Breaking now on CNN — Helicopter shot down

[prolesunited]

Helicopter shot down in Iraq. No link yet.

[Supply Side Jesus]

1. 20 americans/coalition?

???

[prolesunited]

3. It was really sketchy

I think U.S. troops. I will post more/link as soon as it's available.

Listed as breaking news at top of page
http://www.cnn.com/

[Corgigal]

63. MSNBC

is now reporting 15 dead. It was only a matter of time before they started shooting helicopters/planes out of the air. They tried to shoot down a airplane several months back but missed.

Poor families.

[Minstrel Boy]

2. "A U.S. helicopter with as many as 35 passengers has been shot down"

On the CNN home page.

[saigon68]

4. "BRING EM ON!!!!" Cried the cowardly Chimpanzee

Hey Sanchez--- I guess your pistol didn't help!!!


<>

U.S. commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, right speaks during a news conference as chief civilian administrator in L. Paul Bremer listens in Baghdad Saturday Nov. 1, 2003. Bremer said the coalition will accelerate the training of the Iraqi army and police to cope with new security threats.

On EDIT: You'd think with all the "security guards" protecting sorry bremer's lily white ass---- that the general wouldn't have to go around "packing heat"

[Kool Kitty]

5. There's a report about this on Fox

(ugh) News right now. Graphic sez-US Military helicopter shot down near Baghdad airport, 20 injured.

[DeaconBlues]

6. 20 injured, not dead

According to this article the occupants were only injured. I hope its correct.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20031102/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter

[section321]

8. Its possible...

depending on how bad the copter was damaged and how high it was, it could land without power.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. It was a Chinook at the Baghdad airport

MSNBC has a story:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CA00

on edit: CNN's saying now it was en route to the airport from Fallujah.

[SoCalDem]

28. Reuters says "at least one killed"

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IIWFZ53KNSJAUCRBAE0CFEY?type=topNews&storyID=3737741



U.S. Chopper Shot Down in Iraq, at Least One Killed
Sun November 2, 2003 03:40 AM ET

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) -

Guerrillas shot down a U.S. Chinook helicopter as it flew toward Baghdad airport Sunday and the U.S. Army said at least one person on board was killed and 20 wounded.

snip...

The U.S. spokesman said the helicopter was one of two CH-47 Chinooks heading toward Baghdad airport carrying personnel returning from a rest and recreation trip. They said 32 to 35 passengers were aboard the downed aircraft.

...snip...


Locals in Falluja said two surface-to-air missiles had been fired at the helicopter and that one had hit its target.

Also in Falluja, residents said a convoy of U.S. soldiers in civilian vehicles was hit by a roadside bomb.

At least one U.S. vehicle was ablaze at the site of the attack and a crowd of jubilant Iraqis gathered round. Television pictures showed a gleeful Iraqi youth wearing a U.S. Army helmet.

[Nottingham]

9. This just proves more & more we are at WAR and we haven't

won it by any means :bounce:

[prolesunited]

10. New details

Second of two incidents near Falludjah. Transport craft. 20 casualties, not known if dead or just wounded, unknown weapon brought it down

U.S. convoy came under attack earlier, chanting anti-US slogans

Could be connected to Day of Resistance

[economic justice]

11. Fox - again --- argh!

Fox has had the best coverage so far. This really pisses me off that I am having to rely on Fox for breaking news. That have gone back to programming now, but did a better job than CNN. Screw 'em.

They emphasized that the military did not use the word "injured" only as "casualties" which leaves it ambiguous.

[pakaya]

12. My deepest sympathy to family members

of the killed soldiers. this war is not worth talkin . this is really a crazy unfinished war by BUSH SR

[ForestsBeatBushes]

61. Thanks for the reminder.

If Bush I would have done his job, then Bush II wouldn't have been ordered to do clean-up.

Of course, the entire Bush family's ties to the Saudis leave everything in doubt.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

62. Either DU or I hiccoughed as this is a dupe - sorry.

[tsipple]

14. Old Definition v. New Definition?

The Bush Administration has redefined "casualties" to mean "soldiers who died by getting shot by Iraqi rebels with the cameras rolling." Lots of "traffic accidents" otherwise.

Hopefully that's NOT the definition at work here and that casualties means "minimally injured." (Fingers and toes crossed.)

[mobuto]

16. Oh?

Do you have any evidence that the Administration has lied about or otherwise covered up US military casualties in any official capacity?

