Wal-Mart Says December Sales May Crimp 4th-Qtr Profit

[shugah]

Jan. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world's largest retailer, said the smallest December sales gain in five years may crimp fourth-quarter profit.

~snip~
Wal-Mart's strategy of cutting prices hurt December sales and wasn't successful in luring shoppers away from competitors who advertised late in the season. The company debuted its earliest-ever holiday marketing campaign on Nov. 1 to avoid last year's mistakes, when it was slow to discount popular items and had to offer last-minute markdowns.

``They were willing to cut the throats of themselves and anyone who got in the way of them,'' said Seattle-based Patricia Edwards, who helps manage $6.4 billion, including Wal-Mart shares, for Wentworth Hauser & Violich.

~snip~

``The 2004 holiday season revealed that Wal-Mart was no longer invincible,'' wrote Oppenheimer & Co. analyst Bernard Sosnick, who is based in New York and rates Wal-Mart ``buy.'' ``The 2005 season did not erase that impression.''

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_2CLqRrlRrM&refer=news_index

[VaYallaDawg]

1. Such a pity. Pardon me while I cry my crocodile tears. n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

30. 'tis true. my heart bleeds, like a turnip in the sun. n/t

[Radio_Lady]

52. Watched the PBS 2004 Special on whether Wal-Mart is good for America

which replayed this weekend on KOPB-TV, Portland, Oregon. (Saddest story was the dissolution of Rubbermaid in Wooster, Ohio.)

I'll never shop at WM again! Their meetings with whooping and hollering in a huge stadium -- looked very much like a cult to me.

The trouble is: I then went to a large box store (Bed, Bath and Beyond) on Sunday to purchase some items that we needed. I tried very hard to purchase items that were MADE IN AMERICA. Out of six items, with diligent shopping, I was unable to get all items from the U.S.

Hypothesis: Wal-Mart is just the tip of the iceberg. We need answers on how to roll back the tide of imported goods.

[shaniqua6392]

2. Oh. We really must go and help them out.

Lets all run to Walmart and spend some money today. We can not have them hurting financially since we are all so well off these days.:sarcasm:

[bleedingheart]

3. no store is invincible....

[fasttense]

4. But the economy is great. So how come Wal-Mart isn't doing great? n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Instead of GM, is it now as WM goes so goes America? shudder!

MKJ

[joeunderdog]

49. Americans' cybershopping could actually be effecting WM more than

smaller overhead stores. Haven't heard this discussed, but the brick n mortar businesses are at a comptetive disadvantage to e-stores because they are required to pay out so much more in rent, electric, employees, etc. Along comes Joe CyberSales who is essentially a distributer and also has no middleman and fewer expenses. Suddenly, he can compete with prices that a Mom N Pop Storefront can't. Then, WM has a little competition.

F*CK Walmart. I will NEVER EVER shop there.

[tanyev]

5. Oh, dear.

:cry::cry::cry::cry:

[Strathos]

6. Can I just ask, what is it about Wal-Mart that you hate?

I really don't understand it. Have I missed something?

Is it the way they treat their employees? The merchandise?

I'm just asking and hoping to be informed.

[ozymandius]

8. many reasons

Wal-Mart persistently violates labor laws. They are the target of many lawsuits including: sexual harrassment, racial descriminiation, safety regulation (violation of fire codes by locking employees in the building). They have destroyed communities by undercutting mom-and-pop stores and forcing down wages. Their wage and benefits policies force people into state health benefit programs. In effect - taxpayers subsidize this corporation by providing what is, effectively, indigent care for employees and their dependents.

EDIT: Wal-Mart also contributes to our massive trade deficit. Do you remember when Wal-Mart was still owned and operated by Sam Walton? Their motto was "Made in the U.S.A." Look how much is made in the U.S.A now on the sales floor at Wal-Mart now that Sam Walton's greedy heirs have taken control of the company. Almost nothing. The company cares nothing for quality of life nor a living wage for its employees. They only care about the share price and keeping its employees impoverished, working on this modern plantation.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

9. Nice summation, ozymandius. n/t

MKJ

[ozymandius]

22. Thank you.

:hi:

[saigon68]

24. Nice Job Ozy !!

Right to the point :-)

[DainBramaged]

42. May I also add this

[YOY]

10. OK let me enlighten you to the tip of the iceberg...

1A. They practically insisted that suppliers send goods from China to ensure that the overal cost would be lower. First they have the old "buy American" then they push so much cheap Chinese crap that American manufactures cannot afford to produce anything and have to close doors. (and we're talking about tech goods and not simple plastic shit...) Since they are the 800 lb. Gorilla they have the ability to do it.

