Americans no longer view Canada as No. 1 ally, poll finds

[IChing]

VANCOUVER - The majority of Americans no longer consider Canada a close ally, according to a poll released yesterday by the Association for Canadian Studies.

The poll, carried out by Harris Interactive, discovered that only 48% of Americans surveyed view Canada as a close ally, down from 73% in 1997. Thirty-seven per cent called Canada friendly, while 2% considered Canada an enemy of the United States.

The results reflect a steady decline in relations between Canada and the United States, especially since Sept. 11, 2001, when Americans felt Canadians weren't as sympathetic as they could have been, the association's executive director, Jack Jedwab, said in an interview.
>>>snipo



http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=40004e61-b96e-484a-be5f-ff8c108b7e2a

[sakabatou]

1. Those who think Canada is an enemy of the US

watch too much Faux News

[kevinbgoode]

30. They think everyone but Poland is an enemy of the United States

because that is the only tool they have to establish and maintain power.

[imouttahere]

69. Amen!

[Silvermint]

229. Oh!

Oh, cool, right... I forgot about Poland...

=)

[pokercat999]

142. Most days now I'm really embarrassed to be an American. nt

[Exiled in America]

208. I'm not embarrassed - I'm ashamed and disgusted

And I'm not apologizing for saying so.

My country has become a humiliating disgrace and the only reason I stay is because I want to fight to change it.

[pokercat999]

221. I'd just leave if I weren't so lazy. As it gets worse

maybe I will.

[madmark]

176. or South Park

[trotsky]

2. The time has finally come.

Prepare for the attack!

[imouttahere]

25. Winter, 9 months of the year....

Ann Murray, all day, every day!

[shrike]

3. Weren't as sympathetic as they could have been??

I guess taking in hundreds, maybe thousands, of stranded American travelers wasn't enough.

[canadianbeaver]

4. yeah....we didn't join in the illegal war in Iraq......

but we did support you in Afganistan....guess going after the ones that help in the 9/11 wasn't enough.....

[Tesha]

152. Real friends know when to take your keys.

> We didn't join in the illegal war in Iraq

I always thought of this as a very friendly act.

Real friends know when to (at least try) take your keys.

Tesha

[shrike]

183. Good analogy n/t

[CTyankee]

218. It's nice to know you are there

Thanks so much, Canadian friend.

[funflower]

5. It's tough being the only country on earth that knows God's will

and doesn't hesitate to enforce it.

:sarcasm:

[HughBeaumont]

6. I love my Canadian brothers and sisters (except for Alanis Morissette)!

Don't believe the tripe.

[imouttahere]

9. Well, I LOVE Alanis AND Canada!

Hopefully I will be joining you soon, the immigration process has begun.

[hogwyld]

14. Help me!

Can you sneak me in your luggage?

[imouttahere]

17. Hell, if it were that easy....

I would have been in Canada permanently a couple of years ago.

[HughBeaumont]

21. Tell you what, if there's a draft by the time my boy hits 16 -

We have a friend in Sault Ste Marie where he'll be heading.

[imouttahere]

26. I think a lot of folks will be hoping for something like that...

draft-dodging of BushCo wars will make the draft-dodging of the 60's look like a cake-walk.

[Enraged_Ape]

36. So do I

My wife and I visited Victoria, BC, a couple of years ago. We were treated like "close friends" the entire time we were there. We fell in love with the city and its people and have seriously considered moving there. I'm sure there are probably a lot of countries in this world where belligerence and fear are not considered desirable cultural values.

[imouttahere]

42. Yeah, most of the developed Western world!

[Jim Stark]

51. more importantly...

How many Canadians still see us allies, I wonder?

[Bassic]

141. And welcome home I tell ya.

What province have you chosen?

[JudyM]

173. Me too! And Neil Young, Sara McLachlan, the Cowboy Junkies, kd Lang and

Joni Mitchell,Jann Arden, etc. Canadian music rocks.

[imouttahere]

175. Tragically Hip, Sam Roberts, Sarah Harmer, Moxy Fruvous...

Arcade Fire, Barenaked Ladies...

And let's not forget the French-Canadians - Isabelle Boulay is huge in France and Quebec, Sylvain Cossette, France D'Amour, Linda Lemay, Pierre LaPointe, Corneille...

[PunkPop]

199. Or The New Pornographers

A canadian treasure without a doubt.

[imouttahere]

224. Speaking of great names, how about...

The Bourbon Tabernacle Choir!

[DBoon]

197. Don't forget Skinny Puppy

Vancouver's industrial band

[Robert Cooper]

53. What have you got against Alanis (check the sig)

[cascadiance]

58. Is he a relative of Rick James?...

Rick James trashed the autographed guitar she gave to Yahoo's Launch studios in L.A. when he visited them for some reason. Some concern at Launch that she might return and trash his guitar too, and they won't be able to replace that any more with him having passed since then...

[0rganism]

60. "Cocaine's a helluva drug..."

Rick James will be remembered for those four (six?) candid words. They're part of his legacy now, immortalized for the Ages.

[HughBeaumont]

83. a) Joan Osbourne sang your sig, not Alanis

b) Alanis is one of the shrillest warblers ever put to CD. I HATE Jagged Little Pill . . . just boring and annoying angsty-girl nonsense from a former Debbie Gibson wanna-be.

[Robert Cooper]

130. I think not: link

http://www.lyrics007.com/Alanis%20Morissette%20Lyrics/What%20If%20God%20Was%20One%20Of%20Us%20Lyrics.html

[HughBeaumont]

140. I don't care what that site says, that's a Joan Osbourne song.

Some guy wrote it and both of them must have recorded it.

Either way, Alanis is still a shrill warbler.

[Robert Cooper]

144. I bow to the evidence

...and having never heard Joan Osborne (to my knowledge) I'll continue to prefer Alanis' version ;-)

[Bassic]

143. That quote is from a Joan Osbourne song actually.

And she is also canadian.

[Tesha]

153. Alanis Morissette...

Rightly or wrongly, Alanis Morissette was, of course, known as
"The Screech Queen", an attribute that became a subtle joke in
Kevin Smith's movie Dogma.

As you'll recall, in Dogma, Morissette played God. And as
Alan Rickman (as the Metatron) explains it:

Metatron: (Describing why God doesn't talk to people directly)
"Were you to hear God's true voice, your mind would cave in and
your heart would explode inside your chest. We went through five
Adams before we figured that one out."

Tesha

[Jo March]

189. Alanis didn't sing that song in your sig line - it's Joan Osbourne

Sorry - Joan Osbourne sings, "One of Us", the song you have in your sig line. Alanis doesn't sing that song.

[DJ MEW]

7. Blame Canada

We must cause a fuss before some one thinks of blaming us.

I can't believe that anyone actually thinks Canada is an enemy. I really want to hear their justification for why they think that.

Canada is a great country and our country could learn a thing or two with respect to gun control and civil rights.

[imouttahere]

15. The repuke echo chamber has the sheeple believing...

that Canadians are communists, because of their universal health care and other social programs. That make them an enemy in many merikan's eyes. Morons! I actually had a well-educated conservative tell me that he thought the Canadian economy was on the verge of collapse. Where do they get this crap???

[Amonester]

126. They sure never looked at these:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/gblec02a.htm

Imports, exports and trade balance of goods on a balance-of-payments basis, by country or country grouping

Where did they get their "well" education??

Also, the Prairies possess the second largest oil reserve in the world (oil sands included), and the biggest clean fresh water reserves on this planet, and add a federal budget surplus each year.

Yeah... Ouch! We must be real broke for them (ignorants)! :hangover:

[imouttahere]

158. The "well-educated" person is a kool-aid drinker!

I simply can't figure out how an otherwise intelligent person who claims to be "up to speed" on world events can think this way.

Arguably the most important aspect of Canada's recent economic success is the trade surpluses with other regions of the world. The less Canada has to rely on the U.S. for it's trade, the easier it will be to ride out an inevitable U.S. recession/depression.

[TrogL]

56. We're Communists

With a Capital C.

However, the people who think that also think that any country that is not hard-core fascist is Communist.

[imouttahere]

64. Agreed!

you're either a capatilist, or you're against us! Phuck BushCo!

[Sabriel]

8. I would put them at #1, if they'd LET ME IN!!!!

Please, I'm begging you. I even already have the accent, since I'm from northern Wisconsin. I know how to roll up the rim, that "steeped" isn't teen slang, and what the significance of poppies is.

Hellllllp meeeeeeee.

[imouttahere]

12. Take a deep breath, then take the assessment....

log onto the Immigration & Citizenship Canada site and take the online assessment...see if you qualify for immigration.

[TrogL]

191. Canada's just announced its upping its immigration numbers

to 300,000 per year.

And somebody's just been raising a stink about foreigners' credentials not being recognized and it looks like something's going to be done about it.

