French youths speaking their own language

[rodeodance]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060105/ts_usatoday/frenchyouthsspeakingtheirownlanguage;_ylt=AmW8lb6e9XtbZ1Kwm42VJgus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
French youths speaking their own language

By Mary Papenfuss Special for, USA TODAY 1 hour, 58 minutes ago

Eli Cohen, a skinny 16-year-old from cozy central Paris, has little in common with the angry youths who torched their immigrant neighborhoods and fought police in scores of French cities in riots that started more than two months ago.

Except that he speaks their language, one that's incomprehensible to many French adults.

It's known as Verlan, a centuries-old French form of wordplay that has been reinvented in the bleak apartment blocks crowded with immigrant families from North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa. To the horror of France's language purists, the fast-morphing street slang is everywhere - schoolyards, newspapers, the Internet, movies, ad campaigns, TV and radio.......

[PRETZEL]

1. that's no different from here,

I can't for the love of me understand what my kids are trying to say to me half of the time either.

[patcox2]

2. Lowbrows love to believe their superiors are just like them.

Its a lovely aspect of american culture, along with anti-intellectualism and rudeness, americans just love little stories in which the moral is "see, the hoighty-toity french really ain't no better than you after all."

Peasant mentality.

[rodeodance]

4. actully it is a good article--the art of this language--used by immigrants

[Bridget Burke]

5. Ah, so we're peasants & the French are automatically our superiors?

Hardly. Both societies have their strong points & their weak points. And we can't single out any one person or group as representing their entire country. It's a bit more complicated.

The French once showed the world how to handle those who look down on "peasants."

[patcox2]

9. Excuse me, I should have said "uncultured boobs."

You are right, some cultures are good at some things, others at other things. Here in the US we have professional wrestling, sitcoms, country music, Big Macs, all kinds of things we are good at. In France, they have architecture, art, poetry, literature, cuisine, all kinds of things they are good at.

Sure, we have those things too, but thats not our culture. Our majority culture is profoundly anti-intellectual, thats why republicans are able to get so much mileage out of bashing the "cultural elites," and why they were able to bash Kerrey just by saying "he acts french."

In france, on the other hand, art, fine cuisine, and literature are more widespread, the newspapers devote space daily to topics such as philosophy and poetry.

And yes, the uncultured american resentment of the french is indeed a product of insecurity. People do tend to resent those who make them feel stupid or inadequate.

[IA_Seth]

15. How Patriotic of You

So we are good at getting dumb and fat, while the French are all healthy intellectuals?

You look down and espouse disdain for our culture and imply that the only things we are good at are fat and fluff. How sad.

Maybe you should get out and tour the US sometime, it might surprise you.

[patcox2]

25. I been everywhere, man.

I've been all over the US.

I love New York because its just like Paris. The people dress the same and act the same.

Strange to be attacked for being insufficiently patriotic here at DU.

[IA_Seth]

26. Even more strange?

To talk about how the US is such a terrible place.

Strange times indeed sir.

Lol, and as much as I have studied French Language and French culture (high school and college courses, and step-relatives in France, I am no expert by any means) and been to New York, I have yet to meet a French person who will say "get the fuck outta heay"

No attack intended.

[patcox2]

30. No, they would not say that.

But what they do say (if they say anything) will be enlightened by the same attitude and they will employ the same sneer when saying it.

[Matariki]

32. i think it was the faux aristocrat use of the word 'peasants'

tends to offend the idea of democracy

[Sanity Claws]

36. I thought I walked into GD by mistake

Some people never learn how to state a disagreement without getting vindictive, mean, and blowing things out of proportion.

[patcox2]

41. Vindictive? Mean? Moi?

Whatever do you mean?

Google "anti-intellectualism" and "US".

Its just the sad truth, here in the land of Nascar and people who walk around in public eating a turkey leg like they're Bluebeard the pirate or Attila the Hun, except they wash it down with a Super Big Gulp full of Mountain Dew. The land of the message T-shirt that says "I'm with stupid." That wonderful piece of entertainment known as "Cops."