If you have it, I strongly suggest you contact the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the House International Relations Committee, the respective Armed Services Committees and the House Judiciary Committee (nearly half the members of which will immediatly start work on articles of impeachment). This is not a joke - if you can support your allegations you may have stumbled upon the biggest political scandal in US history.

And if you can't support your allegations, well you can't.

[tsipple]

20. Whoa, Chill Dude

I'm alleging that the Bush Administration is not reporting "non-combat" casualties as war casualties. Many people, myself included, argue that all casualties in Iraq should be counted as war casualties.

You're just as dead if you get into a traffic accident patrolling Baghdad -- something you wouldn't be doing if U.S. troops were not there. It's part of the full cost of war.

[hang a left]

24. Doesn't casualties usually mean deaths?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. Usually wounded + killed = casualties.

[Occulus]

33. It's only the 'best' coverage

if you're blind to all but the * line.

[0007]

68. Fuck FOX & CNN & MSNBC

James Woolsey is on Washington Journal lying his ass off.

[Renew Deal]

13. CNN international Breaking news, 1 dead

[Guaranteed]

15. DAMMIT!!

I JUST said this was going to happen eventually a couple of days ago. I knew they'd get us for a large number of troops at least once.

[GCP]

58. Doesn't this mean the war's going terrifically well - by *'s reasoning?

The mounting attacks are because we're doing so well over there according to Chimp.

We must be doing really really well - {/sarcasm}

It's now at least 13 dead according to the latest news.

My sincerest condolences to all the families involved. This is too horrible for words.
A study in the YUK recently estimated the civilian dead over there at 15,000.

When will the madness stop?

[silverchair]

17. the attacks

are becoming more sophisticated. i am sure this won't be the last either.

[mobuto]

19. The attacks are becoming more succesful

I don't know about more sophisticated, although that may also be the case here; it really isn't all that hard to shoot down a Chinook.

[tsipple]

18. AP: "At Least One Dead"

AP also says that the soldiers were on their way to R&R.

Damn.

[Wwagsthedog]

21. More on this

AP Top News at 3:28 a.m. EST

At Least 1 Dead in Chopper Crash in Iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. Chinook helicopter believed carrying dozens of soldiers to their R&R leaves was shot down as it approached Baghdad airport on Sunday, the U.S. command said. It reported at least one soldier killed and 20 injured. "The Chinook was shot down by an unknown weapon," a U.S. spokesman in Baghdad said on condition of anonymity. The precise location was not immediately reported.

[tsipple]

22. New York Times Photo Today

;(

[Guaranteed]

26. It's about F*CKING time!

Show some fucking respect. Can't believe the media's been ignoring that.

[eablair3]

23. Bush rationale

I wonder if Bush is thinking this is another measure of his success under his funky rationale that it shows how even more desperate those "terrorists" are becoming?

what an idiot.

[Guaranteed]

25. Jesus Christ! Fox saying 20 dead, then changes headline

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101948,00.html

That's gotta be an error.

On edit: they just changed the headline to "injured."

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

27. US helicopter shot down in Iraq, at least 20 casualties: coalition

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/middleeast/view/55186/1/.html

BAGHDAD : A US Chinook helicopter with 32 people on board was shot down Sunday in Iraq causing at least 20 casualties, the US-led coalition said.

Military officials said the shooting occurred south of Fallujah a flashpoint town 50 kilometres west of Baghdad
<snip>
Residents in Fallujah said two surface-to-air missiles had been fired at the helicopter and that one had hit its target.
<snip>

2 SAMs. Plus other news of another American death in an explosion in Baghdad.

[lebkuchen]

57. Once shoulder-fired missiles get out, the helicopter business is over

American military officials have repeatedly warned that hundreds of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles remain unaccounted for in Iraq since the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime in April.

http://msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CA00

[ForestsBeatBushes]

29. US helicopter downed in Iraq, at least 20 casualties

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067749435100&p=1008596981749

[hang a left]

31. Centcom says 20 casualties.

[Newsjock]

32. AP: "2 dead, possibly more"

off the wire

AP-ME GEN APNEWSALERT

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Two dead, possibly more, in crash of U.S. military Chinook helicopter near Fallujah, coalition official says.

[SoCalDem]

34. FAUX now says 13 dead..

:(

pic from aljazeera website

[nomaco-10]

35. MSNBC says Reuters reports 13 dead

[Norbert]

37. MSNBC - 20 wounded also.

Damn this sucks.