When I was living in the West end, the couple in the apartment below us were recent immigrants. He had degrees in Electrical Engineering, she was a medical doctor but both had foreign credentials. He was working as a day labourer on oil rigs, she was working at a dollar store to put her through night school to qualify as a pharmacists assistant.

[imouttahere]

225. That's good news on both fronts!

[Canuckistanian]

92. What's the phone number for Pizza Pizza?

Seriously, Canadian border guards used to ask that question to anyone they suspected of claiming to be Canadian.

It's just such an annoying and omnipresent commercial that almost every Canadian knows it. (At least in Ontario).

[SnowBack]

99. 9-6-7-11-11

Oh, sorry... Once a Torontonian, always a Torontonian!

I want GOOD pizza... The pizza here in California SUCKS!

:9

[Canuckistanian]

119. Ah, an exile...

You're welcome back anytime...
BTW, I'm from TO, actually Etobicoke (Actually Long Branch).

[u4ic]

128. Heck, I haven't lived in TO for 15 years

and STILL remember that damn #!

No Pizza Pizza in Alberta.

[Darth_Kitten]

157. never heard of it.

:shrug:

Never.

[Captain Hilts]

178. And that billboard at Bloor and Spadina...enough! nt

[Jackpine Radical]

113. Sorry. I think that's "Help Me, Eh?"

As an ex-Haywardite (born there) and Superiorite now living in Eau Claire, I'm up for any proposals that involve secession & joining our Great White Enemy to the north.

[CottonBear]

10. I don't know anyone, exept maybe Bu$hco people, who don't like Canada.

What's not to like about Canada?

[hogwyld]

11. Good!

Because that shows that Canada is an INDEPENDENT country with its own values. They don't want to be the 51st state in a corrupt, immoral country, won't march lockstep with the Hitler youth, * jr? Actually cares about it's citizens? It's just a matter of time before they innoculate themselves, and send us back to the third world.

[Benhurst]

13. No nation is a friend of BushAmerica. We are pirahs. NT

[cliss]

16. Well, that just begs the question -

who IS our #1 ally?

Pakistan?
Saudi Arabia?
Maybe Bush is warming up to Venezuela

[imouttahere]

19. Blair's government...but not the British people

[go west young man]

59. Ditto on that.... only Blair and company support the war in Iraq.

The majority of Britain is against it. And Canada is a great country. I only wish thier immigration laws were'nt so strick so I could move there.

[imouttahere]

61. Do you have a college degree? Any proficiency in French?

Or a vocational specialty? Go to the Immigration & Citizenship Canada website and take the online assessment. Who knows, you just might qualify.

[99Pancakes]

123. My understanding is this:

From The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), my husband, as a social worker, could pack his bags and walk right over the border. But me, as a teacher---I would have to get a Canadian credential. That would be like starting over. However, next week, there is a way too important Proposition on the November 8th election ballot in CA (Prop 74) that could allow a teacher to get fired in a snap--no more "due process" rights. If this passes, that new law, along with Shrubby's NCLB (No Child Left Behind), could send me packing with my "easy entry" husband.

Never say never.

[imouttahere]

159. I worked with teachers and administrators for 10 years....

and I never met one that thought there was any value to NCLB.

I hope you head north. I'm in California too, and there is always a chance that Prop 74 could pass. Hell, Ahnold got elected!

[99Pancakes]

209. Hope shines with last 2 polls

It was looking spooky, but as of Nov. 1st polls, prop.s 74 and 75 are running neck and neck in the race. That's the best news we've had yet in California. In a couple hours, my husband and I will be phone banking, trying to GOTV. We'll be doing this straight through until election day. Seems that it has gotten down to this: whoever gets their base out wins. Cross your fingers.

[imouttahere]

226. I applaud you!

This could very well be the last time I vote in the U.S.

[melody]

118. The American people don't support it either

So what do we mean by the USA or "Britain"?

We start falling into convenient Alpha primate dynamics when we deal with groups, and that has nothing to do with reason.

[reprobate]

156. POLAND! Surely you knew that. Don't forget Poland.

[TrogL]

193. Poland

Musn't forget Poland.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meganmonkey]

22. LOL, you may be on to something!

:rofl:

Welcome to DU, WenWorld1 !!

:toast:

[sonicx]

35. LOL

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if they made it illegal to leave a state to get an abortion.

[CatBoreal]

20. Meanwhile, in Canada...

We don't think much of the US either.

[imouttahere]

24. Oh, that's hilarious!

92% - I love it! If that isn't a resounding statement, I don't know what is!

[Ian David]

50. I don't blame them one bit. n/t

[enigma000]

23. 2% as an enemy?

Maybe they have a fear of hockey players. 2% is the same portion who no doubt see North Korea as an ally.

Yeah, I'd like to see who made it as a closer ally. Britain? Australia? Japan? maybe Israel.

[Polemonium]

172. I know right

that is nearly 6 million Canada hater's. I'm hoping that ain't the case, just sampling error or something.

Britain must be the new #1.

Can you see our founding fathers spinning in their graves yet?

What?: our biggest Ally is Britain, and we're on a joint empire building mission? What?

[Endangered Specie]

27. Im suprised people think of ANYONE as a #1 ally,

unless Dale Earnhart is on the ballot.



To us, here on DU, the 37 percent.

[AspenRose]

28. It was a Canadian, Margaret Atwood, who predicted the rise

of the United States christian fascists in "The Handmaid's Tale."

I FIERCELY defend Canada and Canadians. Love Canada. They have every right to be angry at this administration. History will vindicate them.

[imouttahere]

31. "History will vindicate them" - Wow, isn't that the truth!

I too fiercely defend Canada and Canadians.

[confludemocrat]

81. The Handmaids Tale: a classic for our times along w/ Oryx and Crake

OK, those are the only Margaret Atwood books I've read, but truly...

And they are written about the US or it's thinly-veiled at most.

[Orrin_73]

29. Canada, prepare for an invasion!!!

What was the reason for the 1812 war again, aha I know now. To make Canada a part of the good ole USA. It is actually not a bad idea!!!!! :evilgrin:

[imouttahere]

32. Instead, the blue states join Canada, leaving behind...

Jesusland!

[Orrin_73]

34. LOL, I like that

I dont know if you heard of the "League of the South" a seccecionist movement in the USA with many chapters around the country. They do not want to secede (irony), why not you might ask because if they secede then the blacks might outnumber them in the coming decade in the south. So they stay within the union.

[imouttahere]

49. Geez, their too stupid to know how to secede!

[WePurrsevere]

74. Sounds fairly good to me :-D I'd get to keep my home & be Canadian like...

my birth father was/is.

Off hand I can't think of anyone that dislikes Canadians. Certainly none of my family. Since childhood I've been attracted to and loved Canada (even before learning that my birth father was/is Canadian). My husband and I have both enjoyed the people we've met from there over the years. Like most others up in this area of NNY (we live only 3 or 4 miles as the crow flies from the Ontario part of Canada) we consider them to be friends and next door neighbors. B-)

If this poll is accurate (and I have my doubts) it's truly too bad that so many seem to believe BushCo's "if you're not with us, you're against us" BS propaganda. IME often it's your true friends that will tell you you're full of crap while your faux friends kiss your backside.

[imouttahere]

78. Exactament! But you could never get these BushBots....

to admit that the French were on the right side of the Iraq war argument. Maybe the Canadians or Germans, but never the French.

[sufrommich]

212. I'd go for that

Hell,you wouldn't even have to "relocate" Michigan.

[TrogL]

194. Can we burn down the White House

again?

[Village Idiot]

33. That's OK. Most Canadians are pretty sick of USAsians, too.

You guys don't say "EH" or "aboot" nearly enough, you don't know how to make poutine, you spell funny, your beer tastes like peepee and you really don't appreciate hockey enough.

Personally, I like most USAsians. Like most Canadians (and 46% of USAsians), however, I am really not that fond of your government.

[Davis_X_Machina]

38. Could we please be...

...the most populous, and westernmost Atlantic province, instead of an eastern protuberance upon Greater Massachusetts? It'd be way better to be the Sunny Southern Gateway to the States than Appalachia With Occasional Lobsters

[imouttahere]

41. Hee hee! But most populous?

Is Maine that heavily populated? Wouldn't Nova Scotia have a larger population? Never really thought about it.

[pretzel4gore]

43. hahahaha! fantastic map!

and with global warming, much of 'Jesusland' will soon be desert! the eagle will be replaced by a vulture, the red,white and blue stars and stripes with just plain old b&w stripes, with the jolly roger in the star corner!....lol
The jesus slanders can keep scalia and thomas, bushinc and haliburton, celine dion and bryan adams....

[imouttahere]

45. Nope, I'm afraid Quebec will claim Celine....

I do like some of her French stuff myself. And she is a very generous person too. But I'm not a big fan, just want to weigh-in on the "not hating Celine" side.

[whatever4]

46. hahaha

That was great! "poutine" now what the hell's a poutine?

