Mexico: Walls won't stop migrants

[Thom Little]

The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.

Guillermo Martinez died Saturday in a Tijuana hospital, a day after he was shot by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near a metal wall separating that city from San Diego, according to prosecutors in Baja California state.

.......

At his briefing with reporters in Mexico City, Fox spokesman Ruben Aguilar said the government "laments and condemns" Martinez's death, and is demanding an investigation.

"This occurrence does no more than provide evidence that only a law that guarantees legal entry and is respectful of human rights can resolve the migratory problem both countries face," Aguilar said.

.......

Aguilar again attacked the measure Monday, saying "walls and police crackdowns never will resolve migration problems."



http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/02/immigrant.shot.ap/index.html

[madeline_con]

1. "The death of a Mexican man ... proves ..."

That's some weird logic, IMO.

[Hekate]

2. "Walls won't stop migrants"? -- I never thought they would

All it's done so far is to push the migrants into the desert, where a lot more of them die en route. Whatever the answer to illegal immigration is, it isn't a wall.

Hekate

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ReaderSushi]

4. You really believe those last two lines?

Do you genuinely feel CA, AZ, and NM are at present Mexican territories occupied by the US?
Do you propose we redraw all political borders to restore land taken from native residents and if so how far back in time do we go?
Remember, even the natives of Central America spent some conquering each other. Which group of conquerors gets to keep the land?

[NorthernSpy]

5. and Mexico had stolen those lands from the Dineh, among others...

... before ceding them to the United States for $15 million in 1848.

Sure is a bitch now that their children want it back, eh Uncle Sam?
Same as the Palestinians in Palestine.

Not even close. Fewer than 100,000 Mexican citizens lived in those territories when Mexico relinquished the area. And nearly all of them opted to become citizens of the United States. These "children who want it back" aren't the descendants of the few Mexicans who lived in the American Southwest at the time it changed it hands.

[EFerrari]

20. They "opted to become citizens of the United States" ?!

:rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

27. yes, under the terms of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...

... all persons who were citizens of Mexico living in the ceded territories at the time of the treaty (less than 5% of Mexico's population, by the way) were automatically granted US citizenship unless they preferred to remain citizens of Mexico.

The thing is, very few of them chose to remain citizens of Mexico.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

[EFerrari]

31. I have a bilingual copy of that document

and have read both versions.

A conquered people don't have "options."

And you might want to familiarize yourself with the immense body of music known as "corridos" which document pretty clearly in music the miserable "options" the Mexican people living in the conquered territories had.

:)

/spellin'

[Bushy Being Born]

7. Right.

Very nice nick and avatar you have there, I'm sure it'll help you with being taken seriously.

[Bridget Burke]

14. The land was not "stolen" from those crossing the Border....

They came from farther South. Nobody owns any land unless they hold title to it. Of course, the government can always take that away.

What we need is fewer borders--not a new one isolating Aztlan.

[Loonman]

18. Mexico stole the land from others before them

And before them.

[NorthernSpy]

6. Mexico should mind its own goddamn business

How we police our side of the border is no ones business but ours.

A bill passed by the U.S. House of Representatives on December 16 would build more border fences, make illegal entry a felony and enlist military and local police to help stop undocumented migrants. (Full story) The U.S. Senate is expected to address the matter in February.

High damn time!

Mexico has bitterly opposed the House bill, which Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez branded as "stupid and underhanded." Fox has called it shameful.

No, encouraging your own impoverished citizens to sneak into someone else's country rather than bothering to do anything for them is what's underhanded and shameful.

[rodeodance]

8. shooting people crossing over--reminds me of the Berlin wall. !!

....The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.

[NorthernSpy]

13. yes, because locking your door against intruders is exactly like...

... holding people imprisoned in your house against their will.

:eyes:

[Flanker]

25. Its worse

The latter was condemed internationally and was later removed, this one would last for generations.

The logic of comming out vs going in is arbitrary. Its like saying killing green people is wrong, but purple is ok because one is gree n the other purple.

[apple_ridge]

16. Nice logic.

Of course, we could use the machine gun posts which were on the BW.

[michreject]

37. Big difference

The Berlin wall was built to keep its people in. The wall at our southern border would be built to keep other people out.

A more similar comparison would be the great wall of China. It was built to keep foreign invaders out.

