Military shares public's declining support for Bush, war(53% disapprove *)

[sabra]

http://www.wcnc.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8DH767G0.html

Military shares public's declining support for Bush, war

Associated Press

More than half the North Carolina military members surveyed in the latest Elon University poll don't like the way President Bush is handling his job and the war in Iraq.

...

Of the 539 adults surveyed, nearly 53 percent of military members said they strongly disapproved or disapproved of Bush's handling of his job. And 56 percent of that same group said they strongly disapproved or disapproved of his handling of the Iraq war.

Overall, slightly more than 53 percent of those surveyed did not approve of Bush's job performance, while 57 percent didn't approve of his handling of the Iraq war.

The telephone poll was conducted between Monday and Thursday and has a margin of error for the entire sample of plus or minus four-point-three percentage points.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I think the vets and military folks here

have been telling us this for quite a while. Glad to know that a pollster has finally discovered this as well.

[Solly Mack]

14. Thank you

:)

[jayfish]

2. How Long Before The Right Turns On The Troops...

like they do anyone else who dares challenge the cabal? it should make for great entertainment.

Jay

[IChing]

Will the military choose the Constitution or the party?'

But first, here's what got me thinking about this. I came across the following, Military's Advice to Reporters: 2,000 Dead in Iraq 'Not a Milestone',

U.S. Army Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, director of the force's combined press center, wrote in an e-mail to reporters, "The 2,000 service members killed in Iraq supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom is not a milestone. It is an artificial mark on the wall set by individuals or groups with specific agendas and ulterior motives."

And this, The Party's nominee for chief Pentagon Spokesman, claiming the America media are in "partnership" with al Queda,



"Osama bin Laden, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Al Qaeda have a partner in Al Jazeera and, by extension, most networks in the U.S.," Mr. Smith wrote. "This partnership is a powerful tool for the terrorists in the war in Iraq."
Our media "in partnership" with al Queda...>>>>snip
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=23375&mode=nested&order=0

[jayfish]

5. Eleven Months Ago I Would Have Answered...

party. Seeing a poll like this makes me rethink that assessment. On Mr. Smith? He sounds like a typical fascist prattler. My question is why the media doesn't puff up for a fight? If not for DU, I wouldn't have even known about the comments. Granted, that's typical fare but a direct attack like that and all we get is silence? As flaccid as they are, I don't get how they take this other than they are being instructed to do so. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense either though. So...:shrug:

Jay

[LiberalFighter]

35. Military doesn't have milestones

Didn't they have a milestone when Saddam was captured?
How about the Mission Accomplished?
gw*dipshit showing up for turkey day in the middle of the night?

[5thGenDemocrat]

59. As a veteran, I'd like to think the former

We raise our right hands and swear allegiance to the Constitution when we enter the service. I served under presidents Nixon and Ford and didn't see any particular irony to that.
John
That said, I can understand why military members and retirees (my aunt served 23 years in the USAF) don't like Billy Bob Hitler one bit.

[electropop]

8. The right has been attacking our troops since we invaded Iraq.

No body armor, no humvee armor, fake media events, closing VA hospitals, charging them for hospital stays to have limbs amputated. How could they do any more to them?

[calimary]

13. And don't forget - billing them for their hospital meals, and docking

their pay because they're not out there at work, at the front.


:grr:

And don't forget their cutting back our troops' family separation differentials, and their extra in-combat pay, and cutting back on stipends to their families back home.

Yeah, that's supporting our troops alright.

BURN IN HELL, THEY WILL!!!

[Breeze54]

15. They could kill them....

escalate and kill them....
:grr:
Under equip them!
Not the right or not enough necassary tools!
STILL only (S)lightly armored vehicles,out on patrol.
(for some soldiers...)
Staged media events with Bush.
Charging them for EVERYTHING at the hospitals,
even fucking phone calls!

:banghead:

[DLnyc]

23. "Why don't our troops support our troops"?

The sad thing is, I can imagine them saying it!

[dwightspencer]

56. Troops supporting the troops

The troops have always had to pass the hat. Every unit that I was a part of during my service always dug deep to try to help each other out because as much as the Congress would pay us lip service, the food stamps did not fill the gap to allow the least among us to be able to afford the basics like adequate transportation, food, medicine, and supplies for children.

I love my fellow soldiers, and I know I can never rest until soldiers are better taken care of. I can understand why all the ex-soldiers in Augusta, Georgia, become cab drivers. They want to give back and help the soldiers.