Canada...do I have the energy to think seriously about moving to Canada...and would they take us? hmmm I like the cold. Better than the hot, anyway. And likely as not, Canada won't be as cold as it used to be, soon. Then, after the ice age, it won't matter one way or another.

What I really wonder is, what is Canada going to do, if the US continues on it's course and tries to run over you? Economically, with energy, militarily, and all the other nasty ways they have of ruining a nation or two.

And, in the end, would I, or my family, be willing and able to bear arms to defend it from the US? That one is REAL tricky.

[imouttahere]

48. Not tricky for me....

I think I was born to be Canadian, or perhaps European. Their values match what is in my heart, by and large.

[imouttahere]

82. BTW, Poutine is....

french fries, covered in cheese kurds and gravy. It doesn't sound very good, but trust me, it's fabulous. Especially if you can get the special St. Hubert Poutine gravy.

[Buns_of_Fire]

136. Fries, cheese curds, gravy. Got it.

Is that on the test? Are points taken off if you pour chili over it? Should I memorize Pizza Pizza's telephone number in Toronto? Do they care if your only French is "Voulez-vous couchet avec moi, sou soir?" (Blame Patti LaBelle for that.) My great-grandfather was Canadian, as was my grandmother -- does that help any?

Gotta do this right, you know. There are no Second Acts in American lives. (And I can't remember who originally said that -- was it Tom Wolfe? Crap, do I get more points off for being illiterate?)

I'm doomed. :banghead:

[imouttahere]

160. Actually, I once had Italian Poutine in Chicoutimi!

so chili might be a interesting variation on a theme.

My second act will be in Canada.

[nookiemonster]

202. It's outstanding!

Found out on a trip to Cold Lake, Alberta while in the service. Good stuff!

:thumbsup:

[imouttahere]

227. Cool user name, nookiemonster!

And nice to know they had Poutine in Alberta!

[Mikimouse]

37. Oh, Boo Hoo Hoo! We're nothing but a bunch of...

petulant crybabies!

[RayOfHope]

39. Who in the hell are they polling?

Myself or no one I know get asked these questions.

[imouttahere]

44. Must be a Faux News poll!

[Neil Lisst]

40. The feeling is mutual.

In 1997, Americans were a lot more welcome in Canada than now.

I've been to Canada on business many, many times, and no matter who the taxi or limo driver is, no matter where he came from originally, he's got an earful to give me about Bush and America.

Pakistan, Jordan, India, Somalia, Ethiopia - pick a nationality, and they drive cabs or limos from the Toronto airport to downtown hotels. The level of antipathy towards Bush and his stupid, arrogant, cowboy ways is palpable.

The irony with his cowboy routine is that this guy has never been on a horse, and would cry like baby if he stepped in a pile of horse shit and got his pretty boots messed up.

He's what we call a "drugstore cowboy," all hat and no cattle.


------------------------
libby's libby's libby's
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[imouttahere]

47. My experience is similiar....

whether Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, even Edmonton, the cabbies gave me an earful...but I was more than happy to engage and agree with them.

[Neil Lisst]

57. Me, too, although I'm nervous they may be working for Cheney.

As contractors through Halliburton, of course.

[Robert Cooper]

72. You are going to be very welcome here :-)

We're proud of our distinctive society. We're not yankee-wannabes. We're not a melting pot. We're the only country I know of that has had a province (state) actively trying to break away from the country without a war being fought over it. We're one of the few countries with two official languages (and good luck entering government if you can't speak both fluently).

We're one of a very few countries to recognize gay marriages, and Toronto hosts the largest gay pride parade in North America.

More helpful hints:
Alberta is our version of Texas.
Conservatives are our version of Republicans.
We've pretty much replaced the military with a diplomatic corp.

You'll hear a few Canadians (on American payrolls) talk about being more accomodating to America: ignore them. The rest of us do.

On the other hand:
We have very few checks and balances against government excess. I've often described our majority governments (as opposed to minority governments) as "democratically elected dictatorships where we get to pick our dictator for the next four-five years".
We've horribly abused our native population (google "Kashechewan" for the latest example), impoverished our rural communities here in Ontario (3 billion in unpaid services downloaded to the municipalities to pay for the provincial debt with our regressive property tax), cultural conflicts based on region (a near powerless East Coast vs a near-separatist Quebec vs a centrist-liberal Ontario vs a neo-republican West vs BC ).
When it comes to our relationship with America, get used to being a banana in a cage with a 900-pound gorilla.


On the other other hand:
We're loved pretty much anywhere we go.
People love coming here.
We're a defiant banana.

There's a lot to being Canadian. There's a lot still to do in Canada towards making this a better place for everyone. But really, there's nowhere else I'd rather live.

[imouttahere]

80. Well done, R Cooper...

I have no illusions about Canada being perfect, but Canada simply runs in my blood. And after reading "The Efficient Society; Why Canada is as Close to Utopia as it Gets" I felt my love affair and any additional rationale I needed was solidified. Now I just have to hope that everything with the immigration process goes smoothly. I have a job waiting for me, it's just the process that is standing in the way right now. BTW, the job is in Montreal. And yes, I do have some French proficiency. Plus the Quebec government will pay for my French lessons.

[Robert Cooper]

91. Ah 'Kaybek'

I lived in Montreal when I was a boy: Notre Dame de Gras and Laval Ouest. A lot has changed since then.

Quebec is the only province to invoke the "Notwithstanding clause", a notorious provision in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms that allows any federal or provincial government to abrogate our charter-protected rights. The Quebec provincial government used it to prevent public signs in Quebec from using any language other than French.

Meanwhile our street name signs in Toronto are in English and in whatever language is prevelant in the area (I think we have about thirty different languagse on our signs, perhaps someone knows better).

For a lot of us Quebec is like a sulky child who has learned to exploit a parent's love.

But I wouldn't worry too much about the immigration people. Our government just announced a need to increase the numbers of immigrants because we're not having enough babies to replace us. If you have a job waiting, it should be a cinch to get in.

Welcome :-)

[SnowBack]

102. This English Canadian understands the notwithstanding clause...

My husband is from Quebec city originally and is a STRONG Canadian... But he tells me of growing up in an almost completely French city, and not being able to get directions from bus drivers because they only spoke English... and if you wanted to get a job above entry level, you had to be English...

I have absolutely no problem with Quebec using the notwithstanding clause to protect the language... and sure there are lots of languages on Toronto streets... But English isn't a threatened language, there's no reason to protect it...

Oh, and it's Notre Dame de Grace, I think....

[Amonester]

127. Oui. It's also known as N.D.G here. LOL

And oui: the fact that about 6 million people wanting to preserve their language and their culture from being completely assimilated, as they are surrounded by some 300+ million of people of the most spoken language on earth (except for Chinese??) required using the notwithstanding clause. That doesn't prevent moi (as well as most of us) to try my best to politely answer any question about any direction to all visitors who politely addresses moi in English...

I admit it's not the same for everyone here, though, sadly (for some). Some people (a minority) just don't know how to speak English, and they're not even interested in learning how to. OTOH, most English speaking people in North America ain't interested in learning how to communicate in French, and it's in their right.

I guess sometimes these things "work" both ways...

[Robert Cooper]

133. I have to wonder...

how it would affect your tourism for people to learn they are supporting a regime that jails citizens for using English on public signs? If they realized all that 'french culture' they witness is artifically injected at the cost of fundamental human rights, is it still "cute"?

You would preserve your language by punishing those who use english? How about preserving whites by punishing blacks, preserving right-handedness by punishing left-handed people? Preserving Canada by using the notwithstanding clause to remove all voting rights from francophones?

How easy it is to use such logic to defend any denial of rights.

[SnowBack]

166. Regime? Jail? Oh, please...

As much as I do not like the PQ or BQ Governments, they were legally elected... They aren't "regimes"...

You do realize that the Quebec government offers all its services in French AND English, right? Doesn't really seem like a regime does it?

So I guess you think it should be fine to be able to use obsenities on signs? How about racist signs? Anti-Gay signs on stores?

English people in Quebec have schools, newspapers, radio stations, television stations, Government services... They don't sound like they have no "fundamental human rights"...

How easy it is to use the old "slippery slope" argument instead of dealing with the reality in Quebec...

[imouttahere]

171. Right on, SnowBack!

I have English-Montreal friends who spend their days using nothing but English, except maybe at work, which is why they are all bilingual. But even at work they move easily between French and English - it's a thing of beauty. I've never met an English-Montrealer who didn't appreciate that the French influence is what makes Montreal such a great city. That doesn't mean they would vote PQ, but they understand what really makes the city and province special, and then go about their private lives - in English, mostly.

[Robert Cooper]

180. So you'll support the denial of equal language rights?

That would make you welcome in Quebec if nowhere else in Canada.

