choices"? Are we supposed to just let these people die in the streets? Because, after all, they deserve punishment for their (presumed, not proven) lack of self-control?

Whatever happened to medical patient education and support? Whatever happened to Health classes in high schools, and Nutrition/Cooking classes, too? Whatever happened to nutritious hot lunch programs in public schools -- were they eliminated the same time schools installed soda machines to raise money?

Compassionate conservatism -- one of the great oxymorons of our age.

Hekate

[w8liftinglady]

10. That is EXACTLY what I think

I have never understood why Medicaid didn't provide more preventative health services-especially for children.If they would be more proactive with exercise and weightloss surgery,there would be a marked decrease in related health disorders.
What you will see is a nation of people with multiple medical problems
waiting until they are deathly ill,racking up hundreds of thousands in medical bills,when their bill could be 1/100th with preventative medicine.

[RC]

14. There is no money in preventive health care.

There is money in the machines and other equipment and in the treatment of the problem after the damage is done. Drugs, don't cha know? Throwing pills at your problem is a real money maker for the "health care industry."

[ikojo]

20. I have a friend who is almost a vegan

He and his wife eat an organic vegetarian diet and buy only organic milk and cream for their coffee. They also buy only organic coffee.

Guess what...HE has high blood pressure and is being treated as a possible diabetic. He currently must test his blood sugar two times a day and keep a record so his doctor can determine whether he is diabetic.

Oh and this guy is NOT fat...far from it. He is very lean.

[CBHagman]

31. I know what you mean...

I've heard of people who exercised regularly and ate a low-fat, high-fiber diet and still wound up having a bypass.

I too have had serious illnesses (fortunately, while insured) and have been surprised by how judgmental can be about that case of cancer or heart disease. It's a blame-the-victim mind-set, even from people who do not follow a healthy lifestyle.

[shrike]

35. Who was it, Jim Fixx?

The dude who wrote a book on running? Dropped dead of a heart attack.

My husband has a heart condition that is hereditary. He could be thin as a rail and it would make no difference. He is overweight presently, but is more active than most people. It burns me when people suggest that his heart condition would be "improved" if he'd only lose some weight. Not even his doctors bug him about losing weight.

[AndyTiedye]

39. The Guy Who Ran the Best Bike Shop in these Parts Dropped Dead

He was an avid cyclist himself too, certainly not fat.

[melody]

77. Obesity is not a risk factor for heart disease: it can be an irritant

It can sometimes be helpful to lose weight for people with heart problems, but not in all situations. We really need to deal with our own doctors (as your husband does) in making these decisions.

Martin Sheen (aged 35) who jogged five miles a day had a massive heart attack at the same age his father did, and his father was fat. Similarly, John Candy in reverse - John's dad was slender and died at 32 from a heart attack. John Candy was fat and died at nearly 40.

[Matariki]

36. not to waylay your point

but eating an organic vegan diet isn't automatically healthier. i know plenty of vegetarians that live mostly on carbs and sugar - it's just *organic* carbs and sugar. they're not nearly as healthy as they fool themselves into thinking.

[cornermouse]

5. It is a known fact that poverty limits access to a healthier diet.

Healthier food generally tends to be more expensive. If I remember correctly, something like 80% of people will become overweight as they age. Why are these people (republicans and their legislators) incapable of reading, listening to experts, and thinking? The policies that they are pursuing don't even reflect the religious beliefs that they claim to believe in. Whatever happened to the Good Samaritan? :shrug:

Edited for clarification.

[kurth]

8. Not everyone has money for a low-fat vegan diet

Having spent time in the Appalachians, I can attest to the fact that many poor people prefer high-fat or calorie-dense food items because it's a more economical choice for them and their children. Fruits and vegetables are not cheap.

[cornermouse]

12. You eat food that will stop feeling of hunger.

Veggies and fruits are expensive. The balanced diet of the traditional food pyramid is already out of reach for a lot of people and more people are losing their ability to maintain it every day.

[zalinda]

13. Not only that, that cheap food stays in your body

longer. Fruits and veggies just run right through you. Why do you feel hungry an hour after eating Chinese? It's because it's mostly veggies. Now that $.33 box of mac and cheese, add a $.50 can of tuna and you have dinner for at least 2 people. Also, fruits and veggies spoil fast if you don't get around to using them right away.

zalinda

[BiggJawn]

19. Crappy food is cheaper.

Back in the Ronnie Ray-Guns days, I had to decide what was gonna be for dinner, 1/2 a pound of chicken or 2 pounds of bacon "Ends and Pieces". Broccoli and carrots or beans. Fruit juice or pop. Lots of Bisquick biscuits.

And the USDA didn't help matters, either. What did we get? 3-pound blocks of "Gubbmint Cheez" and 5-pound cans of PeeBee.

Ballast. When you're hungry, you just want the empty feeling to go away. And when it all falls apart, and you find out who your friends really are, who sticks with you? Yep, the Fridge.

"Compassionate Conservatism" has ALWAYS been an oxymoron, but it makes people feel good to hear somebody say that.

[zanne]

23. Pasta, pasta, pasta

Spaghetti and Macaroni and Cheese. Cheap, tasty, filling, and fattening. And that's just what poor people have to eat alot of. If you've ever been on a high-protein diet, you know what I mean.

[BiggJawn]

27. Yeah, we ate a lot of noodles.

Thee was this concoction my first wife made with boxed mac n' cheez, cheap burger and other stuff that I've blocked from my memory like any other trauma that she called "Cowboy Killer". and another on that was a sort of Tuna casserole that she named in honor of her sister.

Spaghetti and a casserole made from noodles, hamburger, cream of 'Shroom soup and Ramen were my specialities.

Cheap baloney was the "treat meat"...

This brings back such "pleasant" memories I could just go out right now and flat-out cold-cock a "College ReTHUGlican" from behind

[shrike]

41. Yep

See my below post. And mac-n-cheese used to be three for a dollar, during the Ray-gun years. No wonder I gained weight.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shrike]

32. Director of a food pantry told me

That her clients survive on canned goods and boxed foods, which are higher in fat, have lots of preservatives; ergo, many of them are overweight. No refrigeration at a food pantry, no means to store fruits and vegetables. Occasionally fresh vegetables available, but someone has to bring them in. And, they have to find a taker for them immediately.

[SoCalDem]

51. and most canned/boxed foods are loaded with sodium too

and HFCS...Look at what people ate BEFORE all the processing of food, and compare the diabetes/obesity rates.. The proof is literally IN THE PUDDING (and all the other "modern/processed" foods)

[KittyWampus]

200. My Father Helped Start Local Food Pantry. Hispanics Would Get Beans

and rice and blacks/white would go for the macaroni and cheese. That's just the way it is, I witnessed it as well.

This whole subthread is unreal.

DU'ers suggesting that Healthier food is more expensive. A freaking bag of beans and rice not only cost little, they go a long way, fill you up and provide essential nutrients AND taste great with the addition of easily grown herbs.

[BiggJawn]

40. I hope you're trying for irony here...

Because if you're not...
I suppose you're gonna tell me I IMAGINED the whole "I damn near became homeless under Ray-Gun" era, too?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BiggJawn]

55. That's a load of bullshit.

Lot of generalities in your post.
We made Rice. It was good. We ate spuds, too. and bread from the "Day-Old" shop.

Whole chickens or turkeys? where were we supposed to STORE these compact food sources? Only so much room in fridge, what with all the soda we had in there :sarcasm:
Baked, boiled, roasted, fried...Oh, wait, fried's BAD, because the po' already eat a LOT of fried chicken... Guess there was always Chiclkken Kiev and Cordon Bleu...

"They could not make a pot of beans taste good on a bet."
Yeah, Um-huh, right... how much you wanna bet? I haven't taken any classes at the CIA since I got off food stamps, so I imagine my cooking skills are about the same as they were 20 years ago. BUT....Now I can afford better ingredients.

Where do you plant these fabled "9 month greens" when you live in an apartment or a trailer park?

"They need education in cooking, gardening, farmers market vouchers and free passes to health clubs. What they get is pills and condemnation."

Yassssss....."Condemnation" such as you piled on them in your post, right?

[NorthernSpy]

56. who the hell do you think INVENTED dishes like red beans and rice?

They cannot make rice. They do not know what to do with a whole chicken or turkey. They could not make a pot of beans taste good on a bet. They don't know that greens will grow in most states 9 months of the year with row covers. Don't get me started on sprouting.

So I guess all those poachers we have around here are either rich folks bent on indulging their refined palates, or poor people who are too feckless to dress and cook what they've bagged.

:eyes:

As for the poor who live cities, where exactly are they supposed to grow all these lovely greens? Perhaps they should just take a page from Winstanley and seize the lawns of the local human services bureaucracy and plant carrots.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. When life gives you a pack of useless meddlers, dig up their shrubbery and grow crops on their lawn. All that tax money that funds the local coven of social workers needn't be a total loss.

What the poor eat: Ramen, canned chili, quesodillas, hamburger, canned hash. Mac'n cheese from a box and hot dogs. They drink soda and coffe with powdered creamer. They hardly ever have fruit in their houses. But mobility carts are free and there are no corner stores.

Sounds more like what grad students eat. But of course, no one begrudges such respectable folks their convenience foods.

They need education in cooking, gardening, farmers market vouchers and free passes to health clubs. What they get is pills and condemnation.

What they need is a respite from all the do-gooders and scolds and moral reformers who want to intervene in their lives. The subsidies that affluent people enjoy don't come with a slew of moral-therapy interventions attached. It should be the same for the poor.