As H.L. Mencken said, if you have an ounce of intelligence and taste, you cannot help but be endlessly amused by america.

[Matariki]

48. i watched german tv while i was staying in berlin

to help me with my language skills. it was JUST as stupid as american tv. believe me.

[JVS]

81. The only thing sadder than a culture that creates the sitcom ALF...

is a culture that imports and translates ALF. It is indicative of a spirit of cultural resignation.

[LiberteToujours]

53. What does it matter?

Who cares if people want to watch Nascar? Just think about it, why does it matter to you in any way whatsoever? Why not just enjoy the things you like and let others enjoy theirs?

[Ben Ceremos]

67. Salut et Accord, LiberteToujours!

We can live under several mottos, but "Liberte,Egalite,Fratenite" is a very nice one. ;)

(certainly preferrable to "regulé, insacré, uniformité"). Viva el pueblo!!!

[brentspeak]

59. Hmmm

There isn't a major or even minor metropolitan center in the United States that doesn't have art galleries, museums, classical symphonies, interesting and historical architecture, etc. Even in a lot of rural Small Town USA, you'll find people whose hobbies include painting, music, butterfly collecting, you name it. Texas, for example, is the home of the Van Cliburn piano competition, one of the most prestigious classical piano competitions in the world (named after Van Cliburn, a Texas native). And good country music, which you disdain, is just as valid a expression of a vibrant, national culture as is jazz -- and as French folk and cafe music.

I could go on and on, but I have a feeling that you already know all this, and that your intention was simply to start a flame war.

[Ben Ceremos]

68. Statistically speaking,

as far as "fine art/culture" is concerned, the US is actually more culturally active than Europe. It is estimated that in the US, museum visits, gallery visits and overall purchases of art are at about 2% of population. We Europeans can muster but 0.5% in these categories...draw your own conclusions. PS, isn't "arguing about culture" akin to "dancing about architecture"?

[ChoralScholar]

72. hmmm

>Nascar and people who walk around in public eating a turkey leg like they're Bluebeard the pirate or Attila the Hun, except they wash it down with a Super Big Gulp full of Mountain Dew. The land of the message T-shirt that says "I'm with stupid." That wonderful piece of entertainment known as "Cops."

I don't partake in any of those things. Surely theres a percentage of the population, like me, who also don't partake in them. That same segment of the population probably doesn't appreciate being maligned by blanket statements about Americans.

[northzax]

77. did you know, by the way

that 7 of the top 10 grossing movies in France in 2005 were, American? That the most populat TV shows in France are...American? Can you actually name a modern French architect? a modern painter? no?

Certainly France has culture, but it is also one of the most closed societies in the Western world. Why do you think all those riots happened? It is a society with almost no mobility between economic classes. Any society that places immigrants in a ghetto, and provides no opportunity, isn't all that great.

Did you know you can never become French? You can move there, live there, maybe get residency, maybe even, if you are really connected, citizenship, but you'll never be French You will always be an American living in France.

simply look at the hostility the French Establishment towards the evolution of the language. Don't lionize France until you've spent some real time there. It is a society with many of the same problems that every other society has, racism, sexism, cultural bigotry, xenophobia and others.

[Ben Ceremos]

66. Anti-intellectualism is recognized

by many as being one of the weaknesses of American culture. But I also add that cultural superiority is an oxymoron. Culture is the way people in a given region do what they do to live. What they eat, drink, cultivate, etc. Culture begins with the individual and their response to what already exists( I don't like cauliflower, I don't eat it...). Such notions of superiority are akin to claiming superiority of opinions over other opinions. Subjective in origin, opinion and culture both lack any authority except as practice. I respect your opinion because I choose to, not because your opinion is correct or factual. I participate in a variety of extrinsic cultural activities because I choose to, ie; I have a positive opinion about the possible quality of this participation. The entire logic behind multi-cultural education/exposure is that it enriches our lives to experience other "opinions", cultural ones that is. All cultures have something to offer to all humans, ergo, no culture is superior...corollary; All cultures need input from the extrinsic to be able to adapt to changing conditions.