1B. Actually they have a history of fucking the producer...they are so big that when they try to sheer costs (and they always do) so much that it practically forces the producer to cater to their whim alone. That's not capitalism...that's a fucking monopoly...

2. Although they do not treat their employees anywhere near as bad as The May Company ("$6.00 an hour! and I have to wear my nice clothes! Where do I sign up!!!") It is still retail and they still do not play enough to get by. Some would say that the problem is that they are non-Union. (I don't think that retail workers really can warrant a Union...It's not a high skill job....then again they could finally get some damn justice if it happened.) Walmart does have several causes of blatant rights violations and illegal actions regarding it's employement history.

3. The old lower prices until the competition closes bag...

That's just the tip of the iceberg...

If you don't know then I suggest you start looking closer. There is a ton of 411 on Walmart that have given folks reason to dislike them.

[MindPilot]

14. I have personally witnessed the producer-fucking

My employer makes TVs. I happened to be in a meeting where the subject was quite literally if we want to put a particular product on the shelf in Wal-Mart, we have to change the model number so it doesn't look to our other distributors like we're undercutting them. And our profits are razor-thin on those units which means than in the bigger picture, the rest of the market subsidizes Wal-Mart.

[YOY]

19. I read a Harvard Business Review that Praised them for their

'strong handed actions against suppliers.' Naturally, they mentioned the history of how Walton would demand that the Supplier come to them, sit in a drab uncomfortable room, and negotiate rapidly on costs and numbers supplied.

At first it sounds like a good idea: No wining and dining. No expenses for first class accommodations. That was the 1980s and early 90s.

Then you realize what happens when the buyer becomes too strong to the point where they begin to affect the suppliers varied industries. At the strength level of Walmart where they can actually inflict damage on the economy through PERSONAL global actions the situation is amazing.

They never leaned into this shit in the HBR...which I discovered well on my own...glad my Bus. School taught me ethics. Then again, I already had them going in...

[susanna]

59. Ask the American auto companies...

...how much browbeating their suppliers helped them, long-term. (Hint: it didn't. They are now trying to win back supplier trust in order to deliver turnarounds, after years of dictating prices and heavy-handed threats.)

So essentially WalMart's a baby at this historical truth (don't screw your suppliers). They'll pay more and more and more as time goes on. Sorry if I can't cry for 'em...

(Essentially I agree with you, YOY...)

on edit: I am a good speller, honest!

[napi21]

63. You're absolutely right. I witnessed that too!

BECAUSE their volume is so big, the temptation of being a WM provider is very high. Our Co. was willing to sell to them at razor thin profits just to get the job. THEN, after we invested more employee hours in this customer than all the others combined, and after being a supplier for 6 months, they said "you have to reduce your prices at least 10% or we're out of here!" We couldn't, and they left!

[adigal]

16. And don't forget - their stuff is cheaper

because they force their suppliers to use inferior quality in the goods. Example: socks from Target by Company X, for example, have a higher thread count than socks by Company X for WalMart. Thus, they last longer and feel better on your feet. So the cheap socks are not really worth it.

[The Flaming Red Head]

39. Actually there is a union for them.

http://www.ufcw.org/

I disagree with you.


"(I don't think that retail workers really can warrant a Union...It's not a high skill job....then again they could finally get some damn justice if it happened.)"

[YOY]

41. I knew about it, but as much as I would like to see them earn a fair wage

The problem is that they are truly easily replaceable! Granted a butcher and a baker have significant skills that cannot be easily replicated, but the lady at the cashier and the guy who stocks the counters are not running the skill level that member of the Pipe Fitters and UAW have to obtain.

I just don't think they have a strong enough stance in that position.

[The Flaming Red Head]

43. The lowest skill levels I've seen are in government and upper manageme...

They don't know where their money is coming from and can't even account for where it has gone these days.

[YOY]

45. As an MBA I have to concur

Many of the older (and a few of the younger) upper management types I have had the displeasure of rubbing shoulders with are a bunch of idiots who literally cannot open their FUCKING EMAIL by themselves (I am not joking here.) They need a admin. assistant to do goddamn everything but make vital decisions for them. Of course someone else collects and presents the information for that decision making as well as carry's out any changes that would take place because of it...

I had a job offer to be one of these buffoons' assistant (and I mean assistant with no chance of moving up the ladder.) I have never been rude to an HR person over the phone like that and I hope I never have to again.

As far as I can tell the only skills they have is huge gallons of self confidence and the position to bully people. This is why I work for a small company. We may not have the $, but we are competant...