[conflictgirl]

96. We're pretty darn poor right now and your post disgusts me

We KNOW how to cook. We just can't afford better ingredients, and we don't have the time. I have two freelance jobs and am a full-time student; my husband has a full-time job as well. We have three young children. Time is our most precious commodity. We DO have a lot of fresh fruit in our house. But you're wrong if you think poor people need education in cooking and gardening. Also, having been a renter for many years until recently, I can say that most people who rent - ie most poor people - cannot do any significant amount of gardening. Most landlords do not appreciate tenants digging up the lawn for a garden. Yes, you can do container gardening, which I did as a renter, but it's hard to produce any significant amount of food from it.

This summer when I was off from school, I tried a bunch of recipes from Cooking Light magazine. They all tasted really good and contained healthier ingredients. But it also had us spending $175-200 a week on groceries. Poor people can't afford that (and neither can we anymore, now that my husband took a 40% pay cut).

Your last line had to be ironic, because it's true that the poor are getting condemnation - but you're one of the people heaping it on them.

[KittyWampus]

201. that's the biggest pantload.. All it takes is some pots, dirt and water to

grow herbs and scallions.

I lived hand to mouth for YEARS eating beans, legumes and rice with the addition of herbs grown in pots or in the ground.

And I also knew where to get past their prime veggies for dirt cheap.

[Daphne08]

114. I can't believe you are saying this! I was raised in one

of the poorest areas in the United States and you are wrong, wrong, wrong!

[PA Democrat]

98. Actually, that poster is correct

Many health disparities in the United States are linked to inequalities in education and income. This review focuses on the relation between obesity and diet quality, dietary energy density, and
energy costs. Evidence is provided to support the following points.

First, the highest rates of obesity occur among population groups
with the highest poverty rates and the least education. Second,
there is an inverse relation between energy density (MJ/kg) and
energy cost ($/MJ), such that energy-dense foods composed of
refined grains, added sugars, or fats may represent the lowest-cost
option to the consumer. Third, the high energy density and palatability of sweets and fats are associated with higher energy intakes,at least in clinical and laboratory studies. Fourth, poverty and food insecurity are associated with lower food expenditures, low fruit and vegetable consumption, and lower-quality diets.

A reduction in diet costs in linear programming models leads to high-fat, energy-dense diets that are similar in composition to those consumed by low-income groups. Such diets are more affordable than are prudent diets based on lean meats, fish, fresh vegetables, and fruit. The association between poverty and obesity may be mediated, in part, by the low cost of energy-dense foods and may be
reinforced by the high palatability of sugar and fat. This economic
framework provides an explanation for the observed links between
socioeconomic variables and obesity when taste, dietary energy
density, and diet costs are used as intervening variables. More and
more Americans are becoming overweight and obese while consuming
more added sugars and fats and spending a lower percentage
of their disposable income on food. Am J Clin Nutr 2004;
79:6–16.

http://depts.washington.edu/uwcphn/ADrewnowski_AJCN2004.pdf

[Porcupine]

123. I do maintenance on section 8 housing. I see their kitchens.

I should modify my earlier statement. American born poor people do not seem to able to gather a diet of whole grains, beans, and vegetables and fruit. First generation immigrants Hmong and Latino around here do cook large pots of soup, beans and rice. All you irate people might do a little research on the growing rates of childhood obesity (epidemic locally) where they detail my above assertions.

The US born poor have minute rice, ramen, ramen, ramen, soda, chips, hot dogs etc. As for veggies, "cut and come again" greens like collards and mustard greens grow fine in a five gallon bucket. Look for a book on the internet called "The Year Round Harvest." Farmers market programs like Oaklands significantly improve the diet of poor folks. link:http://www.fns.usda.gov/fsp/ebt/2005-growing.htm

Whole chickens are available regularly at $1 a pound or less. Yesterday I purchased a turkey (cooked even) at $1 a pound. The garbage I clear out of section 8 housing regularly has boxes of frozen fried chicken. Go to your canned food outlet or other poverty grocery store. Look to see how many families have 5 pound bags of onions vs. families with soda. Plain oatmeal, is something you just won't see in carts.

Personally I grew up in a family of five kids. I never ate a hamburger that did not have oatmeal, onions, and herbs mixed in for bulk as a kid. My mom made lima bean soup or the like at least once a week. I KNOW how to cook on a budget and I KNOW how functional their kitchens are. I fix those kitchens.

Get off your high horse and look to helping your neighbors.

[PA Democrat]

125. "Get off my high horse?" Huh?

I cited research that supported the statement made by another poster that stated that it is more expensive to eat a healthy diet. I did not respond to any of your posts, so why the animosity?

Gee, I didn't know that citing RESEARCH would result in getting flamed. BTW, I have done thousands of hours of volunteer work, primarily with the disabled, so please spare me the "help your neighbor" remark.

[shrike]

147. $1 a pound? Where do you live?

I've been poor and I've been well-off. I gained weight when I was poor. Poor people may have a dollar to spend on dinner. They buy a bag of processed rice because they'll get five meals out of it. $1 worth of chicken will give you one meal, maybe. If you're lucky.
I'm not on any high horse. I've been down in the dregs, and believe me, it ain't pretty.

[PsychoDad]

101. I can get 4 boxes of Mac and Cheese...

For a Dollar. Use free powdered milk from a food pantry to make it.

2 boxes will fill up my Family of 4

.50cents to feed 4 people a meal.

Give me a cheaper healthy alternative and I'll take it.

Peace

[blue neen]

120. You obviously have a lot of DU'ers waiting for you to prove your point.

And while you're at it, could you please explain the oxymoron "compassionate conservatism."

[preciousdove]

132. Ramen 10/$1; lean hamburger $3.98;Fruit most over $1 a pound. n/t

Potatoes .20 a lb; eggs 1.17 a dozen; mercury loaded tuna .50 a can.
Jiffy pancake mix .39 a box; peanut butter $2 a jar; canned veggies are cheap, salted and much less nutritious than frozen or fresh. White bread is $1; wheat bread is $2; Milk $3 a gallon, kool aid .50 a gallon (mix and sugar), fruit juice (except apple) is higher than milk.

You obviously don't know how little food stamps are given per person.

[Shallah Kali]

175. Unfortunatly this is all too true and food pantries haven't improved

My disabled neighbor gave up on trying to get help now and then from our local food pantry because everything they gave her was loaded with salt. She already has heart trouble, high blood pressure and swelled up horribly in spite of rinsing off the saltly canned gov. vegatables. And canned fruit in pure corn syrup wasn't exactly healthy for her either nor was the full fat hot dogs.

[shrike]

189. They stock preserved and canned food

Because they can keep it longterm.
No refrigeration, no freezer space. (Never heard of a food pantry keeping hot dogs. Unless they were canned.)

A food pantry director told me bluntly, "Being poor can make you fat."

[DiverDave]

25. When I delivered milk in the philly area

I could tell by the type of order if it was a wealthy area or not, without looking at the address of the store.
How?, by the milk order.
Poor areas would ALWAYS have a large order for whole milk.
While the rich folks would only buy skim or 1%.

I have went into smaller markets in my area and not been able to buy 1%.

BTW, we eat healthy, for our kids, and it DOES take more money.

[KittyWampus]

199. Healthier Food More Expensive? A Package Of Lentils/Peas/Rice Is STILL

cheap, nutritious and convenient. Add some easily grown scallions, parsley and herbs along with some carrots and fresh veggies...

Perhaps we have different ideas about what "healthier food" means.

[shadowknows69]

6. Just line up all the "undesirables of society" now

and just shoot us. Get it over with already. I'm sure Auschwicz has some used ovens you could buy too.

[Kindigger]

9. Exactly what I was thinking yesterday

When my doctor told me to see if I could unravel the mysteries of this F'd up thing, and find a source for the benzodiazapine I take.

What I found out is there's a backlog of people inundating the "needy med" sites. I had called them earlier this year, asking about nicotine patches (which Medicaid doesn't cover). They told me that "since you have medical, whether it covers them or not you can't get help from us."

Seems now everyone on benzos are asking for their help.



:grr:

Oh, and when I talked to Medicaid I was told that I could possibly get a waiver for it. When I asked how, I was told the prescription would have to be presented, and rejected at the pharmacy. Then I would go back to the doctor and have her call them to see if I could get a waiver, which could take up to two months.

I said, "so I could get rejected one month, and be without them", I was told, "Yes, that's right."

I replied, "I see, so I will have a month to have seizures, go into a coma, and die from discontinuing them abrubtly." Thank you!

[area51]

11. I had a similar thought.

Truly, the republinazis hate the human race.

[melody]

7. Fat senior citizens live longer

That's the problem. Statistically, fat people live longer than thin people, particularly past age 65. They want to curtail peoples' lifespans.

[etherealtruth]

15. Oh come on, Melody

"They want to curtail peoples' lifespans" ... "they" only want to curtail CERTAIN peoples lives.

[melody]

45. lmao - good point

Not their base, of course.

[zanne]

24. Oh, please!

Would you like to talk to my doctor? He told me that having 20 extra pounds is like having a 20 lb. backpack on and climbing a mountain every day.

[NorthernSpy]

43. believe it or not, Melody is right about this

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/15/1861

Mortality is the lowest among adults classed as overweight. Even obesity up to BMI 35 is associated with a lower risk of death than that of "normal" weight in persons younger than 70. In those over 70, the relative risk of obesity does not rise above 1.18, even when anyone with a history of smoking is excluded. Also, the finding of lower mortality among the overweight holds true even when smoking and weight-altering illness are taken into account across the board (see http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/pubd/hestats/excess_deaths/excess_deaths.htm ).