[gtar100]

62. I think you're misunderstanding the point

I don't see him being down on America. It has to do with cultural identities. And whether you like or not, and whether it is true or not, America is known around the world for fatty food, fatty people, rude and obnoxious morons and self-serving self-aggrandizement.

I see this and I'm from Boulder, the capital of new-age spiritual health freaks wearing pyramids and carrying yoga mats, the antithesis of the above. It's all fish-eye lense perception. But go to Guatemala, Mexico City or the Phillipines and tell someone there you don't have money to burn and they'll probably think you're lying to them.

Long live the French!!! (and psssst.... they serve mayo for their french fries at McDonalds).

[blackhorse]

17. My take

"And yes, the uncultured american resentment of the french is indeed a product of insecurity. People do tend to resent those who make them feel stupid or inadequate."

While I tend to agree with this sentiment, I think there is perhaps something more sinister going on. I don't recall reading a lot about scathing American attitudes towards France after the First World War. Indeed, Paris was seen as a refuge for Americans with artistic talent during the 1920s.

The big anti-French wave seems to have come after the Second World War. The campaign of 1940 fuels a lot of Freepish horse-sh** about the French, but I think that is used only as a sort of convenient club. What, then, is the real source of the anti-French sentiment?

Ahh, yes, De Gaulle. Never a reticient politician, Charles de Gaulle is one of the few foreign postwar leaders to tell America to get bent, * and get away with it. * De Gaulle's rejection of America as undisputed World Cop is what I believe ignited a calculated American political campaign to trash the reputation of France and the French culture in the eyes of Americans.

Americans hear of de Gaulle's "perfidious" expulsion of U.S. forces from France in the 1960s. What is not so often pointed out to Americans is that the American handling of the Free French and De Gaulle in the Second World War was often imperious and designed to deny France a major role in postwar European affairs. Americans don't often hear about the Suez crisis of 1956, and how the U.S. sided with the U.S.S.R. in ordering France and the U.K. out of Egypt in what basically amounted to a humiliating public emasculation of both of America's former First and Second World War allies. Frankly, I'm kind of amazed that France didn't toss the U.S. out immediately in the wake of that affair.

Curious how the Freeps blow so much wind on the events of six weeks in 1940 ... and conveniently forget to mention how successfully the French forces of 1943 to 1945 fought in the Second World War. Seems to me the anti-French sentiment is likely a 1960s creation, but I may be mistaken.

A votre santé

BH

On edit: Grammar correction

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. I disagree.

In france, on the other hand, art, fine cuisine, and literature are more widespread

Mhmm... If you're skin is white, you're from the right area, and you have the right last name. Otherwise their culture couldn't give a flying fuck about you.

As for people taking joy when the French culture fails, This is a culture that has spent the past thirty years telling everyone that would listen that their social model is superior, who have derided upon the US/UK model only to have it blow up in their faces. And now we're not supposed to point out this failure? We're supposed to pretend that they didn't ignore the warning signs over many years? I hear a lot of people on DU talk about Europe, and especially France, as if it's some kind of socialist utopia and that's simply not the case for a lot of people who actually have to live here, who have no choice but to live here.

As for resentment, I don't have any against them. I just think their culture is fucked. They are also the only western nation since WWII that has managed to get itself involved directly in commiting genocide, and no amount of good food or poetry will right that wrong.


And yes, the uncultured american resentment of the french is indeed a product of insecurity. People do tend to resent those who make them feel stupid or inadequate.

Honestly, I think there's enough resentment to go around on both sides. You think the French don't resent the Americans? Or the English? Brooding resentment is a national pastime in France, much as it is in America.

[Ben Ceremos]

69. Let me get this straight...

"As for resentment, I don't have any against them. I just think their culture is fucked. They are also the only western nation since WWII that has managed to get itself involved directly in commiting genocide, and no amount of good food or poetry will right that wrong."


No resentment, just that they are fucked...? Comes off quite disingenuous.