Sorry, as pro union as I am I simply cannot understand how much of a strong stance a union could have in dealing with the company in this situation. Replacement workers are cheap and plentiful to these companies and it does not take much to train them...

[The Flaming Red Head]

46. You’d be surprised what people become skilled at.

If you only pay $48 to someone for 8 hours and $10 to $15 thousand dollars pass might though their hands in a single shift.

Not even counting inventory.

[YOY]

47. Not too sure what you're getting at...

Do you mean at shit wages money/inventory is more likely to get lost...and less likely with Union wages? Does this liquidation happen due to problems internally or externally? If you could back it up with some good stats, I'd be grateful! (I'm not being sarcastic here, I just want for you to truly convince me.)

I never had that problem when I was working shit retail and I did some good work (for shit pay.)

[JusticeForAll]

73. I hope I'm not viewed as browbeating you...

I already replied once regarding your thoughts on WalMart workers not 'deserving' a union because they are unskilled.

You really missed the point during your MBA studies of why unions began and why many continue to exist. If you really believe that a union is "all about wages and only about wages" you have just swallowed one of the many large Republican myths ever created and believed by the masses who continue to perpetuate it.

It's about the power of a group of many (employees) having the impact to enforce laws that these corrupt corporations would otherwise get away with violating in a non union situation. Whistleblowers as we all know and have seen frequently have little impact and end up getting fired usually.

Yes many of the media stories today deal with money money money...and of course I cannot be blind to the fact that money and wage equity are a BIG factor in unions. From MTA(New York transit), to autoworkers, and to airlines on the brink of bankruptcy, we hear only about the wages in times of crisis - what we don't hear about are the major facts that without these unions for the many years they have existed we would have hundreds of non-employee casualties as a result of these skilled and unskilled workers cutting corners to provide your public transportation, automobiles, and air travel so that the big company can make an extra buck...

Thanks for listening.

[Fovea]

80. There are lots of traditional remedies for employers

who scab on unions. Labor needs to start looking back in time to the last labor struggle.

[JusticeForAll]

72. Union

Umm, being locked in a Wal-Mart overnight in violation of many many safety regs amd laws seems to be a worker hazard that is worthy of unionizing. What about ignoring laws regarding breaks and the power to get extra blood and sweat out of their hourly employees? Retail while considered "safe" has many hazards associated with it if people are not given proper 'downtime'

Who knows what the hell else these creeps do and have done to endanger their employees all so that they can make a buck?

They have the power to convince or force employees to "accept" these conditions...that seems like a perfect union situation to me. Sorry but the level of skill an employee has, has absolutely nothing to do with whether a union should exist. It is the imbalanced power of an employer to enforce conditions that are known to be physically or mentally unsafe upon employees that gives justification for unions to exist. Please don't perpetuate such a lie that skill has anything to do with whether a union should exist.

[jmm]

11. Here are a few sites with some info on Wal Mart

http://walmartwatch.com

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com

http://www.hel-mart.com/links.php

I have a sister who works for them. Between her and what I've read about Walmart it is not a good employer or corporation for many reasons (some of which ave already been summarized for you in this thread).

[cyberpj]

12. Walmart DVD is mind-blowing. Bravo to Robert Greenwald! MUST SEE.

http://www.walmartmovie.com/
Learn more about the film, watch the trailer, and own the DVD.

THE CRITICS ARE GLOWING! An "investigative outcry driven by stringent reporting rather than attitude." -Entertainment Weekly

"An engrossing, muckraking documentary ... but if you're expecting an angry diatribe, you're going to be disappointed." -LA Times

"By the final credits you may want to picket Sam Walton's grave." -Boston Globe

[primavera]

13. Where to begin?

The way they treat their employees is certainly a good place to start. They are famous for essentially bypassing minimum wage laws by coercing employees into working more hours than they get paid for, and threatening to fire them if they don't. They continuously scale back benefits such as health insurance, hiring people for the maximum number of hours they can get out of them under law without being required to start coughing up benefits. They delay the eligibility for benefits for years, knowing that their turnover is high, so they odds are they'll never actually have to pay out on benefits if they stall long enough before issuing them. When an employee commences employment at Mal-Wart, their Human Resources people automatically prepare food stamp applications, as all of their new employees - even though they're working - are guaranteed to fall below the poverty level and therefore qualify for welfare assistance. So, in a way, the public ends up paying higher prices indirectly, i.e., having to subsidize Mal-Wart's employees through taxes paid to support low income workers. And, of course, most famously, every attempt made by employees to organize themselves into unions to seek better treatment is instantly met by an incredibly vigorous legal onslaught to crush any effort to unionize. If the effort to squash the nascent union fails, Mal-Wart closes down the entire store and lays off everyone - problem solved, no more union.