Would you like to talk to my doctor? He told me that having 20 extra pounds is like having a 20 lb. backpack on and climbing a mountain every day.

I thought exercise was supposed to be good for you!

:eyes:

[melody]

46. exactly

Of course we're talking overweight rather than morbid obesity, however, the relative risk of all obesity is such that even the fattest women outlive thin men. And moderately morbidly obese men of certain ethnic groups outlive all thin men.

[zanne]

64. Have you forgotten about the HEART?

"Exercise is good for you"? Do you realize what a heart has to go through to carry twenty extra pounds every day, especially in an older person? Sorry; I'm not buying your "fatter live longer" argument.

[melody]

71. ignore the facts if you like

Read the research. That's where the hard science is, not in emotional reactions. Fat people live longer. Beyond that, there's no point in discussing it. Remember, Weight Watchers is owned by big business. Diet products are big business.

The truth is most people don't need them to live long lives. To live without disability is another matter, but only the extremes of weight (extreme morbid obesity - 600 pounds, et al) and extreme anorexia, affect longevity.

End of discussion on my end -- I just refer further consideration to the research already provided in the thread.

[eridani]

162. So, why is weight training supposed to be healthy?

And aerobic exercise? The whole damned point of aerobic exercise is to strain your heard--makes it stronger.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

182. I weigh 300 lbs and I'm 5 foot six

you mean I have a chance of surviving to old age?

[melody]

44. ask another doctor

I'm not joking. Here ya go -- it's the result of several studies, including the New Framingham:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/tgso-sfo080305.php

I know what popular wisdom says, but popular wisdom is often wrong.

As for climbing a mountain every day with a 20 lb backpack, of course it is, and people do that for weight training every day. In fact, some people do that for weight training daily.

[zanne]

65. You can't know how good your heart is...

You can't just take it for granted that your heart is alright. And we need our hearts, remember? Weight training? Sure, most people in their 70's and 80's weight train consistently. What a ridiculous argument.

[melody]

70. read the research

READ the research. The data speaks for itself and has for YEARS. Most people have healthy hearts.

I don't get into discussions on this topic because people speak out on what they want to believe, not on the facts. Again, I point you to the hard science on the topic. End of discussion.

[zanne]

73. "End of discussion"? Okay, mom!

You can read research that supports your own supposition if you want to. When I was 38, I took a stress test and passed it with flying colors. A week later, I had emergency heart surgery. (I had six bypasses). I've learned a few things about the heart in the 14 years since then. No, I'm not a cardiologist, but, believe me, when something almost kills you, you lose the weight and you read everything you can on the subject. NOW we can end the discussion.

[melody]

74. that is for you - for you, that is the case

We all have individual situations that merit reconsideration of circumstances. Patients with cancer who are fat live twice as long as very slender patients. Obviously someone with a heart problem may want to lessen their weight, but that isn't the case for everyone. Obesity isn't a risk factor for heart disease.

End of discussion on MY end is what I meant...I can only speak to and from my own experience, not for everyone else, which is my point.

Research always speaks in the general sense, not to specific situations.

[zanne]

81. "Obesity isn't a risk factor for heart disease"?

Wait till I tell my cardiologist! Boy, will he feel like a dummy!

[melody]

82. Tell your cardiologist to read the recent research

Poor diet and lack of exercise are risk factors, not obesity. Speaking, of course, for healthy human hearts without pre-existing factors. Every one is different.

My doctor's husband is a cardiologist and he regaled me for hours with data about the recent research. Why not read the research instead of sneering based on hyperbole?

You're not much of one for sticking to actual arguments, so have your final word and lets kill this thread. I won't be posting to it again.

[mimitabby]

156. yeah no kidding.

I guess I'll start fattening up so i can live longer. sorry, that's bullshit.
Fat people have more joint problems, more diabetes, circulation problems... more cancer
the fatter you are the less likely you are going to exercise ...
your body needs exercise, sorry.

go to your nearest nursing home, see how many fat people you can find in there over 80 years old. not too many..
m

[NorthernSpy]

86. when it comes to genes, some people simply get dealt a bad hand

You can read research that supports your own supposition if you want to. When I was 38, I took a stress test and passed it with flying colors. A week later, I had emergency heart surgery. (I had six bypasses). I've learned a few things about the heart in the 14 years since then. No, I'm not a cardiologist, but, believe me, when something almost kills you, you lose the weight and you read everything you can on the subject. NOW we can end the discussion.

Some people eat lean diets and their cholesterol soars anyway. My folks put butter on everything and neither of them has ever a problem with elevated cholesterol or triglycerides, or any other blood lipid measurement. In the rush to blame the sick as the authors of their own misfortune, the deciding role of genetics is simply forgotten.

Certain people are prone to certain illnesses, and those individuals may have to follow some unpleasant regimen in hope of prolonging their lives. But that does not mean that other people who are not prone to those illnesses should take those same measures; if they did, they might well end up doing themselves more harm than good.

[eridani]

161. Yep. If you carried around a 20 lb backpack--

--you'd get an excellent workout.

[Nikia]

190. Elderly people in my family have unintentional weight loss

In their late 70's or 80's. A few of these relatives were overweight but became normal weights in their old age without consciously changing their diet. I know this is not particuliar to my family as I have seen it in other old people. This could be one reason that you don't see many obese people in nursing homes.
If one is going to lose weight in their old age, perhaps one should be overweight in middle age to prevent wasting away. Underweight people are at higher risk of dying of things like infectious diseases, especially in old age. Perhaps, it is a good thing to have a little bit of weight.

[demgurl]

16. I believe some things should be with held.

One of my relatives had her stomach stapled and did it on the taxpayers dime. I was very resentful of that. For a while she turned down so many jobs because she was above making that low a wage. And she uses that government system to the limit. She was having water and electricity cut off when she had two kids but she decided to marry an ex-convict and have three more kids!

I do not mind when someone honestly needs help. I believe in that part of the system but when people abuse the system they should be shot. (not literally)

demgurl

[sweepster]

30. Medicaid food stamp fraud

7-8 years ago when my state still had paper food stamps a couple was in front of me in the food store line and they bought a birthday cake with food stamps and the store gave them back real money as change. I could feel my face getting flush with anger.

On the way home I stopped into the local conveince store to pick up the freebee newspaper and the same man who was in front of me with food stamps was buying beer with money. I about blew my stack but did not. At the time, my wifes job was lowered to part time status, I was not getting very much overtime and we were struggling and buying mac and cheese, beans, etc etc. We did not go on vacation for many years, cut out cable and just about all discretionary spending.

It still drives me nuts to this day.

[shrike]

33. That birthday cake

I remember, hearing about a couple (and this is true) who bought a fancy birthday cake with food stamps. It was for their desperately ill daughter. The expense of caring for her had put them on food stamps.

Things are usually more complicated than you think, and don't be so quick to judge unless you can hear the whole story.

Can't say much about the dude with the beer, though ...

[Mizmoon]

42. This sort of comment really pisses me off

and here's why:

15 years ago I was the woman with the food stamps. They gave me and my toddler $130 per month in stamps. We did not use every single penny on nutritious food. Sometimes we *GASP* bought cake! And yet somehow the nation went on paying it's bills despite our selfish eating of cake.

And for your information you only get cash back if it's a small amount. Larger amounts of change go back on the foodstamp card (they use credit card type things instead of "stamps" these days).

Goddamn it - it makes me sick to my stomach that people would begrudge each other some goddam cake.

[catmandu57]

47. Eight billion+ dollars missing in Iraq

Almost 300 billion dollars thrown down the shitter, wealth disparity growing daily and we're still hearing worn out untrue repuke talking points on food stamp abuse.

[NorthernSpy]

48. I, on the other hand, keep my nose out of other people's shopping baskets

If some poor food-stamp-needing person wants some beer or a cake, it does not bother me. Food is food. As far as your body is concerned, cake and buttered bread are pretty much indistinguishable, and beer is just soda with a little ethanol in place of the sugar.

Your post actually makes me relish the prospect of ending the mortgage interest tax deduction, as well as the current change in the bankruptcy statutes. Time to give the self-righteous middle class the opportunity to live by the same harsh "personal responsibility" regimen that they demanded to have enforced against the poor.

Don't want to subsidize a poor family's desire to enjoy a slice of cake? Well, perhaps renters -- who are poorer as a class than homeowners -- don't want to subsidize your mortgage.

And soon, they may not have to.




(edit: typo)

[SoCalDem]

52. another from our friend Ann Ecdotal

The fault (if any) is because of the bureaucratic parameters of what qualifies and what does not..

Canned non-nutrtious junk and snackfoods "should" be disallowed, but they are not....

Until the rules change, there's no reason to castigate the people using food stamps.. They are following the rules or the store registers would not allow the stamps to be used..

if you were poor and your kid had a birthday, wouldn't YOU use your stamps to get a cake if it was allowed?

Lots of poor people have marginal cooking facilities, and old appliances often have ovens that do not even work properly..

[progressoid]

111. Sure, that kind of "abuse" happens every day

But you could add up all of the food stamp abuse in America for a year and it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what our gov't gives away to corporations in pork, tax give-aways and no-bid contracts.

[bbgrunt]

34. there will always be abuses of systems--

it's unfortunate, however, that many who abuse the simple systems meant to help common people are so much more obvious to everyone than the abuses of systems(taxes and gov't spending) by corporations and those who have too much to need such obvious aid.