As for the charge of genocide, most western nations have aided, abetted and instigated genocide in the post WW2 period.
Killing blacks in the South is genocide, murdering Timorese is genocide,bombing Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, is genocide, murdering Algerians and other North Africans in an urban pogrom is genocide, the Balkan conflict that led to some of the worst European bloodshed in decades is genocide, and I can only point out that American policy in Iraq is genocidal as well. Unfortunately, much of the West is based on vicious genocidal actions...Perhaps my explanation will help you see that no amount of baseball, barbecues or big cars will serve to right the wrongs that America has perpetrated either...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

71. Not at all.

No resentment, just that they are fucked...? Comes off quite disingenuous.

How does that work? I think cultures that believe in female genital mutilation are also fucked, but I've got no "resentment" against them.


As for the charge of genocide, most western nations have aided, abetted and instigated genocide in the post WW2 period.

Find me one other example of a Western nation participating in genocide as the French did in Rwanda. Your "superior" culture stands alone in this respect. And your definition of genocide is incorrect and not accepted by any prominent historian or student of international law.

[Matariki]

29. i live in a city FULL of theater and art and good restaurants

an american city. you are being narrow minded and seeing only what you want. you should go out to some plays and art shows before shooting off your mouth. It's a typical statement of (american) sophomoric pseudo-intellectuals that europe is automatically superior.

[patcox2]

31. No, its the statement of someone who has spent a lot of time in both place

Both places. That would be the US and France, and lots of places within each country.

I have seen a few shows, classical concerts, why, I have even been to a museum or two or three or four or ten, whatever, can you imagine that? Whatever makes you think I haven't?

The point is that the cute little simulacra of culture found mostly in university towns in the US is not in the mainstream of the US. The US mainstream is decidedly anti-intellectual and the majority of the population looks at those who read books and go to plays as un-american "cultural elites."

Oh, but if only I would watch "Cats" or "Rent" I would somehow have a better appreciation for the heights of american culture? You make me spew my coffee.

Thank god I am not in the mainstream.

Sophomoric? Thats cute. What might you mean by that? I don't admire Woody Allan movies, thats the most sophomoric thing I can think of, other than calling them films and saying I go to the cinema.

I am glad for you that you consider your city's restaurants and shows to be ever so sophisticated. Thats nice.

[Matariki]

33. you think you're going to find high culture in some French hillside town?

what you are talking about is urban vs. rural culture. i guess that explains the use of the word 'peasants'.

I've seen a lot of great theater here, and I don't mean Cats or Rent. You've got a chip on your shoulder and you're not out looking for Art or you'd have found it. What's the last novel you've read by an american author?

[patcox2]

39. You misunderstand me.

The last novel I read by an american author was David Foster Wallace's "Infinite Jest."

I do not and would not say America has no art, or that the quality of american art is lower than french or other european arts (with the single exception of architecture). We produce art at the highest levels.

I am saying that role that art plays in our culture is different. Those who appreciate the fine arts are much more of a minority in the US than in France. Yes there are french yahoos as there are american yahoos, its that the level of yahooism is lower there. The US is dominated by an actively anti-intellectual strain that is sort of associated with fundamentalism (in fact, do you see them teaching evolution or intelligent design in France?). If you are an intellectual in the US you are a minority. If you don't realize that you are in a bubble and are fortunate that your immediate surroundings are above the average for the US.

Without a doubt I will not find high art in a french hill village (I have spent most of my time in France in deepest darkest France, in fact, the poorer areas of Langedoc) but nevertheless the level of savoir-vivre, sophistication of living, will be immeasurably higher than in a lonely little hill country town in the US. There is a sense of the art of living itself everywhere I have been in France. Connoissuership, as it were, of the everyday things.

Most interesting place I have ever been was Narbonne (famous as the place where it was said "kill them all, god will know his own" during a massacre of cathars). Didn't mean to go there, was just wandering through. The Green Guide actually warned me off, said it was a provincial little town with nothing of interest to tourists.

Well, no, unless you are interested in art and history and architecture and the history of technology and shops I wish I could find within 100 miles of my home. In a provincial commercial center that the guides say are of no interest.