[imouttahere]

182. Hmmm....I think you're overstating the issue....

If you can't simply read a street sign or shop sign in French, you probably shouldn't be living in Quebec anyway - keeping in mind, as SnowBack pointed out, that all services are provided in both languages. This is simply a non-issue with any English-Montrealer I've ever known, and I know a lot of them. Besides, as I understand the law, the French version just needs to be larger than the English version on a shop sign, for example. In some areas of Montreal (admittedly areas with significant English speaking populations), and even in other areas of Quebec, I have seen signs with both languages. Arret/Stop is quite common, just as one small example.

[Robert Cooper]

201. Again I must apologize

Apparently there is nothing wrong with my views, were this prior to a supreme court ruling in 1988 (!?!?!?). Looking up some information with which to answer you, I learned that in 1988 the supreme court ruled on the language law and, -somehow-, modified it.

Needless to say this is a surprise to me, and a shock (notwithstanding clause isn't supposed to face that kind of review, as far as I knew). I've more to read and more to learn before discussing this topic again. I feel a bit like I'm in some Twilight Zone story (he stepped out for pizza, and when he returned nothing was the same).

My apologies for comments that are in error. Apparently english is once again permitted on signs (and I suppose have been permitted since '88).

I think I'll go hug my son now (he is my son, right?) and my wife too (I do have a wife still, right?) Oh my reeling head.

<sigh>

[imouttahere]

223. You're a bigger man than I, R Cooper!

I was wondering if anyone, even on this site with American liberals and Canadians and Brits, etc, would admit that maybe they didn't know everything about a topic of discussion. I will readily admit I was just assuming that the law I read about several years ago, that the signs simply had to have French in larger letters/numbers, I didn't bother to look it up. I was just working from memory and over-simplifying.

[Robert Cooper]

230. Thank you

I've always felt that those who offer sincere apologies demonstrate that they are not so proud as to learn when they are wrong.

I -hate- being wrong, but even more I -hate- being too stupid to learn when I'm wrong.

Since I'd always thought the Notwithstanding clause could not be reviewed or modified by the courts, it was easy to assume that the language law as it exists today is no different than the one originally passed. Apparently I left the planet sometime in '88 and missed the news that would have corrected my error.

I tend to be a tad passionate and merciless when it comes to defending human rights.

[Amonester]

248. Thank you for the good words and welcome at all times here.

I am not saying (nor thinking) every single situation is fine around here. Far from it. But all in all, it's not different than other places, and sometimes it's better, or sometimes it's worst than many other locations on this "Space Ball" we all live on. I sincerely wish we will stay in this beau pays qu'est le Canada and I personally intend to vote non at the next referendum (if there is one). It's my personal choice, nothing more. Others can have their's, of course, and their choice is as valid as mine. If a substantial majority decide to vote oui then, I don't want to live anywhere else than ici, so I'll have to sort of try to "help" work it out with them, according to what International Law may define in those matters.

Merci!


Edit: wrong "tag" and... sp's (if some still remain: my appologies) :blush:

[Robert Cooper]

250. Your anglais is much better than my francais

Je suis parlez francais en petit peu. I speak french a little bit.

Thank you for your welcome. Given the error I made, you are most generous.

One of my fonder memories of living in Quebec was playing with the boy across the street. He was francophone, not a word of english. I was anglophone, not a word of french. Yet we'd play ball hockey together every day, he the Canadiens and I the Maple Leafs.

Despite diffferences in language and culture, people are just people with the same needs as everyone else. I wish we'd all treat others as we'd want to be treated were we in their shoes.

[SnowBack]

184. I took French since second grade...

I still speak it pitifully, but have been with my husband almost 20 years, so hear it often... I love the way he can go back and forth so easily...

I guess in some way I'm sort of bilingual... When he speaks on the phone with family, I can usually understand what's going on... and correct his stories if they're not right - (in English, but I always tell myself that at least I understand...) :-)

French is something that makes Quebec special, as well as New Brunswick, Southern Ontario, the Ottawa area, Northern Ontario and Manitoba... Actually, French makes ALL of Canada special...

I hope Quebec never actually separates... Both Quebec and Canada would lose if that happened...

[imouttahere]

187. I think your experience is similiar to a lot of folks....

whether in Quebec, or even in other parts of the country.

I would say you are at least partially bilingual, being able to understand a conversation is as important as anything, IMO. I'm sure you're better than me in that regard - I can pick up a French newspaper and have a high level of understanding, but because I don't live there yet, my comprehension of the spoken language is still fairly minimal. I have tapes of French-Canadian TV I can watch to keep it "in my ear" until I get there and then the Quebec govt will pay for my French lessons.

[Robert Cooper]

179. English is to obscenity, racism and homophobia as...

Interesting comparison you've chosen.

So English signs are comparable to "obscenities on signs", "racist signs" and "anti-gay signs", are they? Says a lot about the Quebecois attitude towards english-speaking Canadians, doesn't it? Does much to confirm my belief Quebec is no longer part of Canada and we'd be better off without La Belle Province.

The "reality in Quebec" is non-francophones are denied a fundamental human right to express themselves in their own language in public through the written medium.

How easy it is to dismiss the reality as well as the "slippery slope" in defense of injustice and the denial of equal rights.

We see Republicans doing the same all the time.

[Robert Cooper]

134. I have to wonder...

how it would affect your tourism for people to learn they are supporting a regime that jails citizens for using English on public signs? If they realized all that 'french culture' they witness is artifically injected at the cost of fundamental human rights, is it still "cute"?

You would preserve your language by punishing those who use english? How about preserving whites by punishing blacks, preserving right-handedness by punishing left-handed people? Preserving Canada by using the notwithstanding clause to remove all voting rights from francophones?

How easy it is to use such logic to defend any denial of rights.

[Robert Cooper]

135. I have to wonder...

how it would affect your tourism for people to learn they are supporting a regime that jails citizens for using English on public signs? If they realized all that 'french culture' they witness is artifically injected at the cost of fundamental human rights, is it still "cute"?

You would preserve your language by punishing those who use english? How about preserving whites by punishing blacks, preserving right-handedness by punishing left-handed people? Preserving Canada by using the notwithstanding clause to remove all voting rights from francophones?

How easy it is to use such logic to defend any denial of rights.

[Robert Cooper]

137. my apologies for the multiple copies

the net seemed to stall here, so I stopped the send and resubmitted.

Whoops.

[imouttahere]

164. Yes, the French language and culture must be protected....

it's a big part of what makes Quebec, and Canada, unique. I always use that "surrounded by 300 mil English speakers" in my arguments for protection. Glad I'm not the only one.

[Amonester]

216. Merci et bienvenue ici (Montreal). Thank you and welcome here.

I find you have a very good knowledge of the issues about what is really going on in regard to the peaceful cooperation between most English and French people around here. It's not an easy subject to grasp. I personally want this province to stay in the federation, but if a 10% plus margin of citizens (and taxpayers) would collectively end up voting for the political sovereignty of this part of Canada in a referendum, I, as well as all who'd wish to stay here, would then accept to participate in the discussions, and the choices that would have to be made. No country is perfect, but there are International Laws in these matters that I'm not too well aware of so, I won't elaborate on them.

ALL English speaking people are very welcome here at all times. There R too many myths about them not being so. I urge people to document their assertions and direct readers with links or book references before posting things that would not make sense when compared to what's going on in reality.

True: French people want to protect the language. It could also be true that English people in a few places also could want to protect their language from being "too much" surrounded by Spanish, although I don't have enough time on my hand to document that with links here so, that's why I used the conditional expression ('could').

Best wishes for you'll have a very good time working here!

Bienvenue. :hi:


On edit: 2 spellings (apologies for my difficulties in English: I hope everybody will understand. 200,000-250,000 in the streets here protesting against neocons' illegal invasion on Feb. 15, 2003, and I was there in the deep cold on that day too.)

[imouttahere]

228. Un GROS merci!

Mon plan, quand j'arrive à Montréal, est de se positionner dans un vrai voisinage français. J'ai le besoin de me plonger.

Please excuse my French, Amonester. Thank you for recognizing my knowledge of the political and social realities of Montreal and the Province of Quebec. I have worked hard on it. I read La Presse, Le Droit, Le Soleil on-line every day. I'm also "attempting" to read a book by Gilles Ducceppe (lots of translating going on) to better understand the Pequistes position. I have read a book by Rene Levesque in English that was also helpful. And of course, my friends who live there are a big help in understanding what's going on. They are a great mix of Francophones and Anglos.

Please feel free to correct me or advise me as necessary, and let's stay in touch.

[Amonester]

247. Sorry if I was way too busy at work yesterday that I couldn't reply

earlier than too late in the evening like I did. Your knowledge of the French language is growing well. I know it's a real difficult one to master so I can understand the hardship of learning how these gender rules apply to -- often beautiful -- words! ;)

I did send you a "Private Message" but I'm not sure if you have seen it yet, so I just want to say it's OK (if we can stay in touch using the DU Private Message service to start with and maybe e-mail thereafter).

If I can help you by giving you advices on any topic, including those about my natural language, I'll be very happy to do so.

(PM's or "Private Messages" notifications appear as "flashing" red text near the upper left corner of the main "Discussion Forums" screen).