[zanne]

66. Give me an example of someone who "really needs help".

I hear alot of people complain about other people abusing the system. Then, they usually say, "But if someone REALLY needs help, they should get it". The problem is, they can never give me an example of someone, in THEIR opinion, who "really" needs help. It usually comes from a conviction that they shouldn't have to spend a penny on somebody else's welfare.

[hogwyld]

142. That's because we as a nation are spoiled

A lot of people who are otherwise able to work, would rather have the taxpayers assistance. I have been poor, unemployed, worked 3 jobs @ minimum wages, but, call it foolish pride, I have never collected food stamps, or unemployment. I've gone from making $20 bucks an hour to stocking shelves for $8. Yeah, I had to work two jobs to make ends meet, but that's what Americans used to do. Now, if someone can't find an unskilled job that pays 40k per year, they keep looking. I don't know, maybe I'm just to old school.

[DebJ]

173. My son suffers with mental illness, His meds added 100 lbs to his frame.

At $4 a day for food, lots of cherap starches are about what he can afford. Do you have a job for my son, please? He will end up calling out at lrast 6-8 times a year when his brain decides to rock his world. Maybe on YOUR shift.

[hogwyld]

179. Your son is who we should care for

He is the reason I gladly pay taxes to help out. Someone that has mental illness, or any impairment gets my help and compassion wholeheartedly. My previous rant was more directed at the people who abuse the system to collect benefits when they are perfectly capable of sweating under the sun. How many illegals are working construction because it's work "we aren't willing to do"? I apologize if you feel my comments were directed to your son. It's just that I get frustrated at some people aversion to physical labor.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Withholding health care because someone has a health problem?

So let Medicaid pay for smoking cessation clinics & exercise/nutrition counseling while these people receive the other medical care they might need.

[catmandu57]

21. The devil has us by the throat here in missouri

We've essentially told all the disabled, elderly, minorities that they're not welcome here. Program after program has been cut either to the bone or eliminated entirely, the only effect I can see is too make life hurt enough to force people out.
The jesus people were duped big time here, they came out in large numbers last year and handed the state over to the reptiles, now many of them are feeling the pain as well and wondering just what in the world happened.
I've got to hang on here, I have no choice in the matter, I find myself anxiously counting the days to the next election and hoping beyond hope that the same people who delivered us into this madness either stay home or see the error of their ways and run these heartless bastards out of here.

[shireen]

22. how about withholding medicaid for STUPID people

who come up with policies like that?

Are you morons telling us that people over-eat because they want to be fat, and smokers want to get lung cancer and emphysema?

[zanne]

67. No, that's just their way of making themselves feel better....

It makes them feel superior and, besides, they really don't want to help pay for anything like that.

[SoCalDem]

26. Hooray.. That must mean that poor people will now get vouchers

for lean meat, fresh vegetables, vitamins, more preventative health care, and gym memberships..THUMBS UP to the government for realizing that poverty is creating a lot of obesity..:sarcasm:

[shanti]

29. well, well, well

this will surely dump MILLIONS from the rolls :-(

[bbgrunt]

37. the culture of life meets the culture of personal responsibility

where those who disdain Darwin worship social darwinianism

[MadHound]

38. These goddamn fucking heartless bastard in this state!

They are out to loot and destroy everything here. If you don't make enough money, you're screwed. If you aren't a certain socio-economic class, you're screwed. If you aren't white and Christian, you're screwed.

The only good thing is that Boy Blunder is pissing off so many people with his stupidity and heartlessness that he is going to be a one term wonder. Hopefully somebody like Jay Nixon or Robin Carnahan runs against him and wins so we can return a measure of sanity to this state.

For my fellow Missourians who are less fortunate than I, please, hang in and hang on. Those of us with a conscience, and who can afford it are donating like crazy to help you folks out, to tide you over. Even many Republicans that I know are so disgusted with this group of thugs that they're going to not only vote Democratic next time, but they are actively helping out so that you folks don't go under.

[Moloch]

50. Good!

It seems to be forgotten that, for most fat people, being fat is a choice! Why should people who try to live healthfully be penalized because of the lack of will-power of others?

I smoke, and that is *MY* choice. I should also be penalized for my choices.

[Samurai_Writer]

53. Fat is a choice

Riiiiight.... so when a single mom making minimum wage supporting two children is grocery shopping, and her cart is filled with rice, beans, and pasta, that's because it's her 'choice', right? Maybe she should just stop eating... oh wait, that causes your body to go into 'starvation' mode and actually KEEP as many fat cells as it can. Oh, and I'm sure single parents have time to exercise too. Not.

We won't even go into genetics, metabolism, and chemical imbalances, since being fat is always a choice, right? /sarcasm

[Moloch]

57. Let's see...

Do they not eat rice in India? India doesn't have an obesity problem.
Do they not eat beans in Mexico? Mexico doesn't have an obesity problem.
Do they not eat pasta in Italy? Italy doesn't have an obesity problem.

No country on earth has the obesity problem that we have in the U.S.

What we do eat is lots of fast food, and that is most certainly a choice.

I said that for MOST fat people, obesity is a choice. Read my message again.

[classics]

61. Utter nonsense.

I suppose the poor people who have most of thier stomachs and insestines mutilated or removed, then die from malnutrition in the hospital while still weighing 500+ lbs were just choosing to be fat?

I bet you didnt believe someone who weighed 500 lbs could die in a hospital and have the cause of death be chronic malnutrition did you?

Your beliefs are outdated and more in line with a time when these people were forced to perform in the circus for your amusement.

Experimental 'obesity surgery' on these people that removes thier ability to eat would be 100% effective if your beliefs were true, however after surgery only about 15% get the desired amount of weight loss, even though they are physically incapibile of eating even 10% of what a 'normal' person eats, while absorbing almost no nutritional value from what they do manage to consume.

Life is more complicated than 'fat people are bad', but it sure felt good to believe that, even for me.

[Moloch]

62. Read my message again.

I said MOST fat people. Obviously I wasn't talking about people suffering from disorders.

I'm sure it felt good to take me out of context like that.

I didn't say "fat people are bad" either.

[melody]

76. I think that was her point

She was supporting your perspective.

You're very right though - this "obesity surgery" trend needs serious scrutiny.

[sweepster]

127. I agree I weighed 285 lbs on a 5-10 frame and a heart attack

woke me up. I ate nothing but junk food and fast food for breakfast lunch and dinner because I was too lazy to cook and felt I did not have time to go to the store to get sensible food. I knew I was killing myself but I did it anyway.

Right after my heart attack one night in bed I had such a sleep apnea attack that I thought I was going to die. The next morning I pitched out all the soda, candy ice cream etc and started walking at first 1/2 mile.

Now I bike and go on 5-7 mile hikes with my dog.

I have the energy of a youngster and feel so much better. It makes me sick how much money I wasted on fast food and the many years I felt like crap and was about to explode.

Obesity in 95% of the people is a choice. I lived it.

BTW: Good luck on stop smoking. I know the struggle you are going through.

[eridani]

163. Try your dog-walking thing in the inner city sometime.

Hey, and if it's dark after you get home from work, not doing the walk just means you're a lazy asshole, right?

[sweepster]

177. So I take personal responsibility for myself and I get flamed

LOL

95% of fat people are that way out of choice.

[eridani]

191. People who choose not to get mugged are so evil!

So are people without stoves and refrigerators who survive on what they can cook on a hotplate. How was it that I failed to understand this? :sarcasm:

[sweepster]

192. get real

The people without stoves and refrigriators is very rare. Even the projects have stoves and refrig. I worked in Columbus Ohio for low income housing and the very poorest had these amenities. If one was broken we replaced it with a work order-simple.

You also don't have to excersise to loose weight. Just watch what you eat.

You are letting people off the hook way to easy. I quess we will agree to disagree.

[eridani]

196. If you are genetically insulin resistant (as 1/3 of the population is)--

--there is no conceivable way to maintain normal weight in adulthood without a lifetime commitment to semistarvation on top of several hours of physical labor.

If you think otherwise, you must think that if black people dislike racist discrimination, all they really have to do is to stay inside more. After all, whenever I stay inside my skin is much lighter than it is if I'm outdoors a lot. And if staying inside doesn't work for them, my own experience is all the proof I need that they are doing it wrong.

[Bridget Burke]

171. Could you afford medical care after the heart attack?

What if you couldn't? And you had not been allowed get Medicaid because of your unhealthful habits?

You would probably not have lived long enough to get off your ass & lose the weight.

[sweepster]

176. I'm on group health insurance

[Bridget Burke]

178. So you survived the heart attack.

And it was a wake up call to improve your lifestyle. Congratulations--sincerely.

Someone who was uninsured & not allowed on Medicaid because of their weight would not have that second chance.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

78. Using that logic, you might as well cut Medicare completely

because everyone has their unhealthy "choices". Some are more noticeable than others. Some effect the mind more obviously than the body at first, then take their toll on the physique later.

And of course they'll want to cut gay men from receiving benefits, because we all know that's a "choice", right? :eyes:

[Moloch]

85. Of course..

Being gay isn't a choice. I know this because I'm gay.

I am also a smoker. I know that smoking is harmful to my health and I choose to do it anyway. It is for that reason that I think I shouldn't recieve medicare until I quit smoking. Everyone knows that certain foods are unhealthy. Yet, people choose to eat McDonalds often.

I don't think that Medicare should be cut completely. One of the major factors in health is the environment which a person lives. People who live in big, polluted cities often do so because they can't afford to live anywhere else. That is not a choice. Eating Big Macs every day is.