More of the soldiers sampled in the poll get it. The White House will burn every last man and woman in uniform to line the pockets of a privileged few. What is going on is absolutely criminal. I am so thankful to have outlets like Democratic Underground to share this kind of news and learn about things that are going on in the world. You all are soldiers of another kind.

[DLnyc]

61. Thank you for your comment.

You are a soldier of the finest kind: brave enough to fight for your country there and brave enough to fight for the truth here. Those, like you, who speak out about what they've seen are key to exposing the lies that our 'leaders' are spreading.

And, welcome to DU!

[ClintonTyree]

24. They never have given two shits about the Troops.

The Troops are props for the benefit of their "fearless leader", the guy who's placing their lives in harm's way needlessly.
They buy their magnetic ribbons, their bumper stickers and flag decals but what they really support is their immoral leader, not the men and women fighting this stupid war. It's a game for them, let's see who can stick the most patriotic shit on their gas sucking SUV while making no REAL sacrifices for "the war effort" they supposedly support.
They care about bush, not the troops.

[Toots]

25. They turned on the troops the day they sent them off to die in a war for

no other reason than to enrich a few already very wealthy white men. It is just people are finally starting to understand that the right tells LIES LIES and more LIES.

[LiberalFighter]

34. They haven't already???

What about the cuts in military budget that affects them directly?

[obxhead]

43. They already have with a lack of armor and support.

[thereismore]

50. they have. Since day 1. nt

[Estel]

3. I can attest to this...

my son is a Marine in Iraq and he says they openly discuss how screwed up and dishonest this administration is.

[EVDebs]

4. McCain and so-called moderate R's too

Heads In The Sand by Bob Herbert
http://spectrumz.com/z/fair_use/2004/09_04.html

"When asked this week on CNN how long the U.S. military is likely to remain in Iraq, Senator John McCain replied "probably" 10 or 20 years. "That's not so bad," he said, adding, "We've been in Korea for 50 years. We've been in West Germany for 50 years."

A permanent presence in the oilfields is what the neocons and the AIPAC groups wanted. It would have been nice if they'd debated this adventure prior to the 2000 election.

[teryang]

19. McCain is deranged n/t

[donkeyotay]

7. Hi, Estel

The only thing worse than knowing these idiots are still running this country would be serving in Iraq and knowing these idiots are still running our country. The RW says it's patriotism to rubber stamp the fraud and incompetency of Rummy and the neocon gang, but I think it's patriotism to try to bring out the truth, to achieve justice, and to amend our course. To my mind, that is how you support those in uniform, those making the sacrifices.

Best wishes for you and your son.

[Estel]

12. Thank you

[Breeze54]

16. Ditto...

My son is with the National Guard and in Iraq also.
Just got an e-mail and he was telling me about the
UNarmored vehicles and told me not to worry...
yea...right.
I'll get right on it....

:hug:

[stanwyck]

18. Same here. My son is also

a Marine, two tours in Iraq. He says the same as your son. My son voted for Kerry. And he says Bush is considered a buffoon. He and his buddies are well aware Bush walked away from his military service. They're resentful of this administration and their chickenhawk machismo.

[Estel]

20. My son also voted for Kerry...

he is a Marine reservist and was due to get out in August. He got activated in June and left for Iraq the end of August. He is at Camp TQ -- between Ramadi and Fallujah -- very disturbing. If one hair on his head is hurt, Cindy Sheehan will have lots of company. I met her at Camp Casey in Crawford and she is awesome.

But, regarding John Kerry. I met him back in the day of VietNam Veterans Against the War. My brother, a former Marine, testified at Winter Soldier. John Kerry has spend literally his entire life working for people that need to be lifted. I am ashamed of this country that allowed a genuine hero to be vilified but put up with that absolute garbage and waste of human flesh BabyBush for five years now. Ashamed of this country that has allowed our young to be shipped off to that ridiculous war and allowed the people who questioned "why" to be called unpatriotic. I am ashamed...

[TexasLawyer]

21. Those Marines are smart kids

I've been sending care packages and corresponding with different military people stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Through AnySoldier.com)

I am so impressed by the Marines I correspond with.

[OhioBlue]

46. AnySoldier.com

I have also sent a few care packages via that site. I wish I could send more. When I read some of their requests, it breaks my heart. A local NG troop was asking for certain gloves because their hands were getting burnt while trying to make repairs on vehicles, certain flashlights and tools. (Engineers) I just stared at the screen for a good 10 minutes in awe that they didn't have the gear that they needed.