Amicalement,
Claude

[Robert Cooper]

129. Oui, NDG

Thank you for correcting my spelling. We lived in a small house on Randall. That's where I first went to school (forgotten the name, but I recall it being at the end of the street).

As for "protect the language", I have always had a problem denying people the use of their mother tongue, whether it be private speech or public speech such as signage.

And let's be clear about the notwithstanding clause: it is not a protector of rights, it is a mechanism to deny Canadians fundamental rights such as equal treatment before the law, while creating (or preserving) special rights for a minority. It can be used to deny men, or women, or anglophones, their rights in Quebec. How far do we go to "protect the language"? An injustice does not right an injustice. And protecting "the language" does not justify the denial of fundamental human rights like the use of language.

Your husband may have had trouble finding people who used French, but -no one- passed a law denying him that right, or the right to put up a sign in French. Nor has anyone passed a law anywhere in Canada to deny him the use of French. Indeed, it's been about thirty years since anyone wanting to progress in the Canadian government been able to without french, regardless of whether they serve in Quebec or Alberta.

Yet Quebec still feels justified denying fundamental human rights to non-francophones. No language deserves to survive if it requires imprisoning those who are guilty of using their mother tongue on a sign. No Canadian deserves a criminal record for using English in Quebec.

And you have no idea how willing some of us are to see Quebec leave confederation because of policies like this. Sometimes I think it's a shame the rest of Canada isn't given a referendum to decide the matter as it would end the psychological blackmail in a heart beat. We're made of sterner stuff than our government would let on.

[imouttahere]

163. I assure you that Quebec city is NOT the same....

the people who are offering me a job in Montreal have expressed their desire for me to manage an office for them in Quebec, and they have indicated that I must be completely fluent in French to get that job. Quebec is solidly French speaking now, but from my experience attending international conferences, companies that were from Quebec were capably bilingual. The Quiet Revolution is a smashing success.

[imouttahere]

161. Merci bien, R Cooper!

Interesting you mention the alternate languages on the signs in TO - in Montreal's Chinatown, they do have the signs in French and Chinese. Pretty cool.

Was the "Gras" a dig or play on words??? LOL

[Robert Cooper]

203. Actually a failure on my part to re-read what I'd typed.

Had I paid more attention I'd have spelled it correctly (as I did with "Laval Ouest", which we knew as "Laval West" when i was a kid).

Notre Dame de Grace ("Our Lady of Grace") was where I lived when I was 6-7, and there's been a lot of years between then and now. For the most part my family has referred to it as NDG but I was trying to show off my french (hoo boy).

[Neil Lisst]

85. My cartoon partner is CANADIAN.

And I got there a lot.

And I have Canadian relatives.

I love the snow skiing in Toronto, too!

[Robert Cooper]

93. Nice toons

Winter usually finds me huddled indoors with a good fire and a warm computer.

However, my boy is 3 1/2 and I seriously doubt he'll appreciate my approach ;-)

Looks like 'ol dad is going to have to build snow men and snow forts and defend himself against a flurry of snowballs.

I can think of worse ways to spend my time :-)

[Neil Lisst]

121. That's the place to be, if you have kids.

They will never be 3 and a half again, so get all of it you can.

Thanks on the toons. We sure enjoy creating them. We hover over every detail. The whole sunshine reflecting in the corner was an issue on today's. You'd never know it, but that was the one thing we studied the most in the presentation. Do we have sunshine coming in low to imply morning, and if so, does it communicate same?

See what I mean here.

[Robert Cooper]

138. You did very well

I like the halo effect around the reflection of the sun as well...adds realism to the image.

As for getting as much as I can of my son. My wife works from home (telecommuting) and I am a full-time Dad (think "Mr. Mom" only on permanent assignment ;-). With nine dogs, two cats and a forest that stretches all the way to James Bay, we really have the best of all worlds (if we don't look at the bank balance).

There isn't enough money in the world to tear me away from this.

[Neil Lisst]

195. Wow, you're at North Pole, practically!

Why does everyone in Toronto with a country house to the north call it their "cottage?"

[Robert Cooper]

206. LOL, 45 degrees of latitude, actually

give or take a few minutes. We're half way to the NP.

Our seasons are interesting:
Jan-March: snow (mid Jan to mid-feb are the coldest weeks)
end of March: thaw begins and canada geese start returning along with the loons (the birds, not Canadians staying in Florida ;-)
April: leaves start budding, black fly season starts.
May: days are warm but nights are cold till the third week Black flies are replaced by mosquitos. Still, it's one of the nicest months of the year.
June: Hot days and comfortable nights. Deer flies and horse flies start showing up.
July: wretchedly hot and muggy most days. Mosquitos start to thin out (but are never absent) and the deer flies, horse flies are a problem.
Aug: See July till the end of the month. End of the month we see more flies and almost no deer flies or horse flies. Mosquitos still around but not as bad.
Sept: another nice month. Like May in reverse. We get several weeks of Indian summer and by the end of the month the leaves are starting to turn. Cluster flies start looking for places to stay for the winter.
Oct.: Comfortably cool and usually wet. One of the few non-snow months where there are almost no bugs to bother you. Nice time to wander the forests (but wear bright clothing to avoid hunters).
Nov.: cooler and the first snow fall. Soesn't usually stay till the end of the month (if then).
Dec.: permanent snow by Christmas. Freezing rain can make driving hazardous and we get about a week of it at some point in Dec.

six months of cold days (oct to march), six months of warm days (april to sept), 3-4 months of snow (dec-mar), 1-2 months of muggy weather (July - Aug).

it's fun driving from here to Toronto (about 2.5 hours drive) in winter. Leaving three-foot snowdrifts here, I find little more than slush when I get to TO.

As for "cottage" vs "country house", I suspect the "cottage" is more low-key, less ostentatious. Most "cottages" were not year-round dwellings, more like a cabin than a house. Of course a lot of people fix them up for their retirement. Now there is more of a mix but the name lingers.

[Lisa]

52. although, to be honest, we did have several cross-border conflicts

I was reading an historical account of the 1812 battles, and it was really horrible -- like a foreshadowing of the US Civil War (there were a lot of families with members on both sides of the border). Our relationship moves in cycles, and I'm sure that things will change for the better soon. The most amazing thing to me is that, even after outright warfare in the past, we have learned to deal with our differences more constructively. There are many places in the world where this has not been the case.

[imouttahere]

62. If anyone is capable of destroying that spirit of cooperation...

between Canada and the US, it's BushCo.

[Lisa]

67. I want to believe that it is much stronger than Dubya and his cronies ...

Our countries have been around for centuries -- and even before European settlement, the aboriginals traded and moved back and forth. It's kind of like what Stephen Jay Gould said, in his very moving thank-you to Canada for welcoming stranded travellers on 9/11. He noted that a small number of people can try to erase the goodwill created by millions of good deeds, over generations -- but that we outnumber such people and that our will shall in the end prevail.

We have a tiny island off the BC coast which used to be a leper colony. If you need a place to put Georgie and his pals after the indictments come down, I'm sure we could oblige.

[imouttahere]

70. That would be great, but on second thought....

anywhere in beautiful B.C. would be too good for BushCo, even if it was a leper colony.

[screembloodymurder]

54. Hell the majority of Americans includes Canadians.

It's those 30,000,000 up North that think we're their enemy.

[Lisa]

55. For Canadians, this has been like watching your best friend ...

... get married to a good-for-nothing abuser who steals her savings (to give to his sleazy pals) -- and forbids her to see her pals and co-workers.

We in Canada are hoping that your divorce from the Bush Administration comes soon!

[imouttahere]

65. Question is, will we just replace BushCo....

with another abusive spouse. I wouldn't be surprised...

[melody]

116. WE aren't doing anything

We are being jerked around by a political mechanism which is taking us over while skillfully making everyone blame US for our undoing. When we're in ruins, the big boys will just move on to the next country without a firewall. And then you'll see yourselves going through what we are now.

A little over-the-border civility and respect toward *each other* (both ways) as a distinct culture and not merely as representative pawns of warring political entities, might be in order.

[Robert Cooper]

73. Never said better

That's -exactly- what it feels like!

[screembloodymurder]

104. I like the analogy.

Hang in there Canada.

[slackmaster]

63. It's about fucking time people woke up about this.

Those snowbirds are gonna nuke us the moment we turn our backs on them.

The Canadian Nuclear Threat is real. Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!

[hogwyld]

66. World no longer views Amerika

As a worthy nation. I am truly suprised that after the 2nd stolen election, the world didn't just kick us out of the U.N., boycott everything we sell, and basically blockade the entire country until the country saw the errors of it's ways and vote Democratic.

[imouttahere]

68. Amen to that, a little tough love!

Actually, the whole world needs to boycott all the repuke/conservative supporting businesses...change the economic landscape and you change the political landscape. It's the only real power we have left.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. So.... who exactly, ARE our allies?

Poland? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?