By using these kinds of tactics, Mal-Wart is able to drastically lower their labor costs and can therefore offer goods cheaper than their competitors. In order to remain competitive, every other employer in the area now needs to mimic these draconian labor practices or go out of business. The Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration estimates that for every job created by a Mal-Wart moving into a community, it costs that community between three and five jobs, all of which paid better and offered benefits.

Mal-Wart plays the same games with their suppliers - who, of course, are not US workers, but are sweatshops in third world countries. Thanks to their size, Mal-Wart is able to exert enormous pressure on suppliers to provide cheap plastic crap for less than it costs elsewhere. So employers overseas providing Mal-Wart with the goods it sells now also have to cut corners: employee wages and benefits, child labor, workplace safety, environmental protection, anything that might up the cost of a good by even a penny has to be chucked.

In sum, Mal-Wart offers cheap goods by degrading worker conditions wordwide and compelling other employers to follow their shameful example in order to stay competitive. And that is why they should not be supported.

[shugah]

20. all the reasons already mentioned, plus

"dead peasants" insurance, even when they sold so-called made in america products, at least some of those products were made in a US commonwealth where fair wages and labor practices were not practiced, that thier milk comes from rBGH and antibiotic injected cows, irradiated meat (are they still "testing" that?), extremely anti-union...

the list really goes on and on.

[Strathos]

29. THANKS EVERYONE

I do agree that those are horrible situations, however, I come from a very small town with very little industry. Wal-Mart employs a lot of people, people that depend on Wal-Mart to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads. I'm sure there are MANY negatives, of which y'all have listed, but there are some postives too, so maybe being the good liberal I consider myself to be, I could write and do whatever else I can to let these people who run Wal-Mart I wish they'd be a little more concerned about their employees.

I do also think that no matter what, this is a business and as for the "Mom and Pop" stores, if they can't compete, is it really Wal-Mart's fault?

I've been to many stores that were owned by local people that had wonderful little things, gorgeous little things (AbFab reference), but I am a frugal shopper and if I find the same thing somewhere else for lots less, I'm buying it for less, not because the owners are wonderful people, which they might be, but those wonderful people aren't paying my bills.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

31. "if they can't compete, is it really Wal-Mart's fault?"

I'd say yes, due to the strong arm tactics employed by wm. MKJ

[athena]

56. Yeah. It's not exactly "competing" to force employees to get food stamps.

If the government weren't funded by corporations, it would regulate this sort of thing. It would heavily fine corporations for hiring illegal aliens, instead of erecting useless fences. It would increase the minimum wage to a reasonable level and fund education. It would fine Walmart for its illegal anti-union tactics. If the press were really free and did its job of informing the public, people would vote for politicians based on their own financial interests and living standards, not on gay marriage or abortion. Walmart would simply not be possible in a functional democracy with a truly free press.

[YOY]

34. When Wal-Mart can fuck up the supply-end YES it is!

When Wal-Mart can afford to take a loss so that the little guy closes doors then Wal-Mart raises prices YES it is!

When factories close in American because they can't afford to make things as cheaply as in China YES it is!

When Wal-Mart has the lobbying power to get to the ears of politicians relatively easy and the little guy cannot YES it is!

When we talk about Mom and Pop stores we're talking about small hardware stores, grocery stores, 5 and dimes, clothing stores, and electronic stores that flourish in small town America not little knickknack curio shops.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

36. Those are excellent points, YOY. We've been fighting the building

of a super wm in our neighborhood for over a year. The area where they would build has a lot of little private businesses (bakeries, clothing stores, non chain restaurants).

They'll be gone if wm goes up and none of them are "pricey". MKJ

[YOY]

40. How specifically have you managed to fight it?

What tools have you found effective in keeping them slowed down? Have you beeen effective, for that matter, in impeding them at all?

btw...love the Tom Servo...brings back memories of a show that was fantastic no matter how various networks ran it through the ringer.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

51. Here's the link to my post about this.

I was involved in completely stopping another wm near us, but that was because of the environmental impact. (wm was going to fill an existing small lake to make room for its parking lot...that was a huge no-go).

This wm though, well you can see for yourself. We did manage to collect enough signatures to over rule the city council decision. However, wm eked out a victory when it went to the ballot. We are still looking at other options.

http://www.no72ndavewalmart.com/

MKJ

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. Sorry, I only posted the link to the website, here's my post from last

spring.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=142&topic_id=4040

MKJ

[OKNancy]

38. You have to do what you have to do

to provide for the security of your family. Sometimes politics has to take a back seat if you're on a limited income. I know in my own family, I can afford to not shop at Wal_Mart and pay $10.00 to $20.00 dollars more per week for my groceries. My mother ( a 1940's Communist) can not. She must save her money so she decided that eating was more important that politics at this time in her life.