[rodeodance]

9. Walls are not the answer.

[Kolesar]

19. Love is the answer

"40 billion spent on homeland security every year and we cannot intercept a million people coming over the border " -- Lou Dobbs

[High Plains]

28. The death of a Mexican citizen is Mexico's business.

[NorthernSpy]

39. Q: when does the Mexican government care about Mexicans?

A: When said Mexicans are on US soil. NO such tender concern for Mexicans in Mexico.

And when you realize that the money that migrants send home from working in the United States is Mexico's single largest revenue stream -- eclipsing even oil income -- you can kind of see why Fox et al are trying to dictate our border policy.

My point is that if Americans wish to exclude "undocumented" border-crossers and to expel illegal aliens, that is our business -- and none of theirs.

[High Plains]

40. It is certainly the right of the US to set US border policy.

But we just might want to work with the Mexicans instead of telling them to fuck off.

And no, remittances aren't the largest revenue stream:

(The below comes from Frontier News Service at New Mexico State University. Sorry I don't have a link for you; I get this by email.)


January 3, 2006

Immigration/Economic News


Profiting from Remittances


According to Bank of Mexico Governor Guillermo Ortiz,
remittances from Mexican migrants are expected to reach or
surpass $20 billion dollars for 2005. Money sent home from
Mexican migrants who mainly work in the United States now
constitutes Mexico's second largest source of legal
foreign exchange, topped only by petroleum exports.
Remittances also have emerged as big business for banks
and other money transfer enterprises that rake in hundreds
of millions of dollars annually from the cash flow. A
recent consumer guide jointly distributed by Mexico's
Attorney General for Environmental Protection (Profeco)
and the National Human Rights Commission (CNDH) provides
one clue as to who is cashing in on the remittance boom,
and at what cost to consumers.

[NorthernSpy]

41. whether remittances are the biggest or second biggest revenue source...

... the point remains that Mexico's government is following a very deliberate policy of encouraging their citizens to break American laws so that the Mexican government can leech off our country. That is aggression. It is unreasonable to expect us to "work with" such a hostile government:

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexico's foreign minister will meet with counterparts in Central America to seek their backing against a U.S. plan to build a high-tech border fence aimed at holding back illegal immigrants.

Mexicans are incensed by the proposal in the U.S. Congress to erect the fence with lights and security cameras along parts of the border and make illegal immigration a felony.

The meeting with Central American leaders, whose nations also send many undocumented workers to the United States, is Mexico's latest move to block the U.S. proposal, which the government of President Vicente Fox has called "disgraceful" and a violation of human rights.

(...)

The Mexican Congress, meanwhile, sent a letter to parliaments in Latin America, Spain and Portugal asking for condemnation of the U.S. border security proposal.

Fox's top foreign policy goal when he took office in 2000 was to win sweeping U.S. immigration reform in favor of millions of Mexicans working illegally in the United States.

Unbelievable! Clearly, they haven't the slightest respect for us, our society, our laws, or our sovereignty.

Me, I dare to resent that -- though of course I am aware that saying anything against illegal immigration is a dreadful faux pas in some circles.

[High Plains]

43. Take a deep breath.

Mexico is hardly a hostile government. Mexico is not engaging in "aggression" against the US.

We share a common border. Of course Mexico has the right to say something about border issues and how to resolve them. That doesn't mean Mexico gets to vote in Congress about immigration issues. But to suggest that "they haven't the slightest respect for us, our society, our laws, or our sovereignty," because they dare to oppose something passed by one house of Congress is a bit over the top.

And it is especially rich coming from an American. Which country, pray tell, is the unchallenged world leader in telling other countries what to do?

[Critters2]

33. Those impoverished folks sneaking in here

guarantee your cheap meat and veggies. They're here because Americans want them here. If you're not willing to pay the true market cost of food raised using well-paid American workers, shut the hell up.

[NorthernSpy]

38. as it happens, much of what I eat was produced either by me...

... or by other members of my family, or by other people in my area who are among our extended circle of aquaintances.

In my state, any seasonal workers who are not citizens are traditionally Jamaicans who are in this country legally -- unless you count all those lumberjacks from Quebec (who also work here legally).

If you're not willing to pay the true market cost of food raised using well-paid American workers, shut the hell up.

Since I personally grew the potatoes I had for lunch today, I feel quite entitled to keep talking. I avoid the products of big-biz agriculture for the same reason that I don't buy Chinese-made goods if I can help it, and won't set foot in WalMart: low prices can conceal much higher true costs.

[rodeodance]

10. The man was shot on the Mexico side of the border. NOT GOOD>

..Guillermo Martinez died Saturday in a Tijuana hospital, a day after he was shot by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near a metal wall separating that city from San Diego, according to prosecutors in Baja California state.