Actually, the fact that the average american understands the extent to which we're alienating everyone else shouldn't be all that surprising.

[imouttahere]

75. Most of them don't care if we are alienating ourselves...

because the repukes have them believing that we can go it alone if we have to...

[NanceGreggs]

76. I'm an American living in Toronto, Canada

And LOVIN' IT!!!

When I first came up here in the 'seventies, all I could think about was going back to NYC. It took a long period of adjustment, but the way things have turned out, I consider myself lucky.

For most of the time I've been here, I was always asked, "Why would you leave the US to live HERE?" The Canadian dream was to get a Green Card and live in the States.

Of course, that has all changed post-BushCo's selection to office.

My son (also American) moved back to the States five years ago. It's better for him business-wise, but he often talks about wanting to come back. And everyone he meets asks: "Why would you leave Toronto to live HERE?" Luckily, he's very successful; otherwise, he wouldn't be able to afford the HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUMS he has to pay down there.

When Clinton was in office, I felt like there was one big party going on down there all the time. I used to visit family and friends in the States, and not want to come back here.

But within a few months of Bush in office, I heaved a sigh of relief that I am living in a civilized country, where gay marriage is accepted and no one loses their life savings due to medical expenses.

Come on up, folks -- we'd be happy to show you around!!

P.S. The winter isn't any different here than it was back in New York, and as for crime -- I live right downtown and still leave my doors unlocked when I go shopping in the 'hood.

[imouttahere]

79. I'm truly happy for you, NanceGreggs...

you made the right move, at the right time. As good as things were when Clinton was in office, I still had real misgivings about how we approached life. The Canadian way of life speaks to what I believe in, what's in my heart. Peace, order and good government.

[NanceGreggs]

84. Are you really going through the immigration process?

When I came up here, it was pretty stringent, but workable. I have SO MANY American friends here, too -- some still here from their draft-dodging days during Viet Nam.

I can tell you that when I first came up here (in 1974), things were much different here -- hence my desire to back to NYC. Stores couldn't open on Sundays, bars had to be closed early, etc. It all seemed so straight-laced and conservative.

But now it seems we've surpassed the States in many areas. My son keeps complaining about the never-ending bureacracy that surrounds everything down there -- like renewing a driver's license, which he used to be able to do here on-line.

Although marijuana has yet to be legalized, it is not the BIG DEAL it is in most States. And of course, we've forged ahead with things like gay marriage, gay adoption, etc. I don't remember the stats anymore, but I remember that when I first moved up here, Canadians were bemoaning how many murders had taken place, country-wide, in one year -- it was LESS than the number of murders reported in NYC in a week.

If you're serious about moving here, I would highly recommend Toronto. Clean, safe, a fantastic mix of old Victorian and deco buildings side-by-side with modern skyscrapers -- really beautiful! And TO is still, to date, the most culturally diverse city in the world (a fact Torontians are very PROUD of). We have a Chinatown, a Greek area, Italian, Spanish, Finnish -- the list goes on.

Think about it!!! :hi:

[imouttahere]

87. Your description of Toronto sounds like me describing....

Montreal, which is where a job is waiting for me, but also where I left my heart. As much as I have enjoyed my visits to Toronto and Vancouver, Montreal has become like a second home for me. I was fortunate enough to travel there (and TO & Van) on business numerous times in my previous job/career. I became fast friends with one of my clients and now they are offering me a job, but also want me to attain permanent resident status. I even dated a French-Canadian woman when I was traveling there regularly.

I want to thank you for your willingness to discuss this immigration thing - it's great to get an expat's perspective. You should be proud of Toronto - it is an amazing city. My first time there, I was enthralled with that architectural diversity, and was soon after beguiled by the cultural diversity as well. Then I went to Montreal for the first time, and not only do they have the Chinese, Italian, Greek, etc areas, but the French influence just takes it up a notch for me, not to mention the Haitian influx has added that flavor of the islands to the mix.

[catmother]

98. hey sis -- was wondering where

you were. just warm up the weather like it is here in phoenix -- about 86 today. went out and rode around with the top down on my car. it was heaven.

[NanceGreggs]

106. Hey, sis!!

Went off-line to get some work done -- just came back on. I guess the 'Canada' discussion thread was a likely place to look for me!

As for the weather, right now it's cool and foggy -- the perfect Hallowe'en night! The problem is I DON'T WANT IT TO WARM UP!! I LOVE the fall and winter, so I'm in hog heaven right here!!

:hi:

[catmother]

107. i'm in hog heaven too

the summer is past and now we have 3 nice seasons to look forward to. it does get cold here in the winter. the mornings and evenings can go as low as the 40s and if it's cloudy, it's pretty cold. i do have summer clothes and winter clothes and in-between.

you gonna stick around for a while. john just gone home so i'll probably take a break and spend some time with him, but i'll check back.

[NanceGreggs]

111. Just for a while, CatMother ...

... I'll be off at 9:00 pm (EST) for "Prison Break" -- I understand it's Scooter Libby's FAVOURITE SHOW these days!!!!!!!!!!

[catmother]

112. okay sis maybe we'll meet up tomorrow. n/t

[enigmatic]

89. Me too

Been up here 5 years this coming July, and although I'll always be an American Citizen, Canada is home for me now. I love it here, and although I'll come back to the US to visit, I'll never move back...

[ninkasi]

77. I love Canada

Every Canadian I've ever met has been warm and friendly, and more than willing to step in when people need them. I don't know why any American would have anything but good things to say about Canada, of all places.

[Psephos]

86. In other news, Jen no longer regards Brad as No. 1 squeeze n/t

[AZBlue]

88. The U.S. has allies?

I thought W got rid of all of them. Must have missed one.

[triguy46]

90. Of Course we have allies!!!! They are there when we need them...

or a guarantee of foreign aid...

Our longstanding friends the Poles, the Italians and other FREEDOM LOVING COUNTRIES who have joined with us to FREE the Iraqanians! These are our allies!!! Not those wimpy, gay loving, frenchified, canadians!!!

[Robert Cooper]

96. who are in Afghanistan because...

-you- were attacked.

We're a nation governed for over ten years by a centre-left-wing party, currently aligned with a party further to the left. Since when have we insulted democrat sensibilities?

It's not our fault Bushbaby lied his way into warring against Iraq. Nor is it our fault his idiot policies have made America not only the target of increasing numbers of terrorists but the pariah of the western world. We tried to dissuade him, but who was listening?

"...wimpy, gay loving, frenchified, canadians!!!" - you neglected to mention "and proud of it!!!"

[SnowBack]

239. I sure hope you're being sarcastic....

Cuz your post sure doesn't appear that way...

[Canuckistanian]

94. Whew! Maybe we'll go back to being ignored again.

Having attention paid to you by the US is not what it used to be.

[Robert Cooper]

97. We've always been the banana

stuck in a cage with a 900-pound gorilla.

The question is merely a matter of whether it will peel us or squeeze us ;-)

[hogwyld]

101. To save yourselves

You should take these actions: Let us suffering progressives relocate as political refugees. Seal off the border to minimize further contamination,and then we'll wait out the storm together until this country comes to it's senses!

[Robert Cooper]

131. We can trade ;-)

We'll send Harper and his gang south in exchange for Teddy Kennedy, the Clintons and any DUer who needs sanctuary.

[imouttahere]

167. I like that! I like that a lot!

[IChing]

95. If you are interested World View Poll a report from April 2005

some charts:






http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=800 link

A ton of data and info in the report many pages and many more charts.

[Robert Cooper]

139. More than half of us...

think America should be more religious???

That can't be right. I wonder who they polled for that?

[IChing]

148. More that half of Americkans not Canadians

which I think might be true since many amerikans don't believe or even understand the theory of evolution.

I assumed you meant Canadians by your profile talking about "we"

Canadians view is 38-35 hardly a majority of either viewpoint
I left the link in the above thread for your analysis.

[Robert Cooper]

207. thanks for the clarification and the link

[Robert Cooper]

210. The first table at the link paints a grim picture`

The only people listed who view America more favourably than China are the Poles (62-36) and Canada (59-58). Everyone else prefers the Chinese =8-o

And reading that table on "religiousity" it seems my interpretation was right. 38% of Canadians think America isn't religious enough, 35% think it too religious.

I suppose it depends upon how one defines "religious". if we define the fundies as "political" and not "religious", the 38% makes sense. If we define the fundies as "religious" then the 35% makes sense ;-)

[JVS]

100. My propaganda for a free Quebec is finally taking hold!

Improve your image Canada, let Quebec go free!

[SnowBack]

105. Quebec has always been free to go...

They voted to STAY with Canada in the referendum.... Propaganda is the right word for what you're advocating...

In fact, one of the leading hard-core separatists recently came out in favour of NOT separating...

So you just keep on with your propaganda... cuz Canada's image is just fine....

[imouttahere]

168. Just like the U.S. would struggle without California....

so too would Canada without Quebec.