[Newsjock]

36. AP confirms

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP)_U.S. military command confirms 13 killed and more than 20 wounded when U.S. Chinook helicopter shot down near Fallujah.

[Kinkistyle]

45. 13 Dead - Single biggest toll since "End of War"

From Reuters: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031102/ts_nm/iraq_helicopter_toll_dc

'Currently 13 soldiers are KIA (killed in action) and some 20 wounded," a spokesman told Reuters. The attack caused the biggest single death toll among occupying troops since Saddam Hussein was toppled in April. '

[dArKeR]

38. Bring'em On! as our President has taunted and the American Media Whores

make little of the Presidential statement. RICO the 'Liberal' GOP Media! And the Democrats and a bunch of spineless shat too!

[pinniped]

39. Unknown weapon = SAM

Would be my guess.

The Russians fired chaff and flares when they used to land in Afghanistan. Of course those may not prove too effective with more advanced weapons systems.

[Guaranteed]

41. Chaff's

radar, flares are heat.

[pinniped]

42. Thanks...my edit was too late.

I always wondered what the diff was.

[Aidoneus]

43. it could've been shoulder-fired and portable

the Chechens, for example, have downed dozens of military helicopters of the Russian invaders using shoulder-fired mortars & RPGs. In Afghanistan, I've heard that fighters were able to down helicopters with one good rifle shot to the fuel tank.

Depending on the design of the helicopter similar methods may be applied here by the Iraqi resistance. As was the case in bombing the Abrams M1 tank the other day, advanced weapons may not necessarily be required as much as careful execution.

[pinniped]

48. Based on witness reports it appears to be a shoulder fired missile.

"CNN's Jane Arraf, who is at the scene, said witnesses saw a shoulder-type missile being launched and flares going off."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/02/sprj.irq.int.main/index.html

[teryang]

59. Flares aren't that effective without maneuver

On landing, flares would be less effective as there is no acceleration or "load" at all on the aircraft.

[RummyTheDummy]

40. This is going to be a huge deal.....

On the Sunday morning shows and well beyond. It could end up becoming highly symbolic of the mess/trouble we're in over there. BFEE fools. 13 more and for what?

[Newsjock]

46. Rebuilding must be a BIG success!

For an attack to be THIS big, it must mean that the USA is being REALLY successful at rebuilding Iraq! </gop>

Lord help us all, and have mercy on us, if we keep being as successful.

[qanda]

44. I couldn't sleep...

And now I know why. Now I can't stop crying. My heart goes out to all of those families who are probably losing their minds with grief right now. Apparently these soldiers were on their way back to Iraq from the leave program. Politics aside, this is just terrible.

[Guaranteed]

50. Politics aside,

this REALLY pisses me off.

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Here's the AP link, 13 killed

U.S. Says 13 Killed in Iraq Chopper Crash

AP Wire

November 2, 2003, 5:42 AM EST

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The U.S. military command said Sunday that 13 soldiers were killed and more than 20 wounded when their U.S. Chinook helicopter was shot down near Fallujah.

"Currently there are 13 killed in action and more than 20 wounded," the U.S. military said in a statement.

The the wounded have all been transferred to medical facilities and authorities are searching for more survivors, it said.

[qanda]

49. What do they mean by their searching for more survivors?

Rhetorical question. Just gets my blood boiling though.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. Means this is another FUBAR situation

that W has gotten these poor kids into.

This one must be pretty bad if they are still 'looking' for survivors. I would expect with a statement like that, that the death toll from this incident will be higher than 13.

BTW: Isn't this the most that we've lost in one incident since the war began?

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. Reuters now saying at least 13 killed

Reuters

Attack on U.S. Helicopter in Iraq Kills at Least 13

BAISA, Iraq (Reuters) - Guerrillas shot down a U.S. Chinook helicopter as it flew toward Baghdad airport Sunday, killing at least 13 soldiers in the bloodiest single attack on occupying troops since Saddam Hussein was overthrown.

"Currently 13 soldiers are KIA (killed in action) and some 20 wounded," a U.S. Army spokesman told Reuters.

The crippled helicopter came down in farmland near the village of Baisa, south of the flashpoint town of Falluja, a stronghold of anti-U.S. resistance 32 miles west of Baghdad.