Authorities said Martinez was on the Mexican side of the border at the time, but may have picked up rocks and made motions as if to throw them at the U.S. agent.

Baja California Gov. Eugenio Elorduy said in a statement that U.S. officials were investigating the shooting. But U.S. authorities on Monday could not confirm that.

At his briefing with reporters in Mexico City, Fox spokesman Ruben Aguilar said the government "laments and condemns" Martinez's death, and is demanding an investigation.

[NorthernSpy]

12. actually, he had already crossed the first border fence...

... when the confrontation took place. Martinez was in America (having broken in) when he was shot.

Border Patrol agents are physically attacked by illegals on a regular basis.

But hurling rocks at law enforcement is not always a safe activity, I guess.


:think:

[henslee]

21. I've spent some time by the border and there are these border guys

beefed up kids mostly, in shorts, hi tech gear, bp vests riding around on these 3 wheeled motorcycles. They really creeped me out.

[High Plains]

29. Shot in the back

"Guillermo Martinez Rodriguez, believed to be about 18, was wounded by a single gunshot to the back of his right shoulder near the San Ysidro Port of Entry on Friday, said Luis Cabrera, the head of the Mexican Consulate in San Diego. The teen was trying to sneak into the United States with his older brother to find work, Cabrera said.

Authorities said he crossed back into Mexico after the shooting and ended up at a Tijuana hospital, where he died the next day.

"We are very sorry this young man died. We condemn the use of force," Cabrera said at a news conference in San Diego.

Armed agents are in no position to deal with the complex social and economic roots of immigration, Cabrera told reporters. "It is not just by law enforcement and use of force you can tackle this phenomenon. We want for both countries a secure and safe border, and it's not by use of force that we will do this."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20060103-9999-1m3shooting.html

The Mexican consul, Mr. Cabrera, has it right in his quote above.

[alfred e bush]

11. shoot a few employers

end of problem

[Triana]

15. the ONLY thing that will resolve them is making Mexico...

...and it's economy one that Mexicans don't want to escape to come to the US. We ought to be working to get Mexico economically on its feet so that they can get jobs and have decent lives there and don't have to come HERE to have those things.

As long as Mexico's economy and job situation sucks, they're going to go elsewhere. I think the approach has to be two-pronged:

1. Get Mexico's economy and jobs in better shape so Mexicans have opportunities in their own damn country;
2. Stem illegal immigration into the US - but there's no point in doing #2 without first doing #1 because they'll just keep dying to get here.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Many of our jobs that went to Mexico have already moved on....

China, etc., can make the stuff cheaper. Workers all over the world need better rights.

We can't make the USA a Gated Community. (Besides, Gated Communities need SOMEONE to run the leaf blowers.)

[kineneb]

26. but having a poor country next door

means always having a source of cheap labor, and a threat to use against US workers who demand more rights and better pay

US Gov. does not want to see an economically healthy Mexico.

[tn-guy]

30. Big problem with that proposal

The idea that we could "(g)et Mexico's economy and jobs in better shape..." is attractive but, unfortunately we are powerless to take the actions that would have a legitimate chance of success. Much/most of the problem with the Mexican economy is rooted in a government where bribery and corruption are the rule. Unless we were to overthrow the Mexican government and impose our rule I don't see how we can fix that problem.

[Critters2]

34. It's been done before!!

Let's just impose some more democracy!!

[High Plains]

36. Bribery and corruption?

Maybe you should look in your own backyard, America.

[area51]

17. wall

It always makes me laugh when nazis talk about building a wall against illegal immigrants. They won't do it b/c they're addicted to cheap labor. Republinazi party members are completely beholden to special interests (businesses) that depend on cheap labor. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

22. Pobre Mexico, tan lejos de Dios y tan cerca a los Estados Unidos.

"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States."

[trogdor]

23. I know what WILL work.

Enforce the mothereffing law! Send these crooked employers to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison (or fine the living piss out of them). You frog-march a few HR managers to court, you end the problem. No jobs, no illegal aliens, no need for new laws, vigilantes, or massive concrete barriers. Last I heard, hiring illegal aliens was ALREADY AGAINST THE LAW. When you hire somebody, you have to take a look at their Social Security card, right? So what's the mothereffing problem?

[Critters2]

35. Americans like cheap food

more than they like laws being enforced.

[Bridget Burke]

32. As always, Lalo Alcaraz has something to add...

[pinerow]

42. LOL.....

Ain't that the truth...