[SnowBack]

170. Quebec is one quarter of Canada

Canada would be a much poorer place without Quebec...

[JVS]

177. The vote was rigged by alowing non-Quebecers (i.e anglophone occupiers)...

to vote.

[SnowBack]

214. Anglophone occupiers? LOL

There are plenty of Quebecois who are proud to be Canadian along with being Quebecois...

[JVS]

222. Those Fucking Quislings!

[imouttahere]

237. In hockey, they call the Sox fan....

a shit disturber!

[Robert Cooper]

132. They've got -us-...

right where they want us. Why would they leave?

This whole "give us more or else" thing is getting real old real fast. I think most of us are ready to chuck 'em out and wash our hands of the whole mess. It has totally distorted the balance confederation was supposed to create.

[SnowBack]

169. Glad most of us WANT them to stay...

"Most of us" aren't ready to chuck em out and wash our hands of the whole mess...

Thank God...

[Robert Cooper]

181. I'd like to see a poll on that

I seriously doubt "most of us" want to keep Quebec the way it is. The bribery to keep Quebec has gotten so out of hand even the Federal politicians are cashing in.

[leesa]

103. What kind of ally won't kill brown people for sport when we say so!

So many Americans are so whacked out of their minds.

[melody]

108. The problem is in the rhetoric and past history

There is a lot of bad blood between the US and Canada that goes back many years. There is a lot more bad blood between the US and Canada than there is between the US and our other North American neighbor, Mexico, and there's a lot there. Even while Clinton was in office, there was a decidedly large anti-American trend in Canada, just as there is a small but vocal anti-anybody-but-the-UK trend in the US. In fact, there's the old smug saying -- "Canada is malignantly aware of the US and America is benignly ignorant of Canada". Well, that trend is now being balanced on our side, I'm afraid, if no for reason than cross-border rhetoric.

For the same reason our loud mouths spew verbage, the Canadian anti-American rhetoric often comes out AS anti-Americanism... not just anti-Bushism. The words used are often similar to the old terms used - you Americans this, you Americans that, as if 280 million people could possibly be generalized about with any degree of accuracy. It sweeps up the rest of us'ns who are Kerry voting Democrats and other non-RW'ers in its wake.

I have lots of friends and associates in Canada. I have a great deal of respect for Canada and its culture. But I have to say, if I were to move to another country, my first choice would not be Canada (though it would have been many years ago, without hesitation). I sense a great deal of hostility toward Americans as people...as individuals... that I just don't feel as distinctly with other nationals. I wouldn't feel as welcomed, shall we say, as I might in some areas of Mexico. I say this as a redneck-Cherokee person, too.

I treat people as individuals. I make a conscious effort to see past my own prejudices (we all have them). However, if we're talking about trends and social attitudes (rather than political), I have to say no, I don't think Canada is an aggregate ally to any great extent, nor has it been in a number of years. Why that is and how it is, is another matter entirely.

[twaddler01]

109. I do!

Canada is first on my list to move to because of this crap here in the US...thanks to Georgie...

[superconnected]

110. I still view Canada as our number 1 ally.

My whole family does.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

114. Canada IS our #1 ally!

Our enemies are the guys who say nothing about the Dumbyass misadministration, and those who support them. They secretly laugh as the United States flushes itself down the toilet.

Those who are outraged by the smirking fool are our truest friends.
I'm grateful for their anger.

[Dudley_DUright]

115. This makes me profoundly sad

:-(

Even though I am not a Canadian, my DU cartoon alter ego is, and I always have had the utmost respect for our neighbors to the north. Bush has turned the world against us, and apparently now us against even our closest allies.

[Cha]

117. I fucking LOVE Canada..they

didn't ask me! Who the hell did they ask..chimp's cronies?

[djg21]

120. My guess . . .

is that most people queried just forgot about Canada! Canada is considered the 51st State more or less. You can't be allied with yourself.

[tabasco]

122. Not this American!

Canada is our best friend!

Goddamn republicans fuck everything up!

[Theduckno2]

124. My memory is a little fuzzy but wasn't it Canadians who......

at significant danger to themselves hid US citizens in their embassy in Tehran?

Sympathy is cheap: Everyone is sympathetic when fire destroys your home, but a true friend is the one who takes you in.

To think that over half the people I see every day feel that way. Not me! You're still No. 1 with me.

[Robert Cooper]

232. Good memory

Yes we did. We gave them fake Canadian passports and got them out of the country.

But you know, I'd like to think almost any country would have done that for them. It was a hell of a situation and everyone knew it. What kind of heartless individual would have turned them away?

[AnneD]

249. I remember that too.....

Canada is always number one in my heart. Bush? Well he is just number 2;) Say hubby and I are seriously thinking about relocation. I am a nurse he works security, speaks 17 languages and is a muscian (sitar). Where do you start?

[Robert Cooper]

251. Well, I started by being born here ;-)

Surprisingly I've never been asked this question, so I've never done the research. But contacting your nearest Canadian embassy or consular office would be a good start. You could also visit www.cic.gc.ca, the Canadian government's website for citizenship and immigration. You might also want to investigate climate, economy and stability (bearing in mind Quebec is likely to vote on separation from Canada in the near future). Road maps will give you a good idea of how convenient it is to get around, as well as how close you can get to our provincial parks and such.

If you're really serious, I'd recommend your next vacation be a fact-finding journey across Canada, looking for the kind of community you'd like to live in. Or target an area to get to know it better, if you have someplace specific in mind.

The more you know, the happier you'll be with your choice.

[AnneD]

252. Well, unless I can be born again (and Momma won't comply)

that option is not open. However I googled a gov site. I have been through Western Canada and loved it. I think city life will be best for us. We have friends so we will be able to take an extended looksies. Toronto, Calgary, or Edmonton are possible site-but really, I left my heart in White Horse years ago....

[Pachamama]

125. Sometimes your best friend is the one that tells you what others won't...

This is how I see Canada...they are the best friend that says "Quit the Bullshit" when they see it. They will say NO when they see that their friend is doing something wrong that they disagree with. I can only say that the US CITIZENS have no better friend than Canada. The Bush Administration is another story...Then again, BushCo. has managed to turn away practically everyone in the world. When I speak to my Canadian friends, they are just stunned watching what is taking place here. They love us, are worried about us, and they are there for us, but they are also shaking their heads in disbelief and wondering how the hell most of us could be so asleep and unaware that a majority of us voted these people in not just once, but twice (ok, I realize that statement is up for debate in terms of "voting").

In any event, I love Canada...I quite literally have never met a Canadian I didn't like...some of the nicest people on this planet....

My husband and I are in the process of looking at buying property in Canada....It's our Plan B.....

[imouttahere]

186. Might want to ramp up that Plan B....

Now is a great time if you need to go through the immigration process.

[Pachamama]

215. That's Plan C....Plan B is actually underway...

Plan B is buying property in Canada which we are in the process of. It serves two purposes: 1) a place to go when the shit hits the fan and 2) it moves assets/money out of the US into another country and out of the grasp of the US Govt.

Plan C is the actual immigration process....hubby and I have both consulted an immigration attorney and we both "qualify" (via that test requirement) for the immigration process scoring.

What is going on is very dismaying in our country....that is why we are doing this. My grandparents escaped Nazi Germany because they had property outside of Germany and assets. I never thought I'd have to consider repeating their move....

[imouttahere]

234. Wow! Sounds like you folks are ready....

for just about anything. It is indeed a shame that we feel we have to do these things, but such is the state of the country today. For me, it isn't about staying and fighting anymore - it's about the idea that Canadian society speaks to what I believe in, what a society should strive for as just. In the U.S., it's getting to the point where it doesn't feel like we even have a society, just a bunch of individuals fending for themselves in a severely un-balanced playing field.

[brainshrub]

145. Your fucking kidding me???!!!

Any number that is lower that 90% is ridiculous! Canada is the best neighbor a country could hope for, I'm ashamed for 52% of my fellow Americans.

[ebal]

146. Canada is small

The poll may just be a wording issue.

Canada is the population of about 2 Floridas (and probably has a military that is smaller than the Florida National Guard)

It's similar to you needing to move and calling your friends to help move. Your #1 choice is going to be the largest people you know to help with the heavy lifting.

[brainshrub]

149. Do you think that without the US, Canada is would be a weak nation?

News-flash for you: Canada already does a lot of heavy lifting. The RW loves to belittle Canada whenever they can because it is an example of how Liberal policies create a better society.

I suggest you read this DU article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/12/10_canada.html

"Without the U.S., Canada is essentially Honduras, but colder and much less interesting" - Tucker Carlson

The bow-tied wonder also added that "Canada needs the United States. The United States does not need Canada." In reality, Canada has the world's eighth-largest economy and eighth-largest trade surplus. Canadian consumers are vital to the U.S. economy because Canada is its top export market and accounts for nearly 30 percent of all U.S. exports.