[dwightspencer]

57. not the right equipment

I surprised a friend today by sharing with him that National Guard and Reservists are people too. He assumed that some sort of special magical training occurs in weekend drills that makes these folks some sort of super heroes. I explained that all service members follow orders and these soldiers may have special training in their non-military fields. They may actually get reprimanded if they apply knowledge that would prevent them from expediently executing their assigned tasks. Check here if you need to be convinced. The service members have to make huge sacrifices and go against their hearts more often than anyone should have to.

[jonnyblitz]

6. Pro- war DEMS like Hillary need to get a clue then.

[electropop]

9. Some are starting to admint that they let Bush trick them.

It's their only hope for re-election. The rest are screwed.

[Captain Hilts]

32. It was said at the time that a lot of folks voted in favor of the bill...

because it would give Bush a better bargaining chip at the UN. They hoped that it would get the UN to take an active, rather than passive stance on the issue.

for what it's worth, that explanation was pretty common at the time. Some folks thought that voting in favor would actually reduce our chances of starting and conducting this war on our own.

[froshty1960]

45. Dem Support for War

I'd like to think they supported it because they knew it would come back to bite Bush in the end ... but I'm afraid that political cowardice was the real reason.

[Captain Hilts]

49. Republicans play the 'patriotism' card pretty effectively.

How they've been able to link being a war monger with being patriotic is beyond me.

[thereismore]

51. nobody in his/er right mind would exchange lives of troops for

political advantage. If dems did this, I hope they burn in hell.

[Breeze54]

17. RIGHT ON!!!

They all need to get a friggin' clue!
:grr:

[paul_fromatlanta]

28. There is a difference

There is a big difference between think it was a good idea to invade iraq without legal justification (which I do not) and thinking we can simply leave without severely damaging the U.S.

I think Hillary is in the latter category. That is a strategic question - dealing with reality that we are in Iraq - and it is entirely different than whether we had the right to go in the first place.

[reprobate]

40. Paul, it's time to realize that the U.S. has ALREADY been severely damaged

The damage was done when the Texas Village Idiot invaded Iraq with the only justification being a pack of lies cobbled together by the neocons in the pentagon. Every media except those in the US knew the facts, but our media whores pimped the war with everything they had.

As a result most of the world now sees us as a rogue nation. We are the most hated in the world. Our economy is being drained by the war. And the respect for government of the citizens of the nation has never been lower.

We now have a public debt of over EIGHT TRILLION DOLLARS. That's a figure we can never hope to repay, so we wind up depending on the rest of the world to keep financing our idiotic economic policies in the hope that they won't call their notes. Well, it's almost a given that one day they will. Some nations are already getting antsy about the huge debt they are carrying for us.

There's a simple plan that's been put forth for leaving Iraq, in fact the same one that we used in Viet Nam.

Simply DECLARE VICTORY AND LEAVE!

[paul_fromatlanta]

42. Absolutely we have been damaged

And we can't honestly declare victory since we have not won.
In fact I'm not sure winning is possible.

I'm talking about the best way to minimize further damage and at this point I agree with Hillary Clinton that we would incur more future damage by pulling out now that by staying.

It certainly bears re-evaluating as time goes forward.

[reprobate]

53. When I said "Declare victory and leave" I was being sarcastic.

But that's exactly the way we got out of Viet Nam. I don't see much difference here. By dragging the war out for unseen years ahead, we are just inviting more deaths of our troops and more deaths of the Iraqi civilians. I feel bad enough about our troops, but every Iraqi civilian they kill or maim means just more terrorists we will have to deal with in the future.

I think we need to face the fact that there may NOT be a good outcome to this mess and the only way to lessen the pain will be to get out. It took us many more years in Viet Nam to realize this, hopefully it won't take that long in Iraq.

And as far as taking Hillary's word for anything, I find it difficult on principle to take the word of any of the party leadership now. In my considered opinion there's not a nickels worth of difference between the leadership on either side of the isle. As long as the parties need to raise money for their campaigns we will have the politician obligated to the special interests to raise money. The only way back to a responsible government is to take the profit motive out of campaigns. Make them all PUBLICLY financed.

Another thought would be to elect all politicians for a life term. And then every year hold an election to see if we can agree to let them live another year. I guarantee that under this system we would see NO government corruption.

[paul_fromatlanta]

54. I'm sory I missed the sarcasm

And it isn't that I agree with Hillary because she is saying it, it just so happens that I agree with Hillary in this case.

[rodeodance]

10. whow. I did not expext to see this.

[paul_fromatlanta]

31. Bear in mind there are problems with this study

It's most likely not scientific because you can't call most people in the military for a phone poll. Especially not the one's in Iraq but also not ships at sea and many others.