[Matariki]

45. I agree with what you're saying here

I went to college in Rome to study painting and art history. i noticed that there was a different appreciation of an artist's role in society, viewed with more admiration than the suspicion i sometimes encounter in america. I live in Seattle, which is admittedly a bit of a cultural bubble. There is great theater, music and occasionally visual arts here.

The thing i object to is a knee-jerk dismissal of american culture - and by culture i don't mean mc'donalds and strip malls, but the culture that came out of the blending of divergent cultures that is uniquely american, that gave birth to things like jazz and so forth. i LOVE that about american culture, it IS unique and we are a relatively young culture, developing our 'voice' as it were.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. France has McDonalds and strip malls, too.

And Marlboros are more popular than Gauloises these days.

[patcox2]

52. I am glad we're on the same page.

I have been influenced too much by Mencken and Paul Fussel, it makes me sound more arrogant than I am.

[blackhorse]

74. The Pays Cathar

... is indeed a wonderful region. I also visited a less famous tourist city, Perpignan. What a fine visit that was. Followed that with a drive along the small, winding roads to Montsegur. Climbed the incredibly steep hill ... and was alone for most of my visit to the ruin. That visit was hard on the spirit; thinking about what happened to the last band of Cathars there. And the hillsides dotted with ruins of Templar castles!

I think most of the readers of patcox2's comments will not fully comprehend the difference between Europe and the U.S. he is pointing out. One has to live among the Europeans for a while before the very different character of life in both cultures is really understood. I'm not sure how to say it, but somehow life in Europe seems ... firmer and more rooted, and less distracted by meaningless gadgets and corporate crapola. Perhaps it is just the long traditions in Europe that work this effect. And yes, the average person on the street seems to have more appreciation for culture. There are areas where it has been stamped on hard, like the gritty post-industrial areas in Lorraine or post-communist areas in eastern Europe, but these areas tend to be anomalies. At first glance, the U.S. appears to be the opposite - as I heard once described - outposts of civilization on the coasts with a vast sea of yee-hawing idiocy in between. That is a harsh description, but it is also not entirely untrue.

There *are* yahoos in Europe too, plenty of them. But somehow, the thrust of national culture in most European nations seems to ignore them and leave them, rightfully, as ignored oafs. This isn't happening in the U.S., and it is destroying America. The decades of yee-haw worship, sh**-kicking humor, and elevation of rednecks to the status of lovable folk heroes has made a hard core of willful ignorance in the U.S. grow so large and loud that it is now a force to be reckoned with. A survey of recent western history will indicate that Germany also went a phase somewhat like this in the 20s and 30s -- except their rednecks were called brown-shirts. No doubt we all know how the story ended, but reflect for a moment how many intellectual fruits were destroyed before those rednecks were finally brought to heel.

Cheers

BH

[Karenina]

75. Amis are ocean-locked monolinguists

and most will never get it as they don't travel far. Language is ORGANIC.

We had a heated discussion about language (particularly the French freaks) over turkey and fixin's in early Dezember. Not unusual, as language is the perpetual topic-du-jour at pubs and parties in this city.

Sky was defending French efforts to preserve their language. Christof took the position that language is ever-evolving. I had to line up with him as D'englisch, as much as I HATE the way it dumbs down the German language, is what I can manage. He challenged everyone to speak without using ANY. Sky was the first offender! We all laughed so hard.

My children first visited me at X-mas time the year I left. They spent 8 hours running around with the kids of a friend. By the end of the day they had made up their OWN LANGUAGE that the 4 of them understood. They were dissing us parental units, that much we could discern as they exchanged glances and words and all cracked up laughing, but whatever they said will forever remain their secret.

There's a school around the corner and I tell time by the voices under my window. The students have a German/Turkish dialect that is incompehensible to anyone fluent in either language or BOTH if over 20.

Americans miss out on SO MUCH FUN...

[blackhorse]

76. Karenina,

I think the disk jockeys of Germany are on a secret mission to spread the use of D'englisch! And, my, some of the graffiti I've seen about D'englisch ... rather unkind.