[Strathos]

44. Excellent point Nancy, EXCELLENT!

I think some on this forum forget about the real people, the poor people who need Wal-Mart. I am by no means saying they do everything correctly and do not approve of some of their actions, but my fight is a bigger one. I want to fight the stinking neo-cons and right wing religious nuts who want to run our lives, tell us who to worship and take our rights from us.

[primavera]

48. But it's a vicious downward cycle

People need cheap goods you say, because people have limited income. Fair enough, but why do people have limited income? Maybe because Mal-Wart depresses wages and compels its competitors to do the same or cease to be competitive. I've already posted this in this thread, but the Department of Labor has consistently found that, whenever a Mal-Wart enters a community, for every new job it creates, it costs the community between 3 and 5 jobs which were better paying and offered benefits. You say people need Mal-Wart for their jobs? What about the three to five other people who needed their jobs and lost them when Mal-Wart moved in? Do you not care about them? What about the workers over at Target or Best Buy who had to take pay cuts in order for their employers to be able to offer their goods at prices as low as Mal-Wart was offering their goods? You see, it's cyclical: the more Mal-Wart depresses wages, the more poor people there are who can't afford to pay anything other than rock-bottom discount prices, so they now have to - ironically - spend their few dollars at the place that made them poor in the first place. In other words, Mal-Wart is creating its own market of poor people. This is not good for your community. It is not increasing wages, standard of living, number of jobs, quite the contrary, Mal-Wart has a decidedly adverse effect on all of those in whichever community it enters. So great, save yourself a couple of bucks and buy your cheap plastic crap at Mal-Wart, but have no illusions, your decision to do so ultimately weakens your community's economic health.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

53. That's true, wm actually creates the dependency by eliminating any

other options.

As consumers, we have a powerful impact on retailers like wm. I happily pay a few cents more at any other retailer than wm, although I really don't see much cost difference from wm to Costco. And, in the process, I end up with higher quality goods.

We all have the choice, as consumers, to impact retailers. I choose to with hold my hard earned money from a predatory retailer. We can make a difference. MKJ

[Strathos]

61. I tend to care more of the whole than the one

In most cases, but you can not put this all on Wal-Mart. I agree that major corporations don't give a damn about anything but the bottom line, I was told this to my face by a "higher-up", that I didn't matter, what mattered was my numbers. I left the company, because I could and wouldn't tolerate such attitude. I'd rather dig ditches than work for people like that, BUT, I had that privilege and lots and lots of people don't. Until the government takes into its hands the plight of the American worker, corporations like Wal-Mart will get away with basically anything they want.

I shop at Wal-Mart, when its convenient, and I don't feel bad about it.

I also disagree that Wal-Mart weakens the community's economic health, usually when Wal-Mart comes to a town, bigger and better shopping malls appear and more choices.

Wal-Mart is not the bad guy, the United States and its ways of dealing with multi-billion dollar companies is.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

62. Since you think that "wal-mart is not the bad guy" and enjoy shopping

there, why did you ask for input from other DU'ers?

You seem to have a fixed opinion on the great merits of walmart, so why ask for other viewpoints?

MKJ

edited to add: walmart is also a huge supporter of the neocon fundies, at every level. Any money spent there enriches the repubs.

[primavera]

66. I'd like to second that question...

If your mind is made up to shop at Mal-Wart no matter how destructive their impact is, then why bother asking? If you're asking about this stuff, doesn't that imply that you're having some doubts about the place? Yet, if so, then why are you instantly discounting the reams and reams of damning material about Mal-Wart and the pretty much 100% consensus being offered in response to your question? :shrug:

[Strathos]

76. MKJ, why do you always seem suspicious?

I like to know others opinions, it helps me to know if I might be thinking too harshly or too emotionally.

You and I seem to be getting along, I just wish you'd stop looking for reasons to attack and being so suspicious of my actions. I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything every liberal agrees with, that's why they call it "liberal". Otherwise, I'd be a republican, because we all know they all think alike and that's a waste of brain power.