[Bridget Burke]

89. Shouldn't those fatties just switch to non-fat milk...

In their lattes?

[Moloch]

91. I think that would solve a lot of their problems...

nt

[Samurai_Writer]

90. And we all know fat people eat Big Macs everyday

:eyes:

When I was poor, going to MacDonald's was a luxury I couldn't afford. Now that I have money, I'm a vegetarian and eat all-organic. It's very expensive, but I like eating healthy. I exercise regularly, too. And guess what? I'm still fat!

I knew this would turn into a fat-bashing thread, just given enough time.

[Moloch]

118. Maybe you have a glandular disorder or something.

I don't know. I clearly said several times that not all fat people are overweight because of their own fault. I said MOST.

[Samurai_Writer]

126. Please back up your assertion

that MOST people are fat because they eat big macs every day. Thanks.

[Moloch]

135. Sorry.. I should have said "poor eating habits"

But you know what I meant.

Here's a link:
http://www.timesunion.com/promo/Image/ChildObesity.htm

Here's another:
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2004pres/20040309.html

Yet another:
https://www.healthenvelope.com/healthenvelope/page/weightcauses

Poor eating habits are the most common cause of obesity.
Therefore,in most cases, it is people's own fault they are fat.

[Samurai_Writer]

139. Maybe people have 'poor eating habits'

Because they can't afford fresh fruits, vegetables, lean meats, etc... but go ahead, keep on with your close-minded drivel.

[hogwyld]

188. I disagree

Fresh fruits and veggies are not expensive at all. Chicken is lean, and if bought on sale, costs about 89 cents/lb. for the whole fryer variety. Buy a bunch and throw in the freezer. Costco bulk veggies and fruits are very cheap, or farmers markets. My family of 4 are not rich by any stretch of the imagination, But we do eat healthy. We drink water, coffee in the morning, wine/beer once or twice a month. Kids drink milk, water, juice. No kool-aid, soda etc. We spend about 150ish per month for 4.

[NorthernSpy]

97. by that rationale, you could require all gay men to be celibate...

... in order to qualify for health benefits. Being gay is not a choice, but having sex certainly is. And going by the statistics, sex between men is far riskier than sex between women, or between a man and a woman.

And for the matter of that, you could also require strict monogamy on those same grounds. On the whole, sex within marriage is less likely to result in disease than is sex outside of marriage.


The thing is, anyone can play this game. Everyone takes risks that other people would find unreasonable. And as I said elsewhere, these attempts to penalize people for their risk-taking behavior usually boil down to somebody's little crusade to force his own values and tastes on others.

[Moloch]

138. Not celibate... less promiscuous certainly...

Most gay men are far too promiscuous, severely damaging the health of themselves and their multiple sex partners. It's terrible to see the destruction that AIDS has caused in the gay community. It's infuriating that it is still being spread when we know how to prevent it.

During the 80s, gay people should have been worrying about closing the bathhouses and instead worried about some kind of right wing conspiracy.

BUT.. That's off topic.

My point is that certain behavoirs are extreme risks and every one knows that.

Such as:

Smoking crack
Eating unhealthily every day
Having 200 sex partners a year
smoking

[NorthernSpy]

187. but would it be okay to deny non-celibate gay men health care?

Such men are, after all, pursuing a course of action that is statistically risky.

Going by your rationale, denying health insurance to sexually-active gay men would indeed be a legitimate method of discouraging risky behavior.

Me, I think that doing such a thing would amount to arbitrarily singling out and scapegoating one particularly scorned group of people. The reality is that everyone takes risks, and a lot of socially-approved activities are very risky indeed.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

104. Typical narrow perception of fat people...

Sorry, but fast food isn't solely to blame for peoples' weight problems. It's far too complex to explain it as a lifestyle choice.

I'd suggest you read some of the posts above to understand how poverty and metabolic changes can affect people's weight, as well.

To suggest that people choose to be fat is as absurd as suggesting that people choose to be gay. Why would anyone choose to subject themselves to the obvious scorn of others?

[Moloch]

117. Maybe some fat people just don't care...

about the scorn of others.

Like I said before, there are poor people in other countries. No other country on earth has the obesity problem that we do.

I also already said that not every fat person is big because of their choices, I said MOST fat people.

Nobody has responded to the fact that there are many, many people in poor countries who are not obese.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm a smoker because I have weak will power. I also believe that the MAJORITY of fat people also have weak will power.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

121. What evidence do you have that this is the choice of most fat people?

Maybe other countries don't have the "obesity problem" because other countries are not as obsessed with fat as we are in this country. Maybe they don't feel the need to prosyletize about weight loss because they prefer to mind their own business...and because weight loss isn't as big a business in those countries.

I'm not sure how prices for wholesome food vs junk food compare in other countries; but I'd be interested, if anyone has any data. I do know that here in the USA it's cheaper, more filling, and quicker to feed a family on macaroni and cheese at approximately .60 when you include the added ingredients than it is to buy fresh vegetables and fruits. And if you look at what's stored in the food banks, you'll find a lot of peanut butter, Spaghettios, mac and cheese and so on.

And don't forget to mention the fact that many poor countries don't have an obesity problem because they don't have food. Period. But fortunately nobody would deny them care, because it's easy to see that not eating is not a choice. Just like eating and throwing up afterward is not a choice.

I don't doubt that there are fat people who don't care about society's scorn; but do you honestly think they're in the majority? I highly doubt it.

[Moloch]

137. Uhm... I'm not sure what you meant in your first paragraph...

but I think the reason most other countries don't have an obesity problem is because they have fewer obese people. I'm sure that lots of countries keep records on this type of thing.

So, you're saying that people are fat because of the weight loss business in this country??

Is Japan a poor country? They don't have an obesity problem.
Is Sweden? Korea? Switzerland?

I think there is a minimum of societal scorn for fat people. This is because the majority of Americans are now overweight.

In fact, I believe it is easier to be fat in this society than to be thin. I say this because I rarely can find clothes that fit me anymore and I wear medium.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

149. What I meant was, perhaps other countries do not define

obesity in terms of it being a problem...not because it doesn't exist, but because they don't freak out about it as people here do.

And yes, a lot of people in this country are fat due to the "weight loss" business; because people are so obsessed with losing weight (rather than living a healthy lifestyle) that they try this "diet" and then another, destroying their metabolism in the process, and usually gaining back twice as much weight as they lost to begin with.

I'm not sure what your point is, mentioning wealthy countries that report no obesity problems...Clearly people can afford to eat well there; and probably receive medical care that includes preventive medicine, which would promote a healthy lifestyle.

Having experienced plump and thin and fat and thin and fat again here in the US, I can assure you that scorn is alive and well in this part of the country, at least. At one point, after losing around 50 pounds, I went shopping for clothes. A woman came into the store with a passel of kids following her, pointed at me, and said, I kid you not, "Look at that fat woman over there looking at bathing suits, like anybody wants to see her big ass at the beach." I was too amazed to be angry.

You want to hear more stories? I'm sure many of us have them. Perhaps most appalling of all is the scorn that's evident here in this very thread, coming from those that you wouldn't expect to stereotype people based on unfounded notions.

By the way, come to the DC area...you'll find plenty of smalls and mediums here, generally in much more attractive styles than you'll find in the plus aisles.

[Moloch]

154. I don't know about the diets that you speak of...

so I won't comment on them.

We're arguing in circles here. Any doctor will tell you that the MAJORITY of obesity is caused by unhealthy diets and lack of exercise.
I don't want my tax dollars going to insure people who are unhealthy because of their own lifestyle choices. Yes, I know we have spent more tax dollars on the war and I'm opposed to that, too.

I am truly sorry that woman said that about you. Nobody deserves to be ridiculed like that. I'm not ridiculing anyone. I'm just stating the MEDICALLY PROVEN FACT that obesity is *mostly* caused by unhealthy diet and lack of exercise. I'm not stereotyping anyone. If I was, I would say something like *ALL* fat people are lazy and eat McDonald's. I've not said anything like that.

Thanks for the shopping tip, I'm coming to DC soon and will be on the lookout.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

158. I don't dispute that the majority of obesity is caused by unhealthy diet

and lack of exercise.

But I don't believe people have as much choice in the matter as many would like us to think.

Medicare exists to help those who cannot afford to pay for doctors visits. If you don't want to support those who cannot afford to eat properly, fight for a living wage for those who must survive on minimum wage jobs; but don't cut the only access they have to medical care. It won't make them thinner, and you'll end up paying more in welfare when they become too ill to take care of their children.

[drfresh]

203. Huh? I've eaten junk food for the past 5 years ..

Mac n cheese, taco bell, burgers, soda, delivered pizza almost twice a week, you name it. Yet I've lost about 15 pounds in that time period. Why? Because I choose not to stuff myself to the brim and I choose to exercise occasionally.

damkira is right. For most people, I think being obese is a choice (in the form of lack of will power) of eating too much and exercising too little. And I don't think that unhealthy choices should be rewarded with taxpayer funded Medicaid.

[sweepster]

128. I agree with you

read my post when I weighed 285 lbs and how I got to that stage. Fast food and junkfood.

[Moloch]

140. Thanks!

and congratulations on losing that weight!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

151. It's great that you were able to break your cycle of unhealthy eating

but it doesn't mean that everybody who's fat got that way due to junk food.