Carlson may have it back-wards as to which country needs the other more, since Canada provides one-fifth of U.S. imports that are either used in the production process or directly consumed and is the single largest supplier of energy to the U.S, supplying 88% of its natural gas imports, 17% of its oil (more than any other country) and almost 100% of its electricity imports.

Carlson must have forgotten that it was Canadian power that saved Silicon Valley and his hometown of San Francisco from blackouts during the peak of the California electricity crisis.

Far from being Honduras, Canada outperformed the U.S. in job growth between 2000-2003, growing by 5.6% compared to negative 1.4%. While confronted with the same recession, Canada used tax cuts targeted towards the middle class to create a stimulus while still maintaining their budget surplus.

In contrast, the Bush administration's tax cuts had minimal stimulus effect and replaced a record surplus with a record deficit. As a result, today "loonie" is not only the nickname for the Canadian dollar, but aptly describes U.S. economic policy.

"I think if Canada were responsible for its own security would be invaded by Norway" - Tucker Carlson

Canada is 15th worldwide in defense spending and eighth among the 26 NATO nations (outspending Norway more than 2-to-1); and exceeds the U.S. in foreign aid as a percentage of GDP. Canada also is one of the top contributors to the United Nations and has provided over 100,000 soldiers to peacekeeping operations.

Noting that the U.S. graciously allows Canada "to exist on the same continent," Ms. Coulter was appalled that it would be so disloyal as to fail to support the preemptive invasion of Iraq and warned that we can take "them over so easily."

In doing so, Coulter conveniently ignored the fact that it was Canada's large troop presence in Afghanistan that permitted the U.S. to divert forces to Iraq, and that Canada fought alongside the U.S. in WWI, WWII, Korea, Desert Storm and Kosovo. Coulter also should remember that the last time the U.S. tried to take over Canada they ended up burning down the White House in retaliation.

"Canada's essentially ... a made-in-Taiwan version of the United States" - Tucker Carlson

Give the Taiwanese their due, since according to leading indices Canada beats the U.S. in life expectancy, quality of life, environmental sustainability, press freedom, opportunity for women, education spending, business innovation and beer; while having a lower crime, divorce and infant mortality rate. Canada also provides universal health coverage; while the United States spends a higher percentage of GDP on health care but still leaves over 43 million uninsured.

In addition, Vancouver was ranked second among world cities in Mercer Consulting's latest quality of life survey and in which the top thirty cities included five Canadian cities but only two American cities.

The State Department describes the American-Canadian relationship as the closest and most extensive in the world. As Harry Truman explained, this strong bond between our two great countries is not just "through the happy circumstance of geography is compounded of one part proximity and nine parts good will and common sense."

[ebal]

154. No

Just saying on a simple poll there could be a number of reasons for the results.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html

has the listings on military budget and populations among other items.

The Canadian military budget is about 2.6% of the US budget. So most people probably would think that amount is in round off error and might not be noticed when compared with the US being on it's own, therefore maybe not the #1 ally you'd think to call first.

Most people think of an ally as someone that will lend military assistance.

[brainshrub]

165. Umm, you might be right about that.

Good point.

[TrogL]

198. There is a complicated relationship between the Canadian and US military

We're both in NATO and share NATO responsibilities (and standards).

US troops routinely train on Canadian soil.

I live just down the street from an Canadian air base and there's often US planes parked there or at the municipal airport.

[bunkerbuster1]

147. Way to go, Neocon Death Cult.

You couldn't win the war in Iraq, you couldn't establish a Pax Americana. Nope.

But you could, apparently, get a significant number of American citizens to regard Canada as something less than a "close ally."

Great work, guys. That's real helpful.

[Strawman]

150. Canada is the best

Anyone who lives by Canada knows that.

[barb162]

151. Yes, Canada is wonderful and so are Canadians

[Darth_Kitten]

155. Don't trust ANYTHING you read in the National Post.

This is laughable... :)

National Post is a stridently biased, right wing rag. Next. :D

[peacetalksforall]

162. Not friendly isn't the issue. The issue is that Canada is one of the

four countries who plan to take over the world with the U.S., U.S., and Australia. They are an Echelon country - spying in unison and partnership on the world for monkey? business? (They are not doing it for the little people).

[barb162]

174. huh? got a link or two on that

I think China is beating them to it.

[JVS]

192. You listed U.S twice, whose the 4th?

[Renew Deal]

185. Let's take over Canada

Let's take the land that's truly ours. I support a one continent, one country policy. Hey Mexico, You're NEXT!!!

:silly:

[savemefromdumbya]

188. Canada has 9/11 info that US wants and they won't budge

[buzzard]

200. Do you have a link I never heard this before.n/t

[zara]

190. Many speak French! Nuff said?

: )

Exile me to B.C.!

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tiggeroshii]

204. BLAME CANADA, BLAME CANADA!!!

For all the violence their media inflicts onto the minds of our children every day!

:breaks into south park song:

"Blame Canaada!!! "

:-)

[Generator]

205. My God that means 2% of Americans are their own enemy

And don't even know it. Oh wait. It's higher than that.

We can hope the 2% were being funny. But maybe not. Probably unsure where Canada is. Thinks it's next to Vietnam.

[imouttahere]

238. You hit the nail on the head there, Generator....

it's a lot more than 2% that don't know where Canada is located. I saw somewhere not long ago that as high as 25% of the Americans polled couldn't find Canada on a globe or map.

[sufrommich]

211. How sad

We could not have wished for better neighbors.My Grampa was a Canadian and I still have family there.It's a great big friendly ,woodsy, hockey lovin' country!:hi:
The 2% loony toons who think it's the enemy,scare me.

[Hekate]

213. WTF? Canadians opened their homes to stranded airline passengers on 9/11

Canadians opened their homes to stranded airline passengers on 9/11 and for many days after. I will never forget that. :grouphug:

Damn. I just burst into tears when I wrote that. Not many things do that to me.

Like the Drowning of New Orleans, this just has me aghast. How could we do this to ourselves -- this evil, this delusion, this closing off of hearts and minds?

We need friends to tell us the truth about ourselves -- to know when to take away the keys, as someone else wrote earlier. It's suicidal to destroy such friendships.

Hekate

[olddad56]

217. The real question is why would Canada want to be our #1 ally?

[imouttahere]

235. Exactly!

[Deja Q]

219. Sympathy? More Canadians know of NAFTA's terms than Americans!

One of which is that the US can take all the energy stocks they want from Canada during time of crisis.

It seems "peak oil" was thought about back in 1995, if not earlier...

So, if Canadians aren't as sympathetic as to cry a big river, there are some undercurrents that have kept them less than utterly happy with us.

[minkyboodle]

220. This Just in

A new poll has confirmed that Canadians no longer view the United States as sane... news at 11 :)

[imouttahere]

236. Quel surprise!!!

[SnowBack]

240. I haven't seen Americans as sane since

Bush was elected... Thank God I'm outta here next summer...

Bye-bye Ahnuld... Bye-bye George... This Canadian is on his way back to Toronto...

See ya!:hi:

[imouttahere]

241. Good for you, SnowBack!

Next summer is about the time I will be headed to Montreal. I'm hoping to drive across Canada at that time. On my way through TO, maybe we could have a beer and commiserate about leaving California and Bush's Jesusland behind.

[SnowBack]

243. We might see each other on the highway!

I'm going to be driving up with my dogs while movers bring all the big stuff...

When ya drive through, you're more than welcome to crash for the night in our new Toronto place... Might not be much stuff in it, but it'll be the right price!

[imouttahere]

244. Are you driving across Canada as well?

or taking a more direct route through the states? I couldn't blame you if you did take the easier route. I've always wanted to drive across Canada, plus I want to visit my friends in Vancouver and then head east. It will be great to see all these places that I've heard about over the years, like Moose Jaw LOL.

Let's keep in touch, Man!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

231. oy vey......

[kestrel91316]

233. "Americans brainwashed by neocons/MSM into believing that

Canada is NOT our friend".

"Americans, no longer capable of independent thought go along with whatever gets spoon-fed to them".

:sarcasm:

[earth mom]

242. I LOVE CANADA!

That poll is a TOTAL CROCK. Freepers no doubt! :grr:

[Juneboarder]

245. Oh Canada!

Vancouver will be my new home if and when a draft is declared.

[imouttahere]

246. Vancouver is a great city.....

and if I'm not mistaken was recently ranks as high as #1 among the world's cities in some sort of standard of living index.

[Rocknrule]

253. The 2% who think they are our enemy

are the kind of people who would choose hell over heaven after they die. Why are republicans hell-bent on causing conflict and violence wherever they go?

[Marshall McClueless]

254. Phew.

Now we can get on with our crazy pinko agenda, eh?

[BattyDem]

255. Screw this poll ... I love Canada!

One of my closest friends is a Canuck!

[Raiden]

256. Canada minds its own business

Americans don't tend to admire that quality. I absolutely love Canada myself. I hope to live there someday!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

257. Not this American.

Canadians (Canadiens) are wonderful people.