[primavera]

65. Oh, the system sucks, you're right about that

edited for spelling

The US is replete with instances of predatory corporations, of which Mal-Wart is but one. That's what unfettered capitalism accomplishes for a society and god knows, the repukes are all about deregulating capitalism to do its worst upon an unsuspecting society, so I agree with you that the problem is bigger than just Mal-Wart. And even as I refuse to shop at Mal-Wart, I also refuse to buy gas at Exxon-Mobil, I won't buy GE products, I cancelled my phone service with Verizon and switched to Working Assets, and so on and so on. There's no way to know of - much less avoid all of the products produced by - malignant companies, but you still try to do the best you can. But simply because there are other corporate viruses infecting the US doesn't let Mal-Wart off the hook. They are one of the most egregious examples of predatory business practices and, by virtue of their sheer size, exercise a far greater negative impact upon the US (and the world, for that matter) than most other businesses - which admittedly would be only too willing to wreak the same havoc if given half the chance - can begin to dream of.

You say that in your community, a shopping mall arose when Mal-Wart came to town. That's nice, I don't know anything about your town or its economic health, but I'm inclined to suspect that there's another side of the coin you're not perceiving. Unless the population of your community grew or the income levels of its population suddenly increased, consumer demand would have remained approximately the same. Some portion of that finite number of consumer spending dollars that previously were being spent at locally owned businesses are now being spent at Mal-Wart and the profits are going not to your community, but to the Walton family for them to use to buy another palace in Monaco. Those dollars are consequently no longer providing business for your local businesses, so it's pretty much a mathematical certainty that somebody, somewhere in your community is suffering hardship thanks to the introduction of the Mal-Wart. But again, I don't know the circumstances, maybe something happened your community which generated an infusion of wealth and the community now has more money to spend than it had before. But you can be certain it isn't Mal-Wart as Mal-Wart is neither a philanthropic entity which donates more money to communities than it takes out, nor is it an exporter of goods to other parts of the country/world which would result in an infusion of money coming from external exports. Your local Mal-Wart is not a buyer, not an exporter, not a producer; rather, it's a seller, and what it sells are not locally produced goods, so no money is flowing back into your local community, it's all going out of your community. Some of your community's consumer dollars are going to support the Chinese sweatshops which produced the goods, the rest is going straight into the Walton family's pockets.

Again, I don't know the full story of what's going on in your community, but unless you're a professional economist who has made a detailed study of Mal-Wart's impact on communities across the country, I'm still going to stick with the conclusions of those who are professional economists who have done such studies, the results of which have consistently demonstrated that Mal-Wart destroys jobs. And you're of course quite right, it's a free country and you're under no obligation to support progressive businesses who treat their employees decently. But if you're going to let convenience alone dictate where you shop, then don't pretend you don't know why the number of working poor is growing daily in this country, why wages are depressed, and why fewer and fewer people have health insurance: it's because you, and everyone else like you, have decided that your convenience is more important than workers being treated fairly. Again, that's your right; personally, I couldn't sleep at night knowing that about myself, but maybe you can. And if not, well hell, I'm sure Mal-Wart sells sleeping pills that will get you right past that little problem.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

68. As someone whose community is currently being threatened with

the building of a super wm that will most certainly decimate the scores of small businesses in the area, may I respond with:

:yourock: !

MKJ

[Strathos]

77. Very good points and thought provoking

I'll look into it and ask around. I would like to know if Wal-Mart caused any harm when building here. Our Wal-Mart is brand new by the way, and only because of the Wal-Mart have they started putting in restaurants and other shops. I live in a really nice area that is mostly upper middle class to the really wealthy, its just a nice place to live without having to worry about a lot of crime.

Thanks for your words and ideas. They have made me think and I'll definitely be looking into it.

We also just got a Target that built up around another shopping center, a new upscale mall is coming in 2007, so it's a huge economic boon in this area. I'm not gonna like all the traffic that's to come, but the property value going up is a really nice benefit.

[primavera]

70. FYI

Sweet Victory: Huge Win for Wal-Mart Workers
Katrina vanden Heuvel
The Nation - Fri Jan 6, 4:40 PM ET

<snip>

On December 22, a California jury ordered Wal-Mart to pay $172 million in damages to more than 100,000 current and former Wal-Mart workers, who had been unjustly and routinely denied meal breaks.

According to Fred Furth, the plaintiffs' lawyer, the retail behemoth violated California's strict mandatory meal break law 8 million times between January of 2001 and May of 2005.

"Sam Walton established a mantra: the store manager must every year increase sales and reduce labor costs. But that is an oxymoron--they're lowering the prices on the backs of the people who work for them," said Furth. "That is why I spent four months of my life at 71 years old making the point to corporate America that we are not in industrial England anymore. We're in the 21st century and these are good workplace rules, and you've got to obey them."

The California verdict could have a staggering impact on Wal-Mart, which is facing forty similar lawsuits in other states nationwide. "It absolutely sends a message to other juries," said Furth, "that even the biggest company in the world can be brought to task."