[conflictgirl]

131. That's not totally true

A very major reason that there is so much obesity in this country is because our jobs don't require exercise and most cities require driving. Many Europeans do not have the problems with obesity that we do because they live in areas with good public transportation. Furthermore, things aren't open 24/7 like they are here, meaning you don't have nearly as many people working second shift, third shift, split shifts, or any of the other weird hours that make it difficult for people to have "normal" lives that include healthy habits. In other countries like France, people don't have to try to squeeze their lunch into 30 minutes. If you had two hours to go home for lunch and had a spouse at home who could prepare a healthy meal and have it ready for you, I am sure it would be a lot easier to be healthy than having a half-hour for lunch. I don't work in an office, but I do have freelance jobs and am a full-time student at night. I often have to eat my dinner at 10:30 at night because I'm in class during "normal" dinner hours. Eating that late doesn't do anyone's waistline any favors.

A VERY big (no pun intended) reason for obesity in this country is because our lifestyle makes it difficult to be fit.

[Moloch]

141. You make very good points.

I still don't think that government should encourage people to be obese by giving them MediCare.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

150. Giving them medicare will encourage them to be more healthy...

instead of not going to the doctor at all.

[Moloch]

155. How about offering them healthy food?

nt

[GoddessOfGuinness]

159. That's a good idea, too

A few years back they were talking about cutting WIC programs, which helped provide healthy foods to low-income pregnant women. I'm not sure if they did or not, but it was a move in the right direction.

At the same time, low-income people who do not eat well or exercise should be encouraged to visit medical professionals who will help them on a course of healthy living...not rejected until they miraculously heal themselves.

[conflictgirl]

130. But some risks of smoking are lifelong, even if you quit

So are you going to refuse Medicaid/Medicare all your life, since you once smoked? After all, your smoking may be causing health problems that will show up eventually - even if you quit.

I live 5 miles from Dow Chemical. Should I be ineligible for health care assistance because I "choose" to live near a company whose pollution may someday negatively impact my health? My point is that if you're really looking hard enough, you can find a way to blame almost anyone's health conditions on choices they made. It doesn't seem fair to me to say that some people don't deserve Medicaid because of their choices, especially because it's biased against only certain choices.

[eridani]

164. Being gay actually is a choice in a way

True, you can't choose your sexual orientation, but if it happens to be gay, you can choose not to have any sexual relationships, or you can choose faking it with a member of the opposite sex. Oh, you say that society has no right to treat you as a second class citizen and deny you real love and sexual satisfaction just because your orientation is gay? Why not? You seem to think that, in order to be considered fully human, people inclined toward weight gain should have to commit to a lifetime of semistarvation. That happens to be what it takes to maintain "normal" weight, at least if the national registry of people who successfully maintain weight loss is to be believed. Their "successes" have half to 2/3 of normal caloric intake and work out an hour a day on average.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=299x56

[NorthernSpy]

92. riding a bicycle is a life-endangering choice

So why should people who choose not to ride bicycles pay to treat the injuries of someone who does?

It goes like this: fatness must be penalized, because being fat is officially a Bad Thing, even if the fat person is actually in good health. Whereas biking is officially a Good Thing, even if it kills you.

:eyes:

That's arbitrary. You aren't penalizing people for taking risks. You're penalizing them for taking risks that you don't personally approve of.

[Moloch]

119. I don't have statistics handy...

But how many people die each year from bicycle accidents??

The two leading causes of PREVENTABLE death in the U.S. are smoking and obesity. There's no way around that.

People love to be told that their problems are not their own fault. Does that solve anything? Rarely. People should be accountable for their own actions, and denying people who are fat at their own accord MediCare is a good thing because it gives them incentive to be healthier.

[eridani]

165. Obesity is not a cause of death or disease

Poor eating habits and lack of exercise are. Obesity is simply not a risk factor in any controlled study except for people who are way off the bell curve.

[NorthernSpy]

184. no, obesity is NOT "one of the two leading causes of preventable death"

First, please check out the links I gave in one of my other posts on this thread (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1880615&mesg_id=1881533 ).

Next, be sure to look at this article from Scientific American: http://scientificamerican.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000E5065-2345-128A-9E1583414B7F0000

People love to be told that their problems are not their own fault. Does that solve anything? Rarely. People should be accountable for their own actions, and denying people who are fat at their own accord MediCare is a good thing because it gives them incentive to be healthier.

As you'll see in the data that I cited, persons classed as "overweight" -- that is, those whose BMI falls between 25 and 30 -- have the lowest mortality risk. This remains the case even when smoking history and weight-altering disease are taken into account.

Also, be sure to notice that for persons younger than 70, obesity up to BMI 35 is also linked to a lowered mortality risk relative to that expected for a "normal" weight person.


So -- now that you've got some facts under your belt, do you think that people in the "normal weight" and "underweight" groups owe it to society to gain weight? And do you think that if these people fail to gain weight, they should be denied health benefits?

[eridani]

166. There are many different ways of measuring the danger of cycling

It's far more dangerous here than in Europe, and could be made safer
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

Odds of Death vs. Injury in Crashes by Vehicle
Vehicle-------------------Odds
Bus----------------------- 1 in 1000
Car, Station Wagon--------1 in 108
Pickup, SUV, Van-----------1 in 75
Bicycle--------------------1 in 71
Large Truck----------------1 in 43
Motorcycle, Motorbike------1 in 26
On Foot -------------------1 in 15

Fatalities Per Mile
Motor Vehicle Travel-----------------Bicycle Travel
42,000 killed--------------------------813 killed
2.56 trillion miles--------------------21 billion miles
.016 fatalities per million miles------.039 fatalities per million miles

Data From NHTSA Traffic Safety Facts 1997

Does this data mean that anyone using transportation other than a bus should be denied Medicaid?

[strategery blunder]

54. Is there another link that doesn't require registration?

I certainly don't doubt that the Missouri Fascist Party would be so heartless, but not all of us view our personal information as a commodity to be sold on the open market, with lots of spam and junk mail being our "payment" for selling out.:grr:

[Judi Lynn]

60. Sorry, I don't find any other sources yet. No doubt other papers

in the state will have it later.

By the way, I've never received spam from the K. C. Star. There should be ways at every free subscription site to indicate you don't want to receive solicitation, etc. You're given a chance to check a box or something, or UNCHECK a box in all the sites I've seen, and you won't get any messages from them.

Also, if you subscribe to the K C Star's site, your registration should get you into the other Knight-Ridder papers, like the Miami Herald, the San Jose Mercury Press, Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, etc., etc. Here's a list:
http://www.knightridder.com/papers/newspapers.html

It sounds like a pain, but it only takes a minute, and you're past it, with access to quite a few active papers.

[strategery blunder]

72. No. I refuse to accept their conditions.

At the bottom of the site, it says:

After you have created your account, CoolSavings (3rd party ad agency) will show you a single page of offers selected for you, based on your registration information.

I refuse to consent to said advertising, and will wait for another source. There is no box to check to refuse it.

The line against üb3rconsumerism must be drawn somewhere.

[MADem]

134. Another alternative is to give them what they want

INFORMATION. It just does not have to be yours!!

Name: Elmer Fudd
DOB: 1 Jan 1935
Occupation: Hunter
Address (get addy for Disneyland, plug it in)
Phone number 123 456 7890
email: [e-mail] (great site, for tosser mail addresses)

This is especially good when your registration gives you access to a whole network of papers!

[area51]

87. registration

Have you tried bugmenot? They provide free registration for websites so you don't have to give out personal data.

[strategery blunder]

93. Thanks a bunch

I've bookmarked the site for future use:)

[Lars39]

58. *All*the social programs are just a drop in the bucket

compared to the DOD budget.
Every penny going to social programs is also just a drop in the bucket compared to corporate welfare.

They are trying to free up every pennythey can for the war machine.

Blaming fat people on Medicaid is a class warfare distraction.
Why are so many here falling for this?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

122. Thank you...

Today it's fat people and smokers; tomorrow it will be motorcyclists and people who walk to work.

[Jose Diablo]

59. Has the tax windfall from tobacco sales been used up already?

Oh, I forgot, they used this money to sell bonds on the future tax receipts and then used the bond money to build their golf courses.

Well, it won't hurt the better parts in society, you know the wealthy. The poor will just have to get through it, or die. But among those who matter, who will care?

[rinsd]

63. Behold the glory of state medicine when the Bushies are in charge....

...one reason I fear universal healthcare is crappola like this where the government feels the needs to extend its tentacles under the guise of protecting the taxpayer. Fattening foods, laziness, smoking, drinking, caffenine, etc etc.

Of course the heartless bastard schtick is a Pubbie trademark but this is a possible consequence.

All the same, I rather see most of the porr get some care and coverage rather than none at all.

[Igel]

68. Good.

Justifying that takes too long.

But it's not difficult.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

75. If they really want to save on Medicare costs

they should raise minimum wage to a living wage. All this stupid plan will do is punish the poor.

[kineneb]

79. personal experience

Hubby developed Type 2 diabetes, which morphed into Type 1 several years ago. He also has renal failure and is now in dialysis. I suppose if he had eaten better when he was a child, he may have had fewer problems, but his mom died of bone cancer when he was 16, so I imagine that nutrition was a lower priority than survival. We are on CMSP/MediCal so he could have the medicines and surgeries that have saved his life. What entity has the blanket right to say who lives and dies because of cost. Because we are poor, is it alright to allow him to die of his diseases? We paid taxes, before he was "downsized" from WorldCom in 2002.

It is difficult being poor and cooking for someone with a special diet. No tomatoes, potatoes or beans for him; they are too high in potassium. And no noodles and cheese either; milk products are high in phosphorus. And stress, let us not even go there.


Jesus was right: Judge not, lest ye be judged.