What drives me crazy is technology jargon. Even in the same field, concepts are reinvented repeatedly, and then given different names to "differentiate" them from each other.

One of the sad things I've seen with kids and languages is a couple I know who lives in Germany. They're both from other (and different) countries, but decided to speak only German with their child -- so that kid is now struggling to learn languages at school vice having three under his belt automatically had his parents just immersed him from birth forward.

Ach.

BH

[Seabiscuit]

82. Nice summation - have to agree here...

Unfortunately, every time anyone generalizes about something cultural on DU someone chimes in with specific exceptions and an argument ensues.

Also unfortunate is the truth behind the generalization (or characterization?) that the U.S. is marked by "outposts of civilization on the coasts with a vast sea of yee-hawing idiocy in between" whereas "(t)here *are* yahoos in Europe too, plenty of them. But somehow, the thrust of national culture in most European nations seems to ignore them and leave them, rightfully, as ignored oafs. This isn't happening in the U.S., and it is destroying America. The decades of yee-haw worship, sh**-kicking humor, and elevation of rednecks to the status of lovable folk heroes has made a hard core of willful ignorance in the U.S. grow so large and loud that it is now a force to be reckoned with."

Having lived extensively on both continents I'd have to say the cultural bar is much higher "over there". Sure, one can find outposts of civilized culture here but the level of "yee-hawing idiocy" is so prevalent here that anything cultured or intellectual is viewed by the McDonald's mass-culture-drenched majority as "effete" or "snobbish" and something to be resented and demeaned. That problem simply doesn't exist in Europe.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. "You make me spew my coffee."

Half-caf latte, no doubt. :)

[patcox2]

40. Nope.

Don't go for that crap. Hate starbucks.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. Of course.

Please, tell us about some other things you hate. I do so love a good rant.

[patcox2]

55. Lets see, I hate intolerance, bigotry, Friedman's free market theories

I am trying to remember what else gets me going. Fundamentalist efforts to turn this into a theocracy, right wing efforts to break down the spearation of church and state, I hate privatization. Friedman and the free-marketers, the Chicago School, thats high on my list, the rationaliztion of greed. The attacks on unions and Roosevelt's greatest program, Social Security. I hate the opposition to universal health care.

I hate censorship, I hate flag waving demagoguery. I hate unjustified war. I hate the selfishness and punitiveness of the prevailing american attitudes these days (screw the poor they're just lazy, fry the criminals, they are evil).

And I hate anti-french bigotry, and xenophobia, and most of all, I hate corn-pone good old fashioned "all the larnin I need is right here in the good book" "all them professors is fags, real americans don't mind the NSA spying" American anti-intellectualism.

That last one is a real example of one of the spins trotted out by the republicans after the NSA story broke, "its only those east coast academic elites who object, Real Americans don't mind President Bush doing what he needs to to protect us."

[manic expression]

64. Good choices!

I cannot stand "free market" fascism.

Everything else I agree with.

Also, your thing on Continental culture: I agree, to a point. The culture of the US is pretty shameful. However, the society of France is not to be admired. Their culture is quite impressive, but there are a ton of ills in France.

Oh, and that whole "French people are arrogant" thing? It is mostly Parisians that are arrogant, and you get that in LA, NYC and a host of cities around the world.

[patcox2]

56. And the "Blue Collar Comics," especially larry the cable guy.

Yuck. Don't get me started.

I hate how the basic premise of Saturday Night Live's humor has mutated from the 70s, when it was "I'm hip, I get it" to the present, when the basic equation is "whats up with that," essentially a proud ignorance, humor based on the notion "I don't understand it, so it must be stupid." Thats the triumph of anti-intellectualism in a nutshell. Colin Quinn versus Norm McDonald. Leno vs. Letterman.

[CTLawGuy]

83. I call it "Red State TV"

right before I change the channel.

[IA_Seth]

42. Ah, but if it were only coffee you were spewing.

Your contempt, arrogance, and simple-mindedness about American culture is disappointing. You claim to be some sort of world-traveled intellectual, but you refuse to see the beauty that is America.