[Strathos]

78. well, if they don't treat their employees right, they deserve to

pay for it. The law states that for every 4 hours you work you get a 15 minute break, 6 hours a thirty minute break and 8 hours two 15 minute breaks and one 30 minute.

Just like the Abramoff thing, if you break the law you should pay for it.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

60. "the poor people who need Wal-Mart". My job puts me in contact with

indigent rural and urban people, none of whom I've ever seen as "needing" Wal-Mart.

Instead, they need decent jobs, competent, subsidized medical care, eductional opportunities and political representation.

MKJ

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

75. If you're shopping at wm you're enriching the very people you say

you want to fight.

MKJ

[athena]

55. Most people don't save money at Walmart.

First of all, any objective and systematic analysis reveals that they don't have the lowest prices. Costco, which pays its average worker twice what Walmart pays, has nearly identical prices. Second, nearly everyone who goes to Walmart for the "low prices" walks out carrying lots of unnecessary junk made in China. The way to save money is not by going to Walmart; it's by buying less. I'm a starving grad student, living in a very expensive city, and I manage to avoid shopping at Walmart.

[Fovea]

81. Let's not forget why she can't afford food

Your mother should have enough social security, medical coverage, etc. But Enron, Halliburton, KBR does not have to shop at Wally World.

And as the pretzeldent said, the tax cuts (for the rich) MUST be made permanent. Walmart destroys rural economies. Then it sells crap to the victims while it depresses the local wage structure. It very much reminds me of crack dealers, who make and control their markets in a similar manner.

[athena]

54. Walmart is not cheaper.

Studies have shown that Walmart does not offer the lowest prices. They usually have only one item in each category that's underpriced. That draws you in, gives you the impression that you're getting the lowest prices, and then you buy the item you really want, which is regularly priced, or possibly even overpriced.

Other analyses show that prices only have to go up a few cents to increase workers' wages. If you think that Walmart uses all its dirty tactics to lower prices for low-income people, then you're very naive. They could increase their wages significantly by and lowering their executives' wages somewhat.

One thing Walmart does that no one's mentioned yet is that it gets huge amounts of money from state and local governments in the form of subsidies and tax breaks. When Walmart decides to move into a town, it asks the town's government to provide "incentives" for it to move there. The local government almost always complies, thinking that it will benefit from the increased sales-tax income. In Cathedral City, CA, for example, part of the deal was that Walmart wouldn't pay sales taxes for ten years (meaning, the sales taxes that customers paid went into Walmart's pocket, not the government). Well, when the ten-year period was up, Walmart simply packed up and moved to the next town, Palm Desert, where it most likely made a similar deal. You can read about this and other examples here: http://goodjobsfirst.org/pdf/wmtstudy.pdf

Walmart also has been known to hire illegal aliens. And when people talk about the sex-discrimination law suit, they are referring to management meetings being held at Hooters restaurants or strip joints.

BTW, I'm a starving grad student, and I've never set foot in a Walmart. Go to Walmart only if you want to continue to earn low wages.

[athena]

57. They're also racist:

http://thoughtcrimes.org/s9/index.php?/archives/380-Racism-alive-and-well-at-your-neighborhood-Wal-Mart.html
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/12/03/business/news/20_48_5712_2_05.txt

[gulliver]

69. Big contributor to GOP

http://www.buyblue.org/node/2137/view/summary

[adigal]

15. Maybe people are getting the message

that their prices are so low because they tell their full-time employees to get food stamps, go on Medicaid, and get Section 8 housing. So that $3 sweatshirt really costs us $15.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

17. Shopping wm is becoming an ordeal for many. The parking is horrible,

the aisles are narrow and cluttered, the merchandise is cheaply made and the check out lines are slow and long.

I heard this from someone who was an avid wm shopper until about a year ago. When she told me that she was done shopping at wm, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it was because she had developed a social conscious, however, it was for the reasons mentioned above.

Whatever works. MKJ

[YOY]

18. Doubt it...

The poor (especially the rural poor) will continue to shop at Walmart due to lack of options... The only think that could set things right is some legislation that Walmart would have to follow that would help level the playing field and promote American manufacturers...

Don't see it happening anytime soon...

[zann725]

21. If EVEN Walmart sales slump, the retail/wholesale market is in BIG trouble

Walmart IS mid-America, is Nationwide. If IT downturns...

[Rainscents]

23. Should I feel sorry for them?

Nay,

[Bombero1956]

25. and yet

Target and Costco report better than expected sales during the holiday season. Maybe just maybe the American shopper is seeing the light and dumping Walmart.