[eridani]

167. Type II does not change into type I

Do you mean that his type II progressed to the point where he had to start taking insulin because his pancreas could not overcome insulin resistance any longer? That's still type II. Type I means that your pancreatic beta cells are destroyed, usually by autoimmunity. Type I can occasionally happen to the insulin resistant type II people, but it isn't very common.

[m0nkeyneck]

80. since smoking and bad eating habits have...

long term consequences for society as a whole; it seems fair that the individual is required take a little responsibility. not sure if this is the best way to do it but at least the subject is being discussed.

[Kailassa]

83. This has nothing to do with personal responsibility.

This is just the thin end of the wedge.

We already know that this administration want excuses to avoid looking after anyone but themselves.
If they get away with bringing this in, does anyone truly think they will stop there?

They would bring in one thing after the other, putting everyone on guilt and blame trips, until they don't have to help anyone ever.

Hell, if they could get away with it, they'd make suicide mandatory for everyone they didn't find useful, and then make us pay tax on the cyanide pills.

[m0nkeyneck]

95. actually it has much to do with personal responsibility

withholding medical care should not be a form of punishment in any case. that would be barbaric… on the other hand someone that spends life flipping through channels, smoking 3 packs a day, and living on cheeto’s is something that we all end up paying for one way or another. no secret to most that smoking will eventually kill you; living on junk food(thx 2 the fda the term “food” is used very loosely) is unhealthy… the argument that “the poor can’t afford to eat healthy” followed by inaction should be replaced by “let’s teach the poor and/or ignorant the benefits of and how to eat healthy on a limited budget” lot’s of talk about achieving a sustainable energy policy; in my opinion it’s refreshing to here about officials discussing sustainable lifestyle policies. freedom doesn’t exist w/o accountability

[Bridget Burke]

102. "freedom doesn't exist w/o accountability"

Hey, that's almost as good as "freedom isn't free."

The bill in question specifically says those bad people need to get their acts together BEFORE they will be eligible for Medicaid.

[NorthernSpy]

88. why should I pay to fix the leg you broke skiing?

Skiing is dangerous. Those who engage in it do so knowing that their behavior entails a large amount of physical risk. So where's the big push to force skiers and other physically active people to accept "personal responsibility" for their risk-taking actions?

The point is that these little health crusades are extremely arbitrary in their attempts to identify risk and assign responsibility. In the end, it always seems to come down to whether or not the supposed "risk factor" is something that is socially disapproved. After all, both thinness and skiing are morbidity and mortality risk factors. But they are risk factors that enjoy a large measure of social approval -- which is why skiers and hikers and swimmers and skinny people are not getting called on the carpet about "how much they're costing us".


:eyes:

[m0nkeyneck]

94. if a person can't afford med insurance

it's prolly a good idea for them to stay off the slopes ;-)


it is dangerous.. and no, u shouldn't pay for my broken leg

[Bridget Burke]

100. Everyone else insured by the company that insures you....

Pays for your broken leg.

Withholding health care from someone who has "bad habits" is not the way to encourage them to improve their life. Smoking cessation programs & diet/exercise counseling cost money. So--make them free to those who need them. But don't neglect their other health problems in the meantime.

[m0nkeyneck]

105. did you read my post?

[NorthernSpy]

103. okay -- how about biking instead of skiing?

... in case my choice of skiing as an example muddied the waters. A poor person might conceivably have a bicycle. Biking entails risk. Should the Medicaid-using bike rider be penalized for taking that risk? Or should he not be penalized because Biking Is A Healthy Activity, Even When It Results In Injury Or Death?

(:eyes:)

it is dangerous.. and no, u shouldn't pay for my broken leg

I'm not sure that I have a clear idea of what criteria you would use to determine whether or not the public should pay to treat illnesses and injuries.

:think:

[m0nkeyneck]

106. well, if you want to compare biking to smoking..

good luck w/ that...

[NorthernSpy]

110. both biking and smoking entail physical risk

One activity enjoys social approval, and the other doesn't. Penalizing only some of the people who deliberately and knowingly take risks is arbitrary.

[madmark]

116. More people get hurt driving than skiing.

[NorthernSpy]

129. true, and the point stands regardless

Everyone takes risks that some people disapprove of. Risky activities shouldn't be called "healthy" and "safe" just because they enjoy a level of social approval that is denied to smoking cigarettes or being fat.

[loyalsister]

145. Why not tax people for being fat, then

whether they are poor or a wealthy executive?

[elsiesummers]

160. I hope Dick Cheney had to take that health class before his pacemaker op.

Dick's been on the public/government health care dollar for a while now and I hope he had to sit thru health class before he was insured, received his stendt and pacemaker and recent knee aneurysm* operations.

*Knee Aneurysms - who knew they even existed until that most ravaged of creatures, Tricky Dick II, presented with them?

[WindRavenX]

84. Reading this thread has really been a bummer

Some people are so void of the reality that is living in minimum wage America that is just make me want to cry.
I'm a student who has a small fridge, no room for a freezer (so that makes storing meat out of the question), and lives off of about 10$ a week.
I eat rice and beans, mac n' cheese, and tomatos. And coffee, when my mom sends it. I've gained weight sense switching from a high-protein, low carbohydrate/high refined white flour diet.
Refined sugar/startches are poison, pure and simple.
For all the people moaning "but teh people in India don't get fat!!11!" because they eat rice: they eat strains of rice that are not refined of their nutrients; they have fiber and are easier to digest. Our shit here is bleached of all their nutrients. White rice is not healthy. At all. But it is dirt cheap, which is why I buy it

Christ people, poverty is the problem here.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

152. Exactly...And who gets punished?

More poor people, of course. :grr:

[Biased Liberal Media]

197. I'm an Insulin Resistant person

who has struggled with obesity for years now. Reading some of the posts here have me disgusted.

Another reason I don't post here much anymore. It's a damn shame that some people who come here and basically brand themselves as "free-thinkers" or "progressives" still think so close-minded.

For the record, I am not on Medicaid. We do not qualify for it. We qualify for a Basic Health program, but because of the 1, waiting time period and 2, the fact that they want your annual deductible up front, we cannot afford it. I haven't been to a doctor in almost 3 years and eventually I will end up with Type 2 Diabetes as it is very common on my maternal side.

No thanks to Insulin Resistance it has been a long and hard road full of failure on trying to get my weight to a healthy number. So please, don't throw the bullshit line of "fat people don't deserve Medicaid" in MY face. I'm using herbal supplements to try to preserve what health I do have left.

[Fox Mulder]

99. This thread is really ugly.

I can't believe some of the responses I'm reading in this thread! It's appalling!

You know, some people might not be able to help they're overweight. There could be another issue involved, such as a mental disorder or a thyroid problem.

I'm gonna leave here before I blow a gasket. :grr:

[catmandu57]

107. People have lost track of the original post

It started out reporting the latest target by our state reptiles. I live here, just minutes away from this idiot shields.
These nazis hate everyone who isn't white, monied, able bodied, and a reptile. They have embarked upon a scorched earth campaign designed to rid the state of all who don't fit their uberman model.

I'm one of their targets, disabled, a natural born cripple, and in their eyes worthless, I've already been cutoff medicaid, lickily I'm still young enough to be in relatively good health.

These heartless bastards are culling the herd, cutting healthcare, food aid, heating aid, mental health aid, child care aid, I really meant it when I say the devil has us by the throat here, obese people and smokers are just the latest targets. There'll be a new group when they're finished here, it really would be easier if they just sent us all a cyanide cap so we could get it over with quick.
Have pity on us poor basatards we're dying as fast as we can.

[mcscajun]

108. When the subject has "fat" in the title, sooner or later, some people

Must, must, must engage in fat-bashing. It's unfortunately inevitable.

And you're right about culling the herd. That Is The Focus of the OP. And you're correct, many have forgotten the focus, and gotten side-tracked with their anti-fat prejudices and ignorance.

[NorthernSpy]

109. this is exactly why I always argue against the anti-fat crusade...

I can't believe some of the responses I'm reading in this thread! It's appalling!

You know, some people might not be able to help they're overweight. There could be another issue involved, such as a mental disorder or a thyroid problem.

I've said it before: it is not obesity, but rather the anti-fat crusade itself that stands between Americans and any chance of obtaining of healthcare for all.

The anti-fat-people crusade selectively focuses on one much-scorned group in our society as the reason why healthcare is unaffordable. It's just arbitrary scapegoating, and it serves a reactionary end. The fact that we are still having this discussion after science debunked the claims of the anti-fatters tells us that this is a debate fueled by hysteria and the politics of resentment -- and not by reason, evidence, and fairness.

Too bad that not everyone understands that.

[Kailassa]

112. It's just another neocon tactic.

Work up anger against one segment of the population, then target them.

If you are:
- poor,
- Black,
- a single mother,
- anyone in a hurricane area,
- a person with a mental illness
- or, horror of horrors, FAT,
then you obviously deserve everything bad that might happen to you.

I really expected more of the DUers here than to obediently follow Bush's lead and start cackling their hatred of large people like demented hens fighting to peck the unpopular one to death.

But then, at least one person in this thread is an obvious troll.

[catmandu57]

113. Is it the one I put on ignore

The one I alerted on? I hope so.

[entanglement]

170. Thank you, I think you nailed it

n/t

[conflictgirl]

133. Exactly. Also, many medications cause weight gain.

For example, most antidepressants have weight gain as a side effect. How many *millions* of people are taking antidepressants? Oh, but it's probably somehow their fault that they were depressed enough to need medication. :eyes:

[madmark]

115. Obesity and smoking increase one's health's costs . . . A private

insurer can, and if it wants any actuarial accuracy should, use these factors in determining a premium. The quesion is should a public insurer, Medicaid, who has to treat all comers regardless of financial condition, acknowledge and factor in these conditions in anyway as to how they operate or provide services?