[LiberalFighter]

36. Bear in mind that you can't call the ones in Iraq or on ships BUT

they can call the ones that have returned from Iraqi duty as well as the ones who gaining first hand experiences from those that have already been overseas.

[paul_fromatlanta]

37. That's true but

It can't be a scientific survey if the sample is not statistically representitive of the population.

Stars and Stripes has had this problem for decades - accurate military surveys are impossible without a massive government backing and then of course it's effectively a government study.

The real number could be significantly higher or lower or exactly the same - there is not way to tell.

[LiberalFighter]

39. If the study is strictly those that have returned from duty then it would.

be accurate enough because it would also be representative of those overseas.

[paul_fromatlanta]

41. I respectfully disagree.

Media organizations have reported over and over for decades that they could not get a valid sample.

[LiberalFighter]

48. Media organizations don't do polls... they hire pollsters

Which media organizations?? Which pollsters did they use?

[paul_fromatlanta]

52. Not possible to conduct a scientific poll active duty personnel without go

Not possible to conduct a scientific poll of active duty personnel without government help.

It's a basic rule of statistics, if the sample is not drawn evenly from the population the resulting survey cannot be relied on. Since active duty personnel don't have published phone numbers (and in most case don;t have individual phones at all) then it impossible for a phone survey to be scientific and therefore the results cannot be relied on.

Case in point - the October 2004 USA Today poll of 4,000 (a much larger sample the current poll) troops that said troops backed Bush over Kerry 4 to 1. The publisher admitted the poll was not scientific.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-03-bush-troops_x.htm

Military money cited phone difficulties that made it so that active duty personnel in the Souther Command joint task force must initiate calls rather than their families being able to phone them.

http://www.militarymoney.com/homefront/1109355311

The military Times runs frequents polls with a disclaimer like "The results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not representative of the opinions of the military as a whole" because even they with reporters all over the world on bases are unable to obtain a scientific sample.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-383722.php

I remember reading similar disclaimers about active duty polls back to the Vietnam war.

We have roughly 300,000 troops overseas and unreachable by phone and even in the U.S. you generally cannot call an enlisted man directly. So I am convinced that the study in question is so unscientific that we have no idea whether the real numbers are higher or lower and cannot even calculate a confidence interval.

[rodeodance]

11. glad to see that this is and AP story.

[jody]

22. This is overshadowed by the indictment but more significant damage to *.

[paul_fromatlanta]

26. How did they call soldiers in Iraq?

Or for that matter Germany or Korea or Okinawa?
Or sailors at sea?


I have the feeling this isn't really a scientific survey.

[LiberalinNC]

27. Not surprising at all - seeing that * has no exit plan(s) and won't discuss

any!!! BTW *'s approval rating for the state is down to 41% - a little above the national average, but still good to see that these asswipes who voted for him are starting to see "the light".

[wordpix2]

29. "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Famous Vietnam era slogan

[paul_fromatlanta]

30. We are not at that point

We are at the point where we have over-reached, and gone to war without legal justification and in doing so have made a lot of promises and taken on obligations and we need to figure out what is best for American interests from this point forward.

[pookieblue]

33. My Uncle...

has been in the army for years and years. Won't say where he works, but he's pretty high up in rank.

Anyhow... the last time I visited him and his family, I thought he was nearly going to have a stroke when he started to talk about Bush and this war.

He said that he was against this war since the begining...before it even began to tell truth. He knew what is happening now...was going to happen.

and he says there are many more like him.

The MSM won't talk about those people....

[leQ]

38. i think these numbers will never climb back up

unless there's a catstrophic event.

[stepnw1f]

44. Bush Lost This War

because he lied us into it. The Hubris of his kind does not all one, such as himself, to understand Democracy at all.

A war is only winnable when a majority of the people understand the true sacrifice and reasons for that sacrifice.

His lies lost the war. I call it stupid....

[Luna_Chick]

47. Support Our Troops

Send the cakesucker to prison where he belongs.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

55. They're probably tired of being *'s toy soldiers

The recently exposed fake press conference shows how the military has been nothing but props for the pukes.

[SunDrop23]

58. That bunch of TRAITORS! Why they...oh wait a minute...

that's disapproval of the "military president" by the people who's records we can account for.

[SunDrop23]

60. My second post in this thread, but that's HUGE...

For the MILITARY in a RED state to be returning this type of polling data is quite significant.

Maybe some of them are also saying "why in THE HELL did I vote for him?"

[USA_1]

62. !