[Jane Austin]

26. In addition to all the good points above, don't forget the effect WalMart'

bullying of producers has on local, independent businesses (like mine).

By paying manufacturers what they choose to pay and when they choose to pay (the rest of us get 30 days to pay or else) local businesses are at a huge disadvantage in pricing.

Meanwhile, WalMart grabs tax incentives, sales tax rebates, and other perks that Mom and Pop stores don't get. In fact, business utility rates are generally higher than other catagories and if you don't get negotiated breaks on those fees like WalMart does, small businesses are also paying a great deal more just to keep our doors open.

A small business like ours starts all employees considerably above minimum wage and above WalMart's wage. We offer fully-paid health insurance (Blue Cross) to all our employees. We pay time-and-a-half overtime with no monkeying around with time cards.

Small businesses sponsor foot races, Little League teams, nearby schools, and give generously to animal rescue groups and breed clubs. We allow (unpaid) time off for whatever our employees need - - dental appointments, probation appointments, sick aunts, uncles, parents and children, lunch with kids at school, relatives in town and so forth.

We pay full property, sales and franchise taxes to our local school board, city, county and state.

Our employees do not have to seek public health care or use food stamps - - at your expense.

There are so very many ways in which an independent local business is a good citizen and contributes to the community that a mega-corporation never does.

Please consider buying from independent businesses when you can - - and if they're Blue, even better!

[hatrack]

27. Crying here. Really, just crying and crying.

Poor, poor Wal-Mart! :puke:

[Rambis]

28. What do you get for being Wallyworld free for 3 years?

isn't there a chip or something?

Paul's discount Iowa City Iowa

[Deja Q]

32. If only they weren't part of the problem. Then I would feel pity.

:nopity:

[THUNDER HANDS]

33. maybe deceptive marketing hurt them too

on black friday, the store i work at advertised a laptop for $250.

At 5 a.m. there were over a 100 people waiting outside the store. They burst in, ran to the electronics section in the back...

...where there were all of 14...

yes, fourteen

laptops.

There were fistfights, there was screaming. The police were called. It was horrible.

I'm glad the store had a poor quarter. They deserve it. Cheap ass company.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

35. We were fighting the building of a wm in our neighborhood.

One of the statistics we presented to the city council was that a new super wm that opened several miles away had 292 calls for police in the first 90 days after it opened.

I can see why, with "bait and switch" tactics like this. MKJ

[durablend]

37. They were also fighting against one locally

WM has two stores in the county (one less than 2 miles away from the proposed site) and wanted to build a third one. There were numerous town meeting and residents were pretty much opposed to it. Didn't want more traffic, and didn't think they needed ANOTHER ONE so close to the others.

So what happened? It was APPROVED!

Me thinks ole Smiley bought off the mainly Republican city board (campaign contributions) in exchange for the approval. Can't prove it, but it definitely sounds logical.

[clspector]

50. The Big Lie of Low Prices

There was a Frontline on this week called, "Is Wal-Mart Good for America?" In addition to laying out the fact of their strong-arm tactics with producers and the dreadful manner with which they treat their employees, the show also revealed that Wal-Mart DOES NOT have the lowest prices.

Wal-Mart uses a technique called opening price point. This item is rock-bottom priced and designed to lure shoppers into a particular section of the store. The opening price point item is listed at an insanely low price. Most of the time, this item is NOT the item the buyer is looking for, but the bait lures the shopper into that department, where they think, "If this item cost is so low, then all the items in this department must be the best price." But the Wal-Mart price on other items are rarely the lowest price.

The cost of Wal-Mart goes far beyond closing local business. It's affecting the national economy. These are rapacious bastards who have no morals and sense of loyalty to this country. The only thing they care about is the bottom line and they are indifferent who they screw to get one more penny. If Teddy Roosevelt were alive today, he's horsewhip the entire upper management of Wal-Mart. Then he'd break their monopolistic back.

[susanna]

58. What a bummer.

Nah, not really. :-)

[GinaMaria]

67. Maybe all the lawsuits are cutting profits

In an industry that is practically lawsuit free, Walmart has an extremely high number of lawsuits against it.

American's do not like to feel bad about where they shop. Hopefully, Walmart has cut its own throat.

[primavera]

71. No, but they're quite ready to blind themselves

...to things that would tend to make them feel bad about where they shop, one need look no further than this very thread to find evidence of that.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

74. Kicking for the wealth of WM info in this thread and the novelty of a

DU'er who shops at WM and likes it. MKJ

:kick:

[Strathos]

79. That's me LOL

I like shopping there, but I also like Kroger, Publix, Target, the mall, and anywhere else that I might find something I like and not have to spend god awful amounts of money on it.