[Megahurtz]

124. What a Freak.

I guess this guy thinks he's perfect or something.:eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

136. Very slippery slope

There are a lot of auto-immune disorders out there that disable people. And we are finding the genetic markers for these diseases, or potential for diseases more and more.

I wonder if this could set a precedent for medicaid denial?

I've read the arguements about poor and eating habits. I've been very, very poor. Instead of penalizing, providing preventative health coverage, educational information and food buying incentives for the poor would be far more effective. The WIC program comes to mind. It provided milk, eggs, cheese and certain types of cereal for poor new mothers. I remember being on WIC and how it helped me think in a healthier way about food choices. Just showing up to qualify and they would give you information on healthier eating habits.

Now for anyone who has used food banks, like myself,-- (back in the day) food choices were limited to what was available. I remember greasy chicken backs and breaded "salmon" patties. Lots of pasta. Lots of white rice. Lots of high sodium canned items. Lots of bread. We'd make hamburger soup with canned vegatables. Ah, the memories. My oldest won't eat macoroni and cheese to this day.

[Deja Q]

143. It just gets worse and worse.

My health is a blessing, oddly.

And I pity the healthy who will outlive me.

[sleipnir]

146. Ummm...shouldn't we be helping the morbidly obese?

I think it's more in our country's interest to help them, not let them just die away slowly and painfully.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

153. What a concept!

Think we could get the government to pay them a living wage, so they could afford decent food and nutrition counseling?

[shrike]

148. Fat people disgust me

How dare they pollute my line of vision? Why don't they stay indoors, pull the windowshades and spare my eyes?

:sarcasm:

Geez Louise, get a grip, people. (Some on this thread.) This world is full of terrific, worthwhile people who happen to be overweight.

[depakid]

157. Here's the kicker:

"Democrats have criticized Republican lawmakers and Gov. Matt Blunt for cutting a program that helped provide low-cost fresh fruits and vegetables to the poor.

That undermined Republicans’ efforts to prevent obesity, said Rep. Margaret Donnelly, a St. Louis Democrat."

[salin]

168. this thread seems to have forgotten the issue is public policy

you have a gov who is making extreme cuts to the safety nets in his state - without any response to the increasing costs that will occur (all those folks now off of medicaid - will still get sick - just will wait til even more sick to show up at a hospital - some of which still do take (and write off - on the dime of others) folks with no coverage. The result will either be higher overall health costs - or - living in a community that starts to just allow folks to die with no medical attention as all hospitals/emergency rooms stop providing any care to those not insured. And the issue I refer to is even before this proposal for cutting back elligibility based on weight. The info that you add points out even more the irony in this public policy move. It isn't about trying to get poor people to eat more healthy and slim down - it is simply about covering fewer people.

This whole 'obseity is a personal choice' - 'no it isn't in the US it is cheaper to eat poorly' discussion up thread - that gets pretty ugly and revealing, imo, is completely beside the point of this news item.

This is about public policy. Should the state govt be giving 'bodyfat' tests to determine eligibility for coverage? What are the impacts of this policy - and what are the inconsistencies (ala the cutting of the low-cost fresh fruits and vegetables for the poor programl.)

[shrike]

194. A permissible prejudice

Fat people are lazy, weak-willed, etc., ergo it is okay to bash them. Prejudice of any sort brings out the worst in people.

You're right that it's a public policy issue. And BTW, who decides who is "too fat"? According to current weight tables, I am overweight. Most people I know, however, tell me I am "fit," or in "really good shape." (I work out a lot and have a fair amount of muscle on my aging frame.)

[koopie57]

169. I wonder if maybe

we should accept people and recognize that we all have "something". When all is said and done I suspect that most generally everyone has a health issue, mental or physical, of some sort. Maybe we should just accept people as they are, with their problems and short commings. Just saying.

[Bridget Burke]

172. If someone has habits that will damage their health...

They should be encouraged to improve their lifestyles.

But refusing them health care is the WRONG way to do it.

[NorthernSpy]

181. what should we do about all those joggers...

... who insist on pursuing their health-endangering habit despite the acute risk to their cardiovascular systems, as well as the acute and cumulative damage to their bones, joints, and spines? It costs money to treat those problems, you know.


I mean, as long as we're straightening out people who do things that endanger their bodies...

[Bridget Burke]

186. I, personally, am not going to straighten anybody out.

But physicians have been known to make life-style suggestions. And even recommend helpful programs for willing patients. Orthopedists can, indeed, let someone know when it's time to explore a more gentle fitness program.

If people are not insured & can't get onto Medicaid until they are perfect, there's a big problem.

[Supersedeas]

180. when law and order Repubs invade personal space-do they become fascists

[progressivebydesign]

183. That's so wrong. Why not include HELP with Medicaid to change it.

Sheesh. Yes, studies have shown that obesity and smoking can cause health problems in many people, but doesn't it seem pretty draconian to withold medical care to those people? How about INSTEAD providing services to deal with those issues in ADDITION to health care benefits. That makes zero sense as those people will end up needing public assistance costing 100 times more when they are accutely ill from having zero health coverage.

Am I missing something? This is penny wise and pound foolish.

[Coastie for Truth]

185. As to obesity and "obesity related" illnesses - tax churches

Because - it is more likely then not that such conditions are genetic and must therefore be part of the "Intelligent Designers" grand "Intelligent Design."

So, the Churches, as agents for the "Intelligent Designer" should pay for what the "Intelligent Designer" has designed.

[Cookie wookie]

193. One simple question

Why do Republicans want to control how Americans live out their personal lives? Just what business is it of theirs to be making any kind of decisions about how we choose to live? These people want to sneak into our houses and look through our personal things, go through our bank records, mandate our personal sex lives, our eating habits, all for the sake of what? So they can steal our money for the richest of the rich. They don't want all this control for the betterment of society, after all. They want it for the sake of having power and control over others to try to force them to live by their moral standards that they themselves do not and can not live by and to satisfy their insatiable greed. They are self-righteous lying greedy and morally bankrupt human things.

When our framers created our Constitution and Bill of Rights, the deepest philosophy behind it was that it would allow human beings to be free to go their own way, find their way (or not). The Rule of Law would ensure that freedom while protecting the rights of all. No one person, group or political body would be lawfully allowed to impose their values, morals, religion, etc. on others. The laws of the land were designed so we could have both personal freedom, equal justice, and also have the rules in place so we could live in peace with our neighbors. At bottom, the framers knew that every man and woman has the potential for both good and evil, so that if the laws aren't equally applied to all, then evil men/women would gain power and all of us would lose our freedom.

The government of the US is not a money-making private corporation. The Republicans view it as such, and as their own private and exclusive club where they write the membership rules. That, as all of us here know, is a second government.

Charlie Shields does not represent our democratic system of government, but that second government. He must be routed out of office.

[cap]

195. This is wrong....some people have genetic disorders

that lead to obesity. My husband has syndrome X which means his body doesnt process insulin correctly. Fortunately, after a lot of searching we found a doctor who can treat this syndrome with Metformin. It has taken more than the six doctor visits allowed by Medicaid to diagnose and treat this problem (fortunately we have both the cash and insurance -- that doesnt cover everything).

There are many layers of obesity. Some of which is due to supersizing and poor nutrition (oh, and we are cutting the programs to give fruits and vegetables to the poor as well as food stamps). Lifestyle also is a factor. But no one is giving the support that poor overweight people need to overcome their problems.

Also, if you are working 2-3 jobs where's the time for exercising!

I could support Medicaid funded obesity prevention and nutrition counseling. But everyone is just saying suck it in. Suck it in doesn't work.

[Biased Liberal Media]

198. Syndrome X, aka Insulin Resistance

what a bitch of a disorder to have. I feel your husband's pain. I was on Metformin at the lowest dosage (500 mg) for a year but they pulled me off of it because I was one of those rare people who develop stomach problems FROM it. To this day I have stomach problems and wouldn't be surprised if I have the beginnings of stomach cancer (besides T2 Diabetes, there's another thing that runs in my family!) now!

No medical insurance here. We don't qualify for medicaid, can't afford the ann. deductible for Basic Health ($450 for three of us up front before we can even GET services and it's a 3-4 month wait to get ON the program PLUS 9 mos to wait to treat pre-existing conditions), so I treat myself with Chromium Piconilate and other supplements for Insulin Resistance and PCOS (Poly Cystic Ovarian Syndrome).

[Porcupine]

202. Please let this thread die!!!I

It has totally left public policy and now delves into the vast wasteland of america's weight issues.

Make this a forum or drop it.

[The Flaming Red Head]

204. In Arkansas they withhold it from HIV and Hepatitis patients

aren't christian right wingers nice people.

[superconnected]

207. Proof that they're evil and not nice people at all.

[superconnected]

206. Cool. Let's make fat people 2nd class citizens

Pretty soon, bald men, people who wear glasses and left handers will be disenfranchized.Too much tostestone and leftys are unnatural you know.

Oh, and if you're a white male with hair, we'll be checking your credit score. There's a definte link between bad credit and how much you should pay for insurance you know. At least that's what the insurance co's say. Why should medicad be any different. They're using the insurances companies stats for fat people.

Gays and blacks, sorry you're a high risk group. Maybe we should cut those programs totally. And the Hispanics - lots of overweight genetics in there.