(Also, they've answered my question in the post above, the bloodiest attack since Saddam was overthrown. This sucks.)

[qanda]

53. This SUCKS big time!

This may actually be the most we've lost at one time during the entire invasion. Isn't this how Vietnam started out?

[joanski01]

54. I think this is only

going to get worse. The Middle East countries are fighting to keep America and Israel from taking control of them and their resources. This is so, so awful.

[Cooley Hurd]

55. CNN just upped the total to 14 dead...

Son of a bitch!!! This is the worst "postwar" day our forces have had...

Goddamn it all...

[lebkuchen]

56. Landstuhl Medical Center will be busier than ever, unfortunately

Yahoo won't let me access the link anymore, but the highlights of this article are below, from my e-mail files.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&e=8&u=/ap/germany_military_hospital

**************************************************************

Oct. 18, 2003

With American troops under near daily attack in Iraq, workers at the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center are still putting in 60-hour weeks caring for wounded and ill soldiers — as well as troops stationed in Afghanistan (news - web sites), the Balkans and Germany.

Since President Bush (news - web sites) declared the major fighting in Iraq over on May 1, two-thirds of the additional staff brought in for the war remain in place, and the average of 44 new patients a day is nearly three times the peacetime level.

"I can't tell the difference between combat and post-combat," said medical director Lt. Col. Richard Jordan, looking over rows of trailers providing temporary housing for the extra 600 doctors and nurses called in to handle casualties from the war.

[Francis]

64. Now reporting 15 dead

n/t

[Corgigal]

65. MSNBC

also said 15 dead, 21 injured. Doesn't surprise me that we had a helicopter shot out of the air. Several months ago they tried to take down an airplane.

Poor guys, thought they might be coming home for Thanksgiving.

[IndianaGreen]

67. You are right, the latest count is 15 KIA and 21 wounded

this does not include the other GIs killed today by mines. A bloody day indeed!

The only difference between withdrawing the troops now, as Kucinich has proposed, or much later as Bush and the misguided supporters of the "we-broke-it-we-fixed-it" strategy, is the number of names that will end up being etched on whatever monument is erected to the fallen in Iraq.

By bringing the troops home now we are saving lives, ours and Iraqis. By keeping the troops in Iraq, we are wasting lives, and it will not change the outcome: the post-Saddam Iraq will be an Islamist anti-Western country far more dangerous than Saddam ever was.

[Rose Siding]

70. Up to 24 US dead, including other incidents

15 in the crash
4 in Fallujah
1 in Baghdad
3 or 4 in Abu Ghraib, all according to this msn front pg article:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=110220030725

[teryang]

60. I think there should be a follow up interview

...with Sen. Lott. Mow 'em down or cut to ribbons?

[diamond14]

66. Heat-seeking missiles (Russian SA-7)....more where that came from....(AP)

The missiles flashed toward the helicopter from behind, as usual with heat-seeking shoulder-fired missiles such as the Russian-made SA-7. The old Iraqi army had a large inventory of SA-7s, also known as Strelas.

Insurgents have fired on U.S. aircraft before, downing two helicopters, and American military officials have repeatedly warned that hundreds of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles remain unaccounted for in Iraq since the collapse of Saddam's regime in April.

"This was a new lesson from the resistance, a lesson to the greedy aggressors," one Fallujah resident, who wouldn't give his name, said of the helicopter downing. "They'll never be safe until they get out of our country," he said of the Americans.



http://www.comcast.net/News/INTERNATIONAL//XML/1107_AP_Online_Regional___Middle_East/77d80c89-468a-4d04-a97e-545699d1d20d.html

[Eloriel]

69. This is way too much like Vietnam for me

It absolutely tears me up that these troops were on their way to take leave.

It brings back so many memories of how terrified the troops were in 'Nam when they got "short." So many deaths happened toward the end of their tours.

Eloriel

[VolcanoJen]

71. Locking.... thread consolidation

Let's keep our discussion about this tragic story consolidated into one LBN thread for the time being.

Although this thread by prolesunited was started first, the thread by Noordam has the most current, up-to-date information, and the most replies. In order to keep the story consolidated, please continue your discussion in Noordam's thread, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=195719&mesg_id=195719&page=

Thanks, prolesunited, and everyone who has contributed to this thread as the story broke. The Noordam thread also contains a message that refers to this thread as the original one.

Thanks again,
VolcanoJen
DU Moderator