It's a shame, but its your loss, not ours.

Peace be to those of peace.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patcox2]

54. And you are someone who makes personal attacks.

And also makes unwarranted assumptions about my knowledge and discernment.

I have never said French or other culture is superior. What I did say is that america is dominated by anti-intellectualism and it comes out in french-bashing.

The point is that anti-intellectualism is a distinct strain in american culture, that "art" and literature are viewed differently and have a different place in french culture than in ours. I am not some college kid who just read "A Movable Feast" and who thinks that the french all sit around the cafe all day arguing about Derrida and deconstructing the symbolist poets. I am pointing out a real and much commented-upon aspect of american culture.

You're comments, in fact, are a great example of american anti-intellectualism, the assumption that all intelectuality is false and worthless, the assumption that intellectuals are unpatriotic, its all there. The chest beating "we're as good as those damn frenchies, you psuedo-intellectual pantywaist" tone to your post. Good job.

[LiberteToujours]

49. I don't think so

I'm a Canadian living and working in Paris, today we all had McDonald's for lunch (MacDo as we call it here). :) People are people, to think that the French sit around all day thinking about philosophy, reading poetry and looking at art while dining on foie gras is absurd (-ly humourous). Don't you realize that you are propogating the same stereotype as the French-hating Americans? It's just that the stereotype appeals to you instead of repels you, but it's really no different.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

51. All you have to do is listen to French pop music.

That'll put you off any notion of cultural superiority. :)

[rinsd]

60. France loves Jerry Lewis....nuh said (nt)

[Flagg]

70. Another cliché.....nuh said (nt)

[patcox2]

73. They love "The Nutty Professor," and for good reason.

The movie is in fact a very serious exploration of exactly the topic at hand here, american anti-intellectualism, the intellectual professor vs. the boneheaded but macho lounge singer, with the approval of the women symbolizing the approval of the culture at large.

"Nuff said" is a great example of anti-intellectualism. It usually follows some simplistic bumper sticker-like slogan, like "Bush is getting it done - Nuff Said. Too much to hope for that you were being ironic.

[lanlady]

24. say what?

That wasn't the moral of this story at all.

[JVS]

79. Whatever sire

[xchrom]

3. language is a living thing.

and it goes through changes.

and youth ---- being alienated creatures in every culture -- will always individualize their way of communicating.

[alarcojon]

8. very true

any linguist will agree with you.

the french "authorities" are powerless to stop it.

[DavidDvorkin]

11. But less so in France

The English-speaking world has always been much more accepting of foreign words and a changing language. France has been fighting those trends officially for a long time.

[alarcojon]

12. Yes, they have been fighting change

but they can't stop it. At best they can slow it down.

[DavidDvorkin]

16. Increasing European integration must be speeding up the process

I have the impression that France was able to hold back the tide of language change relatively well for quite a while, but, along with the presence of a large immigrant population, they also now have the effect of increasing worker and, especially, youth mobility across Europe.

The latter element will just keep increasing. France might as well get rid of the Academie Francaise and accept, or even embrace, ever faster and more dramatic language change.

Of course, that's easy for me to say, as a native English speaker!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Increased European integration...

...has only increased the resolve of those who are attempting to retain elitist culture in France. A lot of those who endorse this sort of activity are not necessarily for European integration. At this point it's really inevitable, though. Europe will either unite and succeed or fail separately.

[rodeodance]

6. it is resistance form of language used by arab and non-which hip-hoppers.

Good for them.

.....The 20 nights of riots that began in October awakened France to the growing economic and social disparities created by a system that had prided itself on equality.

France's minority communities have become plagued by crime, joblessness, low education levels and other ills as a widening divide has left ethnic Algerians, Moroccans, Senegalese and others from immigrant backgrounds on the outside looking in.

Arab and non-white hip-hop artists from the gritty suburbs were first to articulate the rage building there - and the first to prophesy social explosion. They did it in lyrics laced with Verlan from the street.

Bring Pressure by the group Skar warns: "We're ready to make the problems explode."

[rodeodance]

7. French officials do not like this new language.

.......In France, "there are two ways to be heard," says Alain-Philippe Durand, author of a book on Francophone hip-hop culture and head of French studies at the University of Rhode Island. "You can do it the rough way, through violence, or you can do it through art."

French officials are not convinced that hip-hop performers such as Skar, Arsenik, Suprême NTM and Saïan Supa Crew have stayed on the artistic side of the line.

Members of Parliament have called for sanctions against several rappers they blame for fueling anger in the banlieues, or immigrant slums.

Last month, a French appeals court ruled in favor of Sniper, a group that had been charged with inciting violence with the anti-government anthem La France. The court concurred with a lower court judgment that Sniper's lyrics were violent but fell within the category of provocative artistic expression.....

[zanne]

10. I've been speaking that language all my life...

It's called French-Canadian!

[Bassic]

14. I didn't realize we were supposed to speak backwards!

Mais, bon.. je sais pas trop comment!

[Bridget Burke]

37. Come down to Louisiana & hear how French should REALLY be spoken!

Languages do change.

[Bassic]

13. And this is making news now?

Verlan has been popular in Paris for what, close to 20 years now?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Due to the riots, of course.

Part of an ongoing examination of immigrant culture in France. At least this article doesn't accuse them of all being terrorists.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. exactement...

:crazy:

[Bassic]

27. Je dirais même plus,

Sans équivoque!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

21. Verlan has been around a long time...

It's witty wordplay that requires a thorough familiarity with the French language. Virtually impossible for a non-native to understand.

Also, many Arabic words have entered the vernacular in France - remember, Arabic has been on the "street" there for about a century.

French hip-hop is 'the shit', man! Sharp political commentary fueled by wicked polyrythms, influenced by reggae and North African music, particularly.

As usual, the elite are way behind the curve...

[alarcojon]

23. The elite are indeed behind the curve once again

I'll drink to that!

:toast:

[NuttyFluffers]

58. you can say that again. love what i can get of it.

i'm trying to scrounge my SF area for french underground music, hip-hop, moody euro trash, etc. it's gonna be part of the next big thing. too bad most of my exposure has to be through 'net radio shows and college radio. needs me a set of tables and a gig...

[librechik]

28. A Clockwork Orange (the novel)

was written in a youth slanguage of the imaginary future. The future is now.

Fizzar Izzout!

[martymar64]

57. It was bastardized Russian

In Clockwork Orange, the slang was bastardized Russian, my Droogie. When you slooshy it, it gets into your golova, ask any devotchka!

[MisterP]

35. hopefully, "Rue Transnonain" will not enter the vocab overthe next decades

[henslee]

38. Example..... (I think) They would call the metro (subway) tro-met. nt

[dogfacedboy]

43. And what of Pig Latin ? n/t

[slackmaster]

47. Cabengo, padem manibadu peeta.

Doan nee bada tengkmatt, Poto.

[rocktivity]

61. Candidate for this month's "You Call This NEWS?" award

Yowza yowza yowza--Like, man, ALL youth generations come up with their own language-izzle as a means of separating from their parental units, especially if they feel opressed-ay, daddy-o!

:eyes:
rocknation

[Canuckistanian]

65. This is different

It's a more fundamental change in the language. See my post below.

[Canuckistanian]

63. Interesting socio-linguistic development

This isn't so much uneducated slang as it is linguistic revolt, albeit on a small scale.

And I'm not surprised it's happened. The academics have put a straight-jacket on almost any linguistic development in French, especially on foreign terms and expressions.

You think these "English-only" freaks down in Texas are extreme?

That's nothing compared to an indignant Parisian protesting the use of "le hot dog".

[MADem]

78. I guess the reason they are more "up in arms" about it has something

to do with the fact that they really do have "language police" perhaps?

We have private citizens and groups who whine about change, but they have a formal entity...and I guess that is why it is "news." The system is being challenged, and it has finally come to "their" attention, I guess...

[JVS]

80. Thus the Academe Francais has its excuse to start a reign of terror

:scared: